Why Are AF Planes So Filthy?

QANTAS747-438 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:09 am

Why is it that the exterior of AirFrance planes are so dirty? Day after day at LAX, 777s taxi by with black streaks coming from every door as well as paint missing from various spots. Just this week, an AF A380 (a new plane) had the bottom part of the "C" in "AIR FRANCE" missing... it was just a bare metal spot where paint once was.

What happens to AF planes to cause this?

3DoorsDown · Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:33 am

Think really hard about it and the answer will appear. The answer is in your question.

spiritair97 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:12 am

I was wondering this myself. It disturbed me that I saw F-HPJA fly by into JFK and, while it was still at about 3500ft, I could see the filth very clearly. Air France claims that they are elegant, but if you see their planes from the outside, it is hard to believe that it is true.

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 1):

Think really hard about it and the answer will appear. The answer is in your question.

I don't get what you mean?

AngMoh · Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:29 am

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Thread starter):
Why is it that the exterior of AirFrance planes are so dirty? Day after day at LAX, 777s taxi by with black streaks coming from every door as well as paint missing from various spots. Just this week, an AF A380 (a new plane) had the bottom part of the "C" in "AIR FRANCE" missing... it was just a bare metal spot where paint once was.

What happens to AF planes to cause this?

They want to differentiate themselves from LH who wash their planes every morning before 1st flight

vincewy · Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:34 am

Filthy? At least they clean the cabins. Once you see the cabins inside NK, your opinions will change.

spiritair97 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:47 am

Quoting vincewy (Reply 4):

O trust me, I've experienced the NK cabins WAAAY too many times before. .

SFOA380 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:44 am

I was just marveling about this myself this afternoon! There were two AF heavies on the ground at SFO--a 744 and a 772--both dirty beyond belief. Meanwhile the LH 388 was pulling around the back side of G absolutely glistening in the sun and spotless... It is a cultural thing that I can talk about because I am both French and German... If you have been to both places, you know what I am talking about...

AngMoh · Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:27 am

Quoting SFOA380 (Reply 6):
I was just marveling about this myself this afternoon! There were two AF heavies on the ground at SFO--a 744 and a 772--both dirty beyond belief. Meanwhile the LH 388 was pulling around the back side of G absolutely glistening in the sun and spotless... It is a cultural thing that I can talk about because I am both French and German... If you have been to both places, you know what I am talking about...

I am always amazed in Frankfurt. You arrive at night, and the terminal is a drab as ever, but at the gates the LH fleet is just sparkling under the various lights.
In CDG, the AF planes match the dull dirty grey of the terminals, maybe to fashionably blend in. It's just depressing.

BMI727 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:09 am

Quoting SFOA380 (Reply 6):
It is a cultural thing that I can talk about because I am both French and German... If you have been to both places, you know what I am talking about...

Germans and Swiss do tend to be very tidy and orderly about everything.

Quoting AngMoh (Reply 7):
In CDG, the AF planes match the dull dirty grey of the terminals, maybe to fashionably blend in. It's just depressing.

The rest of Paris and France in general isn't bad at all. Old perhaps, but generally clean and well maintained unlike certain other places like Italy. My theory is that the cleaning people just didn't come back from one of their weekly strikes.

CDG airport, however, looks like it was built by Communists.

QANTAS747-438 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:34 am

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 2):
I was wondering this myself. It disturbed me that I saw F-HPJA fly by into JFK

I think that was the 380 I saw... F-HPJA. Looked horrible.

I guess I'm just shocked at why this seems to be an AF issue and it's on ALL their planes.

Quoting vincewy (Reply 4):
Filthy? At least they clean the cabins. Once you see the cabins inside NK, your opinions will change.

I'm only talking about exteriors. Never seen an AF interior.

AF1624 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:57 am

Oh boy, here we go again...

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
CDG airport, however, looks like it was built by Communists.

That's because it was. Depends on which terminal you're talking about though.

The F, E and G sub terminals are fantastic-looking IMO. Terminal 1 and 3 look horrible though.

In terms of architecture, Terminal 1 is interesting though. I'm not saying it's beautiful, but it is indeed interesting. The automatic stairs crossing each other inside that round space saucer looking building, etc. It's all very inventive. 70's inventive, but still inventive.

TN486 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:39 pm

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Thread starter):
Why is it that the exterior of AirFrance planes are so dirty?

Maybe they don't clean them

I have always been so surprised at the lack of pride taken in AF exteriors. Is this a cultural thing?

On another note, I made comment (or a joke) re this very same topic in my early days on A.net, some gentleman from France complained, and I received "rap over the knuckles" and had my post deleted. So, be warned, be careful, the "delete" button is watching!!

UALWN · Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:44 pm

So, continuing on a similar vein, when is NW (I mean DL) going to retire their DC9s??

DarkSnowyNight · Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:11 pm

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Thread starter):
Day after day at LAX, 777s taxi by with black streaks coming from every door as well as paint missing from various spots.

Those are generally referred to as "eyelashes" and are the bane of existence for white liveried aircraft. They are totally unavoidable, and extremely difficult to get rid of. When I get home later, I'll crop and post some pics from the ramp, and we'll see it isn't just AF that has this issue.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):

Germans and Swiss do tend to be very tidy and orderly about everything.

Take a better look. It may not be as visible from inside a terminal, but out on the ramp, it's obvious that their aircraft get as dirty as anyone else's. The LH A333 I worked on yesterday was positively filthy below the wing and had a very generous series of streaks (likely culprit being the overspill containers that no one ever empties) from the gear wells back.

BA's G-CIVE (a 747-436) could also use a bath as it has not likely been washed since the new livery.

AF's planes are of course, quite dirty, yes. But the worst I've ever seen is actually not an AF frame. I don't know how they got the rep (although it is indeed deserved), but they are by no means alone here.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 12):
So, continuing on a similar vein, when is NW (I mean DL) going to retire their DC9s??

The memo I got said they are waiting to on Boeing to re-tool the Renton factory so they can re-start 757 production. Boeing, is in turn, waiting on Bendix to finalize that MLG wheel pre-land spin-up device so the new birds won't be so hard on their tires...

Blobusus · Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:26 pm

I was wondering if it might have something to do with destinations. Some places seem to be a lot dirtier than others. I remember being shocked at a photo of Air Force One looking grimy, something I'd never seen before; it was then I learned about the air pollution situation in Beijing. Does AF fly to particularly smokey places?

AirPacific747 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:31 pm

Quoting Blobusus (Reply 14):

That cannot be the explanation.. LH, BA and others fly to many of the same destinations.. It must be because AF invests less money in washing their planes than for example LH does.

mcr · Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:31 pm

Quoting Blobusus (Reply 14):
Does AF fly to particularly smokey places?

LAX springs immediately to mind!

Clydenairways · Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:32 pm

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 13):
The memo I got said they are waiting to on Boeing to re-tool the Renton factory so they can re-start 757 production. Boeing, is in turn, waiting on Bendix to finalize that MLG wheel pre-land spin-up device so the new birds won't be so hard on their tires...

Is this so they can land/take-off on a conveyor belt

something · Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:03 pm

Cleaning your aircraft saves much more money in fuel than what the washing costs. AF has their birds rest on the ramps for many hours at various outstations, the longest probably at JNB - tight scheduling can hardly be an excuse. So all stereotypes of the French being dirty and the Germans being orderly aside, this is an actual financial issue that needs to be addressed.

Article only in German, but LH even cleans the inside of their engines:

Quote:
Mit "Cyclean® Engine Wash" hat Lufthansa Technik eine neue Methode entwickelt, um das Innere von Triebwerken schnell und effektiv mit hohem Wasserdruck zu waschen. Weil damit Ablagerungen entfernt werden arbeitet der Hochdruckkompressor eines Triebwerks sauberer und effizienter, sodass die Durchströmung verbessert und die Abgastemperatur gesenkt wird. Dank der so erhöhten Leistungsfähigkeit sinken nicht nur der Kerosinverbrauch und die Schadstoffemissionen, sondern es können im gesamten Lebenszyklus eines Triebwerks auch Instandhaltungskosten gespart werden

Translation: Cyclean Engine Wash is a new registered trademark innovation by Lufthansa Technik to clean the inside of engines fast and effectively with high water pressure. Because deposits are removed, the high pressure compressor of the engine works cleaner and more efficient, so that the air flow rate can be improved and the exhaust fume temperature can be lowered. This doesn't only enhance the engine's performance which reduces fuel consumption and pollutant emissions, but it also reduces maintenance costs over the full life cycle of a turbine.

http://www.lufthansa-technik.com/app...ons/Entwicklungszentrum_HAM_DE.xml

In numbers that means..

Quote:
Developed by Lufthansa Technik to clean aircraft engines, CycleanTM Engine Wash provides appreciable ecological and economic advantages. In this process heated water is sprayed directly into the still rotating engine. This way, the entire core component is optimally washed, helping Lufthansa reduce kerosene consumption by up to 25,000 tons of kerosene per year. This corresponds to avoiding 75,000 tons of CO2 emissions. CycleanTM Engine Wash – only one part of Lufthansa’s extensive environmental care.

http://konzern.lufthansa.com/fileadm...erantwortung/LH-responsibility.pdf
http://www.lufthansa.com/cn/en/EnvironmentalCare

Quote:
What are the results?

Lufthansa’s new cleaning method makes it possible to clean engines more frequently, which improves their performance and life span. “Now, we expect 1,200 engine cleanings instead of 200 per year,” says Manfred Paul, Group Manager, Engine Engineering at Lufthansa Technik.
A one-year test phase involving selected engines on Airbus A321s, A340-300s and Boeing MD-11Fs suggests fuel savings of about 0.5% across the entire Lufthansa fleet – which translates into 74,000 tonnes fewer CO2 emissions.

http://www.aviationbenefitsbeyondbor...es/lufthansa-klm-and-clean-engines

It's hard to find figures about the fuel savings of a clean aircraft vis-a-vis a dirty one, because it largely depends on size of the aircraft and the degree of how dirty it is (how much the dirt weighs and how much drag it creates). Numbers floating about range between 1-3%, so anything but negligible. But here are a few interesting key figures about washing aircraft:

Quote:
Wenn eine Boeing 747-400 nach 90 Tagen Langstrecke zur Außenreinigung ankommt, dauert die komplette Wäsche acht Stunden - wertvolle Zeit in der das Flugzeug nicht in der Luft ist und kein Geld verdienen kann. Die Reinigung einer Boeing 737 dauert immerhin noch vier Stunden und muss alle 45 Tage erledigt werden.

Translation:When a Boeing 747-400 comes in for a wash after 90 days of longhaul flying, it requires eight hours to clean the aircraft - precious downtime where the aircraft can't earn money. Cleaning a Boeing 737 takes about four hours and is done every 45 days.

Quote:
Fast 10 000 Liter werden für die Grundreinigung einer Boeing 747-400 benötigt.

Translation:It takes almost 10 000 liters of water to clean a Boeing 747-400.

Quote:
Nach einer umfangreichen Testphase bietet Lufthansa Technik mittlerweile alternativ die Trockenwäsche an. Zunächst wird bei der Trockenreinigung das Flugzeug mit speziell entwickelten Reinigungsmitteln benetzt und eingerieben. Nach einer Einwirkzeit und weiterer Einarbeitung des Mittels, kann der Schmutz mit Hilfe von speziellen Tüchern abgerieben werden. Der Vorgang hinterläßt im Lack keine Kratzer. Die verunreinigten Tücher können gewaschen und wieder verwendet werden.
Dieser Prozess hat zwei entscheidende Vorteile: Zum Einen können im Gegensatz zum herkömmlichen Verfahren gleichzeitig anderen Arbeiten am Flugzeug durchgeführt werden. Zum Anderen spart diese Variante enorme Mengen an Wasser. Hinzu kommt, dass die Reinigungszeit insgesamt beträchtlich kürzer ist. Die bisherigen Testläufe von Lufthansa Technik verliefen zur vollsten Zufriedenheit.

Paraphrased translationAfter thorough testing, Lufthansa has started to offer dry-cleaning of aircraft. [...] This process has two significant advantages over conventional washing: 1. Other jobs can get done on the aircraft simultaneously, and 2. it saves vast amounts of water. It also takes much less time.

http://www.lufthansa-technik.com/app...raft_Cleaning_d.xml&setLang=german

Quote:
Der Putzkolonne bleiben 24 Stunden. "Wir müssen sehen, dass wir das Flugzeug sauber kriegen", sagt Klaus Kowalec, 55 Jahre alt und einer von drei Meistern bei der Flugzeugreinigung. In drei Schichten arbeitet sein Team – die letzten 13 Mann schuften bis tief in die Nacht hinein. Viele tragen Regenmäntel, Hüte, Handschuhe. Rund 13.000 Liter Wasser verbraucht die Airbus-Dusche

Paraphrase: The cleaning squad has 24 hours to clean the A388 between missiosn. They work in three shifts until late at night. Cleaning an A380 uses about 13 000 liters of water.

Contradicting with LH press release

Quote:
Eine Nasswäsche für den A380 und andere große Flieger ist allerdings eher die Ausnahme, wie ein Sprecher der Lufthansa Technik berichtet. Die großen Maschinen werden in fünf von sechs Fällen trocken gereinigt, also mit einer Spezialpaste poliert. Das spart Wasser.

"Die Oberfläche ist dann noch glatter. Aber es ist viel aufwendiger, Sie müssen mehr Personal haben", sagt Meister Kowalec. Bei einem A380 seien 450 statt 280 Arbeitsstunden nötig.

Translation: Washing the A380 and other widebodies is an exception. Four out of five times they are getting dry-cleaned. That makes the surfaces even slicker, but it is much costlier. On an A380, that requires 450 man hours, compared to 280 for washing the plane.

http://www.welt.de/reise/nah/article...-Waschanleitung-fuer-den-A380.html

spiritair97 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:26 pm

Quoting something (Reply 18):
has their birds rest on the ramps for many hours at various outstations, the longest probably at JNB - tight scheduling can hardly be an excuse

JFK is also a good example. AF22 lands at 10am and doesn't leave until 4:30pm! They could definitely clean a plane in that time!

DarkSnowyNight · Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:39 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 19):

JFK is also a good example. AF22 lands at 10am and doesn't leave until 4:30pm! They could definitely clean a plane in that time!

Unless JFK is certified for wet washes with the EPA, which is very unlikely, 6.5 hrs is nothing like enough time to wash an A330. Those typically require between 75 - 110 man hours. No company on Earth will hire the amount of washers required for a 6.5 hr turn (which would in reality only translate to about 3.5 - 4hrs of useful time considering the prep and positioning necessary).

Quoting something (Reply 18):
Translation: Cyclean Engine Wash is a new registered trademark innovation by Lufthansa Technik to clean the inside of engines fast and effectively with high water pressure. Because deposits are removed, the high pressure compressor of the engine works cleaner and more efficient, so that the air flow rate can be improved and the exhaust fume temperature can be lowered. This doesn't only enhance the engine's performance which reduces fuel consumption and pollutant emissions, but it also reduces maintenance costs over the full life cycle of a turbine.

We do this for other airlines as well. It is becoming a very popular service.

RussianJet · Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:44 pm

Please tell me that your next thread will be about a certain airline retiring DC-9s.

readytotaxi · Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:50 pm

(tounge in cheek)

I has been a secret for many years but now the truth is out.
The reason the planes are so filthy is because all AF pilots are heavey chain smokers.
Soon after take off they slide open the cockpit window and light up their Gauloises.
They lean out of the window and ex-hail.
Over an 8 hr flight that is a lot of smoke and hence the dirty airplane.

UALWN · Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 23):
Please tell me that your next thread will be about a certain airline retiring DC-9s.

See my reply #12...

contrails15 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:12 pm

Thats also the price you pay for having a white livery. Everything is gonna show on white. I would also think it would have to do with cost. If its not gonna make you money then why bother doing it. Not to say they don't but keep at it so that every plane is clean all the time. Thats a lot of money for something thats not gonna contribute to making you money. Last thing a pax sees is the cabin. Long as thats clean your good.

RussianJet · Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 26):
See my reply #12...

Hehe.....sorry, that'll teach me not to read all the way through such a ground-breaking thead!

mayor · Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting contrails15 (Reply 27):
Thats also the price you pay for having a white livery. Everything is gonna show on white. I would also think it would have to do with cost. If its not gonna make you money then why bother doing it. Not to say they don't but keep at it so that every plane is clean all the time. Thats a lot of money for something thats not gonna contribute to making you money. Last thing a pax sees is the cabin. Long as thats clean your good.

Western Airlines a/c, before (and for a short time, after) the DL/WA merger, were mostly in the red & white swizzle stick livery and they were badly oxidized plus being dirty. Some of the fleet had been changed to the "Bud Lite" livery, but most were still in the old livery.

TUGMASTER · Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Thread starter):
Why is it that the exterior of AirFrance planes are so dirty?

You're asking the wrong question....

You should ask,

Why the hell can't they be bothered to clean them..?

Now, maybe you'll get some answers.....

YOWVIEWER · Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:50 pm

I still like the idea of a drive-through plane wash.Built at major hubs around the world, the pilot punches in a code and eases the plane forward until the nose wheel catches in the chain pull.Pre-wash,soap,brushes,all adjustable based on the aircraft type.Even get the RainX to help reduce windshield wiper blade use,heck you could rainx the whole plane and increase the effieicency.Even if it took 2 hours to pull through the plane wash,great deal there.Maybe 20% off with a 100,000 litres or more Jet A-1.Uses recycled water too!!

strfyr51 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:57 pm

could it BE that Air France is preparing for Bankruptcy?? KLM is claiming they need to restructure for the future (I don't believe them ) But still.. cleaning airplanes is Not Essential Maintenence and when money is tight that's the first thing you do even if you are crying Wolf !!!

softrally · Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:28 pm

Oh dear, how many times have we discussed this topic beofre?

flightsimer · Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:41 pm

Quoting yowviewer (Reply 28):

I was thinking the same thing. It wouldn't be hard to do and could probably do just as good of a job as hand washing them.

The US NAVY already does it at bases which are located in salt environments. Now granted that's to remove the salt, but it should be able to wash the planes as well. And like you said, the water doesn't have to go down the drain; put a filtering system in and reuse almost all the water.

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