FSDan
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:05 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 49):
a 4.1% drop at MSP
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 49):
MSP has about 2,700 more seats departing per day

That sounds contradictory unless I'm reading it wrong...


Either way, I believe the average aircraft size is up at MSP this summer. There will be just under 200 mainline flights vs ~180 last year (I think...). Also, there are more MD-90s and more 757s. However, I suppose the cut in 50-seat and Saab 340B flying might offset that.
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MSPNWA
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:27 am

Quoting FSDan (Reply 50):
That sounds contradictory unless I'm reading it wrong...

MSP is still bigger even with the larger decline - about 52K seats to 49.3K seats per day.

Gauge must be barely higher. It lost 23 flights, or 4.6%, compared with the 4.1% drop in seats.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:27 am

Quoting FSDan (Reply 50):
Either way, I believe the average aircraft size is up at MSP this summer. There will be just under 200 mainline flights vs ~180 last year (I think...). Also, there are more MD-90s and more 757s. However, I suppose the cut in 50-seat and Saab 340B flying might offset that.

I think what he's saying is that due to the Saab 340 retirement and the fact that much of EAS flying has transitioned to ZK impacts the number of seats at both hubs. MSP lost more EAS flying to ZK where with DTW nothing has been cut yet (APN is likely to go to OO perhaps).

This summer the major flight changes at DTW include:
- HND daily A332
- CDG daily 763 (DL metal, in addition to daily AF flight)
 
steex
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:05 am

Quoting FSDan (Reply 50):

That sounds contradictory unless I'm reading it wrong...
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 51):

MSP is still bigger even with the larger decline - about 52K seats to 49.3K seats per day.

Gauge must be barely higher. It lost 23 flights, or 4.6%, compared with the 4.1% drop in seats.

To clarify, I believe MSPNWA means that despite the departure numbers, there are actually more seats in the MSP market than DTW. By seat count, MSP is the second largest DL hub, not DTW.
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:31 am

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 52):

Can the A332 make DTW-HND flight without any load restrictions?
 
burnsie28
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:56 pm

Quoting TWA1985 (Reply 42):
Thank You! Does anyone know if ORD is DL's largest non-hub station?

LAX is larger

Station/Avg Daily flights for July

LAX: 100.83
BOS: 65.42
ORD: 52.23
MCO: 49.94

To put in perspective against the hubs:

Station/Avg Daily flights for July
AMS: 18.35
ATL: 986.16
CDG: 8.74
CVG: 105.29
DTW: 500.61
JFK: 178.26
LGA: 217.87
MEM: 132.32
MSP: 451.87
NRT: 24.87
SLC: 264.68
 
FSDan
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:01 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 51):
MSP is still bigger even with the larger decline - about 52K seats to 49.3K seats per day.

Oh, got it. I was thinking just about DL, but you're saying that the airport as a whole has gained seats even with DL down a bit due to turboprop retirements.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 52):
This summer the major flight changes at DTW include:
- HND daily A332
- CDG daily 763 (DL metal, in addition to daily AF flight)

I would add to that the 2x daily 763 flights on DTW-SFO and 2-3x daily 753 flights on DTW-SEA. Those are both significant increases year-over-year.

Some other random highlights (in my mind) from the DL S12 schedule:

-319 on MSN-ATL (first time for mainline on this one I think)
-3x daily 757 on MSP-GEG (significantly up over last summer)
-757 on MSP-PHL (hasn't happened since a year or two before the merger)
-M88 on DTW-BUF (this one has been all RJ for several years)
-3x daily mainline on DTW-DFW (used to be mostly large RJs)
-767 on ATL-PDX
-763 on ATL-LAS (was all 757 during the shoulder season)
-767s on JFK-DUB, BRU, FRA, CPH, ARN (previously 757 routes)
-320 on SLC-SAT
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MSPNWA
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 56):
I was thinking just about DL,

The DL operations alone are what I totaled up. So MSP continues as the second-largest DL hub, but the gap with DTW narrowed a bit.
 
delta2ual
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:28 pm

Quoting WESTERN737800 (Reply 39):
Very impressive work. I can you put a lot of time into this. When I was a kid I would spend hours going through the paper timetables.

Me too! I remember having a large accordion-type folder when I was about 10 years old and I would go down the phone book and call every airline and order timetables.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 56):
-767s on JFK-DUB, BRU, FRA, CPH, ARN (previously 757 routes)

And prior to the 757's all were 767's.
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SESGDL
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 57):

The DL operations alone are what I totaled up. So MSP continues as the second-largest DL hub, but the gap with DTW narrowed a bit.

Not entirely true, by the late 1990s DTW overtook MSP by total seats and departures, remaining that way until very recently. MSP being larger than DTW is actually a change from the days of NW.

Looking at ATL's numbers, it appears ATL has reached (or at least equaled) its larger ever mainline departure and seats total. Not since DFW's dehubbing has ATL seen over 620 daily mainline departures, and this summer will approach 660 on peak days. Quite impressive.

Jeremy
 
RKSofACinUSA
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 19):
73W refers to 737-700s with winglets. Likewise, 737-800s with winglets are often designated as 73H, rather than 738. However, as I think you are noting, this is not always applied consistently. That is why DL calls their 737-700s as 73W, rather than 73G, because of the winglets. So, you'll see 73W or 73G sometimes interchangeably, and 738 and 73H the same. I'm not sure if there is a different designation for 739s with winglets.

This is not 100% correct. All DL 737's (700s and 800s) have winglets now. The 73H is an 800 series with PTV's. The one's without PTV's are designated as 738. All 73W's have PTV's.
 
threeifbyair
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 56):
-3x daily 757 on MSP-GEG (significantly up over last summer)

Anyone from GEG have an idea why? DL usually runs A319/320s, E175s, and CR9s on this route in the off-season. I can't recall ever seeing 752s, even in the NW era. GEG has a good-sized catchment area but it isn't exactly a major tourist destination. Perhaps GEG is getting some Canadian demand, but it is south of a relatively unpopulated part of BC and there is no freeway connection.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 56):
2-3x daily 753 flights on DTW-SEA. Those are both significant increases year-over-year.

I suspect DL may have won some contracts from the cruise lines - SEA-MSP/JFK are also significantly higher than I can remember at any time post-merger. There is also proabbly some Canadian demand on the DTW side as well.
 
steex
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 61):
Anyone from GEG have an idea why? DL usually runs A319/320s, E175s, and CR9s on this route in the off-season. I can't recall ever seeing 752s, even in the NW era. GEG has a good-sized catchment area but it isn't exactly a major tourist destination. Perhaps GEG is getting some Canadian demand, but it is south of a relatively unpopulated part of BC and there is no freeway connection.

A random data point, but I flew GEG-MSP on an oversold 752 last summer. I believe they've had at least one 752 on the route at various times the past couple summers. I also recall at one point seeing 4x M90 scheduled for MSP-GEG on a summer schedule.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:02 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 59):
Not entirely true, by the late 1990s DTW overtook MSP by total seats and departures, remaining that way until very recently. MSP being larger than DTW is actually a change from the days of NW.

I wasn't trying to imply that MSP has always been larger than DTW. It hasn't been as you say.
 
HPRamper
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:29 pm

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 61):
Anyone from GEG have an idea why? DL usually runs A319/320s, E175s, and CR9s on this route in the off-season. I can't recall ever seeing 752s, even in the NW era. GEG has a good-sized catchment area but it isn't exactly a major tourist destination. Perhaps GEG is getting some Canadian demand, but it is south of a relatively unpopulated part of BC and there is no freeway connection.

Is it because of other carriers dropping overall service?

GEG's catchment covers a good amount of area in eastern Washington and northern Idaho, maybe a bit of Montana...but it is a relatively sparsely populated area. While there is plenty to do if you know where to look, it's not what I would call a tourist destination and the Canada factor is minimal. By and large, GEG is just Spokane and the surrounding plains and hills and what you see is what you get.
 
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting RKSofACinUSA (Reply 60):
This is not 100% correct. All DL 737's (700s and 800s) have winglets now. The 73H is an 800 series with PTV's. The one's without PTV's are designated as 738. All 73W's have PTV's.

Actually it is correct. W or H doesn't officially designation whether it has PTVs. That may be DL's internal distinction but is not the official correct code. W and H refers to it having winglets installed, but as I stated is not consistently used as you are pointing out.
 
burnsie28
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 61):
I can't recall ever seeing 752s, even in the NW era

A few years before the merger at one point NW was running 3x 757s to GEG IIRC.
 
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compensateme
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:43 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 51):
I calculated the numbers ... MSP is still bigger even with the larger decline - about 52K seats to 49.3K seats per day.

Your calculations are wrong. Using FSDan's data, DTW has approximately 1,500 more seats than MSP, making it 3% larger. On a weekly basis, the percentage will be slightly larger as DTW's daily service is slightly more volatile than MSP's (including stronger service on Saturday's). On an annual basis, the percentage is comfortably larger; outside the summer season, DTW enjoys a significant edge in seats vs. MSP.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 57):
The DL operations alone are what I totaled up. So MSP continues as the second-largest DL hub, but the gap with DTW narrowed a bit.

None of this matters, anyway, since industry standard for size is ASM and RPM of which DTW is significantly larger than MSP.

Think of retail: when you read 'Axe deodorant has more than 80% market share among young males,' do you interpret this as four-out-of-five deodorant products sold are Axe products? Or do you recognize that when one person purchases a Speedstick product (average retail: $1-$2) and the other Axe (average retail: $4-$6), Axe reigns with 80% revenue (market) share? Revenue is the gold standard.

Thus, DTW is and will remain DL's second-largest hub.
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MSPNWA
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 67):

Your calculations are wrong.

Actually I did make one mistake with DTW and the A330s, but it still doesn't match with your figures. The correct DTW estimations are about 50,200 daily seats, an essentially flat y-o-y change. That puts DTW ahead by 1,000 seats.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 67):
None of this matters, anyway,

Yes it does. There are multiple metrics to gauging airline and airport size, and this is one of them. They all play a role, and there may not necessarily be a concrete right or wrong answer. This industry loves to cherry-pick the one or two metrics that make themselves look good, and then argue the rest don't count. It's pretty ridiculous.


Edited because I can't read today.

[Edited 2012-06-08 15:08:15]

[Edited 2012-06-08 15:10:04]

[Edited 2012-06-08 15:13:59]
 
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compensateme
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 68):
Actually I did make one mistake with DTW and the A330s, but it still doesn't match with your figures.

Since your DTW is similar to mine, let's calculate MSP:

MSP:
CRJ: 156 * 50 = 7800
CR7: 12 * 65 = 780
CR9: 42 * 76 = 3192
E70: 12 * 69 = 828
E75: 57 * 76 = 4332
total regional = 16,932

D95: 2 * 125 = 250
319: 31 * 126 = 3906
320: 37 * 150 = 5550
M88: 11 * 149 = 1639
M90: 48 * 160 = 7860
738: 11 * 160 = 1760
752: 38 * 180 = 6840
753: 10 * 224 = 2240
763: 1 * 210 = 210
763: 2 * 261 = 522
764: 1 * 246 = 246
332: 2 * 239 = 478
333: 1 * 298 = 298
777: 1 * 271 = 271
total mainline = 32,070

total seats = ~49,002

50,200 (DTW) > 49,000 (MSP)

Thus, DTW has approx. 3% more seats than MSP. By your metric, it's a larger hub.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 68):
Yes it does. There are multiple metrics to gauging airline and airport size, and this is one of them. They all play a role, and there may not necessarily be a concrete right or wrong answer. This industry loves to cherry-pick the one or two metrics that make themselves look good, and then argue the rest don't count. It's pretty ridiculous.

The industry uses ASM and RPM. Some marketing professionals use other metrics, but the industry again uses ASM and RPM.

Nonetheless, DTW prevails.
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MSPNWA
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:35 pm

You have it right. Hmm, I had crossed out the correct estimate of 49K and changed it. Bah, it's been a long day.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 69):

The industry uses ASM and RPM. Some marketing professionals use other metrics, but the industry again uses ASM and RPM.

Again, the industry loves to create a favorable metric for itself. ASMs is the most common method but has a bias that needs to accounted for. Total capacity is common among the media and has a bias too. We've gone over this before in this forum. This summer DTW is larger than MSP in every metric. Last summer it wasn't. That's the bottom line.
 
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compensateme
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 70):
This summer DTW is larger than MSP in every metric. Last summer it wasn't. That's the bottom line.



Wrong again.  

Using the data from FSDan's similar thread from last year:
DL Summer 2011 Hub/Focus City Departure Breakdown (by FSDan Apr 15 2011 in Civil Aviation)

DTW had ~50,200 seats compared to MSP's ~49,700. Thus, DTW was larger. (And that data was sourced from an April version of the schedule. In the schedule flown, the difference was slightly larger.)

In recent years, DTW & MSP have had a comparable number of seats available during the eight-week summer stretch but on an annual basis, DTW is comfortably ahead.

By all metrics of size DTW is DL's second-largest hub; DL even identifies it as such.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 70):
Again, the industry loves to create a favorable metric for itself

Some a.net posters do, but the industry itself doesn't. Another participant within this tread will probably respond by pointing out that MSP has more mainline service than DTW, declare DTW's mainline service pathetic and conclude MSP is therefore the second-largest hub.  Wink.

[Edited 2012-06-08 16:40:12]
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fxramper
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:40 pm

To clarify, sad day for this company when zero 747 depart MSP.   
 
FSDan
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:25 am

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 58):
Quoting FSDan (Reply 56):
-767s on JFK-DUB, BRU, FRA, CPH, ARN (previously 757 routes)

And prior to the 757's all were 767's.

Not CPH or ARN as far as I know. But it's true that the others were 767s before being downgauged to 757s. Either way, I see it as a highlight that there are 767s on the routes now.
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peanuts
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:46 am

A while back I had heard through the grapevine DL wanted to reduce/stop TA 757 flying. I never got a confirmation as to the accuracy of that rumor. We do see a reduction of 757 TA flying though.

So, what are the remaining 757 routes across the pond this Summer?

[Edited 2012-06-08 17:55:42]
 
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ASMD11
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 61):

Anyone from GEG have an idea why? DL usually runs A319/320s, E175s, and CR9s on this route in the off-season. I can't recall ever seeing 752s, even in the NW era. GEG has a good-sized catchment area but it isn't exactly a major tourist destination. Perhaps GEG is getting some Canadian demand, but it is south of a relatively unpopulated part of BC and there is no freeway connection.

Last summer it was 1x 320 and 2x 752

Summer 2010 it was 4x MD90

From what I can recall without looking, from 2002-2005 summer was 3x 752 with a late evening (6pm I believe) CR2 some years.

The demand in GEG skyrockets in the summer compared to the rest of the year, and the flights to MSP have always been full, before and after the merger. And looking at the fares...wow, I just checked a random date at the end of July and cheapest I could find was $426.
 
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compensateme
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:52 am

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 61):
Anyone from GEG have an idea why?

Elaborating on ASMD11's posting, NW's flew 757 into GEG for many summers. DL's slightly increasing MSP while simultaneously slightly decreasing SLC (remember, most passengers are connecting); overall, GEG's experiencing a net loss of 4% seats.

Historical NW/DL service to MSP:

1999: M82, 2x72S
2000: 3x72S
2001: 3x320
2002: 2x320, 757
2003: 320, 2x757
2004: 320, 2x757
2005: 320, 2x757
2006: 3x320
2007: 3x320
2008: 319, 2x320
2009: 3x320
2010: 320, 3xM90
2011: 320, 2x757
2012: 3x757

Historical DL service to SLC:
2009: 2x738; 4xCRJ
2010: 319, M90; CRJ, 2xCR9
2011: 2x320, 738; CRJ, CR7, CR9
2012: 319, 320, 738; CR7, CR9

Quoting ASMD11 (Reply 75):
summer compared to the rest of the year, and the flights to MSP have always been full, before and after the merger. And looking at the fares...wow, I just checked a random date at the end of July and cheapest I could find was $426.

Nothing unusual about the fare -- most published mid- and transcontinental RT fares have been north of $400 for summer travel.
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cokepopper
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:15 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 74):
So, what are the remaining 757 routes across the pond this Summer?

PIT/PHL CDG
JFK-SNN
JFK-AGP
JFK-VCE
JFK-DKR
JFK-KEF

Quoting FSDan (Reply 73):
Not CPH or ARN as far as I know.

Yes they were both served previously with 76 and before that I believe A310
 
SESGDL
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:32 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 67):

None of this matters, anyway, since industry standard for size is ASM and RPM of which DTW is significantly larger than MSP.
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 67):
Thus, DTW is and will remain DL's second-largest hub.

If this doesn't sound like a desperate "mine's bigger than yours" then I don't know what it is.  

Jeremy
 
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compensateme
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 78):
If this doesn't sound like a desperate "mine's bigger than yours" then I don't know what it is.

I'm sorry, did you and MSPNWA not bring the topic up?  
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ericaasen
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:40 am

Quoting BDL757 (Reply 40):
Here's what I was able to gather for Chicago O'Hare:

Total: 59

Which is really impressive considering by my counting that ORD is the 11th largest station in the system and home to the second biggest hub for AA and UA. And I'd bet AA or UA don't have operations that come close to DL operations at ORD at ATL, DTW, or MSP.

It's also nice to see only 1 MD88 daily, I'd rather work on the 90s. They're a lot easier to load since they're not as nose heavy, despite the the condition air connection on the 'new' ones is located at the back of the plane instead of the side like the original 90s and 88s.
 
FSDan
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:56 am

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 77):
PIT/PHL CDG
JFK-SNN
JFK-AGP
JFK-VCE
JFK-DKR
JFK-KEF

I'm assuming you meant JFK-VLC rather than JFK-VCE.  
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steex
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:02 am

Quoting ericaasen (Reply 80):
And I'd bet AA or UA don't have operations that come close to DL operations at ORD at ATL, DTW, or MSP.

No, but that's hardly an apples-to-apples comparison. ORD is a significantly larger market than ATL, DTW, or MSP.
 
PHX787
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:09 am

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 77):
JFK-DKR

THIS is operated by a 757? That doesn't sound like a route I wanna be on   
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steex
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:14 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 83):
THIS is operated by a 757? That doesn't sound like a route I wanna be on

Not that you'd necessarily want to be on them either, but why are you surprised by this route in particular? PIT-CDG and JFK-VCE are both longer than JFK-DKR, and PHL-CDG is only about 70 nm shorter.
 
burnsie28
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:48 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 69):
Since your DTW is similar to mine, let's calculate MSP:

MSP:
CRJ: 156 * 50 = 7800
CR7: 12 * 65 = 780
CR9: 42 * 76 = 3192
E70: 12 * 69 = 828
E75: 57 * 76 = 4332
total regional = 16,932

D95: 2 * 125 = 250
319: 31 * 126 = 3906
320: 37 * 150 = 5550
M88: 11 * 149 = 1639
M90: 48 * 160 = 7860
738: 11 * 160 = 1760
752: 38 * 180 = 6840
753: 10 * 224 = 2240
763: 1 * 210 = 210
763: 2 * 261 = 522
764: 1 * 246 = 246
332: 2 * 239 = 478
333: 1 * 298 = 298
777: 1 * 271 = 271
total mainline = 32,070

total seats = ~49,002

50,200 (DTW) > 49,000 (MSP)

Thus, DTW has approx. 3% more seats than MSP. By your metric, it's a larger hub.

Your numbers are a little off. Here is the data for July

For a more accurate number for DL flights.

STATION DAILY AVERAGE for JULY

AMS: 4,667.94
ATL: 124,344.81
CDG: 1,800.10
CVG: 8,589.87
DTW: 45,696.10
JFK: 23,183.52
LGA: 19,934.00
MEM: 10,274.84
MSP: 46,666.68
NRT: 6,714.32
SLC: 25,042.48
 
delta2ual
Posts: 558
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 73):
Not CPH or ARN as far as I know. But it's true that the others were 767s before being downgauged to 757s. Either way, I see it as a highlight that there are 767s on the routes now.

Actually, I do know; I've worked on both of them. They were 767 prior to being 757.
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compensateme
Posts: 3279
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 85):
Your numbers are a little off. Here is the data for July

The numbers reached from FSDan's data are similar to the numbers provided by the source I subscribe to (which provides a slightly higher figure for DTW, and is dang close with the number concluded for MSP above). It's providing me with a 7-day average of slightly less than 49,000 for DTW, and slightly more than 48,000 for MSP.

In order for your average to be correct, DL would be offering merely 15,000 seats each Saturday from DTW; the actual number should be greater than 40,000.

(Data excludes Fourth of July Holiday reductions.)

[Edited 2012-06-09 09:38:51]
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PHX787
Posts: 7892
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting steex (Reply 84):
Not that you'd necessarily want to be on them either, but why are you surprised by this route in particular? PIT-CDG and JFK-VCE are both longer than JFK-DKR, and PHL-CDG is only about 70 nm shorter.

Wasn't this route operated by a 77L for a while? (JFK-DKR)
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deltacto
Posts: 447
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 88):

Wasn't this route operated by a 77L for a while? (JFK-DKR)

Delta's first service to Dakar was ATL-DKR-JNB in December 2006

http://www.globenewswire.com/newsroom/news.html?d=93773

The above link doesnt specify what type of 777, but DL did not have 77L's in the fleet til 2009

JFK-Dakar started June 2008

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2007/09/24/daily21.html
 
PHX787
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting deltacto (Reply 89):
The above link doesnt specify what type of 777, but DL did not have 77L's in the fleet til 2009

I see, clears a lot up. Thanks
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cokepopper
Posts: 507
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 81):
I'm assuming you meant JFK-VLC rather than JFK-VCE.  

yes thank you.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:42 pm

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 87):
In order for your average to be correct, DL would be offering merely 15,000 seats each Saturday from DTW; the actual number should be greater than 40,000.

(Data excludes Fourth of July Holiday reductions.)

This is the problem. His July numbers count 4th cuts. Also, the numbers he is posting are always a bit off. Not sure how Delta gets its AVG but I have seen it off ~50 flights before.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 88):

no. JFK-DKR started with a 67. JFK-DKR-CPT

Quoting deltacto (Reply 89):

I don't remember JNB being a T7, so it if was it wasn't for long. It went 767-300 to 767-400 then non-stop ATL-JNB with the 777-200LR.

And if it was start with a T7 it would have been an ER as Delta didn't have the LRs yet.
 
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compensateme
Posts: 3279
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 92):
This is the problem. His July numbers count 4th cuts. Also, the numbers he is posting are always a bit off. Not sure how Delta gets its AVG but I have seen it off ~50 flights before.

While I assume he likely acquired his data through an internal source, the numbers significantly deviate from current schedules. Holiday reductions and variable seating configurations aren't significant enough to penatrate into the difference. Dramatic schedule changes are impractical at this point, thus I would question a claim that the data represents "more accurate" numbers.

[Edited 2012-06-09 13:14:30]
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FSDan
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting steex (Reply 84):
PIT-CDG and JFK-VCE are both longer than JFK-DKR

JFK-VCE is actually a 764 route. JFK-VLC is a 757, though.

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 86):
Actually, I do know; I've worked on both of them. They were 767 prior to being 757.

Was that in the 1990s or early 2000s? I'm not too familiar with anything before 2007... When they re-started these routes last summer they were with 757s, right? Maybe I'm crazy.
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netjetandy
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:54 am

I'm a little surprised to see the 744 number for DTW

I was through there in April for the DTW-HKG flight and both times saw at least 4 747's at the gates with more in the ramp areas. I just remember being surprised by how many 747's were hanging around Detroit as I hadn't been there in a minute. Do they just have them all sitting there at gates not going anywhere? For there being only 2 a day there were more than that just sitting at the gates when I was there. Maybe some equipment changes or some charters going on at the time. Weird.

[Edited 2012-06-09 19:55:45]
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:30 am

I didn't read through the 500 responses but where are all the regular 777s (not the 77Ls)? Just 3 out of DTW and 1 out of MSP? No regular 777-200s at ATL??? No 777 service at JFK and only 3 77Ls at ATL? I remember ATL used to get a lot of 777s a few years back.
 
michman
Posts: 901
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:07 am

Quoting netjetandy (Reply 95):
I'm a little surprised to see the 744 number for DTW

I was through there in April for the DTW-HKG flight and both times saw at least 4 747's at the gates with more in the ramp areas. I just remember being surprised by how many 747's were hanging around Detroit as I hadn't been there in a minute. Do they just have them all sitting there at gates not going anywhere? For there being only 2 a day there were more than that just sitting at the gates when I was there. Maybe some equipment changes or some charters going on at the time. Weird.

Back in April, DL was alternating between a 744 and 777 on the DTW-PVG route ( in addition to the 744's on DTW-NRT and DTW-NGO routes). Could have been some charter ops going on as well.
 
FSDan
Topic Author
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:14 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 96):
I didn't read through the 500 responses but where are all the regular 777s (not the 77Ls)? Just 3 out of DTW and 1 out of MSP? No regular 777-200s at ATL??? No 777 service at JFK and only 3 77Ls at ATL? I remember ATL used to get a lot of 777s a few years back.

The 777s used to just about all be based out of ATL. Now they've been split up between LAX, MSP, DTW, ATL, and NRT. They seem to be fairly highly utilized though:

777 - 8 frames in fleet

LAX-NRT (1x weekly)
MSP-NRT (2x weekly)
DTW-ICN
DTW-PEK (5x weekly)
DTW-PVG
DTW-HKG (2x weekly)
NRT-HKG (2x weekly)
NRT-SIN (1x weekly)

77L - 10 frames in fleet

LAX-NRT (6x weekly)
LAX-SYD
MSP-NRT (5x weekly)
DTW-HKG (3x weekly)
ATL-LAX
ATL-JNB
ATL-DXB
NRT-HKG (5x weekly)
NRT-SIN (6x weekly)
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MSPNWA
Posts: 3645
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RE: DL Summer 2012 Departures By Hub And Aircraft Type

Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:24 am

Quoting netjetandy (Reply 95):
Do they just have them all sitting there at gates not going anywhere?

In a way, yes. Sometimes they will sit at a gate all day before their next flight. Plus they're used for some charter ops too.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 96):
I didn't read through the 500 responses but where are all the regular 777s (not the 77Ls)?

With just 8 frames in the fleet, that's about all they can do. They fly interport flights out of NRT as well, so that combined with the 4 round-trip long-hauls is it. Plus I see that N863DA has been out of action for a couple weeks. I wonder if the fleet is going through a round of heavy maintenance checks.

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