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wahdadli
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Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Tue May 15, 2012 6:50 pm

In the past here were rumors regarding Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica restarting transatlantic flights. Now I know the sold slots to BA but there are other destinations.

There were also a time when Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica were looking at the 777 and 787 for such routes.

Any word on what ever happened?
 
jfk777
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Tue May 15, 2012 6:56 pm

Caribean was leasing two 767 from Lan for Gatwick flights from Barbados and Trinidad.
 
toltommy
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Tue May 15, 2012 7:17 pm

They'd be better off focusing on codeshare agreements with longhaul carriers who can feed them traffic. They have next to no name recognition on the other side of the pond. They'll have be the lowest fare to attract traffic.
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wahdadli
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Tue May 15, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting toltommy (Reply 2):

They'd be better off focusing on codeshare agreements with longhaul carriers who can feed them traffic. They have next to no name recognition on the other side of the pond. They'll have be the lowest fare to attract traffic.

But as with the rest of their flights can it not be said that the bulk of their loads are "Caribbean Nationals"?

London has a large Caribbean population. Their flights in the past were always packed (at least the ones I did) across the pond were majority Caribbean nationals.

But will they be able to get slots?
 
marky
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Tue May 15, 2012 8:16 pm

Quoting wahdadli (Reply 3):
But will they be able to get slots?

They already have them, service starts on 14 June!

http://www.gatwickairport.com/busine...-flights-from-gatwick-to-trinidad/
 
wahdadli
Topic Author
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Tue May 15, 2012 9:12 pm

Quoting marky (Reply 4):
They already have them, service starts on 14 June!

After reading that link I went to their site its there indeed...

A quick check of fares and CAL is only slightly cheaper than VS and BA. but then CAL allows economy passengers two checked bags. So this could be a pull for us Caribbean folk that travel HEAVY... LOL...  

Will be interesting to see what the "Boeing 767-300ER aircraft with state-of-the-art cabins" are like. Is it really new or old LAN seats?
 
SCL767
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Tue May 15, 2012 9:22 pm

Quoting wahdadli (Reply 5):
Is it really new or old LAN seats?

LAN's a/c are maintained with the highest standards. LAN does not have "old seats" on its entire fleet of wide-body a/c.
LAN has a virtual tour feature of the B-763 a/c available on its website.
 
LimaFoxTango
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Tue May 15, 2012 10:31 pm

Quoting wahdadli (Reply 3):
But as with the rest of their flights can it not be said that the bulk of their loads are "Caribbean Nationals"?

London has a large Caribbean population. Their flights in the past were always packed (at least the ones I did) across the pond were majority Caribbean nationals.

That was back in BWIA days when the good ol' BW900 operated either thru ANU or BGI. This time around, their flight to LGW is 4X weekly from POS I believe with two of those passin thru BGI. Hardly any way to pick up any large amount of Caribbean nationals. With BA and VS already having a lion share of the market, I hardly see how BW can turn a profit with this. Head on over to the Caribbean Aviation thread.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
Baexecutive
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Tue May 15, 2012 10:34 pm

Just checked flights for both airlines, 4/8 to 8/8....BA is £29.90 more expensive in its World Traveller (economy) cabin.

Caribbean Airlines has very limited info on its inboard service/IFE however British Airways offers to its customers the following -

Complimentary food & drinks including alcohol
AVOD entertainment
Use of bassinets (not available on Caribbean)
No extra charge for transport of unaccompanied minors (Caribbean charge $100)
Access to Executive Club
Access to the British Airways global network
Gradual roll out of new World Traveller & World Traveller Plus seats/cabin & service

Personally I would rather pay the small amount if for nothing else but piece of mind.
 
guyanam
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Tue May 15, 2012 11:22 pm

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 8):

And these inflight amenities will be a major challenge for CAL which is accustomed to competing against US carriers who provide very basic services whcih are easy to beat. Will it be cost effective for CAL to upgrade the range of its IFE beyond that offered on its US routes. Passengers across the Atlantic do think these are important.

Maybe they will survive based on patriotic Trinis and POS/GEO based passengers attracted to them because of their FF miles programs. But then BAs integrates with AAs...Their nonstop to POS will also be quite attractive. Its the BGI LGW sector which seems more problematic for them....

[Edited 2012-05-15 16:23:33]
 
jet72uk
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Wed May 16, 2012 7:04 am

Having the choice betwen CAL or BA on the LGW-BGI route why on earth would anyone pick CAL?
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Wed May 16, 2012 7:12 am

Quoting wahdadli (Thread starter):

If you followed the Caribbean Aviation thread, you would have realized that this has been talked about for a while, the first 767 has already been painted:


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guyanam
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Wed May 16, 2012 7:12 pm

Quoting jet72uk (Reply 10):

Well BW flew that route (out of LHR but I doubt that matters) with BA and VS. Some folks like a warm friendly Caribbean atmosphere. BW will only be a niche carrier into BGI but then they will have passengers continuing on to POS and GEO. Maybe the route will operate 4X with 2X nonstop to POS. 767s will be released to YYZ/JFK as it doesnt look like LGW KIN is on the cards now.
 
BW985
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Wed May 16, 2012 7:21 pm

Many guys on this forum are very pessimistic about the success of Caribbean Airlines upcoming London route. I personally think they will not do as bad as everyone here seems to think. I know quite a few people who have already booked their flights and are very excited to fly with them.

Maybe people should look at the facts before making presumptions.

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 8):
"Just checked flights for both airlines, 4/8 to 8/8....BA is £29.90 more expensive in its World Traveller (economy) cabin."

Trinidad-London-Trinidad flights are about $200 cheaper than BA. A lot of UK based West Indians book with Caribbean specialist travel agencies where BW flights are usually around £150 cheaper than BA.

"Caribbean Airlines has very limited info on its inboard service/IFE however British Airways offers to its customers the following -

Complimentary food & drinks including alcohol"
As on any longhaul flight, there will be complimentary food and drinks on BW flights as well.  They might charge for alcoholic drinks, but that would not make anyone avoid an airline.

"AVOD entertainment"
There is AVOD entertainment on BW's flights as well, although the choice might not be as great.

"Use of bassinets (not available on Caribbean)"
They do not have bassinets at the moments as they are only operating 738s and ATRs. I am sure that the 767 will have bassinets. Even so... very few passengers are infants... 

"No extra charge for transport of unaccompanied minors (Caribbean charge $100)"
Even fewer passengers are unaccompanied minors...
Your information is actually incorrect, BA do charge for UMNR service, see http://www.britishairways.com/travel/childinfo/public/en_gb

"Access to Executive Club"
BW have their own frequent flyer program called Caribbean Miles on which it is much quicker to obtain free tickets than on Avios.

"Access to the British Airways global network"
True, BA does have a big global network from London -mostly from LHR, not LGW- but equally BW has connections in the Caribbean, most importantly to Guyana that BA does not have.

"Gradual roll out of new World Traveller & World Traveller Plus seats/cabin & service"
BA's World Traveller Plus is a good alternative for people who do not want to pay Club Class, something BW does not offer. However BW economy seats offer 32inch pitch, whereas BA only offers 31inches.

"Personally I would rather pay the small amount if for nothing else but piece of mind."

You probably have never flown with Caribbean Airlines. I have many times, their flights are very safe and punctual and their service is just as efficient as BA's, there's no reason to worry.  

BW985
 
GUYAIR707
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Wed May 16, 2012 8:42 pm

Hope they put the humming bird wings on the a/c before they begin service.

GUYAIR707

[Edited 2012-05-16 13:43:17]
 
guyanam
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Wed May 16, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting BW985 (Reply 13):

CAL stacks up well against AA and DL with their very basic amenities. Will they be competitive with BA with its higher quality of inflight service? The good thing is the routeinto POS will be mainly business so few kids clamoring for the full entertainment gadgetry that BA offers.

Still curious about BGI LGW. Is the VFR market large enough on this route.......noting of course that many of the older passengers will remain fiercely loyal to BA.Not sure that whatever remaining loyalty that BWIA once had in BGI has transferred over to CAL with its more limited network. For those Bajans who are FF miles senstitive BA with its AA tie in will keep them.


UK census surveys indicate that in 2001 UK residents born in the Caribbean were an average 55 y/o and had lived in the UK for 35 years. 11 years later (given little migration to the UK) these folks are now 66 y/o and have lived in the UK for 46 years. Many of these are people who left the Cbn as kids so dont necessarily have strong links, unless their parents retired there. People need to be careful about the UK VFR ,market whcih is now very very mature. Its very different from USA/Cda where migration ha sbeen more recent and mor
 
wahdadli
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Wed May 16, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 15):
CAL stacks up well against AA and DL with their very basic amenities. Will they be competitive with BA with its higher quality of inflight service? The good thing is the routeinto POS will be mainly business so few kids clamoring for the full entertainment gadgetry that BA offers.

I really do not understand the service thing with BA. There are sooo many submissions regarding BA 's inflight service. Their inflight service (personal wise) is nothing to write home about, frankly I find it cold, distant and robotic.

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 8):
Complimentary food & drinks including alcohol
AVOD entertainment

Food and drinks will be a given with BW.
AVOD we will just have to wait and see what is offered. Plus BMI and FirstChoice never had a great AVOD...

Use of bassinets (not available on Caribbean)
No extra charge for transport of unaccompanied minors (Caribbean charge $100)

Do not think this will be a game changer.

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 8):
Access to Executive Club

I never use it anyways...
 
jmbweeboy
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Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:38 am

RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Thu May 17, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting jet72uk (Reply 10):
Having the choice betwen CAL or BA on the LGW-BGI route why on earth would anyone pick CAL

Why ? Because I know how BA staff treat me when I fly Miami to London. I also know how CAL staff treat me when I fly Mia or FLL to Port of Spain. If I were flying this new route, no doubt CAL would be my choice without question.

It goes beyond the hard facts on paper for sure


JMBWEEBOY
 
jet72uk
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Thu May 17, 2012 5:15 pm

I was talking mainly from a safety point of view on a battered old 767. Yes BA operate 737, but I was in George Town a few months ago (never again) and saw the crashed CAL aircraft in the hanger.
 
sq_ek_freak
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Thu May 17, 2012 6:29 pm

Quoting jet72uk (Reply 18):
I was talking mainly from a safety point of view on a battered old 767.

I believe the 767 is being leased from LAN, BA's oneworld partner in South America.
Keep Discovering
 
airjamaica
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Thu May 17, 2012 6:40 pm

Quoting jet72uk (Reply 18):
I was talking mainly from a safety point of view on a battered old 767. Yes BA operate 737, but I was in George Town a few months ago (never again) and saw the crashed CAL aircraft in the hanger.

You will recall that AA had a similar incident in KIN in December 0f 2009. Also many major carriers had similar ( or worst ) mishaps in the past. I am certain BA have had their fair share of incidents as well in the past. The point I am trying to make is you can't declare an airline '' unsafe '' because of one incident. It could happen to any carrier. This kind of reasoning that you are articulating here is getting tired now.
airjamaica
 
guyanam
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Thu May 17, 2012 6:49 pm

Quoting jet72uk (Reply 18):

767 not battered. BA will have an advantage with IFE to the extent that this matters. They have a stronger brand in the UK and stronger FF miles. CAL will do OK on the LGW POS...the issue will be whether this will be large enough. BGI LGW is another matter. BA/VS have way stronger marketing in the UK and brand recognition/loyalty.

Dont under estimate "Caribbean warmth". There is aniche market for this even among UK travelers. BWIA used to do well enough on the LHR before its service deteriorated. While 6X might be too much goven a weak UK market 4X might work. 5X during peak periods.

[Edited 2012-05-17 12:21:33]
 
Inbound
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Thu May 17, 2012 9:45 pm

A couple pics of the LAN 767-300ER with the "777" interiors. Doesn't look that beaten up.


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Viscount724
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Thu May 17, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting airjamaica (Reply 20):
I am certain BA have had their fair share of incidents as well in the past.

In relation to their size there can't be many airlines with as good a safety record as BA. They haven't had a fatality in almost 36 years (Trident 3 mid-air collision with an Inex Adria DC-9 over Croatia in September 1976). That's not counting their British Airtours subsidiary 737-200 fire after landing at MAN in 1985. I'm not sure whether British Airtours used the BA operating certificate; if not, it would be considered a separate carrier.
 
wahdadli
Topic Author
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Thu May 17, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
In relation to their size there can't be many airlines with as good a safety record as BA. They haven't had a fatality in almost 36 years (Trident 3 mid-air collision with an Inex Adria DC-9 over Croatia in September 1976). That's not counting their British Airtours subsidiary 737-200 fire after landing at MAN in 1985. I'm not sure whether British Airtours used the BA operating certificate; if not, it would be considered a separate carrier.

I maybe wrong but has CAL or BW had any fatalities?

Quoting jmbweeboy (Reply 17):
Why ? Because I know how BA staff treat me when I fly Miami to London. I also know how CAL staff treat me when I fly Mia or FLL to Port of Spain. If I were flying this new route, no doubt CAL would be my choice without question.

It goes beyond the hard facts on paper for sure

Amen... business ANU-LGW (more times than i can count), MIA-LHR (more times than i want to remember), MCO-LON... as I have said before robotic, cold and distant.

That said I have not flown BW in a few years so I cannot speak to their level of service. but if its half of what it use to be it will be more than enough compared to the others on these routes.
 
N312RM
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:26 pm

RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Thu May 17, 2012 10:42 pm

I wish CAL all the best with the new route, they certainly deserve to succeed.

Here in GCM, we are served by BA to LHR with an intermediate stop in NAS with B763's. In the past month, I have flown their B772, B744 and B763 to and from LHR and I can tell you that the cabins were, without exception, looking very tired! And I was traveling business class. IFE wasn't working at my seat on one flight.

Personally, I would support the CAL flights if they were available through MBJ or KIN

i understand that BA will begin phasing out the B763's in 2014 as they take delivery of B788's. If true, it will mean that GCM and NAS will be upgraded to the B772 or B788.

By the way, does anyone know what CAL's two letter code is? BW still shows up as BWIA.
 
LimaFoxTango
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Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:33 pm

RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Thu May 17, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting N312RM (Reply 25):
By the way, does anyone know what CAL's two letter code is? BW still shows up as BWIA.

It's still BW. Unfortunately, airliners.net hasn't updated their database.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
airjamaica
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Thu May 17, 2012 11:55 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
In relation to their size there can't be many airlines with as good a safety record as BA. They haven't had a fatality in almost 36 years

Regardles. What was being implied in post # 18 is that the carrier is unsafe. On what was that assumption based ? The presence of the ill-fated B738 at the GEO hangar due to a mishap that could happen with any carrier ? As stated by others, the B763 that they are acquiring from LA is not '' old and battered ''. Should BA have a serious mishap with one of their aircraft tomorrow, should they be classified as an unsafe carrier ? Not having a fatality in 36 years doesn't mean it is impossible. Furthermore and as far as I know BW has never had a fatality either.
airjamaica
 
guyanam
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Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Fri May 18, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):

No one is saying that BA isnt safe but then BWIA/CAL has a strong record too, especially when one considers that many of the airports they serve didnt always have modern navigation equipment, GEO as an example. Indeed even their ONE accident had no fatalities, due maybe to the fact that the pilot knew GEO inside out so when there was an error quick measures to remediate were quickly implement. Note that GEO runway is short, had no proper navigation, so it left virtually no room for error. In fact if safety is a factor getting pilots who know their way around Cbn airports is a plus and many BW pilots already have done transatlantic from their BWIA days.

Quoting wahdadli (Reply 24):

The challenge isnt to get Cbn ppl to use them. All excpt for those with neocolonial mentalities (more than we want to think) will give them a shot. A big plus for CAL is that they arent like their But Will It Arrive predecessor though their ground subcontractors need better supervision.

Its the ability of CAL to pull away UK travelers that is in doubt. Cant help but note that when flights arrive in BGI from LGW hundreds of white faces and from JFK a heavy black group of passengers. Noted the same at ANU and you can comment on this. BW will ahve to build a brand image in the UK market and it has to distance istself from BWIA as their transatlantic service was horrendous in its last days. Maybe thats where the shabby planes comments comes from.


BW will have challenges on the LGW BGI. BAs cold robotic service might indeed be what most British travelers accept for cultural reasons even if we Cbn ppl dont. Fiddling away on BAs IFE gadgetry might be fine for them. Is it cost effective for BW to provide them?...For families it is a game changer (the "are we there yet" syndrom.), though for the business segment it wouldnt be. I dont know how big a factor BW is with the Bajan corporate crowd, given their weak network ex BGI (only KIN,POS.GEO). Clearly the UK execs will be BA all the way to BGI, and many of the tourists use FF miles no doubt, especialy as the APD is forcing the less upscale outt.

BW will do OK on the LGW POS but its not certain that the market is large enough to support two carriers. Maybe BA will leave again as a nonstop to LGW ex POS isnt an option with their larger planes. Time will tell and in any case they have already committed to this and so will have to figure out how to make it work.
 
guyanam
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Fri May 18, 2012 12:13 am

Quoting airjamaica (Reply 27):

Even the biggest critics of BWIA admitted that "Bwee safe". Late yes, lost baggage yes. Dangerous definitely not. CAL doesnt have the lateness image, and their planes are better kept.
 
GUYAIR707
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Fri May 18, 2012 1:30 am

Quoting airjamaica (Reply 27):

CAL has not had a fatality as far as I know. CAL will do fine on the LGW route in my opinion, the 763 is much more suited than the A343 they were using, and there is a fair contingent of VFR's and tourists that will use their service. I say this because I feel CAL has excellent service. In additon, all my relatives plan on using them LGW-GEO, where prior they had to go LHR-JFK-GEO, and the JFK-GEO sector was, you guessed it, CAL.

GUYAIR707
 
Baexecutive
Posts: 629
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RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Fri May 18, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting wahdadli (Reply 16):

The service with BA and standards are consistently high that is why when something goes wrong (it inevitably does) so many people feel let down and get frustrated as they have come to expect a certain level of service. Of course you as an individual are entitled to your own opinion howeverone only has to look at the awards and status of the carrier to make a judgement.

Perhaps you are not a frequent traveller and therefore do not need or use the benefits of the Executive Club/Oneworld however this is a major pull for business travellers.

In saying this I wish CAL all the best with this new route, time will tell if they are able to make a success of it.
 
BW424
Posts: 500
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:21 pm

RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Fri May 18, 2012 4:09 am

Quoting jet72uk (Reply 18):
I was talking mainly from a safety point of view on a battered old 767. Yes BA operate 737, but I was in George Town a few months ago (never again) and saw the crashed CAL aircraft in the hanger.

No amount of reasoning can explain such an irresponsible statement. You would think that in this online aviation environment, comments like these would be left to the ignorant person on the street who doesn't have the slightest plausible clue about the industry's dynamics. I guess I was wrong.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
In relation to their size there can't be many airlines with as good a safety record as BA.

Accident rate rather than accident count is one of the major components looked at to determine the relative safety of a carrier. Hence, no one should question the safety of BA. It's ludicrous. But the same applies to CAL, even though it's a smaller carrier.


It is great to hear of the support the LGW route is getting from various patrons (both on here and on the street), however, under the current political climate and major financial mess under which CAL now endures, the LGW route may have already started on a serious negative. The airline has little to no cash reserves left after the mass squander of US$150M by political appointees in less than 2 yrs. Therefore, there is no capital to cushion the expected short-term losses/ sunk costs from route start-up. Add to this the soft traffic demand from the Caribbean to the EU because of both regions' recessive economies and the UK's infamous APD tax. As it stands right now, the market will be somewhat flooded with LGW seats out of POS as BA's T7 service and BW's 763 service will inevitably be overkill. More than likely, one carrier will have to leave the route or significantly reduce its frequencies.
It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
 
guyanam
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Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Fri May 18, 2012 7:53 pm

Quoting BW424 (Reply 32):


Based on what you know of the POS LGW market.

1. How much of it originates in POS?

2. How many passengers/week do you think fly this route?

3. Is there a significant T&T VFR market out of the UK? I know its much smaller than the USA/Cda VFR to T&T. As GUYAIR says there is a LGW GEO group who wil be glad to use one airline all the way through rather than the changes (sometimes involving LIAT via BGI), or a long detour via JFK or MIA. This isnt a large though except at peak periods.

Maybe the route will survive based on seizing those who prefer the nonstop, plus support from TRinis. Maybe even a few UK businessmen (who would normally use BA), might hop on based on nostops. BAs T7 equipment are too big to do a POS LGW flight w/o that UVF stop to fill up. At the very least 4X should work with 3X nonstop, and a Sat stop in BGI in both directions.

I do share your concern about BGI LGW as CAL lacks the capital/expertise in building markets outsode of the CBn and VFR communities. It cant build on its BWIA legacy as you will recall the shabby condition of the 343s and the frequent service breakdowns killed them off in the tour operator sector.

In any case they have 2 767s and cant send them back now so may have to use them to JFK/YYZ if not fully utlized on the LGW. Their heavy use of wetleases during peak pertiods on the JFK route must be costing them.
 
wahdadli
Topic Author
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:16 am

RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Sat May 19, 2012 2:11 am

For clarification... I am Executive Platinum with AA and make at least 6 flights across the pond a year not to mention the numerous shorter trips to the USA. So yes I have a lot of experience with BA 's inflight service.
 
guyanam
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Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Sat May 19, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting wahdadli (Reply 34):

On your trips to the Uk what is the break down between VFR and regular leisure travelers?

BW is unlikely to get much of the leisure market (BA/VS are strong brands and dominate the distribution that is not handled by the charters) and the VFR market ex UK is not growing....probably shrinking.

As the Uk based Cbn population moves from the 2nd generation (who had Cbn born parents and so had ties back "home") to the 3rd generation, whose ties are all British, I can see more of the Cbn UK population, visting as leisure and not as VFR tourists.....a big difference is lack of any sentimentaility for Cbn goods and services. Remember that, aside from the Montserration volcano refugees, there has been relative little migration to the UK so the VFR markets arent as vibrant as those out of North America.


These are real challenges for CAL and as some one stated the sqndermania by Nicholas and his band of incompetents ha sleft them with little to spend on brand image building.
 
BW424
Posts: 500
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:21 pm

RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Sun May 20, 2012 3:28 am

Quoting guyanam (Reply 33):

As for the POS-London market, traffic is there, but I don't believe its enough to sustain a multiple weekly nonstop service. As stated, London was a longterm prospect. As for pax per week, I really cannot comment on that as I do not have hard factual numbers in front of me. If I were to guess, I'd have to say POS-LGW currently stands at around 90-120 PDEW (passengers daily each way).

As for VFR out of the UK, there is a sizeable bunch, however, the yields that sustains such a service come from business pax. Also, as stated earlier, the much to be desired condition of both regions' economies has stifled traffic. A lot of VFR choose to go via TAB on Monarch or VS as it's almost 50% cheaper!

That said, thank God it's a 767 rather than an egotistical 777. If LGW doesn't work out, it can be used on the high density routes to JFK and YYZ until it's five year lease is over.

I wish CAL all the best with this one knowing the circumstances under which it was birthed.
It is what we think we know already that prevents us from learning.......
 
A388
Posts: 8010
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Sun May 20, 2012 3:55 am

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 11):
If you followed the Caribbean Aviation thread, you would have realized that this has been talked about for a while, the first 767 has already been painted:

I don't understand this question wasn't asked in the Caribbean aviation thread. wahdadli has read the Caribbean aviation threads before but in any case, the questions have been answered...

A388
 
guyanam
Posts: 3076
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:21 pm

RE: Long-Haul For Caribbean Airlines/Air Jamaica

Sun May 20, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 37):

Maybe he wanted to focus on the London route. Its a big move for CAL and damaging if it doesnt work. 424 says loads are maybe 700-900 per week. Not good enough to sustain 2 airlines.

Is this another Nicholas disaster? The nonstops will need maybe 150 per flight and it doesnt look like POS can deliver this.

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