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beau222
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DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:33 am

I found this video while looking at others and just could not get over how drastic the lockup was. Does the pilot really not notice that his tiller is not in fwd position? When he eventually lines up it almost looks like he notices the run up was odd slows down and then throttles up. In all my years I have only seen the nose gear locking up when some pilots turn the wheel too sharp on initial turn from the gate never on the taxi way. Is this common?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoGeKdNxH4U&feature=endscreen&NR=1
 
n515cr
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:37 am

Nice, drifting in a Mad Dog!
 
FX1816
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:39 am

Quoting beau222 (Thread starter):
I found this video while looking at others and just could not get over how drastic the lockup was. Does the pilot really not notice that his tiller is not in fwd position? When he eventually lines up it almost looks like he notices the run up was odd slows down and then throttles up. In all my years I have only seen the nose gear locking up when some pilots turn the wheel too sharp on initial turn from the gate never on the taxi way. Is this common?

It's actually while turning on to the runway. I'd have to guess that they were cleared for T/O before turning on to the runway and while making the left turn and powering up, the tiller basically got stuck to the left.

FX1816
 
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Ty134A
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:51 am

I had this once on a L10 flight from HNL to SFO... produces a very strange noise inside.

I wonder if they can do this with the main gear ...
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Goldenshield
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:25 am

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 3):

I wonder if they can do this with the main gear ...

Not while taxiing, but most landings at Kai Tak resulted in this.
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longhauler
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:00 pm

It almost looks like the nose wheel steering went over centre then locked. Pretty tough on the nose gear tires.

[Edited 2012-06-06 14:37:58 by srbmod]
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seabosdca
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:05 pm

Hardly drifting... just understeer.  
 
B777LRF
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:10 pm

Yes, well, that's what happens when you spool up the engines while still turning rather sharply, and I'm sure the airline will be delighted when presented with a bill for two new tires for no good reason. Also noticed a lot of window blinds being down, I suppose being able to see out in case of an emergency is not a priority with Delta either.
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YULWinterSkies
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:16 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 8):
Also noticed a lot of window blinds being down, I suppose being able to see out in case of an emergency is not a priority with Delta either.

I don't recall DL ever asking pax to do this. And my last 2 flights with them were yesterday.
The only airline I know that enforces this is AC, and they are pretty damn strict about it.
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DBQ
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 9):
I don't recall DL ever asking pax to do this. And my last 2 flights with them were yesterday.
The only airline I know that enforces this is AC, and they are pretty damn strict about it.

Why do they do it? For cooling?
 
jayspilot
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:30 pm

This was discussed 4-5 months back. I remember reading that while the video was over a old and there was NO reports of a write up from the event the FAA did an investigation after seeing the you tube video.
 
yeelep
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:29 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 6):

It almost looks like the nose wheel steering went over centre then locked. Pretty tough on the nose gear tires.

If I remember correctly, at full lock one of the steering actuators is over center. When that much steering is used on a Maddog you have to forcibly steer it to the right and slow down to regain control of the steering. One thing that the MD does that makes matters worse is the outside tire, is off the ground with the steering at full lock due to the amount of caster, so you have less than half the contact patch available. When my airline had MD's, it wasn't uncommon to skid the nose tires during maintenance taxi's, though not close to the degree shown in the video.
 
atlengineer
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 7):
Hardly drifting... just understeer.

In NASCAR lingo, that is called being "tight" as opposed to being "loose". Bad setup!

ATLengineer
 
trnswrld
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:13 pm

I saw this video for the first time yesterday and watched it over and over. Thought it was pretty sweet haha.

Im thinking these are the possible situations that happened here:

The plane might have been a empty ferry flight because it appears that 85% of the window shades are down which more than likely wouldnt be the case if it was a normal scheduled flight full of passengers. So because of this the front of the plane might have been lighter than normal so that along with power up while still turning resulted in that.
Another possible scenario is tower cleared the plane for takeoff and might have said no delay in the roll so the pilot might have pushed it too much causing the nose gear to slide out.
I also assume that the gear turns slowly so its not like the pilot could have cranked it right over quickly.

I am sort of surprised though that they didnt need to abort completely and maybe have that nose gear checked out. Regardless, that sure made for an awesome video  
 
yeelep
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 16):
I also assume that the gear turns slowly so its not like the pilot could have cranked it right over quickly.

From straight ahead to full lock takes about three or four seconds. One thing that happens is you turn the tiller, the plane skids and the natural instinct is to turn more. Just like in a car.
 
LHRSpotter
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:28 pm

At around 0:30 in the video I noticed that most window blinds are down. Isn't there a requirement in the US like in Europe for the blinds to be open during taxi and takeoff?
 
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PW100
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:31 pm

Anyway, not sure how this would feel and sound like from the front office, but wouldn't an external inspection of the front tyres and steering assembly be a good idea before proceeding with the take-off?

PW100

[Edited 2012-06-06 14:40:08 by srbmod]
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BoeingGuy
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:31 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 18):
Quoting JHCRJ700 (Reply 5):
Pretty sure this video has been discussed before

If you have seen it before, then why don't you post the link so those of us who did not see it before can then see it?

He's correct:

DL MD-88 Nose Wheel Skid On T/O (by andyinpit Apr 15 2012 in Civil Aviation)
 
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PW100
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:16 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 21):

Now there is a useful post!
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
g38
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:28 pm

Here's a nearly identical video of an A330!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py7SWc8iO9g&feature=related

[Edited 2012-06-04 14:29:09]
 
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longhauler
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 16):
The plane might have been a empty ferry flight because it appears that 85% of the window shades are down which more than likely wouldn't be the case if it was a normal scheduled flight full of passengers.

I guessing it was empty as well. Not just the window blinds, but also the steep climb. Even when you can, one tries not to scare the passengers with a climb like that.

And, while we on this site would love such a maximum effort climb, most passengers would not.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:49 pm

Quoting LHRSpotter (Reply 19):
Isn't there a requirement in the US like in Europe for the blinds to be open during taxi and takeoff?

AFAIK, no there is not, and I don't see why there should be.

-DiamondFlyer
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dwightm
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:47 pm

I saw this before. I am not sure if it was on A.net or anoither site, but I enjoyed seeing it again. I don't see the big deal if someone does re-post something seen before. If you have seen a post before, close it and move on to the next unread post. I am sure that even in a repeat post, there are people who are new to the discussion, or haven't seen the post before, or perhaps new information may have come to light, or even, maybe people wish to discuss the matter further. Like a bad TV program, we all have the freedom to not look! Exercise that freedom or enjoy the post & contribute!
 
md80fanatic
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:14 am

On all transport category aircraft with tricycle gear, there really isn't much weight on the nose wheel (even when fully loaded). The MD-80s especially are quite light up front. The slightest acceleration tips the weight "vector" rearward even more (similar to an automobile) and with the already light weight on the nose wheel, in doesn't take much for it to break free.

I thought there was an image in the database of a group of 5 or so rampers teaming up to lift the nose and "scoot" a Maddog into a better position at a gate .... or was I just imaging that?

[Edited 2012-06-04 17:15:26]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:24 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 27):
AFAIK, no there is not, and I don't see why there should be.

Many AIRLINES (but not, to my knowledge, governments) do have this requirement. To me it makes sense. In the event of an emergency, being able to see out to note fire/debris on one side of the aircraft would be important and also, having the interior lighting conditions matching the exterior lighting conditions makes it less likely that passengers would be blinded on stepping outside into bright sunlight/dark night during an evac.

To echo a prior poster, was proceeding with T/O a good idea after a drift like this? That was a lot more smoke than the nosegear typically makes on a landing.

[Edited 2012-06-04 17:32:03]
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longhauler
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
To echo a prior poster, was proceeding with T/O a good idea after a drift like this? That was a lot more smoke than the nosegear typically makes on a landing.

I would imagine if the Captain seen it from the outside, he would have abandoned the take-off. But, from the inside, other than the discomfort, he probably thought nothing of it.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:41 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 32):
I would imagine if the Captain seen it from the outside, he would have abandoned the take-off. But, from the inside, other than the discomfort, he probably thought nothing of it.

Wouldn't another pilot have pointed it out?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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beau222
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:57 am

We'll I actually did a search to see if this video was posted in the past, Nothing came up in the search and right before you do the final post it actually listed some prior posts that it thought were similar but was not the same. I never intended to steal the original posts thunder. I was excited to see this posting online and had never watched it before.
Beau
 
khpn
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:41 am

ive never seen either but both are crazy, the A330 one is really exciting!
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:36 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 25):
Even when you can, one tries not to scare the passengers with a climb like that.

Are you kidding? Have you ever been on an MD-88? This is a routine climb-out for a sub 1,000 NM leg.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 25):
And, while we on this site would love such a maximum effort climb, most passengers would not.

Doubt it. Unless they're scared of flying altogether..
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
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longhauler
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 36):
Are you kidding?

No I am not.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 36):
Unless they're scared of flying altogether..

By latest surveys, around 80% of passengers have some fear of flying.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
swafa
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:47 pm

At WN, we do not require the shades to be lifted at any time. I agree with DocLightening. During critical phases (takeoff, approach, landing) I would prefer that shades were up for better situational awareness, at least in the exit rows. Though, as I said, we don't require it so we dont enforce it. When sitting on the front jump seat, I have asked Customers to open there window shades so that I could see outside, mostly for the reason stated above, but also because it's nice to see outside.

On a side, we also ask our Customers to close there shades before exiting the aircraft if we happen to be somewhere exceptionally hot. It makes a significant difference when trying to keep the plane cool. Then after we board, sometimes people just choose not to lift the shades. It's possible that something similar occurred with this plane.

In keeping with the thread topic: The pilot's decision to continue this take off was poor judgement in my opinion. We put our lives in their hands and trust them to make smart choices. I don't expect perfection, but seeing this adds just a little more doubt in my brain.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:08 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 36):
Doubt it. Unless they're scared of flying altogether..

I've enjoyed a couple of max-blast takeoffs with lightly-loaded aircraft as a passenger. My most memorable was a UA 744 from SFO to ORD taking off of 19R (towards the freeway) with about 30 pax aboard. In all such cases, the captain has come on prior to takeoff to warn the passengers that the takeoff would be unusually strong and that there is no danger. Once you've experienced one of these takeoffs (it gets hard to pull your head off the headrest), you understand why they are not standard procedure.
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seabosdca
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 36):
Have you ever been on an MD-88? This is a routine climb-out for a sub 1,000 NM leg.

I've flown on plenty of MD-80s on sub-1000 nm legs and never experienced a climb like that. That's more like something I'd expect from a 73G. Still, it's not something that would alarm passengers in the same way as, say, the SNA noise-abatement procedure in a 73G or 752.

[Edited 2012-06-05 10:12:06]
 
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longhauler
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
Wouldn't another pilot have pointed it out?

It really depends on the situation, as it could be misinterpreted as sticking one's nose where it doesn't belong. Much like you as as physician, have to be careful when "advising" another physician. Tact, is often the best tack, and in sitting on the runway there might not have been time.

I recall one winter in a snow storm in YYZ, everyone in line for take-off had green wings (Type IV de-icing fluid), except for the one WestJet aircraft which had red wings. (Type I de-icing fluid ... not as effective, but quite a bit cheaper). As we were behind him, the First Officer turned to me and said that he thought snow was collecting on his wings. I reminded him that by law, he is legally bound to say something. So he did, on the common frequency that he thought snow was collecting on his wings.

Tower asked if he heard, and his answer was, "Thanks money-losing Air Canada, we know what we are doing". And he took off! The frequency was silent, as everyone was astonished. For the record, he broke more than one air reg. But finally someone said ... "I hope those folks got a cheap flight, cause they sure didn't get a safe one!"

Some people just don't take advice well!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
boswashsprstar
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 9):
I don't recall DL ever asking pax to do this. And my last 2 flights with them were yesterday.
The only airline I know that enforces this is AC, and they are pretty damn strict about it.

I have definitely seen this enforced on Delta, but not always. I'd say maybe 40% of the time. IIRC some Delta Connection carriers are pretty strict about it though.
 
peanuts
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 32):
I would imagine if the Captain seen it from the outside, he would have abandoned the take-off. But, from the inside, other than the discomfort, he probably thought nothing of it.

Performing a visual check should be standard in these cases, you just never know. Continuing take-off roll appears a little careless. Why just rely on your gauges?

Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):
t really depends on the situation, as it could be misinterpreted as sticking one's nose where it doesn't belong.

I understand but numerous fatalities have occurred in our lifetimes for this exact reason. Scary.

BTW, anecdotal side note: Every now and then, when I see a car driving with an extremely low tire or broken light, I will try to make at least one attempt at the next traffic light to call their attention to it. My friends think I'm crazy for doing this. Oh well. I don't care. As much as I wouldn't care others telling me about an issue.

Keeping ones ego intact over reducing accidents? Easy decision for me. Anyone throwing attitude around has a few insecurity issues to overcome anyway.
 
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longhauler
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 43):
Performing a visual check should be standard in these cases, you just never know. Continuing take-off roll appears a little careless. Why just rely on your gauges?

To do a visual check would require going back to the gate, or at best, if staff were there to stop on a remote stand and have maintenance check it out. There are no tire wear gauges.

While not judging nor condoning these actions, remember that aviation is all about managing risk, as it can not be eliminated. As I said above, if the Captain were aware of how it looked from the outside, his decision might have been easier.

As far as getting advice from spectators, the time line just wasn't there. By the time he was stabilized in a straight line, he was probably doing about 60 knots. By the time someone could have said something and he thought about it, he would have been above 100 knots. At that point, and with any tire issue on take-off, it is better to continue the take-off than attempt a reject with less than optimum tires.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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longhauler
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:13 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 43):
Keeping ones ego intact over reducing accidents? Easy decision for me. Anyone throwing attitude around has a few insecurity issues to overcome anyway.

That is one of the reasons that Human Factors is one of the largest parts of any aviation accident investigation today . It has always been around, but it became very apparent with the KLM / Pan American accident in the Canary Islands.

Everyone knows that accident, it has been discussed ad nauseum. The cause was very simple. It was caused because the KLM Captain took off without a takeoff clearance. However, for the first time ... "Why?" was investigated. In that investigation CRM became a buzzword, which developed into today's "Human Factors".

I don't think anyone would argue against your comments.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting swafa (Reply 38):
In keeping with the thread topic: The pilot's decision to continue this take off was poor judgement in my opinion.

I disagree. HAD HE KNOWN what we know, then I would agree. He did not have that info. The MD-80 has no camera that monitors the nosegear.

Your judgement can only be judged based on what information was available to you at the time you had to make a decision.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:42 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 37):
By latest surveys, around 80% of passengers have some fear of flying.

I'm surprised by that; what's your source? I would not equate having an innate fear of a worst case scenario versus a fear of flying altogether, as the same thing.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
Once you've experienced one of these takeoffs (it gets hard to pull your head off the headrest), you understand why they are not standard procedure.

Your UA 744 T/O experience sounds memorable, but the MD-88 climb-out in this video appears in-line with SOP for this aircraft type.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 40):
I've flown on plenty of MD-80s on sub-1000 nm legs and never experienced a climb like that. That's more like something I'd expect from a 73G.

I'll date myself here... I have watched countless MD-80s test flight and delivery flight take-offs out of LGB. Not all of these aircraft were at OEW. I have also been a passenger on hundreds of flights from all of the different variants.

The bottom line, this climb-out is not something I haven't seen or experienced before, and would appear in-line with the type's SOP. In fact, of the MD twin variants, the -88 in particular is said to have the steepest climb-out, all things being equal.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
jeb94
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RE: DL MD-88 Drifting On Taxi

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:38 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):

Quoting swafa (Reply 38):
In keeping with the thread topic: The pilot's decision to continue this take off was poor judgement in my opinion.

I disagree. HAD HE KNOWN what we know, then I would agree. He did not have that info. The MD-80 has no camera that monitors the nosegear.

Your judgement can only be judged based on what information was available to you at the time you had to make a decision.

There was no damage to the aircraft. He realized he made an error throttling up too much in a tight turn, corrected it, and continued. No harm no foul. The steering isn't actually locked up, its just hard over and he's holding it there as he hasn't hit the center line yet. As soon as he realizes he's sliding he throttles back, the nose tires grab and swing the aircraft back toward the center-line. He then has to steer back to the right as the mains had to be realigned since the whole aircraft is undoubtedly too far right after that slide. He probably got a 'without delay' and got a little excited. If it was a new F/O flying the takeoff probably more so but that's speculation on my part. Keep in mind the captain has the only tiller. Other than a layer or two shaved off the nose tire, not a big deal, just kind of embarrassing and momentarily nerve racking as the aircraft slides. Passengers probably felt the side to side and heard the engines power up, back down, and then up again and many, especially those afraid of flying, where probably wondering what in the world happened. Other than that, nothing else would've been heard or felt.

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