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nkops
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University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Since when is it the responsibility of the airline to advise of gun laws in other states..

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincitie...iversity-president-sues-delta.html
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dumbell2424
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting nkops (Thread starter):
Since when is it the responsibility of the airline to advise of gun laws in other states..

When the airline accepts the gun to go to JFK/LGA. That's when the agent should have notified him instead of sneakily calling the authorities.

Quote:
“Delta basically has an internal policy that said he’d be turned over to police,” said Steve Sanford, a lawyer for the Sioux Falls professor. “They had him arrested even though he followed their rules.”
http://www.argusleader.com/article/2...-over-gun?gcheck=1.&nclick_check=1
 
nkops
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting dumbell2424 (Reply 1):
When the airline accepts the gun to go to JFK/LGA. That's when the agent should have notified him instead of sneakily calling the authorities.

Before the guy travelled to NY , it was his responsibility to know the gun law in the state he is going to... unless I am reading the article wrong. The airline agent cannot expect to know every gun law for every state.
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Polot
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:26 pm

I don't know how liable Delta is in this incident, but they definitely should have let him know if they were planning to immediately call the police on him anyways.

Quoting nkops (Reply 2):
The airline agent cannot expect to know every gun law for every state.

But obviously someone at Delta at the airport knew the policy. And DL has hubs at JFK/LGA, agents should have a good understanding on what you are allowed to bring to NY and what you are not.

[Edited 2012-06-11 09:28:19]
 
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mayor
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting dumbell2424 (Reply 1):
When the airline accepts the gun to go to JFK/LGA. That's when the agent should have notified him instead of sneakily calling the authorities.

If he had driven to New York, instead, whose responsibility would it be, then? Doesn't it always fall to the gun owner?
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KaiGywer
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting poLot (Reply 3):
I don't know how liable Delta is in this incident, but they definitely should have let him know if they were planning to immediately call the police on him anyways.

If I remember right, I believe DL is required to call the Port Police on any gun checked to that destination. It is NOT the Delta agent's responsibility to make sure the person is legally carrying the gun or not.

Quoting nkops (Reply 2):
Before the guy travelled to NY , it was his responsibility to know the gun law in the state he is going to...

Which he readily stated he didn't... Maybe he should just stay in SD...
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nkops
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting dumbell2424 (Reply 1):
When the airline accepts the gun to go to JFK/LGA. That's when the agent should have notified him instead of sneakily calling the authorities.

The article is kind of deceiving... he was arrested coming back from NY, not on the outbound trip... it was the LGA agent who called the PANYNJ police
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johns624
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:38 pm

Quoting dumbell2424 (Reply 1):
When the airline accepts the gun to go to JFK/LGA. That's when the agent should have notified him instead of sneakily calling the authorities.

He was arrested leaving LGA.

Quoting nkops (Reply 2):
Before the guy travelled to NY , it was his responsibility to know the gun law in the state he is going to

Exactly. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Before everyone dumps on me, I'm a longtime gunowner and CCW holder. Everyone knows that NY (and IL, CA, MA, MD, NJ & HI) have extremely tough laws that you don't mess around with.
 
777STL
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 7):
Exactly. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Before everyone dumps on me, I'm a longtime gunowner and CCW holder. Everyone knows that NY (and IL, CA, MA, MD, NJ & HI) have extremely tough laws that you don't mess around with.

Indeed, and you're a responsible CCW holder. If you're going to take your weapon across state lines, it's absolutely your responsibility to understand the carry laws of the state you're entering. Delta is not a law enforcement organization and it's not their responsibility to ensure you're educated as to the proper concealed carry laws of your final destination. They're legally obligated to report someone violating the law and that's what they did. Delta is in no way at fault here.

You'd think someone with a lofty position such as university president would be able to take responsibility for their own actions. Guess not. It's always someone else's fault, right?
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B757Forever
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting dumbell2424 (Reply 1):
Quote:
“Delta basically has an internal policy that said he’d be turned over to police,” said Steve Sanford, a lawyer for the Sioux Falls professor. “They had him arrested even though he followed their rules.”

I just love how Mr Sanford makes claim to have knowledge of "internal policies" that he most likely knows nothing about. My guess is that DL is strictly following Port Authority law.
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ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:45 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 4):
If he had driven to New York, instead, whose responsibility would it be, then? Doesn't it always fall to the gun owner?

Always, always, always.

Any gun owner who wishes to travel with his gun in a locked case in his checked luggage should be alert to the New York trap. Any of the following are wise policies when traveling with a gun locked in a case in checked luggage:

(1) Never book a flight to fly to or through any New York airport.

(2) Avoid airlines that might change your flight itinerary to go through New York or New Jersey. If your flight to somewhere through IAH on UA could be changed to transit through EWR, and this is an unacceptable risk, don't book UA.

(3) If your airline alters your itinerary to go through a NY/NJ airport, refuse the change and request something else. If the airline will not accommodate your request, leave your gun at home or simply refuse to fly. Arrest and a felony defense is not worth the trip.

(4) If you wind up at a NY/NJ airport with a gun checked in your luggage, claim the luggage without speaking to anyone, rent a car, and drive as quickly as you can out of the state to Pennsylvania, where you can figure out what to do without the threat of arrest or a felony charge.
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mayor
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:24 am

Quoting B757forever (Reply 10):
My guess is that DL is strictly following Port Authority law.

Exactly. The only "internal" policy that DL might have is that they have to adhere to any local, state or federal laws.


We used to run into the same problem when accepting animals as cargo.......we had to meet certain Dept. of Agriculture rules about shipping animals and shippers had to adhere to them, although many of them thought we were being hardass about it when we enforced the rules. Problem is, it was us that would get fined, not the shipper.
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OOer
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:01 am

This is so stupid. Imagine a driver suing Ford because he/she got a DUI. It's Ford's fault he/she went to jail because they didn't tell them to not drink and drive. This is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard...and he's a university President? Wow...
 
Mir
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:03 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 13):
It's Ford's fault he/she went to jail because they didn't tell them to not drink and drive.

Though if you check a Ford owner's manual, I'd bet you'd see some sort of "do not drink and drive" warning in there.

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OOer
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:10 am

Delta's contract of carriage states...

c) Compliance with Applicable Law

It is the passenger’s sole responsibility to comply with government laws, regulations or restrictions dealing
with the possession or prohibition of firearms or other dangerous items. Disclosure of checking a firearm or
prohibited item must be made at the first point of contact with a Delta Representative and prior to the
security check point.
 
kpitrrat
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:17 am

Question.

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 11):
(3) If your airline alters your itinerary to go through a NY/NJ airport, refuse the change and request something else. If the airline will not accommodate your request, leave your gun at home or simply refuse to fly. Arrest and a felony defense is not worth the trip.

(4) If you wind up at a NY/NJ airport with a gun checked in your luggage, claim the luggage without speaking to anyone, rent a car, and drive as quickly as you can out of the state to Pennsylvania, where you can figure out what to do without the threat of arrest or a felony charge.

First off I agree 100% it is the gun owners responsibility to know the laws concerning gun ownership in the state that he/she is about to go to. That is simply part of the responsibilities of gun ownership, not like you are carrying around a curling iron...

That being said, along the lines of ContlEliteCMH's reply, what happens if you are booked to a state that is fine with you carrying a gun. However, due to unforeseen circumstances your flight is diverted to NY/NJ and have to deplane etc, even possibly stay the night. What happens then? Is there a protocol to follow written somewhere about what to do? Or simply follow along the lines of #4 in Contl's reply and hop the border to PA.

I actually laughed when I read that!
 
packcheer
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:22 am

What happened to Full Faith and Credit?

This is nor the normal interpretation of Full Faith and Credit, but New York should honor a legally declared, owned and transported fire arm from another state in the US.

My personal opinions aside, it is his responsibility to check the laws where he is traveling to. What did he need a gun for in New York?
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aklrno
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:47 am

I think "Don't leave home without it" applies to American Express cards, not guns. Maybe this guy is just a bit paranoid about NYC. He could have just left it home. If you really need to have a gun with you at all times maybe you just need some counseling. If he has a concealed carry permit in SD isn't he likely to be told what the law is elsewhere? This is a bogus lawsuit that should be tossed by the first judge who sees it.

If I see someone breaking the law I have every right to call the police. I've done it for drunk drivers, and I'd do it for illegal weapons. Actually, if the Delta employee checked the illegal gun, thus concealing it from the police, he would be guilty of a crime, misprision. Look it up.
 
bennett123
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:08 am

If you followed that principle, then does that not mean that the law in NY is different for New Yorkers and for visitors.

Sounds likely a recipe for chaos.
 
milesrich
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:59 am

Quoting dumbell2424 (Reply 1):
When the airline accepts the gun to go to JFK/LGA. That's when the agent should have notified him instead of sneakily calling the authorities.

If Delta had called the NYC authorities on his flight into NY, I would agree, they should have told him that he needed a local to carry permit. But in this case, the guy took the gun to NY illegally, and did nothing to remedy the situation. The policy at LGA must be to report all those who declare a weapon to see if the weapons are registered. Delta has no responsibility. The suit is BOGUS. I hope Delta not only wins, but the college president and his attorney get hit for attorneys fees by Delta.
 
johns624
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:57 am

Quoting kpitrrat (Reply 15):
what happens if you are booked to a state that is fine with you carrying a gun. However, due to unforeseen circumstances your flight is diverted to NY/NJ and have to deplane etc, even possibly stay the night. What happens then?

Do not pick up your luggage. Same thing applies if you're going through ORD.

Quoting Packcheer (Reply 16):
This is nor the normal interpretation of Full Faith and Credit, but New York should honor a legally declared, owned and transported fire arm from another state in the US.

You can pass through NY with guns if they are legal at your destination. The problem here is that NY was his destination and it wasn't legal.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 18):
If you followed that principle, then does that not mean that the law in NY is different for New Yorkers and for visitors

Yes it is. NY doesn't recognize any other states gun laws.
 
gizmonc
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:35 pm

His smiling face is posted on the university website: This goes to show that MORON is spelled with ALL CAPS
 
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seabosdca
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:43 pm

If Delta fights this suit, it will win. The question is whether it's cheaper to fight or just give the guy a token amount of money to go away.
 
B757Forever
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 21):
If Delta fights this suit, it will win. The question is whether it's cheaper to fight or just give the guy a token amount of money to go away.

Agreed, cheaper for DL to pay a token amount and walk away. This does however set a dangerous precident.
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steex
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting B757forever (Reply 9):
Quoting dumbell2424 (Reply 1):
Quote:
“Delta basically has an internal policy that said he’d be turned over to police,” said Steve Sanford, a lawyer for the Sioux Falls professor. “They had him arrested even though he followed their rules.”

I just love how Mr Sanford makes claim to have knowledge of "internal policies" that he most likely knows nothing about. My guess is that DL is strictly following Port Authority law.

I was bothered by this quote as well, though from a different angle. The statement “they had him arrested even though he followed their rules” makes it sound like Delta had him arrested for violation of Delta policy even though he attempted to follow it, as opposed to the reality that they merely called the authorities to address the situation of someone carrying a weapon. Mind you, Delta didn't "have him arrested," they called the authorities. It just so happens that the authorities found he didn't have the necessary permit to carry the weapon, and thus arrested him.
 
aztrainer
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 22):
If Delta fights this suit, it will win. The question is whether it's cheaper to fight or just give the guy a token amount of money to go away.
Quoting B757forever (Reply 23):
Agreed, cheaper for DL to pay a token amount and walk away. This does however set a dangerous precident.

I agree also, but then as part of the "settlement" he has to agree to never fly on another Delta flight. This may give him a second thought about a lawsuit.
 
nkops
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting B757forever (Reply 9):
My guess is that DL is strictly following Port Authority law.

Its not even Port Authority law.. it is state law....

I truly hope DL does not do a settlement, that would be very disappointing... this guy needs to take responsibility that he screwed up
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strfyr51
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:09 pm

could BE the man DIDN'T do DUE dilligence on his OWN part. Delta can't TELL hime what TO do but How did they know he Wasn't going there to commit Murder?? Just take his word that it's there for protection?? If you're THAT scared then Don't go to NEW YORK!! Though a Conceal law should be a nationwide authority, . But that's until you get some DIMWIT like G.Zimmerman who Screws the Pooch for EVERYBODY
 
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DocLightning
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting kpitrrat (Reply 15):
That being said, along the lines of ContlEliteCMH's reply, what happens if you are booked to a state that is fine with you carrying a gun. However, due to unforeseen circumstances your flight is diverted to NY/NJ and have to deplane etc, even possibly stay the night. What happens then?

You are arrested and put in jail. It has happened before.

It is my opinion that there should be a legal principle similar to ex-post-facto that states that if someone violates a law due to circumstances absolutely outside of his or control, the law should not be enforced. But that legal principle does not exist as part of the U.S. constitution and more than one responsible, otherwise law-abiding gun owner has been jailed in NY when such a diversion has occurred.

Frankly, unless you have a NY gun license, I would not board a plane that will fly anywhere even close to NY, lest you divert.
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seabosdca
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28):
It is my opinion that there should be a legal principle similar to ex-post-facto that states that if someone violates a law due to circumstances absolutely outside of his or control, the law should not be enforced. But that legal principle does not exist as part of the U.S. constitution

In general, there is such a principle in criminal law. Intent (or at least knowledge) is an element of most criminal offenses, and if you did not intend to go to NY and had no reasonable basis for expecting that you'd end up in NY, then proving intent to bring a gun into NY would be impossible. There are a few exceptions, called "strict liability" crimes. I have no idea if bringing a gun into New York without a permit is one of them and I'm too lazy to look it up.

But that will only help you once you get into court... the police can and will throw you in jail overnight upon discovering the gun, regardless of whether you are actually guilty of the crime or not.

[Edited 2012-06-12 10:49:28]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 29):
But that will only help you once you get into court... the police can and will throw you in jail overnight upon discovering the gun, regardless of whether you are actually guilty of the crime or not.

Right. Which is a problem because it's not as if being thrown into jail overnight is a minor inconvenience.
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seabosdca
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
Right. Which is a problem because it's not as if being thrown into jail overnight is a minor inconvenience.

But in the end, that's about the discretion of the police, more than anything the law says. They can throw you into jail for no reason at all if they want... you can't do anything about it until you can get into court, which will take at least a day if they want it to.

I agree that it would be asinine for the police to arrest someone who accidentally brought a gun into NY as a result of an unexpected diversion of a flight between non-NY airports.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 31):
I agree that it would be asinine for the police to arrest someone who accidentally brought a gun into NY as a result of an unexpected diversion of a flight between non-NY airports.

And yet they have done exactly that. But this leads me on a rant that is way off-topic, so I'll refrain. *bites tongue and stamps feet on the floor*
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Maverick623
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:58 pm

Quoting Packcheer (Reply 16):
What happened to Full Faith and Credit?

Doesn't apply to laws, only court documents.

Quoting Packcheer (Reply 16):
What did he need a gun for in New York?

Not to veer it off topic, but who cares?

Quoting johns624 (Reply 20):

You can pass through NY with guns if they are legal at your destination.

No you cannot. The law in NYC is quite clear: nobody may carry any firearm or "dangerous weapon" without a permit. The law itself is a blatant violation of the 2nd Amendment (and I hope will get struck down soon, like the DC law), but that's really for another thread.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):

Right. Which is a problem because it's not as if being thrown into jail overnight is a minor inconvenience.

Not to mention if they do charge you, then you have to make arrangements for court, hire a lawyer, etc...
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prebennorholm
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:51 pm

Quote from the article: Benedetto claims he was subjected to “horrendous conditions” while in jail, including physical, emotional and verbal abuse.
End of quote.

Why can't presumably adult people - Benedetto and NY police - find out in common that this was an accidental misunderstanding, and not an attempt on terror? Why do they shout and fight and jail? The police could have helped arrange legal shipment and fined the man a hundred quid so he would learn to google arms rules for his next trip.

Police is paid for helping and protecting ordinary people, also when they accidentally miss a sentence in the law books. Or maybe NY police gets a bonus for arresting as much people as possible?

And secondly, how can a man, who doesn't google arms rules of the states, to which he carries arms, how can he be a president of a university? !!! Sure he needs to go to school, but....
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azstar
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:58 pm

If the New York law REQUIRED the DL agent to notify law enforcement because the passenger was traveling with a firearm as checked luggage (and those guidelines are federal guidelines, not state or local) then DL was correct. However, if the DL agent took it upon himself to notify the authorities, then DL is wrong and should be required to pay compensatory damages.

[Edited 2012-06-12 16:00:00]
 
Maverick623
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 34):
Benedetto claims he was subjected to “horrendous conditions” while in jail, including physical, emotional and verbal abuse.

Yeah, that kind of made me laugh. As if jail is supposed to be a place of peace and solitude.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 34):
Why can't presumably adult people - Benedetto and NY police - find out in common that this was an accidental misunderstanding, and not an attempt on terror?

Ego.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 34):
The police could have helped arrange legal shipment and fined the man a hundred quid so he would learn to google arms rules for his next trip.

It's a power struggle. In their eyes, making things as hard as possible on the people who dare stand up for their rights is a good deterrent. Yet, guns still make it into the city.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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seabosdca
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:08 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 34):
Why do they shout and fight and jail? The police could have helped arrange legal shipment and fined the man a hundred quid so he would learn to google arms rules for his next trip.

Maybe that is how police work in Denmark. In the US, there are major political incentives for them to develop a culture of unremitting, unbending enforcement of rules to the maximum extent permitted by law. Their leaders are vilified for non-enforcement of rules or for selective enforcement of rules, so the alternative is to enforce fully every time, whether it's silly or not.
 
Maverick623
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting azstar (Reply 35):
If the New York law REQUIRED the DL agent to notify law enforcement because the passenger was traveling with a firearm as checked luggage (and those guidelines are federal guidelines, not state or local) then DL was correct. However, if the DL agent took it upon himself to notify the authorities, then DL is wrong and should be required to pay compensatory damages.

     

So, by that logic, I should pay the guy that broke into my house, because I am not required to notify the cops that I have an unwanted intruder?
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
aklrno
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:02 am

Quoting azstar (Reply 35):
If the New York law REQUIRED the DL agent to notify law enforcement because the passenger was traveling with a firearm as checked luggage (and those guidelines are federal guidelines, not state or local) then DL was correct. However, if the DL agent took it upon himself to notify the authorities, then DL is wrong and should be required to pay compensatory damages.

As I pointed out before, helping someone conceal a crime is itself illegal. You have no choice. It is OK to ignore it if you are taking no action yourself. If you think of checking the gun (thus taking it off his hands) concealment then the police must be informed. It doesn't matter if you think the original offense should not be a crime. It's not your choice.

Delta has an easy defense.
 
Maverick623
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:05 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 39):
As I pointed out before, helping someone conceal a crime is itself illegal. You have no choice. It is OK to ignore it if you are taking no action yourself. If you think of checking the gun (thus taking it off his hands) concealment then the police must be informed. It doesn't matter if you think the original offense should not be a crime. It's not your choice.

Delta has an easy defense.

You don't even have to go that far: you simply cannot hold somebody liable for reporting something when they think a crime is occurring.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
milesrich
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RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:15 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 40):
You don't even have to go that far: you simply cannot hold somebody liable for reporting something when they think a crime is occurring.

In Georgia, the immunity that the police have attaches to the citizen who reported the suspected crime if the police do any cursory investigation, and then make an arrest. Jacobs v. Shaw. (I am an attorney, but Jacobs is a friend of mine).
 
MSYPI7185
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:45 pm

RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:50 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 17):
If I see someone breaking the law I have every right to call the police. I've done it for drunk drivers, and I'd do it for illegal weapons. Actually, if the Delta employee checked the illegal gun, thus concealing it from the police, he would be guilty of a crime, misprision. Look it up.



One problem: The gun was legal he did not have a permit to have it in New York. There is a difference in having an "illegal gun" versus not having the proper permit. FYI for other on here. If you even enter NY state with a gun and immediately try to obtain a permit you will be jailed. Their permits have to be obtained prior to your arrival.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 27):
Delta can't TELL hime what TO do but How did they know he Wasn't going there to commit Murder?? Just take his word that it's there for protection?? If you're THAT scared then Don't go to NEW YORK!! Though a Conceal law should be a nationwide authority, . But that's until you get some DIMWIT like G.Zimmerman who Screws the Pooch for EVERYBODY



So let me see if I have this right, I own a gun and have a CCW permit in your mind there is a possibility I am going to commit murder? Most people 99.99% (do not take this number literally, but I would guess its pretty close) do carry firearms for protection, I definitely do. I do not plan to murder anyone, but I would like to protect myself if needed. I have been a few places in New York where I would have felt better if I had my gun. New York is not exactly safe because of this law. I would bet most murders with guns in New York are from people who live there and have a gun illegally. Then again a criminal does'nt give a damn about gun laws, if they are intent on killing someone. This law is successful in making criminals out of otherwise ordinary law abiding citizens.

I agree that my CCW permit should be nationwide, just like my drivers license is honored nationwide. Interestingly enough not honoring my drivers license in New York, would be more constitutional than this gun law is.

Did Zimmerman have a CCW for FL? I have to look it up, but I do not remember hearing this. Did Zimmerman set out to kill someone that night? I think I will wait for the trial and see what evidence is presented before I make this judgement.

MD
 
Newark727
Posts: 2243
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:02 am

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 42):
I agree that my CCW permit should be nationwide, just like my drivers license is honored nationwide.

Disagree. Different states have different standards for issuing permits, so such a nationwide allowance would make the easiest state to get a permit in the law of the entire country.

[Edited 2012-06-13 03:03:08]
 
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moo
Posts: 5066
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:14 am

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 42):
One problem: The gun was legal he did not have a permit to have it in New York. There is a difference in having an "illegal gun" versus not having the proper permit

I'm pretty sure the difference between having a "legal" gun and an "illegal" gun is the permit that allows one to have it in your possession in the manner you currently have it.

So the gun could be properly *owned* (ie, not stolen, bought from a reputable dealer as new for example), just entirely not legal if the permit doesn't allow you to own it.
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4123
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 42):
One problem: The gun was legal he did not have a permit to have it in New York. There is a difference in having an "illegal gun" versus not having the proper permit. FYI for other on here. If you even enter NY state with a gun and immediately try to obtain a permit you will be jailed. Their permits have to be obtained prior to your arrival

So until the permit was obtained, it still would be an illegal gun . . . .

Not familar with US or NY laws, but I would expect that if the DL agent knew the guy was carrying a gun without a proper permit, the DL agent would be violating laws if he/she did not report it to the police as such. What happens then, off course, is outside DL's control.

Rgds,
PW100
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
pygmalion
Posts: 837
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:47 am

RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:32 pm

Lets clear some things up...

there is a federal law that allows a gun owner to transport an unloaded handgun between states. That includes in NY as long as they are only passing through.

NY law says that if you are "stopping or staying" in NY state, you must have a permit for a handgun and those permits are nearly impossible to get.

To transport a handgun on a commercial airliner, the federal law states the owner must surrender the unloaded hand gun to the carrier to be transported in checked baggage. This is part of the federal "safe transport" law

If you are just going through a NY airport on a connecting flight on your way somewhere else... the airline keeps your handgun in checked bags and you are legal.

If you get diverted to NY and and end up spending the night, if you do not collect your bag with the handgun in it... you are still "in transit" through NY and you are legal.

Even if you drive or take a train through NY state and you keep your legal handgun locked unloaded in your vehicle as per the federal law... you should still be legal as long as you don't "stop" in NY. The law allows for hotel stays as long as you are in transit etc... but this is a grey area where NY could still make your life hell but you would probably prevail in court as the Federal Law does over ride the state one... as long as you can make the case you are "in transit".

its a bit goofy but the federal law is there.

This person stayed in NY in possession of his hand gun. He boarded a plane in NY possessing a handgun without a permit and that did him in. He should have left his bag with the airline. His only hope is to convince a court he was in compliance with the federal transport law. Sounds like he may not have been, if he was in NY for any other reason than an overnight kind of stopover in his travel.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 5066
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting pygmalion (Reply 46):
His only hope is to convince a court he was in compliance with the federal transport law. Sounds like he may not have been, if he was in NY for any other reason than an overnight kind of stopover in his travel.

I would be in no doubt that the judge would throw such a defence out - being "in transit" means travelling from A to C, stopping over in B (being NY in this case). This guy was travelling A to A, with some time in B - thats not "in transit" thats "reached destination and returning".
 
nkops
Topic Author
Posts: 2247
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting pygmalion (Reply 46):
His only hope is to convince a court he was in compliance with the federal transport law.

He flew to NY on Sep 28th and returned Oct 2... probably can't convince judge it was a stayover..
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:21 am

RE: University Pres Sues Delta Over Gun Incident

Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting azstar (Reply 35):
DL is wrong and should be required to pay compensatory damages.

Permit or no permit, every airline is required to report when a passenger checks a bag with a firearm (at least in NYC). The passenger signs a red card, shows credentials to police officer, P.O. records serial number and Pax info, places red card in case, and records airline agent ID info. Then the pax locks the case and follows the P.O. to the CTX machine.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 40):
You don't even have to go that far: you simply cannot hold somebody liable for reporting something when they think a crime is occurring.

In NYC, 'See something, say something' is crammed down our throats.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue

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