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yeogeo
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:54 am

Quoting flyguy1 (Reply 40):
Any major ... mid-western city will connect fine to this potential flight.

I'll break it to you gently: That's delusional.  
Perhaps a connection could be made, but to get to HKG why would any right-minded midwesterner do such a thing?
yeo
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PHX787
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 49):
My money is on SEA.
Quoting flyguy1 (Reply 40):
Any major east coast city/major mid-western city will connect fine to this potential flight. All the big cities have multiple dailies into JFK.
Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 38):
If DL does indeed attempt direct service to HKG from another gateway, JFK would be the most logical.
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 32):
Quoting enilria (Reply 31):
It's definitely moving to JFK.

It's got my vote!
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 28):
It's SEA. My second choice is ATL on a 77L.
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 29):
I see LAX-HKG easily on a 77L or 772

Leave it to us to make this sound like a huge gambling bet. Vegas should look to A.net for potential betting ideas.      
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FL787
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:36 am

Makes sense if they move HKG from DTW to JFK. DTW to Asia ties are predominantly industrial whereas HKG and NYC are obviously world financial centers. And finance types are exactly the kind of passenger DL is looking to capture in NYC. Combined with the new terminal it's sure to go a long way towards helping DL "win" NYC whether the route makes money or not.
 
bennett123
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:57 am

What impact will this have on DL operations in DTW?.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:37 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 22):
Regardless of mild backtracking, DTW allowed a large number of DL stations to enjoy one connection service to HKG. Moving the flight to LAX or SEA makes many more DL stations have to take 2 connections to get to HKG

Unless you live on the west coast, between DL and AS, many cities across America could enjoy DL 1 stop service to HKG via SEA. The feed AS provides would provide enough to fill the plane after the O/D market. Plus as has been stated, DL will then enjoy being the only carrier flying non-stop SEA-HKG, as opposed to competing with CX to JFK, LAX or SFO. Aircraft utilization would be better too.

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 23):
There is no major backtracking issue with DTW. This flight was mainly used to connect to the East/Southeast USA with a few connections to the Midwest. I think anything west of ORD/MSP would connect through SFO/LAX.

By opening a west coast to HKG direct flight, instead of connecting only 1/3 of America to the only DL non-stop to HKG from the US, you can connect 99% of it, again, between AS & DL there would be enough connecting opportunities, if they flew it out of SEA same time BR leaves 12m-1a, you could connect almost every AS & DL SEA flight to this HKG flight.

Quoting enilria (Reply 30):
It's definitely moving to JFK. I had already heard they were going to announce a major new int'l route there in conjunction with the promotion of the new terminal

I almost always agree with you, in fact I hesitated even posting back, but I think SEA is a better option, however this does not mean I'm right, I respectfully disagree with you about JFK.

Quoting NYCAdvantage (Reply 35):
I will say that around September DL Should start paying less for Jet A fuel from the north east, in other word they could start competing from JFK with a better cushion than before, plus they will have T4 somewhere in the spring of 2013, if there is a place to run O & D New York is the place.

I read in another thread the savings from their oil refinery purchase broke down to an average of $3.00 a ticket sold.
I am not informed enough to be sure, just relaying what I read, and wondering if that refinery purchase will really ever be a deciding factor in new routes or aircraft purchases. Of course that info could not be correct as well, guess DL only knows.

Quoting nwa744tpa (Reply 9):
DTW-HKG is to be moved to another city in the near future. I fly this route frequently, but do not have the authoriity to "announce" the location. Most of my flights are full, but apparently there are other cities that may get a better yield. This from the top level management.Sorry, I can't say anymore than that. HKG-DTW has various options. It will be reallocated to a higher yield location. take your pick airliners! (no-it is not just throught NRT)
Quoting nwa744tpa (Reply 44):
Ok- you guys (and maybe girls) have figured it out

Figured what out? the city is my guess, it's narrowed to 2 cities, when I go to this city do I need an umbrella or a suit for the theatre?

Quoting Squid (Reply 49):
My money is on SEA. I think it is a logical jumping-off point. Traffic can easily be routed through Seattle from NYC as well as other hubs, and I think there is also enough O&D in SEA coupled with Alaska Airlines connections to make SEA work. I also think it will be with either the A330 or the 777

I think you must have read my post 13, exactly what I was saying, hope we are right.
 

[Edited 2012-06-25 04:17:45]
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AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
bobnwa
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:46 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 53):
What impact will this have on DL operations in DTW?.

I would say it will have minimal impact on the operation at DTW since is only one flight.
 
peanuts
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 53):
What impact will this have on DL operations in DTW?.

Without HKG, DL/DTW still has more transpacific capacity than any single carrier transpacific gateway except UA/SFO. DTW is a sizeable hub with service to NRT, NGO, HDN, ICN, PEK and PVG.



Allow me to elaborate more on my previous post #27:

Mainland-HKG is NOT going away for DL. DL is merely making some adjustments for things to come. DTW-HKG is likely not doing well enough to keep it going until other plans go into effect or the equipment is better suited elsewhere for now.

I think JFK is very much into play. DL is building NYC because it sees a potential cash cow. Hence the LGA build up. LGA is key for DL in order to sew up the NYC premium market (including corporate contracts).
Couple this with what is going on at JFK. DL also has built up LHR not because it looks pretty on the map; it's what the premium customer simply demands: service to premium markets.
HKG fits into this as well.

Here's how DL will proceed IMHO:

DL pilots are voting on a new contract that includes allowing DL to start a transpacific JV, similar to what they currently have in place with AF/KL.
HKG will likely restart as part of a new JV agreement from JFK and/or SEA and/or LAX.
Likely partners in a JV could be KE and CZ. There are some uncertainties as to what 3rd party code sharing is permitted to/from HKG.

Once DL has a transpacific JV in place, it will be fully ready for a healthy presence beyond Japan. In the current economic environment, DL is not willing to go it alone.

Some folks may gloat at DL's weakness in Mainland-Beyond Japan non stop traffic relative to UA's network. Keep in mind DL is very strong and dominant on its own metal from USA-Japan. About 85% of DL's pacific capacity is to/from Japan.
UA choose to pretty much walk away from NRT years ago in favor of more China flying. If and when China's economy falters a bit, UA will feel that directly in its pockets.
Having a strong presence in a hub (NRT) helps to cut losses during off peak seasons. Also: when the economy outside of Japan is weakening, as it is now, DL still has a strong presence in which to connect passengers from throughout Asia.

Now, both UA and AA have stronger partnerships currently with their Japanese partners so some of DL's NRT advantage will be negated. DL will probably go the JV route with a carrier outside of Japan in order to stay competitive. So in essence: UA is tackling their relative Japan weakness with a Japan centric JV in place. DL will go the other way around: They own Japan already and will tackle beyond Japan with a JV of their own, with KE and/or a Chinese carrier.

In the end, holding on to NRT will prove to be OK. It's important right now though for DL to seek the JV beyond Japan and build on that.

HKG is the largest market from both NYC and LAX that SkyTeam doesn't serve non stop. It's almost a certainty we will see DL metal on one or both of these routes IMO. With or without a JV in place. Most likely with though.

[Edited 2012-06-25 10:18:34]
 
CV880
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 54):
By opening a west coast to HKG direct flight, instead of connecting only 1/3 of America to the only DL non-stop to HKG from the US, you can connect 99% of it


SEA would be a logical connecting point if it were connected to a multitude of cities to the east. UA has a huge advantage with single connects to HKG via EWR/ORD/SFO where DL only has that potential advantage via DTW/MSP/ATL and a lesser degree via JFK. The move away from DTW is kind of surprising as it has connex from everywhere. Unless DL intends to beef up direct flights from SEA across the USA, the move from DTW makes no sense unless DL wants to make a "statement" in NYC. It would be nice if DL were to go to 2 flights, one from each coast.
 
peanuts
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:35 pm

Quoting CV880 (Reply 57):
Unless DL intends to beef up direct flights from SEA across the USA

I still think merger mania isn't over yet. DL likes SEA. With or without AS. They can go organic growth or they can get closer yet with AS. People hate hearing this on a.net.
Let's give it a little more time to see what transpires...  

I will say this: AS would give DL a lot of more reasons to build Asia from LAX and/or SEA or even PDX, for that matter.

[Edited 2012-06-25 10:36:39]
 
PHX787
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:06 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 58):
I will say this: AS would give DL a lot of more reasons to build Asia from LAX and/or SEA or even PDX, for that matter.

You bring up a good point with AS. Every time a friend of mine comes back to the USA from Japan, they go through SEA from NRT and fly AS to here in the valley. It's a really good partnership but people are always saying "Oh, they'll go with AA or US" or something like that. If AS will merge with anybody, it will be DL, and SEA will become a valuable Asian hub (already sort-of is) for DL.
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deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 16):
DTW to HKG can be a 77E one day and a 77L the next

Doesn't mean a thing to PAXs unless they would rather hear the T800 over the GE90.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 56):

DL pilots are voting on a new contract that includes allowing DL to start a transpacific JV, similar to what they currently have in place with AF/KL.

Delta can start a JV with or without the TA. The TA supposedly makes it harder for Delta to cut capacity while the other airlines grow or stay the same as we have seen with the AF/KL/AZ JV.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 56):
Likely partners in a JV could be KE and CZ.

CZ and MU would be out unless US/China hit an open Skies(which IIRC they were suppose to start talking about this year)

Quoting peanuts (Reply 58):

AS almost has to happen at this point(if Delta wants to grow out west) SEA doesn't have the gate space for much growth and they are already having to remote park at LAX due to lack of space.

AS merger fixes both problems and give Delta a little room to grow at both places.


I'm just going to point out, I would be a little shocked to see LAX or SEA- HKG before PEK from LAX and PVG from SEA.
 
cargolex
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:03 pm

We're always hearing about how AS will merge with this or that carrier and what an advantage that would be. I, for one, don't believe that will happen anytime soon with any carrier, and that DL/AA/US have no real interest in taking on AS' network. Whatever AS does, absorbing into DL wouldn't do it better, more profitably, or easier.

That said, I firmly believe AS will continue to partner with AA and DL, and to favor partnerships with Skyteam and OW carriers (Korean, AF, LAN, BA).

It would be fantastic and practical for DL to bring a 77L between HKG and SEA every day or even semi-daily. It would also potentially poach some southeast-Asia connection traffic from EK, LH, and BA.

That said, I'll believe it when I see it.
 
ANA787
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 58):

I will say this: AS would give DL a lot of more reasons to build Asia from LAX and/or SEA or even PDX, for that matter.

The only thing I can see being added from PDX is CDG and restarting HNL. Maybe also restarting Seoul nonstop from PDX.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:15 pm

Quoting cargolex (Reply 62):
We're always hearing about how AS will merge with this or that carrier and what an advantage that would be. I, for one, don't believe that will happen anytime soon with any carrier, and that DL/AA/US have no real interest in taking on AS' network. Whatever AS does, absorbing into DL wouldn't do it better, more profitably, or easier.

That said, I firmly believe AS will continue to partner with AA and DL, and to favor partnerships with Skyteam and OW carriers (Korean, AF, LAN, BA).

Well said, and I agree. Does DL really want to fly to SCC or routes like SJC-LIH (that work for AS)? I still contend that most of AS's route structure would disappear if they were ever let DL buy them out. DL isn't stupid either (I hope). I think they would be smart to leave well enough alone, let AS do what they do best, and reap the benefits of a strong code sharing partnership of an independent AS.
 
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compensateme
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:38 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 54):
By opening a west coast to HKG direct flight, instead of connecting only 1/3 of America to the only DL non-stop to HKG from the US, you can connect 99% of it, again, between AS & DL there would be enough connecting opportunities, if they flew it out of SEA same time BR leaves 12m-1a, you could connect almost every AS & DL SEA flight to this HKG flight.

x 3/4 of the population, and all of DL's core Eastern/Midwestern markets, is better served through DTW rather than SEA.

x For DL's core Eastern/Midwestern markets, transiting through SEA is a longer travel experience than DTW; adding the second connection adds significantly more time.

x The sole advantage of travel through SEA is access to the SFO & LAX markets (SEA itself has little local traffic), but primarily price-sensitive passengers would consider the DL flight.

x DL & AS operate a code-share agreement, not a joint-venture. Given that, for DL's core Eastern/Midwestern markets, travel via NRT will be as fast as SEA, why would DL want to push these passengers through SEA and split revenue with AS?

x HKG has ample direct service from LAX/SFO and SEA-HKG is a very small market.

If DL couldn't make DTW-HKG work, I can't see why they'd try SEA-HKG - especially since it's out of the range of the 767.
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BoeingGuy
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 61):
AS almost has to happen at this point(if Delta wants to grow out west) SEA doesn't have the gate space for much growth and they are already having to remote park at LAX due to lack of space.

That's a great reason for a merger, just to gain some gate space at an airport. I'm sure DL would love to get into intra-Alaska flying and up-and-down West Coast flying (not to mention loose a significant amount of AA and OneWorld codeshare revenue) and go through the major hassles of an airline merger just to gain a few gates at SEA and LAX.
 
commavia
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 56):
Some folks may gloat at DL's weakness in Mainland-Beyond Japan non stop traffic relative to UA's network. Keep in mind DL is very strong and dominant on its own metal from USA-Japan. About 85% of DL's pacific capacity is to/from Japan.
UA choose to pretty much walk away from NRT years ago in favor of more China flying.

First, I would hardly say Delta is "dominant on its own metal from USA-Japan." In terms of schedule presence, United has just as good if not better of a Japan network, including nonstop flights from basically all of the largest U.S. O&D markets to NRT, plus SFO-KIX. Delta has a larger presence in non-NRT Japan, but in NRT, it's essentially a wash. (And that's critical, of course, since NRT is the Delta "hub.")

Second, I would hardly say United chose to "walk away" from NRT. Again, United has essentially the same U.S.-NRT network that Delta has. The only difference is that United now uses NRT as a hub only for those markets where it makes sense, either for economic or operational reasons. Everything else has largely shifted to nonstops. The key difference here isn't that United chose to walk away from NRT, but rather, United had viable alternatives to NRT because of the advent of longer-range aircraft (i.e., 777s) and United's exceptionally well-placed hubs for Asia (SFO, ORD, LAX, EWR). Delta has no such alternative - outside of some flying from DTW and SEA, NRT is it for them. So Delta's reliance on NRT doesn't represent some larger commitment on Delta's part, but rather a simple lack of many viable alternatives.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 56):
If and when China's economy falters a bit, UA will feel that directly in its pockets.

Well, such is the nature of the beast. When any airline is big anywhere, they will naturally be more exposed when things go badly in that place.

United may feel it as things inevitably continue to slow down in China, but Delta felt it when Japan had a tsunami. AA will feel it when inflationary pressures slow things down in Brazil, but Delta is feeling it now as things collapse in the Eurozone.

Again, such is the nature of the beast - that doesn't really represent any great strategic advantage or disadvantage for any particular airline in any particular place. Short of being dominant everywhere, which no airline can or will be, this is what it is - for United, Delta, and every airline.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 56):
Also: when the economy outside of Japan is weakening, as it is now, DL still has a strong presence in which to connect passengers from throughout Asia.

I'm not sure I buy that. Delta has a "presence in which to connect passengers from throughout Asia" with or without a strong or weak economy anywhere else. Again - they have no alternative, so that's what they have. But that's hardly a hedge. If things slow in the Pacific Rim in general, Delta will definitely feel it - whether they hub in NRT or SEA or anywhere else. The argument could be made that Delta might be at a slight advantage in that hubbing over NRT leads to somewhat shorter (i.e., less fuel-intensive) sectors within Asia, but the countervailing argument is that those sectors are also generally more competitive, with typically 3-4 or other airlines flying the same routes ex-NRT, and in which Delta is often the smallest player.

And that, of course, leads to the larger question, which is as Delta continues to shrink capacity in the intra-Asia ex-NRT markets, as has been happening pretty much continuously since before the merger, at what point do they fall below a certain critical mass beyond which some of these markets are simply not sustainable. Some might argue that is what has already happened with PUS. What about PEK or PVG? With Delta increasingly facing greater and greater competition in the nonstop U.S.-PEK/PVG markets, and with Delta certainly not seeing any big abatement of competition in the local NRT-China markets, how long can Delta continue to make these once-daily 757s/767s/A330s work?

Indeed, it has long been my prediction that Delta's long-term end-state will in many ways come to resemble United's "walking away" from NRT: nonstops from NRT to U.S. hubs plus a few big O&D markets, and then connections beyond NRT to the largest Asian markets that cannot be served nonstop from Delta's U.S. hubs either because of economic, operational or competitive reasons. By that I mean, specifically: BKK, SIN, TPE, MNL. I could see markets like PEK, PVG, HKG and ICN (especially post Delta-Korean ATI/JV) shifting towards nonstop flights to Delta's U.S. hubs.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 56):
Now, both UA and AA have stronger partnerships currently with their Japanese partners so some of DL's NRT advantage will be negated. DL will probably go the JV route with a carrier outside of Japan in order to stay competitive.

Korean will be an exceptional ATI/JV partner. They and Delta already have a strong relationship, which the ATI/JV will only enhance, plus ICN is an exceptional hub for connections.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 56):
HKG is the largest market from both NYC and LAX that SkyTeam doesn't serve non stop. It's almost a certainty we will see DL metal on one or both of these routes IMO. With or without a JV in place. Most likely with though.

I could see JFK - LAX seems like a stretch. I agree with some others that Delta may well attempt JFK-HKG because it is a huge local market, very business-heavy, and generally high-yielding. Nonetheless, I think Delta will have to work to make that market work: Cathay is absolutely entrenched, with a massive amount of lift, an excellent onboard product, strong connections at both ends, and the AA/oneworld tie-in.
 
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compensateme
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 61):
AS almost has to happen at this point(if Delta wants to grow out west) SEA doesn't have the gate space for much growth and they are already having to remote park at LAX due to lack of space.

Wouldn't it have been cheaper to retain the gates it relinquishment from the NW hook-up rather than pursing another merger?
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netjetandy
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:52 am

Please make it Atlanta! I am absolutely shocked by this announcement. I also fly this at least 3 or 4 times a year and the flight is always full..completely full.

DTW one would think is the logical home though. It usually leaves Detroit and flies right over the North Pole.

It's always about a $6k ticket for Business Class. They have to be making money!
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:00 am

Quoting flyguy1 (Reply 40):
Any major east coast city/major mid-western city will connect fine to this potential flight. All the big cities have multiple dailies into JFK.

So I am flying from BNA, STL, IND, MEM, CVG, CLE or even ATL and I want to fly to HKG - how is it benefitting me to fly through JFK? Now I am going an extra couple hours out of my way and flying into a delay prone airport. Other than the blizzards in 1999/2000 before the McNamara Terminal was built you don't see massive delays at DTW whenever there is a little sprinkle or a snowflurry like you get in the NYC area. You don't get the ground stops due to too much traffic in the airspace like you get around JFK because there aren't any major airports for over 100 miles around DTW. I would rather transfer thru DTW any day than JFK. I would rather get a root canal, colonoscopy, hernia check and a prostate exam at the same time than transfer through one of the NYC airports when there is weather.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 56):
I think JFK is very much into play. DL is building NYC because it sees a potential cash cow

DL should have never posponed the delivery of those Northwest 787s. JFK-HKG would have been a great point to point route for the 787.
 
sr117
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:40 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 70):
So I am flying from BNA, STL, IND, MEM, CVG, CLE or even ATL and I want to fly to HKG - how is it benefitting me to fly through JFK? Now I am going an extra couple hours out of my way and flying into a delay prone airport. Other than the blizzards in 1999/2000 before the McNamara Terminal was built you don't see massive delays at DTW whenever there is a little sprinkle or a snowflurry like you get in the NYC area. You don't get the ground stops due to too much traffic in the airspace like you get around JFK because there aren't any major airports for over 100 miles around DTW. I would rather transfer thru DTW any day than JFK. I would rather get a root canal, colonoscopy, hernia check and a prostate exam at the same time than transfer through one of the NYC airports when there is weather.

Completely agree with you, however, unfortunately, despite the wonderful connecting opportunities and the great facilities at DTW, it just wasn't enough to make it profitable. JFK on the other hand, despite all the problems you mention, is where the money is, so it just might work if that's where it gets switched to.
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:47 am

I will put my money on JFK. They need more Asia converge to better compete with UA. And like some of the others have said its connecting two huge financial centers of the world. I bet this route transfer had allot to do with getting a few big corporate contacts that wanted HKG non stop before making a commitment to DL.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:09 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 58):
I will say this: AS would give DL a lot of more reasons to build Asia from LAX and/or SEA or even PDX, for that matter.

This is what I've been saying, I think both AS & DL are lucky to have the bond they do.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 61):

AS merger fixes both problems and give Delta a little room to grow at both places.

Any merger would kill what is the spirit of Alaska, and DL wouldn't be into flying to OME or operate a BLI-HNL flight.
AS is best left AS. AS & DL merging would fix nothing, but it would create things that would need to be fixed later.

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 63):
The only thing I can see being added from PDX is CDG and restarting HNL. Maybe also restarting Seoul nonstop from PDX.

I'd love to see the HNL flight come back, but there are already 2 flights a day currently, it may be too much lift. I would love to see a CDG flight, but doubt it will happen, when they can just fly pax to SEA on AS and catch the n/s from there.
I think if a SEL flight happens it will be on OZ or KE a few days a week, Cargo ICN-PDX has been strong in the past.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 64):

Well said, and I agree. Does DL really want to fly to SCC or routes like SJC-LIH (that work for AS)? I still contend that most of AS's route structure would disappear if they were ever let DL buy them out. DL isn't stupid either (I hope). I think they would be smart to leave well enough alone, let AS do what they do best, and reap the benefits of a strong code sharing partnership of an independent AS.

I 100% agree, Thanks for the correct insight. AS is AS because they are AS, I believe AS has said before they are not interested in any type of merger, they are quite successful doing exactly what they are doing, why ever mess with that which is golden already?
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
ANA787
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:39 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 73):
I think if a SEL flight happens it will be on OZ or KE a few days a week, Cargo ICN-PDX has been strong in the past.

   PDX-ICN on KE A330 would have the greatest potential IMO. Alaska, as a codeshare partner, would also provide feed for such a flight.
 
United Airline
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:06 am

I suppose the new route can be SEA-HKG or LAX-HKG or JFK-HKG. Maybe MSP-HKG? They did it before. What about ATL-HKG?
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:42 am

Sorry, not getting into the DL/AS pissing match. I think it will happen. some don't. No need to talk about it again.

Quoting commavia (Reply 67):
First, I would hardly say Delta is "dominant on its own metal from USA-Japan." In terms of schedule presence, United has just as good if not better of a Japan network, including nonstop flights from basically all of the largest U.S. O&D markets to NRT, plus SFO-KIX. Delta has a larger presence in non-NRT Japan, but in NRT, it's essentially a wash. (And that's critical, of course, since NRT is the Delta "hub.")

not even a wash. UAL has more flights and seats to NRT this summer. (1 extra flight ~300 more seats) *note Mainland only.*
If HNL was added in Delta would be a bit larger.

Quoting commavia (Reply 67):

Korean will be an exceptional ATI/JV partner. They and Delta already have a strong relationship, which the ATI/JV will only enhance, plus ICN is an exceptional hub for connections.

they already have the ATI, so a JV just seems right.

Quoting commavia (Reply 67):

I'm not sure I buy that. Delta has a "presence in which to connect passengers from throughout Asia" with or without a strong or weak economy anywhere else. Again - they have no alternative, so that's what they have. But that's hardly a hedge. If things slow in the Pacific Rim in general, Delta will definitely feel it - whether they hub in NRT or SEA or anywhere else. The argument could be made that Delta might be at a slight advantage in that hubbing over NRT leads to somewhat shorter (i.e., less fuel-intensive) sectors within Asia, but the countervailing argument is that those sectors are also generally more competitive, with typically 3-4 or other airlines flying the same routes ex-NRT, and in which Delta is often the smallest player.

agreed

Quoting commavia (Reply 67):

Indeed, it has long been my prediction that Delta's long-term end-state will in many ways come to resemble United's "walking away" from NRT: nonstops from NRT to U.S. hubs plus a few big O&D markets, and then connections beyond NRT to the largest Asian markets that cannot be served nonstop from Delta's U.S. hubs either because of economic, operational or competitive reasons. By that I mean, specifically: BKK, SIN, TPE, MNL. I could see markets like PEK, PVG, HKG and ICN (especially post Delta-Korean ATI/JV) shifting towards nonstop flights to Delta's U.S. hubs.

agreed
 
panamair
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:44 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 76):
not even a wash. UAL has more flights and seats to NRT this summer. (1 extra flight ~300 more seats) *note Mainland only.*
If HNL was added in Delta would be a bit larger.

Actually, NRT-Mainland is kind of a wash. Taking peak season (say last half of July)

NRT-Mainland:

DL total weekly flights: 56
UA total weekly flights: 56

DL total weekly seats: 16,793
UA total weekly seats: 16,632


NRT-USA (Mainland + HNL):

DL total weekly flights: 77
UA total weekly flights: 63

DL total weekly seats: 23,758
UA total weekly seats: 19,250

Basis for calculations:

DL: NRT-HNL (3x daily); NRT-SFO / LAX / SEA / PDX / MSP / DTW / ATL / JFK
UA: NRT-HNL / SFO (2x daily) / LAX / SEA / IAH / ORD / EWR / IAD

For UA, sUA 3-class 777s come in many configs, so I used the one with largest number of seats - 269
sCO 2-class 777s come in two configs, I used the largest one (276 seats)
sUA 744: 374 seats

For DL: used the lower capacity 74S (376 seats) for NRT-JFK/ATL, and the 'old' 744 (393 seats) for NRT-HNL / DTW

Of course, if one looked at all of Japan - USA, then DL is quite a bit larger:

DL: 37,051 seats weekly
UA: 21,133 seats weekly
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:49 pm

My money is on DTW-MNL. Lots of O& D traffic.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:56 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 77):

Don't forget the two daily flights into HND for DL. DTW/LAX-HND both on A332 I believe.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 77):
UA: NRT-HNL / SFO (2x daily) / LAX / SEA / IAH / ORD / EWR / IAD

Oh crap. Ha your right. I misread the UA timetable. I had ORD-NRT as 2x daily 777/744 but the 777 is ANA. So that put them on the same number of flights and very close in seats. sorry about that.
Anyways, I thought DL was larger and they would have had LAX/SFO/PDX been what they were right after the merger(74 for LAX and 332s for SFO/PDX)

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 79):

Both are daily 332s for now.
 
peanuts
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 67):
I would hardly say United chose to "walk away" from NRT

On NRT Interport flying DL has 41% more flights than UA. That's huge. UA clearly walked away from most of it. Granted, UA was also in the position to walk away from it due to some great and strong O&D opportunities that NW, and later DL, did not have.

NRT-PUS will go away. And I believe NRT-ICN will go as well, once a KE JV is in place. So we will see a transition of some sorts for DL at NRT, but not as big as what UA has done. DL may actually replace some of that flying by adding NRT-CGK and a few others, depending on gov't approvals.

Quoting commavia (Reply 67):
Delta has no such alternative - outside of some flying from DTW and SEA, NRT is it for them. So Delta's reliance on NRT doesn't represent some larger commitment on Delta's part, but rather a simple lack of many viable alternatives.

This will change over the next 3 yrs. If DL is to go full circle on its NYC plans, it will have to include flying beyond NRT.
LAX will play a big part once a JV is in place with an asian carrier(s).
DL has viable alternatives alright, I just don't think they wanna go about it without a JV in place.

Quoting commavia (Reply 67):
I'm not sure I buy that. Delta has a "presence in which to connect passengers from throughout Asia" with or without a strong or weak economy anywhere else. Again - they have no alternative, so that's what they have. But that's hardly a hedge.

But it is a hedge, in a way. As opposed to investing resources into 3 non stop Mainland-HKG flights, it has one from NRT. All the 8 Mainland-NRT flights funnel transfers into NRT-HKG. In an economic difficult climate, how is that hardly a hedge?
Granted, when the economy and competition heats up, DL would have to make a move. With regards to Mainland-HKG I believe they will, again.

Like I said, DL is in a bit of a quandary, it's not a perfect world for them, by any stretch. I'm still not sure if they have the right equipment for all the opportunities they may have.
I do believe that in our current economic situation, DL's interport flying remains relevant. UA believes that as well, but they did put more emphasis on overflying NRT.
 
ANA787
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:02 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 81):
NRT-PUS will go away. And I believe NRT-ICN will go as well, once a KE JV is in place. So we will see a transition of some sorts for DL at NRT, but not as big as what UA has done. DL may actually replace some of that flying by adding NRT-CGK and a few others, depending on gov't approvals.

Let's get a NRT-CGK, NRT-KUL and NRT-KHH.
 
commavia
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:25 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 81):
On NRT Interport flying DL has 41% more flights than UA. That's huge.

And both JAL and ANA have more than double the flying of Delta. That's even more huge. But it's all irrelevant. The key is that the local Tokyo-Asia market is, has been, and always will be secondary for what is, has been, and always will be a U.S. airline. Sure, Delta (and United) can carry local passengers in these markets, but all of them (with the exception of the beach markets) are oriented expressly for U.S. connections. As such, the fact that Delta has more capacity in the local Tokyo-Asia market is hardly a measure of strength - to the contrary, it is a measure of United's superior U.S. network that has better-oriented hubs for nonstop flights overflying Tokyo, and it's a measure of Delta's disadvantage in being exposed to farflung markets in which they are neither the local, nor dominant, carrier at either end. Again - I think the fact that United managed to operate essentially the same size network U.S.-Tokyo as Delta and also operate a vastly large U.S.-Asia network over Tokyo speaks volumes.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 81):
UA clearly walked away from most of it. Granted, UA was also in the position to walk away from it due to some great and strong O&D opportunities that NW, and later DL, did not have.

Well that's the key. You can say "walk away," bit it was really "walking towards" something far superior. I have not a single doubt in my mind that Delta, too, would be "walking away" from most of its Tokyo-Asia network in a split second if they had the opportunity. The problem is that Delta's hubs simply aren't as well-oriented as United's to replace the Tokyo connections, and thus Delta is - at least for now - stuck with what it has, while United has moved on ("walked away").

Quoting peanuts (Reply 81):
NRT-PUS will go away. And I believe NRT-ICN will go as well, once a KE JV is in place. So we will see a transition of some sorts for DL at NRT, but not as big as what UA has done. DL may actually replace some of that flying by adding NRT-CGK and a few others, depending on gov't approvals.

Well I respectfully disagree. Again - I think Delta will do just as United has done: move the flights to nonstops from U.S. hubs that can support them, and keep everything else connected over Tokyo. PEK, PVG, HKG and ICN can all be served - operationally and economically - nonstop from the U.S. SIN, BKK, MNL and TPE cannot.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 81):
This will change over the next 3 yrs. If DL is to go full circle on its NYC plans, it will have to include flying beyond NRT.

True, although I question how much Delta would be able to profitably support. New York to Asia - particularly beyond Japan - is a long, fuel-intensive flight. I'm not saying Delta won't try it, and I'm not saying it will fail if they do, but I think it will be quite a task for them.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 81):
LAX will play a big part once a JV is in place with an asian carrier(s).

Yeah - I've been hearing that for years and have the same doubts about it now that I have had. Delta is already the weakest of the three major U.S. carriers in Los Angeles, with arguably the weakest international partners in the market overall (at least when it comes to Asia/Europe). A JV with Korean will help, but I still question just how much non-Japan Asia Delta could make work nonstop from LAX. I think they'd be better off focusing on the markets where they are (a) stronger and/or (b) less likely to face much competition. That means SEA, DTW, ATL, and, yes, even JFK.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 81):
DL has viable alternatives alright, I just don't think they wanna go about it without a JV in place.

Perhaps that is what they're waiting for.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 81):
But it is a hedge, in a way. As opposed to investing resources into 3 non stop Mainland-HKG flights, it has one from NRT. All the 8 Mainland-NRT flights funnel transfers into NRT-HKG. In an economic difficult climate, how is that hardly a hedge?

I still don't get the logic. It's not a hedge - it's just a function of being bigger or smaller in a certain market. AA is more exposed to South America and less exposed to Europe. That doesn't mean AA has "hedged" their presence in Europe - it just means they're smaller there. Thus, when things are going badly in Europe, and better in South America, like today, AA will benefit. Same here. As things slow in China, the airlines most exposed there will feel it more. But that's just the nature of being big or small somewhere - not a hedge. Conversely - using your example - funneling everything over NRT means Delta is more exposed to Japan, and so will do worse when Japan does worse (Exhibit A: tsunami). Again - it's not a hedge, it's just being big or small here vs there.
 
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compensateme
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 83):
to the contrary, it is a measure of United's superior U.S. network that has better-oriented hubs for nonstop flights overflying Tokyo, and it's a measure of Delta's disadvantage in being exposed to farflung markets in which they are neither the local, nor dominant, carrier at either end.

Yeah, and AA's going to launch a 773ER on the gold mine that is DFW-HKG, further forcing DL to rescind capacity. We've read the rhetoric on these forums before, specificity from our MIA-based friend. (DFW's no larger a market than DTW into HKG, and heck, that's a lot of premium seats to fill... especially among many OneWorld faithful who will always prefer CX.)

We don't know UA's or DL's actual performances. For the interim, DL may have decided it is more beneficial to exploit the Narita hub. Asia's still a niche market, and in the future DL may pursue another strategy. Don't underestimate the Narita operation status quo -- it consistently contribution more than 25% of NW's total revenue.

[Edited 2012-06-26 16:54:20]
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commavia
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:24 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 84):
Yeah, and AA's going to launch a 773ER on the gold mine that is DFW-HKG, further forcing DL to rescind capacity. We've read the rhetoric on these forums before, specificity from our MIA-based friend. (DFW's no larger a market than DTW into HKG, and heck, that's a lot of premium seats to fill... especially among many OneWorld faithful who will always prefer CX.)

Well I'm not going to compare DFW-HKG to DTW-HKG, or predict what impact any hypothetical AA DFW-HKG operation might or might not have on Delta, but I'm not sure DFW-HKG is quite as hopeless an enterprise as you imply. There is a large amount of commercial linkages between Texas and China, and the market currently has no nonstop service. DFW is a massive hub - the largest in the world after ATL - and that would be the single only flight from China to the American South (which is among the most economically vibrant regions in the U.S. these days). And, of course, DFW and HKG are both huge oneworld hubs and the connectivity over the two would be massive - there are some "faithful" who will "always prefer" CX, but there is certainly also plenty of "faithful" who will "always prefer" AA - I know many of them.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 84):
For the interim, DL may have decided it is more beneficial to exploit the Narita hub.

Well again - I don't think anybody is disputing that. They don't really have much option at the moment, so there best option is to exploit the Narita hub for all they can. But I suspect they will find steadily declining returns as the competitive landscape continues to evolve - and nearly entirely in the favor of Delta's competitors, not Delta itself.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 84):
Asia's still a niche market

No it's not.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 84):
and in the future DL may pursue another strategy.

I don't think they'll have much choice. And I think they know it.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 84):
Don't underestimate the Narita operation status quo

Well, define "status quo," because the Narita hub operation has been "evolving" (generally, "shrinking") for over a decade - before the merger. Northwest began the trend when they began parking the venerable old 747-200s and began transitioning more and more of the Narita flying to A330s, and in some cases 757s. Post-merger, that has continued, with some of the former A330 markets moving to 767s, and several of the 757 markets being dropped altogether. All I foresee, personally, is the continuation of this trend: less capacity, and more focus on nonstops overflying Narita.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 84):
it consistently contribution more than 25% of NW's total revenue.

That seems high, but doesn't seem implausible for revenue for the old Northwest. I doubt it contributes 25% of the revenue for Delta, and I highly doubt it contributes 25% of the profits.
 
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compensateme
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:57 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 85):
No it's not.

Yes, it is. From the USA, its traffic flows are heavily segregated; and tourism between the USA and Asia (especially among USA POS) is weaker than most would expect.

Quoting commavia (Reply 85):
DFW is a massive hub - the largest in the world after ATL - and that would be the single only flight from China to the American South (which is among the most economically vibrant regions in the U.S. these days).

If traffic flows between the South and China were strong, why did DL move its service to DTW? Why isn't DL re-attempting these flights from the world's largest hubs? And AA would be attempting such service with a larger three-cabin aircraft.

Quoting commavia (Reply 85):
Well, define "status quo," because the Narita hub operation has been "evolving" (generally, "shrinking") for over a decade - before the merger. Northwest began the trend when they began parking the venerable old 747-200s and began transitioning more and more of the Narita flying to A330s, and in some cases 757s. Post-merger, that has continued, with some of the former A330 markets moving to 767s, and several of the 757 markets being dropped altogether. All I foresee, personally, is the continuation of this trend: less capacity, and more focus on nonstops overflying Narita.

You do realize DL's flying about the same number of seats from the Continental USA to NRT today that the combined NW+DL operation were pre-merger? That doesn't even consider that PDX gave NW a subsidy to continue service, and service may have been discontinued once it expired had it not been for the 763.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
commavia
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:09 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 86):
Yes, it is.

No, it's not.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 86):
From the USA, its traffic flows are heavily segregated

I have no idea what that means, but it doesn't matter - the market from the U.S. to Asia in general is hardly "niche." It's anything but - it is massive, high-volume, and highly diverse, with an enormous amount of not only business and ethnic/VFR traffic, but also a good amount of leisure/tourism demand as well. Is it as being as U.S.-Europe? No. But that doesn't make it "niche." U.S.-Africa? One might call that "niche." U.S.-Asia. No way.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 86):
and tourism between the USA and Asia (especially among USA POS) is weaker than most would expect.

Allegedly "weak" tourism does not a "niche" market make.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 86):
If traffic flows between the South and China were strong, why did DL move its service to DTW? Why isn't DL re-attempting these flights from the world's largest hubs?

Detroit was better-positioned among Delta's hubs. That tells us nothing about AA. Plus, ATL-PVG is not the same as DFW-HKG - AA would have huge hubs at both ends of the route (something Delta did not have), and DFW is also further west, and thus less circuitous for many routings.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 86):
You do realize DL's flying about the same number of seats from the Continental USA to NRT today that the combined NW+DL operation were pre-merger?

I wasn't referring solely to U.S.-NRT capacity, but also NRT-Asia capacity. And as I said, this shrinkage has by no means been solely as a result of Delta or the merger - this process began years before the merger was ever even being discussed.
 
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compensateme
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:17 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 87):
I wasn't referring solely to U.S.-NRT capacity, but also NRT-Asia capacity. And as I said, this shrinkage has by no means been solely as a result of Delta or the merger - this process began years before the merger was ever even being discussed.

What shrinkage?

- The total Narita operation is about the same size today that it was pre-merger.

- Capacity between CONUS to Narita has remained consistent for over a decade. Sure, there's been some route & aircraft shuffling, but the end result is the same.

To say DL is smaller at Narita today than NW was in the past is dead wrong.

Quoting commavia (Reply 87):
I have no idea what that means, but it doesn't matter -

You don't know what it means, but you're going to argue it?

[Edited 2012-06-26 18:21:03]
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DTWLAX
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:06 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 87):
DFW is also further west, and thus less circuitous for many routings.

How is DFW less circuitous than DTW?
DFW can connect only to the south and south east. DTW can connect to the northeast, the entire eastern seaboard, midwest, southeast.
 
FutureUScapt
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:17 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 88):
What shrinkage?

- The total Narita operation is about the same size today that it was pre-merger.

- Capacity between CONUS to Narita has remained consistent for over a decade. Sure, there's been some route & aircraft shuffling, but the end result is the same.

To say DL is smaller at Narita today than NW was in the past is dead wrong.
DL/NW is down 12% in terms of seats at NRT versus where they were at 10 years ago, so no its not dead wrong to say that. If you consider only DL/NW NRT-Asia capacity, seats are down over 25% versus levels they were at 10 years ago.

[Edited 2012-06-26 20:20:06]
 
mogandoCI
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:30 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 87):
Detroit was better-positioned among Delta's hubs. That tells us nothing about AA. Plus, ATL-PVG is not the same as DFW-HKG - AA would have huge hubs at both ends of the route (something Delta did not have), and DFW is also further west, and thus less circuitous for many routings.

ATL-PVG was also Skyteam hub-to-hub (DL + MU) ... unless you're arguing MU @ Shanghai is a tiny niche operation ??
 
commavia
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:39 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 88):
- Capacity between CONUS to Narita has remained consistent for over a decade. Sure, there's been some route & aircraft shuffling, but the end result is the same.

And yet again, and for the last time - I was not referring only to CONUS-NRT, I was referring to NRT overall. Ten years ago, NW was still operating mostly 747s. Would you like me to list the routings and flight numbers? I have the timetable right in front of me. Every single Northwest flight out of NRT on June 1, 2002 was operated by a 747 with the exception of the A320s (which had just been introduced to NRT soon before) and were operating to TPE, KHH and PUS. Many of the flights that were then being operated by 400+ seat 747s have now been transitioned to 250-300-seat A330s or 777s, and some are now operated with 757s and 767s.

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 89):
How is DFW less circuitous than DTW?

I was comparing DFW to ATL, not DTW.

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 90):
DL/NW is down 12% in terms of seats at NRT versus where they were at 10 years ago, so no its not dead wrong to say that. If you consider only DL/NW NRT-Asia capacity, seats are down over 25% versus levels they were at 10 years ago.

Thank you.
 
commavia
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:43 am

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 91):
ATL-PVG was also Skyteam hub-to-hub (DL + MU) ... unless you're arguing MU @ Shanghai is a tiny niche operation ??

Nope - no need to put words in my mouth in order to conjure ridiculous things to then pull apart (per usual). China Eastern was a member of SkyTeam for about the last six months of Delta's three-year on-and-off ATL-PVG service. For the vast majority of the time that flight operated, it was not an alliance hub-to-hub route.
 
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compensateme
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:51 am

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 90):
DL/NW is down 12% in terms of seats at NRT versus where they were at 10 years ago, so no its not dead wrong to say that.

It's darn close to being even; let's compare the pre-9/11 schedule (summer 2001) to this summer:

CONUS - Narita

2001:
JFK daily 744
DTW 11-weekly 744
MSP 9-weekly 742
LAX daily 742
SFO daily 742
SEA daily 742

2012:
JFK daily 744
DTW daily 744
ATL daily 744
MSP daily 777
LAX daily 777
SFO daily 763
PDX daily 763
SEA daily 333

Beach Market - Narita

2001:
HNL 14-weekly 742
GUM daily 742
SPN daily 742

2012:
HNL 14-weekly 744, 3-weekly 763
GUM 14-weekly 757, 7-weekly 763
SPN 14-weekly 757
ROR 3-weekly 757

Interport

2001:
BKK daily 744
HKG daily 744
MNL daily 744
PEK 3-weekly 742
PVG 4-weekly 742
ICN daily 742
SIN daily 742
TPE daily 742

2012:
BKK daily 333
HKG daily 777
MNL daily 744
PEK daily 767
PVG daily 333
SEL daily 757
SIN daily 777
TPE daily 744
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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compensateme
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:53 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 92):
And yet again, and for the last time - I was not referring only to CONUS-NRT, I was referring to NRT overall.

I went ahead and did it for you.

Capacity into NRT today is most definitely similar to what it was 10 years ago.
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commavia
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:55 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 94):
CONUS - Narita

2001:
JFK daily 744
DTW 11-weekly 744
MSP 9-weekly 742
LAX daily 742
SFO daily 742
SEA daily 742

... and let us not forget the 20x weekly M11s Delta was operating on NRT-ATL/LAX/JFK in 2001. If you want to get a true apples-to-apples, pro forma comparison back to then, you have to include Delta in the '2001' numbers as well.
 
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compensateme
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:00 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 96):
... and let us not forget the 20x weekly M11s Delta was operating on NRT-ATL/LAX/JFK in 2001. If you want to get a true apples-to-apples, pro forma comparison back to then, you have to include Delta in the '2001' numbers as well.

If we're discussing DL's dependence on the Narita hub, how do any of DL's per-merger flights -- especially a pair discontinued for nearly a decade prior to the close of the merger -- have any impact?
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MaverickM11
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:02 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 84):
DL may have decided it is more beneficial to exploit the Narita hub.

It doesn't have a choice. From where else are they going to fly to Asia beyond Japan? ATL hasn't worked outside of NRT, DTW has been hit and miss outside of PVG, CVG/SLC/MEM/MSP? Not going to happen. NW had the real estate in NRT for a solid hub, but not the hubs in the US to overfly Japan; the addition of DL's hubs didn't make it much easier, hence the build up in JFK and SEA.
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codc10
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RE: Delta Suspends DTW-HKG

Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:14 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 94):

It's darn close to being even; let's compare the pre-9/11 schedule (summer 2001) to this summer:

CONUS - Narita

The parity between 2001 and 2012 in terms of frequencies is pretty interesting. The gauge changes, especially in the transpacific/interport sectors, certainly reflect the trend of overflying NRT, which was embraced by UA. NW also historically did brisk business with volume sales to Asian consolidators and travel agents, which was probably why Northwest had 747 service virtually everywhere at that time.

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