New Low For TSA

traindoc · Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:47 pm

Today at EWR, I was patted down after I went through the millimeter wave scanner. (I passed the scan.) The reason for the pat down was that the back of my shirt had some sweat on it!! As I told the TSA agent, I walked between terminal B & C after flying in from EDI, so of course there might be some sweat on my person. What are they going to do this summer? I did not think that they could reach such a level of stupidity.

I understand that if someone is nervous and sweating, that they may need extra screening. But is not the wave scanner supposed to pick up traces of explosives and contraband? My shoes, belt, phone, wallet, watch, comb, eyedrops, and pocket change all went through the scanner by themselves. What is next, stripping naked?

IAHFLYR · Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:55 pm

I'm not close to being a fan of the TSA, but do you actually believe this is a "New Low For TSA".......seriously?????

I thought we were going to really have something when I read the title, guess I should have known better.

[Edited 2012-06-18 11:56:47]

bobnwa · Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting traindoc (Thread starter):
What are they going to do this summer? I did not think that they could reach such a level of stupidity.

Seems your complaint is much to do about nothing. The TSA folks are just doing their job. I too would be interested in a person was was sweating excessively.

N766UA · Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:59 pm

Makes more sense than groping a disabled 5 year old...

Dreadnought · Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:02 pm

I think it's time for the TSA to back way off on these searches.

Sure, guns should not be allowed on planes, and neither should hunting knives with 11 inch blades.

But all the small stuff - pen-knives, boxcutters - the days of hijacking a plane so easily are over. The only reason it worked on 9/11 was that people assumed it was like previous hijackings. The terrorists will make demands, and eventually the hostages would be freed, most of the time. If anyone in the future tries to hijack a plane with anything less than an AK-47, you can bet that everyone on the plane will be on top of him immediately - we now know that it's a case of resist or die.

I see no issue with moving airport security back to roughly where it was 15 years ago. The only caveat to that is explosives, and I think the best way to deal with that are either super-sophisticated machinery at the airport entrances (I don't know if it exists yet), of simply have a lot of well-trained K-9 units prowling concourses and baggage areas.

But the hypersensitive security scan and confiscation of nailclippers needs to stop.

catiii · Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:08 pm

Sounds like they were using behvioral detection. I loathe the TSA, but it seems to make sense to pat down someone who is sweating excessively which could be a sign of a nervous individual who may be a threat. I'd rather that than patting down my 85 year old grandmother.

Quoting traindoc (Thread starter):
But is not the wave scanner supposed to pick up traces of explosives and contraband?

Check out the news about the new threats after it was uncovered in a CIA operation. It was described as a refinement of the underwear bomb. It was all over the news last month.

QANTAS747-438 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:26 pm

No, sounds ridiculous to pat someone down because of sweat. TSA is a joke. The OP never said he was "sweating excessively". Plus, we have people all the time running to catch planes, running thru terminals on connections, etc... We get sweaty people everyday. The only thing it means............... is that they're HOT! Geesh.

kgaiflyer · Mon Jun 18, 2012 7:58 pm

Quoting traindoc (Thread starter):
What are they going to do this summer? I did not think that they could reach such a level of stupidity.

Depend on when they let the new trainees out.

Back on May 24th at SNA -- in the Premier / First-Class line, I was pulled aside after exiting the back-scatter scanner and told I would have to be taken into a private room because my scan revealed too much wrinkled fabric in my crotch area (I'm age 69--everything is wrinkled down there

).

Since I've done 205 segments and 214,000 air miles in the last year -- in the USA and Canada -- even through ELP which has the most repressive TSA in the USA, I guess it caught me off-guard. An older agent quickly interceded and canceled out the younger agent -- who continued to insist my crotch was a threat to aviation -- in an embarrassingly loud voice. The older agent instructed me to pick up my belongings and exit the area. Anecdotally, I went through the C area TSA at SNA three times that week and the A area TSA once -- but I never saw that agent again.

The popular opinion is that in the federal employment system, if you mess up, you qualify for a promotion. But could this young agent have been disiplined or fired?

[Edited 2012-06-18 13:04:35]

[Edited 2012-06-18 13:07:53]

ikramerica · Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:00 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 2):
Seems your complaint is much to do about nothing. The TSA folks are just doing their job. I too would be interested in a person was was sweating excessively.

Then you would be wrong. They are overstepping their authority, which is the definition of not doing their job.

"Sweating excessively" and have sweat on the back of your shirt is NOT the same thing. You can the latter from sitting in a hot airport shuttle, carrying a backpack across a terminal, etc. Happens to me all the time and I would not welcome someone touching my genitals simply because I had to carry a backpack through a warm airport and then stand in line for 20 minutes with it keeping the heat against my body.

Or what about LAX or Hawaii, where the security lines can stretch out of conditioned areas. Are all sweaty people criminals because they had to stand in the sun for 20 minutes waiting for slow/understaffed TSA to slog through the backlog? Just doing their job my butt...

bluejuice · Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:05 pm

Nothing new unfortunately. Wet clothes can cause false positives. Those scanners are a boondoggle and money grab for lobbyists that used to work for DHS.
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011...body-scanners-can-see-perspiratio/

remcor · Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:13 pm

I know I'm generalizing, but one thing that gets me is that it seems like the people who gripe most about what the TSA does to them at airports are also the type of people who are least likely to be upset about things such as... widespread stop and frisk tactics by police, the Arizona/Alabama laws that allow police to detain people based on a hunch, racial profiling, etc...

It seems like for some people, they don't mind the authorities infringing on people's rights as long as the inconvenience doesn't extend to them personally. "I don't LOOK like a terrorist, so why bother me?" But those people who 'look' like criminals or terrorists, who cares about their rights or convenience? Hell let the police focus on them instead.

[Edited 2012-06-18 13:14:23]

kgaiflyer · Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting remcor (Reply 10):
the Arizona/Alabama laws that allow police to detain people based on a hunch, racial profiling, etc...

Racial profiling?

At BHM there are all-white TSA crews and all-black TSA crews. As far as I've seen, there are *no* mixed-race crews.

Funny, huh?

[Edited 2012-06-18 13:29:30]

Tradewinds · Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:30 pm

You know what makes me the most nervous when I fly?

Not the potential for terrorism.
Not the possibility of a mechanical failure leading to a crash.
Not the possibility of pilot error leading to an incident.
Not the chance that my plane will be delayed and I'll miss my connection.
Not even severe/clean air turbulence, both of which I have experienced and absolutely loathe.

What makes me the most nervous is the TSA. I'm nervous that they are going to profile me for something ridiculous like "sweating too much." I'm nervous that they are going to shout at my wife and belittle her for not speaking perfect English. I'm nervous that they are going to give my four-year-old daughter an "enhanced pat down" because I won't send her through scanning devices that have not been sufficiently tested for radiation effects (and have been banned in other countries around the world). I'm nervous that all the hassle people go through in airports is little more than theater and that real security is being forgotten about. I'm nervous about people who are the McDonald's cashiers of the security world having any amount of authority over me.

The TSA is both the most annoying and the most unnerving aspect of flying, without a doubt.

Flame away.

N766UA · Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 11):
Funny, huh?

Par for the course in Alabama. That place is messed up.

Cubsrule · Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting Tradewinds (Reply 12):
I'm nervous that they are going to give my four-year-old daughter an "enhanced pat down" because I won't send her through scanning devices that have not been sufficiently tested for radiation effects (and have been banned in other countries around the world).

Let's put backscatter aside for a second. Can you cite a single piece of scientific literature that shows a threat from the millimeter wave machines?

And what airport(s) don't let small kids go through the WTMDs?

SonomaFlyer · Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:06 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
Let's put backscatter aside for a second. Can you cite a single piece of scientific literature that shows a threat from the millimeter wave machines?

Studies to look at the effects of exposure to radiation take YEARS. The reason several countries banned this equipment is due to lack of these long term studies. Devices which emit radiation often go through years of testing to validate their emissions are safe for human beings.

We all know that these machines emit what is stated to be a small amount of radiation. However, that does not end the inquiry. Many folks including me who fly a lot either go via a line without the machine or will opt for the pat down. I'd rather get frisked than radiated tbh.

DeltaMD90 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:09 pm

Quoting Tradewinds (Reply 12):
You know what makes me the most nervous when I fly?

Geez, I'm no fan of the TSA, but I think I'd fear my airplane blowing up more than a pat down

And this thread isn't a "new low..." it's stupid but we've seen much worse...

Cubsrule · Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:11 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 15):
Devices which emit radiation often go through years of testing to validate their emissions are safe for human beings.

How much radiation does a millimeter wave machine emit?

yfbflyer · Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:15 pm

If you really think that is a new low you should read Congressman Blackburn's report

http://blackburn.house.gov/uploadedfiles/blackburn_tso_report.pdf

Thefts, Rape, Kiddy Porn, Assault, Bribery, Drug Crimes, DUIs and Murder

NBGSkyGod · Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
Geez, I'm no fan of the TSA, but I think I'd fear my airplane blowing up more than a pat down

And this is the problem with the whole deal. The fact that we are so willing to give up our civil liberties just for a "little security" is ignorant at best and down right dangerous at worst. Benjamen Franklin once said..."those that are willing to give up liberty for security, deserve neither liberty nor security."

XT6Wagon · Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
Geez, I'm no fan of the TSA, but I think I'd fear my airplane blowing up more than a pat down

You are more likely to get mauled by wildlife in your own back yard, yet we don't have Wildlife Security Agents patting down cougars and bears for concealed claws when they leave the woods.

even WITH terrorism, the safest part of the trip is the plane ride. So please stop using it as an excuse for bad security theater to inflict sexual assualt on you, others, children, etc. Which is what 99.5% of what the TSA "pat downs" amount to given the lack of training, probable cause, and legal rights. These are not uniformed officers of the law. You don't let the old guy at the door at walmart grope you on the way out, yet for some reason we let these people grope us at airports with no better training.

DeltaMD90 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:46 pm

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 19):

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 20):

You both realize I'm completely against the TSA?? Look at my signature. Should actually update it since Paul is pretty much out, gunning to Gary Johnson. What I was saying is 1 - this is not a "new low" for the TSA, and 2 - I'd rather have a pat down than get blown up (as would anyone else in the world.) That being said, I don't think the TSA needs to be doing all these patdowns

SonomaFlyer · Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:50 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millimeter_wave_scanner

DNA.html" target="_blank">http://www.naturalnews.com/027913_full-body_scanners_DNA.html

The radiation dose depends on the intensity of the beam. This in turn leads to the question of whether the intensity is preset or not.

Aside from the cancer concern, there is an issue with exposure to certain types of radiation damaging DNA strands.

The bottom line to me is we're being asked by our Government to "trust us, we know what we're doing." We're also being told the technology is safe in the long term without any studies to back up that fact. In the end, maybe its all fine - no worries. However, from my reading, I don't think the public has been subject to long term exposure to some of these types of radiation. That poses an unknown.

Although technology is nice, it can't replace a much more low tech approach of threat analysis. Talking to folks in the security line, analyzing flight lists and travel patterns etc. That sort of work is effective and combining that with enhanced baggage screening, random pat downs and various detectors can help ensure flight safety.

IAHWorldflyer · Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:03 pm

Though I can see the OP's sense of frustration, I've just stopped getting bent out of shape over this nation's security theater. Beginning in January of this year I started carry my normal sized toiletries in my carry on bag, I do not put anything in silly little ziploc bags, and even when going through Millimeter Wave and Backscatter machines, I only remove my shoes, belt, cell phone, and loose change. I have not been stopped once! I'm happier now, I'm not inconvienced, and they can pretend to be protecting us from the terrorists.

ikramerica · Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:11 pm

Quoting remcor (Reply 10):

I know I'm generalizing

Yep, you are making a statement with no basis in any fact other than what you want to believe. Or at minimum, you are attributing this attitude to the public at large but seem to be directing it to the members on these forums who have never, AFAIK, espoused support for illegal searches, unlawful detainer, or anything you speak of.

Do you think that makes the argument stronger? "If you object or complain about being groped at the airport, you are probably a racist and I don't listen to racists..." What kind of logic is that?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
Geez, I'm no fan of the TSA, but I think I'd fear my airplane blowing up more than a pat down

I don't fear a bomb in flight because the threat has decreased over the last 40 years, not increased. Air travel has grown exponentially but bomb attacks have declined in real numbers.

I am much more inclined to worry about suicide attacks at security checkpoints and places where large numbers of security personal are stationed (like an airport, for example). It happens in the Islamic conflict areas all the time...

Maverick623 · Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
but I think I'd fear my airplane blowing up more than a pat down

Well, yes, an airplane "blowing up" is scarier than having someone put their hands all over you. But that doesn't mean that you should be so afraid of something that is less likely to happen than getting struck by lightning twice, that you would go to any lengths for the mere illusion that you're being kept safe.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 24):
Air travel has grown exponentially but bomb attacks have declined in real numbers.

I was under the impression there are less flights and less passengers now than pre-9/11. Even still, the point stands. There was 1 actual attempt to bring down an airplane in the last 10 years, and it was done hilariously badly (and has signs of being a false-flag operation).

UA777lover · Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:57 am

I was once asked at IAD if i I was carrying a pillow. I looked at the agent and said "why no, I'm just fat. Thank you for asking". I then proceeded to have my pat down as I refuse to do the scanners. I work in an ER and I know I get exposed to radiation but I'll never go through a scanner willingly. It's frustrating that the TSA does what they do. They have done nothing to make flying more secure.

railker · Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:05 am

All these people who are concerned about the millimeter wave scanners, as far as I'm concerned, should probably invest in lead safes. For them and their neighbors so they can put their microwaves in them when they want to reheat food. Oh, and you better toss your cell phones and laptops and wireless routers and [rant on a list]. Wear a mask at the gas station so you don't inhale fumes. Wear a full crash suit on your commute to work. You can get as ridiculous as you want, I can go on and on. Far as I'm concerned, it's all just another thing for people to gripe about when they can't see any chemtrails in the sky or flight attendants having a bad day.

Someone, somewhere is always going to find something to gripe about. Take away the TSA assuming a lack of security threat and these people are going to panic because they won't know what to do now they can't hawkeye the entire security operation for some vague idea of a 'new low' of horrible actions acclaimed on the level of what the Nazis did in WWII.

EDIT: Note that this isn't to say that the TSA is all good and there isn't anything that goes on, the news might be sensationalistic but there's bad apples everywhere, or just that people make mistakes, it's unavoidable unless you want robots feeling you up, imagine the lawsuits then! Just stating that there are a lot of people out there who see a lot of perceived slights or insults against them in any situation, and a lot of the time it's nothing that's actually particularly special.

[Edited 2012-06-18 18:29:45]

September11 · Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:18 am

I got a Pat Down few weeks ago. TSA Agent indicated my rear is something. I have big buttocks. I arrived too early and I was the first one in line. So that may be the reason for the Pat Down.. Little silly & rude of TSA.

einsteinboricua · Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:52 am

We've read worse stories from TSA. Sweat is not produced only by heat. When I get nervous I also sweat. Not that you have a suspicious looking profile, but they didn't walk with you through the terminal and it's not like there's someone watching cameras to confirm the story.

Honestly, I'd rather they keep up the charade than allow for 9/11 to happen all over again. Next time, it could be your flight.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 20):
You don't let the old guy at the door at walmart grope you on the way out, yet for some reason we let these people grope us at airports with no better training.

Who'd want to attack a Wal Mart? Besides, if the old man discovered you were carrying a gun, you'd yell foul because you have a right to bear arms.

dc8l1011fan · Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:03 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 5):
Sounds like they were using behvioral detection. I loathe the TSA, but it seems to make sense to pat down someone who is sweating excessively which could be a sign of a nervous individual who may be a threat. I'd rather that than patting down my 85 year old grandmother.

I have flown once a month for the past 6 months with my 85 year old father to visit a friend of his in SRQ, he has been patted down each way every month except this month. I have yet to be patted down. I don't know if they are trying to trip him up or what, but each time they ask about his left knee and is it artificial, it is not. He does have screws and a plate on lower right leg bone, but they never ask about his right leg.

This is a bit off topic, but why do they have places to sit to put your shoes back on, but no places to sit to take shoes off, at least in ATL. It can be like having a child when you are trying to steady an 85 yr old to get his shoes off, get his suspenders off, make sure his pants don't fall down once the suspenders are off, get our stuff ready for x-ray and get him lined up for the scanner......I do have to commend several of the ladies in ATL, when they see me struggling, several have come over and they steady him while he takes his shoes off and I can get our carry-ons ready for xray.....

XT6Wagon · Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:21 am

Quoting dc8l1011fan (Reply 30):
I have flown once a month for the past 6 months with my 85 year old father to visit a friend of his in SRQ, he has been patted down each way every month except this month. I have yet to be patted down. I don't know if they are trying to trip him up or what, but each time they ask about his left knee and is it artificial, it is not. He does have screws and a plate on lower right leg bone, but they never ask about his right leg.

I think its time to file a formal complaint.

TSS · Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:26 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 11):
At BHM there are all-white TSA crews and all-black TSA crews. As far as I've seen, there are *no* mixed-race crews.

Are you certain about that? BHM is my home airport and I don't recall ever seeing any TSA crews there that weren't "mixed-race".

CZ346 · Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:09 am

While I do think "an all new for TSA" is obnoxiously exagerated, it is ridiculous to pat somrone down for sweat...

I just piss them all off and immediately request a pat down if its a MMW or Back Scatter. I honestly get out quicker than the people who go though them...

remcor · Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:44 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 24):

Yep, you are making a statement with no basis in any fact other than what you want to believe. Or at minimum, you are attributing this attitude to the public at large but seem to be directing it to the members on these forums who have never, AFAIK, espoused support for illegal searches, unlawful detainer, or anything you speak of.

Do you think that makes the argument stronger? "If you object or complain about being groped at the airport, you are probably a racist and I don't listen to racists..." What kind of logic is that?

I wasn't speaking specifically about anyone on this site, nor was I talking about the OP. It definitely was not meant to be an argument about the specifics of this incident. I was however making an observation that there seems to be a lot of overlap between the set of people who vehemently hate being scanned/patted down/etc by the TSA for _libertarian_ reasons (as opposed to incompetence, inconvenience, etc.) and the set of people who like believe in severe measures elsewhere that are generally aimed at minorities (like the ones I mentioned above).

strangr · Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:11 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
Geez, I'm no fan of the TSA, but I think I'd fear my airplane blowing up more than a pat down

I don't seemt o understand why so many people actually care, i'd stop for a pat down if it was that or osama bin laden doing another 9/11.

I remember travelling after 9/11 to the USA and Canada, sure it was not the most convenient but if you've got nothing to hide then take the 20 seconds and let em do their job, or don't complain when your plane blows up in the sky.

einsteinboricua · Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:32 am

Quoting dc8l1011fan (Reply 30):
but why do they have places to sit to put your shoes back on, but no places to sit to take shoes off, at least in ATL.

It's way easier to take off your shoes. Just untie your shoelaces or take them off altogether. However, to put them back on it's a real pain since you have to tie them again (or untie them and tie them if you didn't do so before).

bralo20 · Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:48 am

I had a simmilar experience at JFK on June 10, 2012. I had been carrying our luggage and it was quite warm so I was rather sweaty that day. After the scanner scanner I received a quick pat down and they swiped some part of my back with a tiny piece of coton that was analyzed in a small machine which gave ofcourse a negative result. I have no idea what caused the false positive but everything was done if a professional and quick way.

Nothing to worry about, as long as TSA is professional it doesn't bother me.

lat41 · Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:36 pm

More TSA bashing. Ho hum.

Tradewinds · Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:56 pm

Quoting railker (Reply 27):
All these people who are concerned about the millimeter wave scanners, as far as I'm concerned, should probably invest in lead safes. For them and their neighbors so they can put their microwaves in them when they want to reheat food. Oh, and you better toss your cell phones and laptops and wireless routers and [rant on a list]. Wear a mask at the gas station so you don't inhale fumes. Wear a full crash suit on your commute to work. You can get as ridiculous as you want, I can go on and on. Far as I'm concerned, it's all just another thing for people to gripe about when they can't see any chemtrails in the sky or flight attendants having a bad day.

I've heard this a million times, too, but it makes no logical sense. It's akin to saying "well, I'm going to inhale a little bit of car exhaust while walking down the street, so I might as well smoke some cigarettes." Just because we're more or less unable to avoid certain things -- commuting to work in cars, etc. -- doesn't mean we should just give the green light for any other unhealthy activity, particularly when the real extent of the radiation emitted by these scanners has not been tested over the long-term (and, as far as I am aware, has only been tested by companies directly connected to the manufacturer, which is hardly reliable). There is nothing ridiculous about that, and I still marvel that people can waltz through those things without the slightest concern about possible health effects (to say nothing of privacy) in light of the general situation.

Aquila3 · Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 31):
I think its time to file a formal complaint.

Then, as the things might go over there, You will go on some nice "dangerous people" list and get the pat down all the times as well.
If you are not already there because of writing this post.
Keef us updated and good luck in the Country of Liberty.

Maverick623 · Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:03 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 29):
Honestly, I'd rather they keep up the charade than allow for 9/11 to happen all over again.

Quoting strangr (Reply 35):
i'd stop for a pat down if it was that or osama bin laden doing another 9/11.

For the 50000000000000th time:

TSA would NOT have stopped 9/11 from happening. Hell, 9/11 stopped happening on 9/11. Stop using it as an excuse to justify the desecration of the 4th amendment.

kgaiflyer · Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting TSS (Reply 32):
Are you certain about that? BHM is my home airport and I don't recall ever seeing any TSA crews there that weren't "mixed-race".

Quite sure, thank you.

I actually pass through HSV and MOB more than BHM (which is waaaay too quiet for me). But the days I have gone through, that's the way it was.

I, too, thought it 'unique'.

NBGSkyGod · Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 41):
TSA would NOT have stopped 9/11 from happening. Hell, 9/11 stopped happening on 9/11. Stop using it as an excuse to justify the desecration of the 4th amendment.

+1

YYZYYT · Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting Tradewinds (Reply 12):
Flame away.

Hardly. I completely agree with what you are saying... it's a serious inconvenience, especially when travelling with kids (mine have been reduced to tears on occasion by the security checkpoints, and they dread the security).

These issues, combined with the generally inhospitable customer service environment these days, have led to a sad state of events in our house hold (are you sitting down?): I, an a.netter and certifiable all-around-airplane-geek, have recently come to the conclusion that I would rather DRIVE if at all possible, particularly when travelling to the US.

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