Frontier Airlines 6 Yr Old A318 N806FR Scrapped?

EK413 · Sun May 20, 2012 7:24 am

Hey All,

Was shocked to stumble across a photo of a Frontier Airlines A318 N806FR Humphrey the Bison scrapped only after being in service for 6 years...???

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Photo © A. Kwanten

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Photo © Royal S King

Anyone able to provide information on the early retirement of this young Airbus...

EK413

flyPBA · Sun May 20, 2012 7:37 am

A318s are worth more for the metal and parts than they are as an aircraft

EK413 · Sun May 20, 2012 7:59 am

Quoting flyPBA (Reply 1):
A318s are worth more for the metal and parts than they are as an aircraft

The aircraft was only 6 years old surely there was at least 5-10 years of service left in her....

EK413

kc135topboom · Sun May 20, 2012 9:31 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 2):
The aircraft was only 6 years old surely there was at least 5-10 years of service left in her....

Well, both the A-318 and B-736 proved to be uneconmical to operate, thus both airplane types see the scrapper sooner than their sisters.

777ER · Sun May 20, 2012 9:34 am

The A318 is sadly in the same field as the B732, B735 and B736. An aircraft too small to carry enough passengers during a period of high fuel bills/high CASM which simply makes it un-economical to operate

columba · Sun May 20, 2012 10:10 am

On the other hand the A318 is in some way succesful as a business airplane. There some goverments, VIPs etc... that still use 727s, 737-200s as a private airplane (don´t get me wrong I love to see them still around) but I wonder if a very cheap used A318 or 737-600 is not an alternative for them. At least they save on fuel and if they used a 727 before they only need two crew members.

EK413 · Sun May 20, 2012 10:21 am

Thanks your responses...

Truly is a very sad sight indeed...

EK413

gabo787 · Sun May 20, 2012 11:47 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
Well, both the A-318 and B-736 proved to be uneconmical to operate, thus both airplane types see the scrapper sooner than their sisters.

AV is quite happy with the A-318, AV operates 10 and AV Brazil 5. yes they got them second hand and probably very cheap, but still is making money with them.

NASCARAirforce · Sun May 20, 2012 12:14 pm

N810FR "Sheldon the Sea Turtle" A318 was scrapped more than a year ago and it was built in 2007, so it at the most only saw 4 years of service. I remember getting a picture of it Summer 2007 on delivery to MCO to get the Live TVs installed.

Fortunately Sheldon and Humphrey are flying again on A320s.

EK413 · Sun May 20, 2012 12:19 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 8):

I'm dumb founded... What's the price tag on a A318 / B735 / B736 vs scrapping...?

EK413

av757 · Sun May 20, 2012 1:48 pm

Basically the A318 are on a short term lease here at Avianca at a very advantageus low price per unit, giving AV very good cost savings operationally on a short notice thus making them the cheapest replacement for the F100´s now and not waiting for at least two years for availabilty and implementation of a new fleet of airplanes; since they now offer one less fleet for crew, maintenance, spare parts and handling.

Comonality is a major cost reduction in operation, offseting the higher operating cost of the A318´s lower CASM compared to their bigger brothers. It also gives the company passenger volume adaptation on certain routes according to available capacity.

These A318´s will evetually be replaced in time with A319/320´s, after their new replacement aircraft is chosen to enter service after 2016 in the short range 70 to 110 seat capacity.

Regards,
AV757

zanl188 · Sun May 20, 2012 2:20 pm

Why weren't these scrapped A318s sold on as business jets?

They would seem to be a steal compared to buying new. Or do the conversion cost & higher operating cost make them uneconomic?

lightsaber · Sun May 20, 2012 2:32 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 2):
Quoting flyPBA (Reply 1):
A318s are worth more for the metal and parts than they are as an aircraft

The aircraft was only 6 years old surely there was at least 5-10 years of service left in her....

EK413, the aircraft are still worth more as parts. At 6 years old, the plane would be due too soon for a D-check and thus has its resale price artificially dropped.

Heck, with the life extension underway, there is no reason the plane couldn't have served another 14 to 20 more years. But the economics are just not there. An E-195 would eat its lunch.

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 11):
Why weren't these scrapped A318s sold on as business jets?

Planes sell for their highest present value. To become a business jet, millions would have to be spent to add the plumbing for more fuel tanks plus a long time converting the aircraft.

Sadly, the planes are worth more as parts. We will see more scrapping if the C-series meets promise.

Lightsaber

Stitch · Sun May 20, 2012 2:41 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 9):
What's the price tag on a A318 / B735 / B736 vs scrapping...?

A 2003 delivery A318 is worth about $10 million. A 2006 delivery is $15 million.

A 1998 737-600 will set you back $7 million, while you can get a 2003 for $13 million (so the A318 is the cheaper option).

A 1990 737-500 is $2 million. You can get a 1996 for $5 million. Personally, I'd haggle to try and get the 737-600 for $6 million.

zanl188 · Sun May 20, 2012 2:55 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
To become a business jet, millions would have to be spent to add the plumbing for more fuel tanks plus a long time converting the aircraft.

This is also true for a new build......

qf002 · Sun May 20, 2012 3:08 pm

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 11):
Why weren't these scrapped A318s sold on as business jets?

Because there were no customers willing to pay as much as the airline would make from selling parts from the plane... It's not about the additional cost of conversion in this particular plane, it's about the fact that the airline makes more money (or rather, losses less money) scrapping the plane than selling it.

goosebayguy · Sun May 20, 2012 3:40 pm

There was a story int the Sunday Times a few weeks ago about a salvage company in the UK. The owner was saying that the economics had shanged where an aircraft which would have a life of say 20 years would now be more economical to scrap far earlier due to the price of spares. The scrap value of the Aluminium was surprisingly low.

A320FlyGuy · Sun May 20, 2012 3:42 pm

What I find surprising is that Airbus even shows the A318 as still being on offer....I can't recall the last time that Airbus sold one....the scrapping of the A318 isn't new news....Frontier has been scrapping the baby bus for quite sometime.....from a purely economical standpoint, it boggles the mind...especially when you consider that some DC-9-10s (which are roughly the same size from a passenger standpoint) were in service for 25-30 years.

B747forever · Sun May 20, 2012 3:50 pm

Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 17):
What I find surprising is that Airbus even shows the A318 as still being on offer....

Why is it surprising? It is part of the A320 family which is in production.

bueb0g · Sun May 20, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 17):
What I find surprising is that Airbus even shows the A318 as still being on offer.... I can't recall the last time that Airbus sold one

It's still got a (small) backlog of 7 planes for private customers. Sold those A318's to BA a couple years ago and they're looking at ordering more. They make a couple of private orders every year, so it's no real skin of Airbus's nose to offer it, even if it hardly sells.

SPREE34 · Sun May 20, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 12):
But the economics are just not there

And that is what makes airliners flyable or not. Everything else blue water.

krisyyz · Sun May 20, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
Well, both the A-318 and B-736 proved to be uneconmical to operate, thus both airplane types see the scrapper sooner than their sisters.

Even MA's 8 year old 736s went for scrapping after MA ceased ops. Apparently MA was trying to return the 736s to ILFC for the above-mentioned reasons.

KrisYYZ

strfyr51 · Sun May 20, 2012 5:04 pm

F9 Started with the A319 as their main airplane which in my poinion was TOO small an airplane. The A 319 is an addition airplane but for the main airplane to establish an airline?? not enough.. They had to open the door for the
A320 and they will prosper if not need the A321 in the near future..

Derik737 · Sun May 20, 2012 5:08 pm

Even 737-700's are being scrapped. Once again, worth more in parts than to put the airplane through the first heavy check (NG is 8 years). Not surprised at all to see an A318 being scrapped as well as there a lot of common parts for the family.

lightsaber · Sun May 20, 2012 5:45 pm

The cost of an aircraft is a small (~10%) part of the cost of flying.
Fuel is approaching 30% for highly utilized narrowbodies (less for lower utilization).

With recent lease returns (e.g., IT), there are a surplus of the more preferred aircraft being offered at competitive lease rates. At this juncture, leasing an A320 might make more money than flying a *free* A318.

It certainly is worth more if the A318 scrap value is recovered...

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 14):
This is also true for a new build......

cheaper to do the mods as the aircraft is put together.

Quoting Derik737 (Reply 23):
Even 737-700's are being scrapped. Once again, worth more in parts than to put the airplane through the first heavy check (NG is 8 years).

I'm not surprised. The resale market for the 73G and A319 is weak today. The A318 is extremely poor resale value.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 20):
And that is what makes airliners flyable or not. Everything else blue water.

These aren't horses. They are machines built for one purpose, to make money for their airline. The A318, sadly, didn't do that (except perhaps for BA).

Lightsaber

BLUESKY57 · Sun May 20, 2012 6:26 pm

A possible option would be for manufacturers and airlines to offer these low value aircraft to other airlines which are unable to afford the cost of new aircraft even though they might be more costly to operate. I'm thinking here mainly of 3rd world countries and other expanding airlines such as SAA who can utilize them on low desity routes or new destinations into other African countries to 'test' the routes and change them to the larger vesions later on if proven to be succesful. SAA would also be a very good candidate to take in the 'new' Kingfisher A340-500's which is apparently available very cheap in the market. The higher operating cost of these aircraft can be offset against the cheap aquisition costs of the aircraft. Just my thoughts on the subject.

Polot · Sun May 20, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting Bluesky57 (Reply 25):
A possible option would be for manufacturers and airlines to offer these low value aircraft to other airlines which are unable to afford the cost of new aircraft even though they might be more costly to operate.

The problem with that is Airbus or the airline usually don't actually own the aircraft in question, so they can't exactly dictate where they go.

Then you have the issue of who gets the aircraft. SAA's competitors, for example, might disagree that SAA is a growing airlines that deserves cheap airplanes, and looking at their (SAA's) fleet and route map you can't really blame them. Airbus might win SAA's business but lose a few other airlines in the process. DL is already mad about the ExIm loans that foreign airlines get, do you think they are going to be happy if Airbus supplies SAA with cheap A345s so that the airline can better compete against DL's nonstop service?

[Edited 2012-05-20 11:38:33]

BD500 · Sun May 20, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 17):
I can't recall the last time that Airbus sold one

According to planespotters.net, the last airliner that bought A318 was BA, for their LCY-JFK service.
However, since 2009, there as been a few of them built in the corporate jet configuration (ACJ).

http://www.planespotters.net/Production_List/Airbus/A318/index.php

Spacepope · Sun May 20, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 21):
Even MA's 8 year old 736s went for scrapping after MA ceased ops. Apparently MA was trying to return the 736s to ILFC for the above-mentioned reasons.

KrisYYZ

Just this week, OE-LNL was sent to the scrappers. Though it was built in 2000, it spent 2003-2009 with the US Navy (trainer for E-6 IIRC) so it is being retired after only 5-6 years of airline service. Probably has well under 20,000 hours on it.

Here she is without titles.

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Photo © Chris Jilli

Bobloblaw · Sun May 20, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting EK413 (Thread starter):
Was shocked to stumble across a photo of a Frontier Airlines A318 N806FR Humphrey the Bison scrapped only after being in service for 6 years...???

Quoting 777ER (Reply 4):
The A318 is sadly in the same field as the B732, B735 and B736.

Well not the B732 but the rest yes. Stretching a plane gives it life (763, 722, 733, 738, DC8-60s) etc. But shrinking it reduces it economical life. As you shrink a plane say by 20%, revenue falls 20% (maybe less if you have good PRM dept) but total costs dont fall hardly at all, so CASM shoots up.

GentFromAlaska · Sun May 20, 2012 8:09 pm

Quoting flyPBA (Reply 1):
A318s are worth more for the metal and parts than they are as an aircraft

Possibly the intent was to cannibalize one airframe for spare parts to keep several others flying. The military does this often especially when spare parts are hard to find. This is usually an airline specific internal decision with the manufactures in this case Airbus blessing.

co38 · Sun May 20, 2012 9:53 pm

Does anyone know how many 736 that have gone to the scrapper?
Its unbelievable that no VIP 732 operators have not snapped up those planes for a replacement. They are appareantly very cheap ($7mill) and are 2 generations newer.

EXMEMWIDGET · Sun May 20, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 18):

Why is it surprising? It is part of the A320 family which is in production.

Because it's very strange that a company is still offering an aircraft that has no useful flying value just 6 years out of the factory.

[Edited 2012-05-20 15:00:23]

aztrainer · Sun May 20, 2012 10:34 pm

Were these also in Denver when they had the hail storm and became damaged so bad that Frontier decided not to fix them? Or am I thinking of different planes..

kc135topboom · Sun May 20, 2012 10:48 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 18):
Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 17):What I find surprising is that Airbus even shows the A318 as still being on offer....
Why is it surprising? It is part of the A320 family which is in production.

The B-737-600 is part of the B-737NG family, but I don't think Boeing is offering it for sale right now, not even as a BBJ.

Quoting Derik737 (Reply 23):
Even 737-700's are being scrapped.

Correct, as are some A-319s.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
The resale market for the 73G and A319 is weak today. The A318 is extremely poor resale value.

The sales value has little to do with it if they are worth more in parts.

For the A-318 and A-319 there is no P2F conversion offered. There is one for the B-737-700, or at least converting it into a combi. I believe that Boeing also still offers the B-737-700C. They are still building some for the USN as the C-40A.

After parts have been remarketed from a B-736/G or an A-318/319, there is very little value in the scrapped materials that are left.

lightsaber · Sun May 20, 2012 11:08 pm

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 21):
Even MA's 8 year old 736s went for scrapping after MA ceased ops. Apparently MA was trying to return the 736s to ILFC for the above-mentioned reasons.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):
The sales value has little to do with it if they are worth more in parts.

But if resale value is good, then it is unlikely the scrapping yard will offer the highest bid for the type.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):
For the A-318 and A-319 there is no P2F conversion offered.

Out of curiosity, is there an A320P2F?
What value are 737-700 P2F hulls selling for prior to conversion?

Actually, what is the scrap value of an A318 or 736 that is say 5 to 7 years old?

Lightsaber

Viscount724 · Sun May 20, 2012 11:10 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):
Quoting B747forever (Reply 18):
Quoting A320FlyGuy (Reply 17):What I find surprising is that Airbus even shows the A318 as still being on offer....
Why is it surprising? It is part of the A320 family which is in production.

The B-737-600 is part of the B-737NG family, but I don't think Boeing is offering it for sale right now, not even as a BBJ.

Boeing still shows the 736 as available and includes prices on their website, but the last 736 order was almost 7 years ago in August 2005 when WestJet ordered the last 5 of their 13 736s. The last of those was delivered in September 2006. Prior to the WS orders in 2004/2005, no 736s had been ordered since 1999.

Stitch · Sun May 20, 2012 11:12 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 35):
Out of curiosity, is there an A320P2F?

Plans were put on hold last summer due to lack of feed stock.

4tet · Sun May 20, 2012 11:16 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
A 2003 delivery A318 is worth about $10 million. A 2006 delivery is $15 million.

A 1998 737-600 will set you back $7 million, while you can get a 2003 for $13 million (so the A318 is the cheaper option).

A 1990 737-500 is $2 million. You can get a 1996 for $5 million. Personally, I'd haggle to try and get the 737-600 for $6 million.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 19):
It's still got a (small) backlog of 7 planes for private customers. Sold those A318's to BA a couple years ago and they're looking at ordering more. They make a couple of private orders every year, so it's no real skin of Airbus's nose to offer it, even if it hardly sells.

What I do find impressing is that the 'owners' of those 7 units in backlog (supposed to be VIP config.) don't go for a second hand A318, plus some refurbishment... I'm not really into costs but, a new A318 list price is around $55M, if used ones are selling for around $15M, you still have around $40M for refurbishment and heavy checks...

That makes me think that those units are being sold far low from the list price!

Anyone knows which is the 'flyaway cost' or 'marginal cost' of those planes ( A31X, A32X and B73X) ?? This is a doubt I've always have had... And would be very happy if someone can answer me...!!

Thanks,
R.

Spacepope · Sun May 20, 2012 11:17 pm

Quoting co38 (Reply 31):
Does anyone know how many 736 that have gone to the scrapper?

I'm sure someone can check the records, but I'd say somewhere around 8-10 have or shortly will meet the axe. All the Malev ones are or will be gone, the Austrian one, an ex-SAS and a Tunisair? one...

cargolex · Sun May 20, 2012 11:43 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):
There is one for the B-737-700, or at least converting it into a combi.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 35):
What value are 737-700 P2F hulls selling for prior to conversion?

There is no STC for any 737NG conversion - yet - so you can't get a 737-700 P2F. But even when there is, the 736 won't be part of that program - low feed stock, too small, same poor economics - nobody will develop a program for it.

Boeing does offer a new-build 737QC, but very few people want such a plane and of the handful delivered (it is by far the least popular version of the 737NG), most have gone to the government and none are in airline service as regular passenger planes.

It is also deeply unlikely that the A318 or A319 will ever have conversions offered.

Right now, if you want a narrowbody conversion, you only have three choices - 733, 734, 757. Very soon, you'll be able to get an MD-80SF. I suppose that if you wanted, you could also still have a 727 converted, but few would choose to.

jreuschl · Mon May 21, 2012 2:03 am

Who made the decision to order these in the first place? Is an A319 that much more it wasn't an option?

mcg · Mon May 21, 2012 2:31 am

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 41):
Who made the decision to order these in the first place? Is an A319 that much more it wasn't an option?

Back in the day Airbus made F9 an offer they couldn't refuse to be the launch customer on the 318. Ten or so years later the airline was acquired by a new owner and has gone through a couple management changes and the aircraft are no longer needed.

Scraper offered the most money, that's why they are being scrapped rather than operated.

Devilfish · Mon May 21, 2012 2:43 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
At this juncture, leasing an A320 might make more money than flying a *free* A318.

True (checks, upkeep, capacity and range).....maybe a bit less for an occasionally flown VIP jet?

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):

cheaper to do the mods as the aircraft is put together.

But then you pay the "new" sale price.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):
They are machines built for one purpose, to make money for their airline. The A318, sadly, didn't do that (except perhaps for BA).

Good or otherwise, governments do not seem too concerned about saving money (appearances notwithstanding).

Quoting 4tet (Reply 38):
That makes me think that those units are being sold far low from the list price!

You're not saying.....??

.

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 39):
I'm sure someone can check the records, but I'd say somewhere around 8-10 have or shortly will meet the axe. All the Malev ones are or will be gone, the Austrian one, an ex-SAS and a Tunisair? one...

Apparently, JANET had gotten all the 736s it needed.

boeingorbust · Mon May 21, 2012 3:27 am

WS continues to be profitable with them although I'm sure most of the money making comes from the 377's and 378's. They did cancel their order for winglets as they were to be the launch customer. The fact that they're not putting them on makes me wonder how long WS will hold onto them.

yvphx · Mon May 21, 2012 3:59 am

I was out at GYR the other day, and there are at least 3 ex-Frontier birds out there. An A320, A319 for certain, and possibly another A319 or A318. Its sad to see these birds go, however it really is a great sight to see all the heavy's out there along side their counter-parts.

lightsaber · Mon May 21, 2012 4:48 am

Quoting cargolex (Reply 40):
There is no STC for any 737NG conversion - yet

Thanks. I suspect we'll see it within 10 years though.

Quoting cargolex (Reply 40):
It is also deeply unlikely that the A318 or A319 will ever have conversions offered.

I would agree. I would be surprised if there wasn't an A320/A321 conversion at some time though. Same with the 738. I'm not as certain about the 739, I'll have to think about that length for a bit... I would also expect a 73G conversion to happen. All dependent on 'feed stock' values.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 43):
maybe a bit less for an occasionally flown VIP jet?

There is a case for the A318 jet today. I'm not sure about the A319NEO. At that point, I couldn't see any more A318s sell. (Even if an A318NEO happened, which I *really* doubt will happen.)

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 43):
governments do not seem too concerned about saving money (appearances notwithstanding).

I'm shocked I tell you, shocked.

Lightsaber

Stitch · Mon May 21, 2012 5:33 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 46):
There is a case for the A318 jet today. I'm not sure about the A319NEO. At that point, I couldn't see any more A318s sell. (Even if an A318NEO happened, which I *really* doubt will happen.)

Airbus and Boeing have both pretty much confirmed there will be no new engine option for the A318-100 and 737-600.

bennett123 · Mon May 21, 2012 6:48 am

c038

There was also SU-MWC of MidWest AL at Kemble.

Spacepope · Mon May 21, 2012 1:14 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 48):
c038

There was also SU-MWC of MidWest AL at Kemble.

That is the former SAS bird I was thinking about, I believe. My mistake.

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