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klmcedric
Topic Author
Posts: 696
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 11:19 pm

KLM Near Future Equipment To The Caribbean?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:44 pm

With the gradual exit of the MD11 in KL's fleet I hear lot's of stories concerning equipment deployment .
The 777 is going to PTY next winter, that's confirmed. What I'm wondering is what
will happen with BON & AUA. A 777 pilot told me that the 777 will also take over the BON route.
Experience has told me that pilots sometimes tend to invent stuff and use their credibility to spread rumours around.

And that's why I'm checking here, where some members have extensive and reliable knowledge in KLM ops,
if they know anything about what planes will serve the mid-atlantic in the near future.

Personally I would be surprised to see 777 in BON or AUA, seems more like a 332 or 333 destination.

I'm also hoping for continued deployment of the 777 in YVR next winter, so any inside info on this matter is highly appreciated.

Kind regards,
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM Near Future Equipment To The Caribbean?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:06 pm

Even after the withdrawal of some MD11s, KLM will continue to operate a number of them in the near future, and I would expect that the holiday flights to BON, AUA and HAV will be among the last ones that will continue to be operated by MD11. BON, AUA, limited CUR, YUL and IKA will still be MD11 stations next summer. YVR will typically alternate between A332 in winter and B772 in summer. PTY is still up in the air for next summer. It is tentatively planned to revert to MD11 after the B772 will operate in winter, but that is not set in stone.
 
A388
Posts: 8000
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RE: KLM Near Future Equipment To The Caribbean?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting klmcedric (Thread starter):
Personally I would be surprised to see 777 in BON or AUA, seems more like a 332 or 333 destination.

The A332 is too small for the Caribbean routes and the A333 doesn't have the range to operate to the Caribbean without restrictions. Using the A330 also means sacrificing precious cargo (due to weight penalties) which KLM will not do. Expect the 772 to replace the MD11 routes when the MD11 is fully phased out while the 77W will eventually replace the 744's being used to the Caribbean. Both passenger and cargo wise this makes perfect sense.

A388
 
SASMD82
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RE: KLM Near Future Equipment To The Caribbean?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 2):
the A333 doesn't have the range to operate to operate to the Caribean without restrictions

According to the Airbus website, the range of an A333 is 10,800 km. AMS-BON is about 8,800 km. No problem at all. I think it will be the most suitable plane in KL's fleet. The A332 and 772 are too premium (from KL's perspective) and the 77W is too big.

Personally I think that the MD-11 will remain on these routes.

Quoting klmcedric (Thread starter):
The 777 is going to PTY next winter, that's confirmed.

That is strange. Does PTY require that much C capacity?

BTW where does the B772 capacity come from?
 
A388
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RE: KLM Near Future Equipment To The Caribbean?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:08 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 3):
According to the Airbus website, the range of an A333 is 10,800 km. AMS-BON is about 8,800 km. No problem at all.

The Airbus website doesn't state airline specifics, just general data assumptions. The KL A333 what I understood doesn't have enough fuel tanks (lack of center fuel tank what I understood?) making the aircraft not well suited for Caribbean operations unless flying with weight restrictions. At full payload, yes it is a problem for their A333.

A388



[Edited 2012-06-14 13:15:04]
 
A388
Posts: 8000
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RE: KLM Near Future Equipment To The Caribbean?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 3):
and the 77W is too big.

How can the KLM 77W be too big if it has an almost identical seat count compared to their 744's which is also used to the Caribbean (CUR and SXM)...???

A388
 
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seabosdca
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RE: KLM Near Future Equipment To The Caribbean?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 3):
According to the Airbus website, the range of an A333 is 10,800 km. AMS-BON is about 8,800 km. No problem at all.

Range is not nearly that simple. What you see on the website is calculated in still air using a typical passenger load and no cargo. You have to take winds, field conditions reserves, cargo, special operating conditions, and a lot of other variables into account. I haven't done any numbers but it seems quite likely to me that an A333 would face serious weight restrictions on AMS-BON.
 
Joost
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: KLM Near Future Equipment To The Caribbean?

Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 3):
According to the Airbus website, the range of an A333 is 10,800 km. AMS-BON is about 8,800 km. No problem at all.

The websites of both Boeing and Airbus use a very general assumption for their single range quote: a payload, based on their typical seat count, using average pax weight and average bag weight, but no additional cargo.

At the quoted 10,800km, about 13t payload compared to maximum structural payload, is sacrificed.

The number of pax used by Airbus and Boeing is usually relatively high (high-density configs) but in the case of KLM, this is quite representative: Airbus states 295 pax for the A333; KL has 292 seats. (But LH, for example, only has 221 seats).

Now, with a light cargo load and favorable winds, the 333 might do it, but it doesn't really seem to be a well-suited aircraft. The 772, M11 and 332 are probably better; the 333s can be used perfectly on routes to east coast USA, Canada, Middle East and large parts of Africa.

Quoting A388 (Reply 4):
The Airbus website doesn't state airline specifics, just general data assumptions. The KL A333 what I understood doesn't have enough fuel tanks (lack of center fuel tank what I understood?) making the aircraft not well suited
for Caribbean operations unless flying with weight restrictions. At full payload, yes it is a problem for their A333.

KLs 333s indeed do not have a center tank, but this isn't airline-specific: all A333s lack the center tank, and all A332s have it.

KLs 333s are very new and AFAIK the highest gross weight variant available (233t).

Quoting A388 (Reply 5):
How can the KLM 77W be too big if it has an almost identical seat count compared to their 744's which is also used to the Caribbean (CUR and SXM)...???

Indeed; and the 77W might even be better suited as it has more Y and less C-seats than the 744. For now, however, the 77Ws are primarily used on the very long routes (KUL-CGK, SIN-DPS, GRU, BKK) as here, their fuel efficiency is really needed compared to the 744s.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 3):
BTW where does the B772 capacity come from?

Two new 77Ws (PH-BVG and PH-BVI) well be added to the fleet this summer. These will take over quite some 772-flights (selected flights on AMS-SIN-DPS, AMS-JNB, AMS-BKK, AMS-KIX, AMS-UIO-GYE, AMS-TPE-MNL); in turn, 772s take over M11 routes (AMS-YVR, AMS-PTY).
 
penguins
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RE: KLM Near Future Equipment To The Caribbean?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:07 am

A bit of topic but here it goes: How long will we see the MD-11 in SFO?
 
AA B777-200
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RE: KLM Near Future Equipment To The Caribbean?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:55 am

Penguins.... We'll have to hope, wait and see. Currently the 744 is deployed on AMS-SFO and I believe that the A330 wil be covering SFO this winter.....
 
SASMD82
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RE: KLM Near Future Equipment To The Caribbean?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:05 am

Guys, LH uses the A333 for the FRA-SEA leg. Thats 5,100 nm according to our Great Circle Mapper friend. AMS-BON is 'only' 4,800 nm. I really can't imagine that LH - with the more suitable A343 available - accepts this route with a tremendous amount of payload restrictions......

My unanswered question: do BON and PTY (or any other Caribean destination of KL) require that much C and J capacity as the 772 offers?

Quoting A388 (Reply 5):
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 3):
and the 77W is too big.

How can the KLM 77W be too big if it has an almost identical seat count compared to their 744's which is also used to the Caribbean (CUR and SXM)...???

You have a point....I missed that!  

And we should that this plane is - in terms of passenger comfort - the least popular plane in KLs longhaul fleet. Deploying it to the leisure markets in the Caribean makes sense.
 
Joost
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: KLM Near Future Equipment To The Caribbean?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:39 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 10):
Guys, LH uses the A333 for the FRA-SEA leg. Thats 5,100 nm according to our Great Circle Mapper friend. AMS-BON is 'only' 4,800 nm. I really can't imagine that LH - with the more suitable A343 available - accepts this route with a tremendous amount of payload restrictions......

That's true, but there are many aspects to take into consideration:

- LH has only 221 seats in its 333s, compared to 292 for KL. It's a difference of 7t payload, which makes a huge difference
- The 333 is the smallest and lowest trip-cost airplane in LHs fleet. Now if happens that FRA-SEA sees relatively low loads, it can make sense to use the 333 and fly some empty seats, rather than filling seats with dirt-cheap fares on the 343.
- Direction of cargo. Although I have no specific insight in the cargo flows between FRA and SEA, I can imagine that SEA > FRA is busier than FRA > SEA, simply because of the amount of Boeing spare parts being flown to Europe. SEA > FRA is considerably shorter than FRA > SEA (because of the winds), and this might well be within the 333s envelope.
- A payload hit may sound worse than it is. Many planes take a payload hit from Max Structural Payload. All 744s and all 332s from SIN, KUL, JNB, GRU, GIG or EZE to Europe take a payload hit. But it still makes sense flying it. Especially at today's cargo rates, a payload hit isn't a deal breaker.

For the 333, in KLs config, to the Caribbean, it all comes down to the cargo market. If cargo here is high-yielding, a 772 can be more attractive. If the cargo market is weak, the 333 can actually make sense.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 10):
My unanswered question: do BON and PTY (or any other Caribean destination of KL) require that much C and J capacity as the 772 offers?

Not necessarily, but aircraft choice is always a mix between range, fuel consumption, scheduling with other routes, cargo demand, J-demand and Y-demand. Indeed, for PTY, from M11 to 772 is a big increase in J-seats.

And now, on routes to the Caribean, quite some C-seats are flown by the 744s (42C 373Y).

Last winters schedule:

KL735/6 AMS - CUR - AMS 744 x27
KL761 AMS - CUR - BON - AMS M11 16
KL765 AMS - AUA - BON - AMS M11 24
KL767 AMS - AUA - BON - AMS M11 357
KL785 AMS - SXM - CUR - AMS 744 257
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4101
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: KLM Near Future Equipment To The Caribbean?

Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting joost (Reply 11):
And now, on routes to the Caribean, quite some C-seats are flown by the 744s (42C 373Y).

The lower deck J seats on these flights are often sold as Y, effectively reducing the number of revenue J seats to 24.

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