Air Canada 777 Uncontained Engine Failure?

Plainplane · Mon May 28, 2012 9:31 pm

CNN is reporting that Air Canada flight 1, a 777, made an emergency landing back in Toronto after an engine failure. There are reports that debris from the engine has smashed into the ground causing damage to cars and buildings and an investigation has been launched.

Here is a news story.

GRIVely · Mon May 28, 2012 9:42 pm

Any information on the engine maker?

krisyyz · Mon May 28, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 1):
Any information on the engine maker?

All B77Ws and 77Ls are equipped with GE90s. AC has the -115 (BL) on the Ws and the -110s on the -200LRs.

KrisYYZ

declarets · Mon May 28, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 1):

They have GE Engines

philipkk · Mon May 28, 2012 10:01 pm

There are a few pics and a video report
http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20120528/051812_plane_debris/20120528/?hub=CP24Home

Ncfc99 · Mon May 28, 2012 10:09 pm

Have there been previous uncontained failures of GE90'S?

krisyyz · Mon May 28, 2012 10:19 pm

According to AC's website, AC001 is now scheduled to arrive at NRT 0536 (May 29).

Quoting philipkk (Reply 4):
There are a few pics and a video report
http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local...4Home

I hope they hand those pieces over to the (C)TSB .

KrisYYZ

Scooter01 · Mon May 28, 2012 11:35 pm

This thread was started earlier:
Cyyz Runway 23 Shutdown (by kl692 May 28 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Scooter01

JAGflyer · Tue May 29, 2012 12:07 am

The top piece in the photo from the CP24 website looks like a turbine blade from one of the lower stages of the engine. The bluish tinge leads me to believe it was in a high-temp area, much like the internal combustion stages.

AirCanada787 · Tue May 29, 2012 12:12 am

An updated story from CBC. The passengers will overnight in Toronto and depart on a new flight tomorrow.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...nto-pearson-emergency-landing.html

connies4ever · Tue May 29, 2012 12:16 am

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 8):
The top piece in the photo from the CP24 website looks like a turbine blade from one of the lower stages of the engine. The bluish tinge leads me to believe it was in a high-temp area, much like the internal combustion stages.

My initial impression was a turbine blade or blades, likely from the HP turbine, got shed and exited the back end. GE90s I believe have passed the goose test.

virgin747 · Tue May 29, 2012 12:18 am

I guess the question is how long is AC going to be down an Airplane (not to mention a valuable one) till GE can come down and scratch their heads, then finally decide on sending down a new engine to put on. Then do the actual act of replacing said engine. From experience, I can tell you being down an airplane like that is a pain in the you know what...

par13del · Tue May 29, 2012 12:18 am

To us non-techies, uncontained failure does that mean not contained within the engine or a puncture of the fuselage?

kl692 · Tue May 29, 2012 12:31 am

Just got back from the airport, I have video of the A/C taxing to gate on Youtube. not the greatest video I have done but it is something. the first 10 sec is not that great

http://youtu.be/NIoYzZdYp40

[Edited 2012-05-28 17:36:58]

B757Forever · Tue May 29, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 12):
To us non-techies, uncontained failure does that mean not contained within the engine or a puncture of the fuselage?

My understanding has always been that an uncontained failure would describe a situation in which parts exited the engine by puncturing through the engine case or containment ring. True uncontained failures are rare. I suspect when the analysis is done, this AC incident will be declared a contained failure, as the parts most likely exited the tailpipe.

YOWVIEWER · Tue May 29, 2012 12:51 am

Just curious, a Toronto to Narita 777 would have a full fuel load on board and this occurred just after takeoff . How would they get it back down on the ground so quickly without blowing some tires ?

ANM604 · Tue May 29, 2012 12:53 am

Great work by the flight crew bringing her back in one piece!

Quoting virgin747 (Reply 11):
I guess the question is how long is AC going to be down an Airplane (not to mention a valuable one)

This is about the worst thing that could happen to AC right now, the entire fleet but especially the 777's are running to the wall as it is. This is probably going to have a ripple effect down the line, and depending on how long it's out for there might be some immediate down gauges on some flights. Fingers crossed it is just the engine, and GE/AC can get a new one in ASAP. Thankfully they got it back to YYZ, and not some small airport elsewhere.

Quoting par13del (Reply 12):
Uncontained failure does that mean not contained within the engine or a puncture of the fuselage?

It means that pieces have exited the engines, but it does not necessarily mean the fuselage/wings have been punctured by the expelled debris.

kl692 · Tue May 29, 2012 12:58 am

Quoting YOWVIEWER (Reply 15):
Just curious, a Toronto to Narita 777 would have a full fuel load on board and this occurred just after takeoff . How would they get it back down on the ground so quickly without blowing some tires ?

They did a fuel dump, the A/C must have return after an hour or so.

traindoc · Tue May 29, 2012 1:11 am

To kl692,,

Great video in real time! Quite an entourage of emergency vehicles close behind as the A/C taxis to the terminal. Both engine nacelles look intact which favors a contained failure. But we need to see the engines and fuselage close up before coming to a more definitive conclusion.

This is not the first 777 to have engine failure on/after take off. Several years ago, CO 9, EWR to NRT had an engine failure on take off and had to do an emergency return. This was a contained failure.

lightsaber · Tue May 29, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 8):
The bluish tinge leads me to believe it was in a high-temp area, much like the internal combustion stages.

Quoting B757forever (Reply 14):
My understanding has always been that an uncontained failure would describe a situation in which parts exited the engine by puncturing through the engine case or containment ring.

Any parts that go out the nozzles are a 'contained failure.'

Quoting virgin747 (Reply 11):
I guess the question is how long is AC going to be down an Airplane (not to mention a valuable one) till GE can come down and scratch their heads, then finally decide on sending down a new engine to put on.

I doubt there will be a delay. The engine should already be on its way (if not half way to on the wing) with a new nacelle. The will need to pull fuel filters and sample aircraft fuel. The rest will be pulled and inspected off aircraft. The issue is the holiday weekend. Unless aircraft structure was damaged, the aircraft should fly within a week. The engine? It will be torn apart and studied in detail for a long time. Someone owes AC a new engine... even if its AC itself.

Lightsaber

ltbewr · Tue May 29, 2012 1:59 am

Of course one has to wonder how this major failure happened. Could bird ingestion be a factor or is this some mx or original part flaw that was missed? I also wonder if their is some flaw in this GE engine series as there has been several major engine failures of them used on 777's.

Just be glad no one was injured or killed, just some replaceable damage, most likely covered by insurance.

krisyyz · Tue May 29, 2012 2:05 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
Any parts that go out the nozzles are a 'contained failure.'

Appreciate the clarification..

Quoting kl692 (Reply 13):
Just got back from the airport, I have video of the A/C taxing to gate on Youtube. not the greatest video I have done but it is something. the first 10 sec is not that great

http://youtu.be/NIoYzZdYp40

Thanks for posting this!

KrisYYZ

krisyyz · Tue May 29, 2012 2:18 am

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
This is about the worst thing that could happen to AC right now, the entire fleet but especially the 777's are running to the wall as it is. This is probably going to have a ripple effect down the line, and depending on how long it's out for there might be some immediate down gauges on some flights. Fingers crossed it is just the engine, and GE/AC can get a new one in ASAP. Thankfully they got it back to YYZ, and not some small airport elsewhere.

If not a single 777 is available and C-FITW is non-operational for an extended period, does AC have any 763s to take over 001 for a while? Or would they rather pull a 777 from somewhere else? YYZ-NRT was operated by a 763 prior to the T7s, no?

KrisYYZ

jporterfi · Tue May 29, 2012 3:17 am

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
This is about the worst thing that could happen to AC right now, the entire fleet but especially the 777's are running to the wall as it is.

Indeed it is. I was just discussing it on this thread: Air Canada Oddball Heathrow Movements

I hope this doesn't cause any more delayed flights like the mess at Heathrow!

threepoint · Tue May 29, 2012 3:25 am

Quoting philipkk (Reply 4):
There are a few pics and a video report
http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local...4Home

Call off the TSB, I think the CP24 reporter at the scene has solved the cause of the incident. After picking up and smelling one of the pieces that fell from the aircraft, she commented that "it smells like gasoline". Of course we know that that will likely cause less than optimal performance on most GE90 engines.
Mind you, the pieces did land in and around a PetroCan gas station, so maybe that has something to do with it. It couldn't possibly be that our intrepid reporter doesn't know the difference between the smells of gasoline, kerosene smells or any one of the combustible fluids in aircraft engines.

Newark727 · Tue May 29, 2012 3:28 am

How many big GE90 failures have occurred in the past? Any on the GE90-110 that the B777-200LR/-300ER use?

Viscount724 · Tue May 29, 2012 3:55 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 25):
How many big GE90 failures have occurred in the past? Any on the GE90-110 that the B777-200LR/-300ER use?

AC had 2 77Ws divert to Alaska on flights to Asia (one to Fairbanks in 2008 and one to Anchorage in 2009). Both required an engine change and the engines had to be trucked to Alaska. The one for the 77W in FAI came all the way from YYZ, a road trip of about 4,000 miles that took about a week. Both aircraft were out of service for about 2 weeks.

I believe one involved the gearbox and the other some damaged turbine blades.

I also recall a QR 77W that diverted to Gander in September 2008 due to an engine failure and required an engine change. Summary of that one from the Transport Canada occurence reporting site:

UPDATE TSB: A08A0115: The Qatar Airways Boeing 777-300ER aircraft was operating as QTR052 from Washington, DC to Doha, Qatar at FL370. At 02:25 NDT, when approximately 175nm west of Gander, the crew declared a Mayday due to an engine failure (GE90-115B); they requested and were cleared descent to FL200 and a diversion to Gander, NL. Clearance to dump fuel approximately 30nm N of Gander was requested and received. The aircraft landed without further incident at 03:16 NDT. The engine, serial number unknown, had failed in cruise flight. During an unsuccessful relight attempt, EGT limitations were exceeded. Subsequent inspection revealed tiny particles in the tailpipe and debris on chip detectors. The engine was removed and will be returned to the manufacturer for further examination.

connies4ever · Tue May 29, 2012 4:21 am

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
This is about the worst thing that could happen to AC right now, the entire fleet but especially the 777's are running to the wall as it is. This is probably going to have a ripple effect down the line, and depending on how long it's out for there might be some immediate down gauges on some flights. Fingers crossed it is just the engine, and GE/AC can get a new one in ASAP. Thankfully they got it back to YYZ, and not some small airport elsewhere.

Based on previous AC experience with T7engine failures (2) 1-2 weeks will likely be the service outage for this a/c. I'd err towards a shorter time since they dont have to truck the engine to Alaska.

cargolex · Tue May 29, 2012 4:48 am

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):

This is about the worst thing that could happen to AC right now, the entire fleet but especially the 777's are running to the wall as it is. This is probably going to have a ripple effect down the line, and depending on how long it's out for there might be some immediate down gauges on some flights.

If it's really dire, there is always the short term ACMI solution, which several carriers would be happy to provide, though likely only Atlas or Omni would have the requisite equipment to sub for a 777 of any kind.

[Edited 2012-05-28 21:55:03]

JAAlbert · Tue May 29, 2012 4:59 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 26):
AC had 2 77Ws divert to Alaska on flights to Asia (one to Fairbanks in 2008 and one to Anchorage in 2009). Both required an engine change and the engines had to be trucked to Alaska. The one for the 77W in FAI came all the way from YYZ, a road trip of about 4,000 miles that took about a week. Both aircraft were out of service for about 2 weeks.

Did they also have to truck in equipment needed to change the engine? I can't imagine you can simply hang a GE-90 engine from a chain and drop it into position. What sort of equipment is required to change an engine that size and where would an airline get it from?

lightsaber · Tue May 29, 2012 5:39 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 27):
Based on previous AC experience with T7engine failures (2) 1-2 weeks will likely be the service outage for this a/c. I'd err towards a shorter time since they dont have to truck the engine to Alaska.

Thank you. However, due to the holiday weekend (many Americans take this week off from work), I think the issue will be getting people out to inspect the airframe. Or maybe it will go quicker as one won't have someone saying 'sample this and that.'

Was there significant nacelle damage? I see pictures of the cars impacted, but not of the engine/nacelle.

Quoting cargolex (Reply 28):
If it's really dire, there is always the short term ACMI solution, which several carriers would be happy to provide, though likely only Atlas or Omni would have the requisite equipment to sub for a 777 of any kind.

Or wet lease a 744... I wouldn't be surprised if one of AC's *A partners wouldn't be willing to help, for the right fee that is.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 25):
ow many big GE90 failures have occurred in the past?

What do you consider a failure? Only AC? GE had trouble with compressors a year back. Before then KLM (IIRC at JNB) had issues too. That was also a compressor problem. They were allowed to ferry, sans passengers, back to AMS for that repair.

Do not get me wrong, the GE-90-115 is an excellent engine. But it is a high performance engine and that means issues.

Lightsaber

spotter · Tue May 29, 2012 5:43 am

A/C 733 is currently under going a #2 engine change. Looks like the LPT let go and there is quite a bit of damage. Aircraft will most likely be out of service for a few days. We do have a spare engine in Top

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net