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atlflyer
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Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:17 pm

According to the Boeing and Airbus websites, the A380 and 777 have a 27 inch (68cm) cabin width difference. So why would an airline like Emirates or Air France which puts 10 abreast on its 777s also put 10 abreast on their A380s when they could easily make it 11 abreast?

Boeing wanted to make the 787 spacious for economy class customers as the A380 is, but airlines besides a handful are opting for a more dense configuration. Why is Airbus recently more successful at getting customers to choose a spacious configuration for economy class passengers than Boeing?

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/pf/pf_200product.html
http://www.airbus.com/aircraftfamili...380family/a380-800/specifications/
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:23 pm

Quoting Atlflyer (Thread starter):
According to the Boeing and Airbus websites, the A380 and 777 have a 27 inch (68cm) cabin width difference. So why would an airline like Emirates or Air France which puts 10 abreast on its 777s also put 10 abreast on their A380s when they could easily make it 11 abreast?

One question is whether it has been certified for evacuation with that density.
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ikramerica
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:34 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
One question is whether it has been certified for evacuation with that density.

I believe it has been certified for many more pax than any premium carrier can possibly stuff it in.

I expect this to be a likely outcome with the higher weight A388s coming. 3-5-3 all Y downstairs, premium upstairs (including 2-4-2 premium Y).
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Tobias2702
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
One question is whether it has been certified for evacuation with that density.

Air Austral planned to operate all-economy class configured A380s with something like 840 pax, so the aircraft is certainly certified for full load?
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AZA330
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:36 pm

Ssshhh... do not give anyone any ideas...  

I wonder if the feeling you have with 3-4-3 on a 777 is actually better or worse than the one you would have with a 3-5-3 set up on the A380. The evacuation issue is a good point. I also wonder if airlines really need to have those extra seats on an airplane that can easily and comfortably fit more than 400 people already....
 
sandyb123
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:36 pm

This has been discussed previously...

Can An A380 Seat 3-5-3 In Coach (by 747400sp Nov 30 2008 in Civil Aviation)

Sandyb123
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Jean Leloup
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
One question is whether it has been certified for evacuation with that density.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):

Easily. The main deck of the A380 is certified for 538 passengers. The current highest number of seats on a main deck is 427, in EK's slightly higher density version. This is spread out over 48 rows, as 5 or 6 rows don't go all the way across due to galleys, staircase, etc. You could, in fact, add TWO seats to every row (making 12 across) and still not reach maximum certified capacity.

Obviously that scenario is not realistic, so, more to the point: You could have, say, 48 rows at 11 across, and one row at 10 across, for a total of 538.

In reality, though, there seems to be little interest in this happening At first glance, I don't think even Air Austral was planning on having 11 across in their (cancelled?) configuration; at least it doesn't seem like they would have to do it in order to cram in 840 seats.

I am curious as to why. Perhaps adding the extra weight from that extra column of passengers would prevent any useful cargo load or something or perhaps compromise performance even without cargo? Certainly it would make the plane less comfortable, but that rarely seems to be an issue for airlines.

JL
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roseflyer
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:50 pm

The 777 max cabin width is not at the same height in relation to the floor as the A380 or any Airbus plane, so it is not completely an apples to apples comparison.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
mikey72
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:51 pm

Arrggh.....yuck.....that would be very DC10-esque !!

Some poor sod in the middle seat and the crew arguing about whose turn it is to serve him !!
Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
 
AADC10
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 8):
Arrggh.....yuck.....that would be very DC10-esque !!

Most DC-10s started out at 2-4-2 and most early 747s started out at 2-4-3 (or was it 3-4-2?). After the oil embargo, more seats got shoved in. Cramming in more seats on long haul does not seem to have hurt AF/KL much so it looks like there will be yet another race to the bottom. You can fly for 16 hours in seats the same size as on a 50 seat RJ.
 
questions
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:23 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 9):
You can fly for 16 hours in seats the same size as on a 50 seat RJ.

Maybe one "can"... but I would not. I'm 5'11", 170lbs, and athletically fit. I find 50-seat RJs extremely uncomfortable for any flight over one hour. If that were the only offering on a 16 hour flight I simply would not go. Too bad employer... or save more money for that holiday.
 
gigneil
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:51 am

Qantas originally released a seatmap with 3-5-3 in coach.

NS
 
jporterfi
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:16 am

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 3):
Air Austral planned to operate all-economy class configured A380s with something like 840 pax, so the aircraft is certainly certified for full load?

Are they still planning on doing this? I'd love to fly on that, or at least see pics of it if it became a reality!
PPC (ASEL) | Aircraft Flown: PA28, C172, DA20
 
Burkhard
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:16 am

For me the answer is:

Currently, the A380 define the prime product of a flagship of a premium airline. It is quiet, spacious, comfortable, what you show in ads and offer to prime costumors, who are able to pay good prices.
The 77W is just the opposite: Loud and cramped, but brings an acceptable CASM in such a configuration. So airlines that use these two configuration can give each market what fits best.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:28 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 13):

For me the answer is:

Currently, the A380 define the prime product of a flagship of a premium airline. It is quiet, spacious, comfortable, what you show in ads and offer to prime costumors, who are able to pay good prices.
The 77W is just the opposite: Loud and cramped, but brings an acceptable CASM in such a configuration. So airlines that use these two configuration can give each market what fits best.

It seems sensible though to try and keep your internal cabin design consistent, especially when the A380 and 77W will often fly the same routes.
For example, SQ are adding a 4th LHR flight, operated by a 77W, to their 3 existing A380 flights. Their 77Ws are 9Y so the comfort level is consistent, it would be very odd to have 2 flights on the same route with significantly different levels of comfort.
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sweair
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:21 am

3-3-3 in a 777 is very comfortable, more so than the 3-3-3 in the 350 will be.
 
Burkhard
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:29 am

Yes, I referred to the comparison at AF and EK as the OP did.
 
sweair
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:03 am

Not to be super negative but I think the growing fuel bills will make more airlines cram its airframes. Just go ask passengers what they prefer, lower rates or more seating space. Most people are cheap, they want to fly at a low cost. If you cant have both I am afraid most would say lower ticket price.
 
softrally
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:23 pm

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 12):
Are they still planning on doing this? I'd love to fly on that, or at least see pics of it if it became a reality!

Air Austral cancelled the order a while ago. It was mention in the forum; AirAustral (UU) Will Cancel 2 A380 Order (2009) (by B738FlyUIA May 28 2012 in Civil Aviation)
Flown on: 738, 744, 762/763, 772, 77W, 788, A306, A318/319/320/321, A332/333, E145, E190, CRJ700
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:32 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 17):

Not to be super negative but I think the growing fuel bills will make more airlines cram its airframes. Just go ask passengers what they prefer, lower rates or more seating space. Most people are cheap, they want to fly at a low cost. If you cant have both I am afraid most would say lower ticket price.

That's exactly what most will say.


That said, is 3-5-3 really much worse than a 3-4-3? It's maybe 2% worse, right?  


Anyway, wait 5 years, and I'm sure someone will do it. Look at the 777 transition to 3-4-3 occurring on many carriers.
 
georgiaame
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:36 pm

3-5-3 certainly would insure maximum discomfort for the maximum number of fliers. 3 whole lengths of seats in which passengers are forced to squirm over 2 other fellow passengers. Brilliant move! And we can improve on that! Reduce the pitch at tad to squeeze in more rows, well, Ryan Air might be interested. A long time ago, I fell in love with Y in the 767, because of the 2-3-2 arrangement. Dramatically more comfortable to fly than any prior aircraft (Okay, the DC-9 family has always been 2-3). But light years ahead of standard 3-3, which I still detest on the 737/757. Airbus came out with the 340 family of 2-4-2, and again, minimal jumping over your fellow flier (and quieter to boot). When you think about it, the L1011 with 2-5-2 was more comfortable than 3-3, except for that single soul stuck in the middle of the 5. But I ain't goin nowhere in a 380 with 11 abreast seating. You couldn't pay me to get onto that aircraft.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
trent1000
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:53 pm

Surprisingly, BC as one of Japan's LCCs, intends to put only 394 seats on its A380s. 144 business class, 60 inch pitch and 280 in premium economy with 38 inch pitch. Not too bad for both a long haul flight and a LCC.

]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skymark_Airlines

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 5):
This has been discussed previously...

I think it's fair to recycle this topic again after three and a half years, especially as more carriers order & configure their A380s.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:10 pm

I expect we will eventually see 3+5+3 on the A380-800 on Economy to improve CASM, but the underlying operating economics of the model will keep such a configuration at bay for some time.
 
something
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:26 pm

The A380 encourages people to choose an airline over another. A 3-5-3 configuration would do just the opposite. Yet the net result wouldn't be neutral.

I could see people consciously avoiding the A380 if not only you had to squeezy inside your seat, but also had a 45% chance of ending up with a middle seat.

Some airlines could pull this off. Basically every ''holiday charter'' airline should be able to do it. I just don't see any of these airlines buying A380s. They're expensive to buy and, while a goldmine in the summers, a liability for the rest of the year. Besides, typical holiday destination airports are usually not A380 ready.
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astuteman
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 6):
I am curious as to why. Perhaps adding the extra weight from that extra column of passengers would prevent any useful cargo load or something or perhaps compromise performance even without cargo? Certainly it would make the plane less comfortable, but that rarely seems to be an issue for airlines.

There's a bit of me that says I read that Airbus deliberately made the maindeck insufficiently strong to accomodate 11-across.
One of the prime reasons being that you can get the 850 odd seats it is certified for in it anyway without going 11-across.
Perhaps  
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 7):
The 777 max cabin width is not at the same height in relation to the floor as the A380 or any Airbus plane, so it is not completely an apples to apples comparison.

At armrest height, the difference is 19 inches. How's that for apples to apples  
A380 maindeck 11-across would be pretty much the same seats as a 777 at 10-across

Quoting sweair (Reply 17):
Just go ask passengers what they prefer, lower rates or more seating space

Both of course. Which is where the A380 squarely aims at  
Quoting sweair (Reply 17):
Most people are cheap

And fussy with it

Rgds
 
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Stitch
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:59 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 24):
There's a bit of me that says I read that Airbus deliberately made the maindeck insufficiently strong to accomodate 11-across.

I'd be a bit concerned if a extra couple of tons of weight would impact the structural integrity of the floor. Then again, maybe that is why the freighter never resonated with general cargo operators.  

Seriously, I expect the floor is good for it and if for some reason it is not, Airbus would strengthen it so it could be if customers at some future date demand 3+5+3. But again, I don't really see a need for it anytime soon with the A380-800's current CASM advantage and Airbus (and passengers) would surely prefer to lower the CASM via 10-abreast on the A380-900 as opposed to 11-abreast on the A380-800.

Hey, maybe the inability to support 11-abreast is a conspiracy by Airbus to force customers to up-gauge to the A380-900!    (I jest, of course).
 
ODwyerPW
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:21 pm

RyanAir. 2022. Launch customer for 6 of the A380-900. 3X6X3 with 16" seats at 28" pitch. London to New York 3X daily. RoundTrip $200. Tokyo to LosAngeles 3X daily. RoundTrip $200.

Of course I am not being serious. Can you imagine it?
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YULWinterSkies
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:22 pm

I am sure it will eventually be done. You can probably rely on EK and AF to be some of the pioneers. Yep, I could see that happen.

Quoting something (Reply 23):
The A380 encourages people to choose an airline over another. A 3-5-3 configuration would do just the opposite. Yet the net result wouldn't be neutral.

Not a problem, the added comfort reputation of the A380 will be established by then. Plus, the A380 attracts customers over another airline, only to some extent. Airfare does the other part of the job.

Quoting odwyerpw (Reply 26):
RyanAir. 2022. Launch customer for 6 of the A380-900. 3X6X3 with 16" seats at 28" pitch. London to New York 3X daily. RoundTrip $200. Tokyo to LosAngeles 3X daily. RoundTrip $200.

Of course I am not being serious. Can you imagine it?

If that were true, the cabin would be full, no worries. It would fly LTN-BDL, however. Not LHR-JFK.
When I doubt... go running!
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:50 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 27):
If that were true, the cabin would be full, no worries. It would fly LTN-BDL, however. Not LHR-JFK.

They'll market it as 2 flights - London to "Greater New York" and London to "Greater Boston"
 
atlflyer
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 13):

Definitely strange that EK and AF both fly the A380 and 777 to JFK. I guess the answer is that most passengers don't really notice a difference.
 
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par13del
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting AZA330 (Reply 4):
I wonder if the feeling you have with 3-4-3 on a 777 is actually better or worse than the one you would have with a 3-5-3 set up on the A380.

Depends on too many variables such as the actual width difference between the two a/c and the with of the seats 17" and the pitch between seat rows.

Quoting sweair (Reply 17):
Not to be super negative but I think the growing fuel bills will make more airlines cram its airframes.

Ultimately whether we like it or not, that is what it comes down to. Boeing's initial thought of seating during the design phase of its 787 went out the door, at the end of the day this is under the control of the airlines, unless an OEM is able to design an a/c that can only accomodate a fixed seating arrangement
 
astuteman
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:11 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):
I'd be a bit concerned if a extra couple of tons of weight would impact the structural integrity of the floor

I'd suggest that 40 or 50 extra passengers, plus seats, plus IFE, galleys, toilets etc, is a bit more than "a couple of tons" - nearer 8t - 10t I'd guess. But I take your point.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):
But again, I don't really see a need for it anytime soon

As I said above, I'm sceptical that you'll ever see it, as 800 - 850 can be done all Y still with 10-abreast on the maindeck..

Rgds
 
747400sp
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:36 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 5):
This has been discussed previously...

Can An A380 Seat 3-5-3 In Coach (by 747400sp Nov 30 2008 in Civil Aviation)

Sandyb123






It feels good, to have beat somebody to the punch.     
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:01 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 9):
Most DC-10s started out at 2-4-2 and most early 747s started out at 2-4-3 (or was it 3-4-2?).

Early 747s were 3-4-2.


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Quoting Atlflyer (Reply 29):
Quoting Burkhard (Reply 13):

Definitely strange that EK and AF both fly the A380 and 777 to JFK. I guess the answer is that most passengers don't really notice a difference.

Most Y class passengers don't fly often enough to be aware of the differences. All they care about is the fare. However, those passengers who are aware, including many business travellers now forced to fly Y class by their company travel policies, will avoid 10-abreast 777s if there are any other options which there usuallly are.
 
airbazar
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RE: Why Not 3-5-3 On The A380?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:30 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 9):
Cramming in more seats on long haul does not seem to have hurt AF/KL much so it looks like there will be yet another race to the bottom.

LOL, I would say it has. Have you checked AF/KL's finances lately? I for one will never set foot in an AF 773 Y cabin, no tmatter how cheap they may want to seel me the ticket.

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