CVG Updates: Concourse A And Other Misc. News

flyguy89 · Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:00 pm

Hey all, I was coming back through CVG the other month from CDG and had a chance to stop by the newly renovated and re-opened Concourse A and snapped a few photos:

All in all the new renovation looks great, nothing earth-shattering, but the new gate areas, open airy feeling, and ample new gate space are a HUGE improvement over Terminal 2...and it was great see that the underground train is once again stopping at Concourse A. The airport looked overall more busy and there is now plenty of flexibility for new carriers to enter CVG and I applaud this move by the airport.

Some other news which some of us may or may not have heard yet:

-DL will be discontinuing service to PHX at the conclusion of the Summer season. The route will return briefly for less than two months in the spring, but for all intents and purposes the route is done. Hopefully US will see the opportunity and take up the route, for now we'll just have to wait and see.

-Sunwing, through Vacation Express, is offering seasonal services to PUJ, CUN, and MBJ. CUN and PUJ have been offered before, but I believe the MBJ service is new.

-Vision Air has started service to MYR which will operate May 31 through Oct 31, technically CVG's first LCC service in a while, but not the WN, F9, or B6 service we're holding our breath for.

-DL has brought back their seasonal SAN service for the summer which operates 6x weekly June 6 through Aug 13.

-UA is also adding capacity to CVG, whether seasonally or permanently I'm not sure. Beginning June 1, UA's service on CVG-EWR will increase from 4 to 6 daily flights and CVG-IAH will increase from 3 to 4 daily flights. Nothing jaw-dropping but regardless it's always great to see some service expansion.

point2point · Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:23 pm

The terminal looks clean and crisp and bright and with lots of space. Good job on the terminal.

Ironic that UA seems to be adding service (if even additions to hubs) while DL is continuing to cut back. DL isn't going to be the world's largest airline by doing that.

Sunwing? Is this a charter? Giving F9 some competition? Maybe F9 could get in there and at least maybe have a flight to DEN, even if for the re-position of planes? F9 will at least offer decent fares.

All the best for Cincy.....

deltaffindfw · Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
-UA is also adding capacity to CVG, whether seasonally or permanently I'm not sure. Beginning June 1, UA's service on CVG-EWR will increase from 4 to 6 daily flights and CVG-IAH will increase from 3 to 4 daily flights. Nothing jaw-dropping but regardless it's always great to see some service expansion.

It is key to note that UA is adding capacity to EWR and IAH, but they are also discontinuing CLE's 2 or so daily flights.

ordbosewr · Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting deltaffindfw (Reply 2):
It is key to note that UA is adding capacity to EWR and IAH, but they are also discontinuing CLE's 2 or so daily flights.

They are adding more than they removing and arguably they are adding more capacity to allow better access to the network. It is clear that for UA CLE will be a primary O&D operation and they want to route all connecting traffic through other hubs. That decision will be based on geography. CVG is better for west connections through ORD. For southern connections through IAH and east through EWR or IAD.
They will be doing the same thing with other cities as well.

PHX787 · Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:30 pm

Thanks for the thread! We can make this an "official CVG thread" since recently a lot of discussion has been about CVG.

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
-DL will be discontinuing service to PHX at the conclusion of the Summer season. The route will return briefly for less than two months in the spring, but for all intents and purposes the route is done. Hopefully US will see the opportunity and take up the route, for now we'll just have to wait and see.

A thing to note: A few people out here in PHX are strongly suggesting that US is going to start this route, possibly in November if anything. Nothing official as the dropped route came out of nowhere for most of the community. As there are many connecting opportunities out here, the business community is also trying to get US to add this route. I hope it goes through.

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
-UA is also adding capacity to CVG, whether seasonally or permanently I'm not sure. Beginning June 1, UA's service on CVG-EWR will increase from 4 to 6 daily flights and CVG-IAH will increase from 3 to 4 daily flights. Nothing jaw-dropping but regardless it's always great to see some service expansion.

This sounds good to me either way. It's good to see them take advantage of the cuts DL is making. I just wish the flights to IAH will be on some mainline metal. I bet that's coming soon, though.

SANFan · Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):
-DL will be discontinuing service to PHX at the conclusion of the Summer season. The route will return briefly for less than two months in the spring, but for all intents and purposes the route is done. Hopefully US will see the opportunity and take up the route, for now we'll just have to wait and see

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
A thing to note: A few people out here in PHX are strongly suggesting that US is going to start this route, possibly in November if anything. Nothing official as the dropped route came out of nowhere for most of the community. As there are many connecting opportunities out here, the business community is also trying to get US to add this route. I hope it goes through.

I brought this up in the last thread about PHX-CVG probably getting the axe and I still think it is a valid question. I just looked at the DOT numbers for all of 2011 and the average anual PDEW between CVG and PHX is a very undramatic 83. The high quarterly average PDEW (in Q1) was in the mid-90s and the low was for Q3 and was an unspectacular 74 PDEW. These figures of course are O&D and there are still a few DL connections over CVG that might add a few pax to their flights.

That being said, why is it a surprise that DL is dropping the route and world US really bother with it? Sure US would offer a few connections west of PHX but would it be enough to keep a year-round flight profitable? (I would have to think that US, with a still-healthy hub in Arizona WOULD stand a better chance of making the route work than DL with the CVG hub continuing to fade to oblivion. But still...)

I continue to scratch my head over the seriousness that the loss of this rather uninspired route seems to bring out in some A.netters. Any clarification would be much appreciated.

bb

747fan · Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:28 am

Something nice to see would be AA mainline on MD-80's to DFW. Seems like CVG used to see mainline on this route, which Eagle serves 7X daily all on ERJ's.

flyguy89 · Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:03 am

Quoting deltaffindfw (Reply 2):
It is key to note that UA is adding capacity to EWR and IAH, but they are also discontinuing CLE's 2 or so daily flights.

Well CLE-CVG was operating less than 2 daily on DHC props, so all in all it's a net increase of more than 1 daily flight and an even larger increase of daily seats since they will be using larger aircraft. Additionally, while it's nothing too spectacular, I don't find it insignificant that UA is dedicating 6 daily frequencies to CVG from slot-constrained EWR.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 5):
I continue to scratch my head over the seriousness that the loss of this rather uninspired route seems to bring out in some A.netters. Any clarification would be much appreciated.

It's a major Western market which makes it a pretty significant loss from CVG, particularly when you have smaller markets like SDF, IND, and CMH maintaining regular non-stops to PHX on WN.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 5):
I just looked at the DOT numbers for all of 2011 and the average anual PDEW between CVG and PHX is a very undramatic 83.

Keep in mind those numbers are the current count under DL's less-than-O&D-friendly pricing strategy at CVG, it's never been a cheap route to fly, perhaps PHX787 can speak more to that, but with more attractive pricing, the market would be well-stimulated. Additionally though, those PDEW numbers as is aren't particularly insignificant when you factor in the connections US would be able to offer in PHX.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
A few people out here in PHX are strongly suggesting that US is going to start this route

Good to hear!

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
I just wish the flights to IAH will be on some mainline metal. I bet that's coming soon, though.

I'm with ya

Quoting 747fan (Reply 6):
Something nice to see would be AA mainline on MD-80's to DFW. Seems like CVG used to see mainline on this route, which Eagle serves 7X daily all on ERJ's.

This is probably the most likely mainline up-gauge candidate, they now have plenty of space for it in Concourse A, I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed!

mpdpilot · Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:24 am

I just flew this past spring PHX-CVG-MSN and I for one am going to miss the flight from PHX, it was always a nice alternative to DTW or MSP.

It is nice to see CVG expanding even if it is only in concourse size. It looks pretty said there for a once busy airport.

I really don't understand Delta's strategy in CVG. They keep cities like MSN (though it is my home airport it is by no means a major destination) yet they drop cities like PHX (my current home airport and popular business destination, though more retreat/convention)

I just feel like its dying and Delta should either let it go or keep it up and stop this monkeying around. Maybe its just me. I remember flying MKE-CVG-ATL-ILM when I was younger and both CVG flights were MD-88 and 727 respectively and and now it is CRJ900 world with the occasional MD-88 to ATL or MCO.

I have never flown through STL or PIT but I can imagine they have similar feelings on the matter.

slcdeltarumd11 · Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:37 am

Quoting mpdpilot (Reply 8):
I really don't understand Delta's strategy in CVG

I think its purely to loose as little money at CVG while they have to pay for all the gates they are contractually obligated to. If they were paying for all those gates and dropped to just hubs other airlines would start more flights and/or get more fans or frequent flyers so delta would loose a ton more. They still have to pay for all those gates and CVG is so low competition they mine as well try to get some profitable flights to use them. The remaining flights are the ones that really do make money without connections just o&d i bet and ones that they see last minute purchases for business. If delta could stop payments on that gate space they probably would have along time ago but they probably just want to loose as little as possible now.

PHX787 · Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:46 am

Quoting 747fan (Reply 6):
Something nice to see would be AA mainline on MD-80's to DFW. Seems like CVG used to see mainline on this route, which Eagle serves 7X daily all on ERJ's.

I agree, it'd be nice to see some of the shiny silver land a little more

Quoting SANFan (Reply 5):
I brought this up in the last thread about PHX-CVG probably getting the axe and I still think it is a valid question. I just looked at the DOT numbers for all of 2011 and the average anual PDEW between CVG and PHX is a very undramatic 83. The high quarterly average PDEW (in Q1) was in the mid-90s and the low was for Q3 and was an unspectacular 74 PDEW. These figures of course are O&D and there are still a few DL connections over CVG that might add a few pax to their flights.

I fly this route at least once a month or couple of months, and my dad does it about 3 times a month. (my next flight is next week) and it is always full. Last time it was overbooked and they rerouted one family though ATL so that they can fill up 3 seats for O&D travelers. That's why this is a sad loss from CVG.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 9):
I think its purely to loose as little money at CVG while they have to pay for all the gates they are contractually obligated to

When DL decided to monopolize CVG, that should've been a wakeup call for everybody.

ncflyer · Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:52 am

Am I the only one shocked that no flights between two largest metro areas in one of the most populous states? Heck day-cle is still operating. Cmh-cle is still operating. I don't get it, you'd think there'd be o/d traffic.

ouboy79 · Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:28 am

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 11):
Am I the only one shocked that no flights between two largest metro areas in one of the most populous states? Heck day-cle is still operating. Cmh-cle is still operating. I don't get it, you'd think there'd be o/d traffic.

Maybe there is but the right operator isn't around to make it viable?

deltaffindfw · Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:38 am

As much as I would like to see an MD-80 on DFW-CVG (since I fly it once every 5-6 weeks), I do like the 7x flights a day. I always worry about them dropping to 3x due to the larger equipment. Hopefully AA and APA can finalize an agreement soon, and maybe we could see 2-class 70 seaters on it to keep some of the extra frequencies.

lhcvg · Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:52 am

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 11):
Am I the only one shocked that no flights between two largest metro areas in one of the most populous states? Heck day-cle is still operating. Cmh-cle is still operating. I don't get it, you'd think there'd be o/d traffic.

Yeah but I'll bet dollars to pesos that 95%+ of the pax on those are connecting beyond (or through) CLE. DL even to used to have an odd 757 on CVG-CMH back in the day, but now there's just no need with reduced connectivity at CVG, the focus city at CMH having very good coverage elsewhere in the DL network, and that driving up 71 is just too much easier. I ran the numbers for fun a couple times, and at best, you'd break even door-to-door flying CVG-CLE, so CMH is no contest.

slcdeltarumd11 · Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:55 am

Thanks for the update and photos of A! Forgot that in my first post

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 11):
Am I the only one shocked that no flights between two largest metro areas in one of the most populous states? Heck day-cle is still operating. Cmh-cle is still operating. I don't get it, you'd think there'd be o/d traffic.

There must be some demand and its a four hour drive but maybe its just too small to care about or for a CRJ-200/embraer. I guess the operator is the problem also CO or DL probably are only interested if the numbers are significant i guess or lots of last minute business travel? Maybe if delta cuts more in the future we might see UA return on CVG-CLE for connections? That is the only scenario i can imagine unless southwest adds CVG but with dayton so relatively close and already established i dont think thats a given. Who would operate the route it might need a cape air or great lakes type operator? Are these the two largest cities in the same state with no service? They are pretty large cities to have no service both technically hubs

xjramper · Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:13 am

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 11):

Am I the only one shocked that no flights between two largest metro areas in one of the most populous states? Heck day-cle is still operating. Cmh-cle is still operating. I don't get it, you'd think there'd be o/d traffic.

Just by taking a gander at the route map for every destination out of CVG, every single city that has a flight into CVG also flies to another hub/focus city that can fly those folks into CMH. There probably isn't enough demand to support a schedule, regardless of frequency or equipment size to garner the support for those nonstops. As for Dayton, depending on the time you drive through Cincy, its roughly only an hour from Dayton to Covington. And if you need to fly from DAY to get to CVG, you are wasting way more time than necessary.

flyguy89 · Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:42 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 15):
Thanks for the update and photos of A! Forgot that in my first post

No problem!

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 15):
I guess the operator is the problem also CO

I think you hit the nail right on the head here. Back in the day (80's and early 90's) when Comair was still independent and operated schedules and pricing strategies to actually cater to the Cincinnati market, it was pretty common for local passengers to fly CVG-CLE and it was a fairly busy O&D route. But when the network strategy started to take shape, the props being replaced with CRJ's, the route became purely a spoke to connect CLE passengers through the CVG hub, and prices went skyrocketing along with it, no longer making it affordable or economical for local passengers to fly the route. This lasted for so long that the local market that existed for the route pretty much completely died off.

It's sad really, Comair was such a great local service airline before DL took them over wholesale, they used to have their own loyalty perks and 'Weekend Traveler' deals for local Cincinnati passengers, it used to be very affordable and common for CVG travelers to fly their network.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 15):
That is the only scenario i can imagine unless southwest adds CVG but with dayton so relatively close and already established i dont think thats a given.

I've said this a couple times before and I'll say it again, I think it's only a matter of time before WN moves their DAY operation to CVG. As DL's dominance continues to decline, it becomes more a question of 'what is the argument for them to remain in DAY and NOT enter CVG?'

slcdeltarumd11 · Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:03 am

I would think a good question is when do southwest and/ or air tran leases expire at Dayton?

CVG will probably try to get them to move but moving its expensive, has risk, and Dayton seems successful as is. Starting a route like denver out of Dayton seems like they like they are happy with having Dayton? The Dayton airport and city will probably stop at nothing to stop southwest from moving and for good reasons. I guess I could see it go either way?

PHX787 · Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:10 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):

Quick question,

As much as I've flown through CVG I've never landed there from an international flight (I would always fly through JFK or LAX on the way back home from abroad) so what happens when you land from CDG? where do you go for the international arrivals?

Thanks, Z

delta2ual · Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
DL isn't going to be the world's largest airline by doing that.

They aren't-United is.

lhcvg · Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:52 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
Thanks for the thread! We can make this an "official CVG thread" since recently a lot of discussion has been about CVG.

Oh no worries, you usually see to that

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 17):
I've said this a couple times before and I'll say it again, I think it's only a matter of time before WN moves their DAY operation to CVG. As DL's dominance continues to decline, it becomes more a question of 'what is the argument for them to remain in DAY and NOT enter CVG?'

Me too. It just seems too clear a choice, especially with DAY right down the road from CMH, form a catchment perspective.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
As much as I've flown through CVG I've never landed there from an international flight (I would always fly through JFK or LAX on the way back home from abroad) so what happens when you land from CDG? where do you go for the international arrivals?

At least one or two of the gates on the short end of B (the western part, toward C) have sterile FIS corridors. Then you just go out on the train like anyone else. I took a tour of the FIS facility back circa 2006 and it was actually rather nice and efficient-looking.

Flytravel · Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 17):
I've said this a couple times before and I'll say it again, I think it's only a matter of time before WN moves their DAY operation to CVG. As DL's dominance continues to decline, it becomes more a question of 'what is the argument for them to remain in DAY and NOT enter CVG?'

I think WN will service both airports like CLE and CAK, DTW and FNT. Like those airports and DSM, they are the right distance for flights to MDW, where WN can be competitive against UA and AA for flights to Chicago and connections, as well as being short haul for offering BWI service to the east.

[Edited 2012-06-22 08:06:19]

flyguy89 · Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
Quoting flyguy89 (Thread starter):

Quick question,

As much as I've flown through CVG I've never landed there from an international flight (I would always fly through JFK or LAX on the way back home from abroad) so what happens when you land from CDG? where do you go for the international arrivals?

Sure. It's actually quite an impressive facility and it's a shame that it's now as under-used as it is, but as LHCVG pointed out, if you've ever boarded or de-planed from the shorter end of Concourse B, when you de-plane there's an in-between, foyer type area between the jetway and the door you walk out of to enter the gate area, in that area there's an escalator which goes down to a corridor with some restrooms which opens up to a queuing area for passport control where your documents are stamped. Right past passport control there is a large baggage claim area where you re-claim your bags (all in the same architectural/interior style as the rest of Concourse B), I think there are two large carrousels. After reclaiming your bags and handing your entrance forms at another control check-point, you bring your bags to a belt where they're either sorted to go out to the main baggage claim area or be sent on to connecting flights and from there you go through a standard TSA screening check-point, very quick an painless.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 21):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 4):
Thanks for the thread! We can make this an "official CVG thread" since recently a lot of discussion has been about CVG.

Oh no worries, you usually see to that

Hey hey, we're all friends here

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 22):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 17):
I've said this a couple times before and I'll say it again, I think it's only a matter of time before WN moves their DAY operation to CVG. As DL's dominance continues to decline, it becomes more a question of 'what is the argument for them to remain in DAY and NOT enter CVG?'

I think WN will service both airports like CLE and CAK, DTW and FNT.

I would agree, but the Cincinnati-Dayton area isn't as large as Cleveland-Akron or Detroit-Flint. DAY's LCC operation is really only as large as it is because of passenger bleed from Cincinnati, otherwise the Dayton area has been pretty hard-hit economically it's metro area's population has been contracting while Cincinnati's has been growing.

lhcvg · Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 23):
I would agree, but the Cincinnati-Dayton area isn't as large as Cleveland-Akron or Detroit-Flint. DAY's LCC operation is really only as large as it is because of passenger bleed from Cincinnati, otherwise the Dayton area has been pretty hard-hit economically it's metro area's population has been contracting while Cincinnati's has been growing.

Exactly. If it comes down to two out CVG, CMH, and DAY, DAY is going to lose - it's just too close to both to be viable when the potential CVG market is much larger. Even with CMH, SDF, IND all in close proximity to a potential future WN station at CVG, it's still better at ~100 between those than the short distance between DAY and either CVG or CMH.

PHX787 · Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 21):
you usually see to that

:D

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 23):
very quick an painless.

Ok in comparison:
When I landed at NRT it took me 20 minutes to go through japan customs and to get my bag and to be waiting for a bus on the curb.
When I arrived back at LAX it took me 60 minutes to go through customs, (and another 30 minutes to get re-screened by TSA) so when you landed, where do you think CVG stands in between these two?

lhcvg · Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 25):
When I arrived back at LAX it took me 60 minutes to go through customs, (and another 30 minutes to get re-screened by TSA) so when you landed, where do you think CVG stands in between these two?

One thing to keep in mind: since there is only 1 regularly scheduled FIS flight anymore, they may only run a couple FIS lanes. I don't know how CBP allocates their personnel, but they likely don't use that many with only ~200 pax going through now. So, it's probably pretty swift, but maybe not the absolute fastest because they certainly don't run 20 lanes there.

flyguy89 · Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 25):
where do you think CVG stands in between these two?

Assuming that one doesn't run into any hiccups or snags in immigration, you could easily be processed and out on the curb in 20-30 minutes.

KDAYflyer · Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:19 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 1):
Maybe F9 could get in there and at least maybe have a flight to DEN, even if for the re-position of planes? F9 will at least offer decent fares.

F9 currently flies a 319 daily to Denver from DAY. Perhaps it is geograpically too close to have another flight from CVG....

lhcvg · Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:51 pm

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 28):
F9 currently flies a 319 daily to Denver from DAY. Perhaps it is geograpically too close to have another flight from CVG....

I think that's a very interesting question. With serving the likes of DAY and CAK, they clearly don't have any qualms with serving the smaller city near a larger one, but as with WN, there may be some benefit to going to CVG. The wild card there is whether UA decides to beef CVG-DEN up, and whether either F9 or UA (or even WN down the road) could/would sustain a fight on that route.

point2point · Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:43 pm

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 28):
F9 currently flies a 319 daily to Denver from DAY. Perhaps it is geograpically too close to have another flight from CVG....

If F9 can get a deal.... I think that they would take it.

I don't think that airports in proximity are of the biggest concern - they have had both LAX and SNA for a while (although the SoCal are is massive and populous) and have had MKE and MSN near each other, and recently started PVU which is near SLC, and then just this summer BLI came online for the season, and that is near SEA. Also with the Apple Vacation flights from such place as ORD and CLE near their other airports in those regions, we may see some DEN nonstops to those like they did with BOS last season to reposition their planes. And CVG does have a few Apple flights, so it really wouldn't knock my socks off if F9 decided to serve CVG from DEN, whether it be a few seasonal flights for reposition, or maybe some more.

PHX787 · Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:43 pm

Ok I'm going to post some routes here and I would like anybody whose flown on them to chime in and tell me how they were:

CVG-LAX
CVG-JFK
CVG-EWR (DL and UA)
CVG-LGA
CVG-SFO
CVG-SEA
CVG-DEN (DL and UA)
CVG-BOS
CVG-TPA
CVG-ORD (AA, UA, DL)
CVG-MIA (DL and AA)
CVG-CLT (US and DL)

Let's get comparisons here on load factors, profitability, how full they are, etc.

lhcvg · Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:10 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 31):
CVG-ORD (AA, UA, DL)

I always fly through ORD going to CVG, so I've flown this several times on UA. I take the 1:10 G7 CR7 on it's STL-ORD-CVG-DEN trip, and it is always except for holidays 50-60% full. F is obviously always full, but even E+ is only two-thirds or so, and I've found that remarkably consistent every time except for holidays. From my informal survey of talking to nearby pax from those, it's mostly connections, typically a deadhead pilot for one of the cargo carriers (Atlas, Polar, etc.) that operate from CVG, and a sprinkling of O&D. Most of the pax seem to be business (inclusive of the deadheaders). On the way back CVG-ORD, it's either an OO or XJ CR2 or Jungle Jet in the mid-morning to noon hours, and those are usually pretty full, at least 75%ish when I take them.

One point about JFK - on DL at least, I'd guess that's mostly connections, so that will skew the revenue aspect. I believe AA still only does JFK from CVG, so that will probably be more of a mix than DL.

flyguy89 · Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:43 am

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 32):

I always fly through ORD going to CVG, so I've flown this several times on UA.

There must be good premium demand on this route as you indicate, and then there's also the fact that UA still maintains a daily mainline flight CVG-ORD, I just find that so curious, but that's the only reason I can think of.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 31):
Ok I'm going to post some routes here and I would like anybody whose flown on them to chime in and tell me how they were:

If you get real curious, you can also go to dot.gov, they publish all kinds of stats and figures from which you could extrapolate most of the numbers you're looking for.

FWAERJ · Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:09 am

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 29):
The wild card there is whether UA decides to beef CVG-DEN up, and whether either F9 or UA (or even WN down the road) could/would sustain a fight on that route.

If the UA CVG-DEN flight is served by an S5 E170, F9 can't start CVG-DEN, as it would interfere with the UA scope clause.

(Some cities like IND and PIT that see both F9 and UA/S5 are grandfathered in, as F9 started the route before UA put S5 metal on the route.)

PHX787 · Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:29 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 34):
(Some cities like IND and PIT that see both F9 and UA/S5 are grandfathered in, as F9 started the route before UA put S5 metal on the route.)

What if it is UA Mainline metal?

lhcvg · Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:09 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 33):
There must be good premium demand on this route as you indicate, and then there's also the fact that UA still maintains a daily mainline flight CVG-ORD, I just find that so curious, but that's the only reason I can think of.

There's probably a bit of that, but my comment was more referencing that with a 6-seat F cabin, between any paid fares and upgrades, you can probably count on that being full. In other words, with an LF as low as that flights tend to be IME, almost everyone who wants to get F or at least E+ gets it.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 34):
If the UA CVG-DEN flight is served by an S5 E170, F9 can't start CVG-DEN, as it would interfere with the UA scope clause.

That shouldn't be an issue as it's served by a GoJet CR7.

PHX787 · Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:31 am

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 36):
That shouldn't be an issue as it's served by a GoJet CR7.

How does a CR7 make it that far? That sounds like a route I wouldn't want to fly on for a long period of time in a CRJ

point2point · Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:49 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 34):
If the UA CVG-DEN flight is served by an S5 E170, F9 can't start CVG-DEN, as it would interfere with the UA scope clause.

I think that the UAX route is currently an E170. So I guess that I wouldn't fall over in shock if the route isn't served by F9 either......

I suppose whether of not F9 could do this after this forthcoming separation (or whatever?)fro RJET would depend upon the status particulars of the separation of F9 and RJET.

lhcvg · Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:07 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 37):
How does a CR7 make it that far? That sounds like a route I wouldn't want to fly on for a long period of time in a CRJ

Easy: according to Great Circle Mapper, that's a 1069-mile flight, while according to the Airliners.Net info page,

"Range with 70 passengers and reserves 3152km (1702nm). ER variant range with 70 passengers and reserves 3763km (2032nm)."

Well within the range of the CR7, even allowing for the possibility of massive headwinds and some rerouting to avoid wx en route. For comparison, the only CRJ that can make that is a 200LR, but an ERJ or E-Jet could do it. If you think that's long, just be glad you're not on OO's n/s IAD-COS flight!

acjflyer · Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:20 pm

I recently flew UA CVG-DEN and it was on an ERJ 145XR. It was a long ride in such a small plane but it wasn't unbearable and it clearly had the range to do it.

lhcvg · Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting ACJFLYER (Reply 40):
I recently flew UA CVG-DEN and it was on an ERJ 145XR. It was a long ride in such a small plane but it wasn't unbearable and it clearly had the range to do it.

I knew they used to have the ERJ on one of the DEN flights, but I wasn't aware they still did. When I've looked at it recently it's been CR7 both times, but they must still sub in the ERJ on certain days.

FWAERJ · Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:12 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 35):
What if it is UA Mainline metal?

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 36):
That shouldn't be an issue as it's served by a GoJet CR7.

The scope clause issue only affects new, non-grandfathered F9 routes from DEN that are currently served by United Express S5 E170s or (soon) RW Q400s.

UA mainline (sUA and sCO) is exempt, as are all other United Express carriers not owned by Republic Airways Holdings (such as OO, EV, G7, AX, C5, YV, and 3M).

[Edited 2012-06-23 12:33:11]

michman · Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:55 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 31):
CVG-MIA (DL and AA)

Do you mean in the past? There's no DL service between CVG and MIA currently.

PHX787 · Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting michman (Reply 43):
Do you mean in the past? There's no DL service between CVG and MIA currently.

DL in the past, MIA currently (are you sure there isn't service? that sounds like a really bad route for DL/DL connection to cut)

lhcvg · Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:38 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 44):
DL in the past, MIA currently (are you sure there isn't service? that sounds like a really bad route for DL/DL connection to cut)

Yes and no. Obviously MIA is a big name, but keep in mind DL (like most except AA) has much more at FLL, which still sees 2x from CVG on mainline. AA flies it for connecting traffic, so that helps buoy the route for them. For DL, with their decently large FLL operation, it makes more sense to send pax there. Even during the hub days I remember MIA often being less than FLL from CVG, either/both in frequencies and mainline vs. regional metal.

PHX787 · Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:58 pm

Rumor now circulating: US going to start PHX-CVG starting sometime in January. Nothing for sure though, this is just from my uncle who worked for OH for a while.

My dad also told me that the Convention and Visitors Bureau, which has a lot of influence at the airport, is "in serious talks" with an airline (WN, US, or something) about getting that route started up again.

flyguy89 · Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting michman (Reply 43):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 31):
CVG-MIA (DL and AA)

Do you mean in the past? There's no DL service between CVG and MIA currently.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 46):
Rumor now circulating: US going to start PHX-CVG starting sometime in January. Nothing for sure though, this is just from my uncle who worked for OH for a while.

My dad also told me that the Convention and Visitors Bureau, which has a lot of influence at the airport, is "in serious talks" with an airline (WN, US, or something) about getting that route started up again.

Great to hear, but I'll take it with a grain of salt until something is actually announced. I can't see WN really jumping on the route though until they move their DAY operation, US is probably the most likely carrier.

PHX787 · Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:22 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
Great to hear, but I'll take it with a grain of salt until something is actually announced.

That's what I'm doing but I've heard it about 5 times in the last week and a half or so.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
US is probably the most likely carrier.

That's what I'm thinking too.

lhcvg · Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:41 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 46):
My dad also told me that the Convention and Visitors Bureau, which has a lot of influence at the airport, is "in serious talks" with an airline (WN, US, or something) about getting that route started up again.

I wouldn't say CincyUSA has substantive influence as to what service goes to CVG. They can lobby carriers, but all of the decisions are up to KCAB. Let's face it: regional entities influencing what goes on there is part of what got CVG in trouble in the first place, and Mok in particular understands that he has to have a powerful KCAB that can stand on it's own and make credible decisions in-house.

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