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nitepilot79
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:35 pm

There is talk of a new airport to be built between Tarsus and Mersin. A big newspaper dedi 'ki Adana Sakirpasa Havalimani (ADA) would remain open zaten.
 
leftyboarder
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:24 pm

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 50):
There is talk of a new airport to be built between Tarsus and Mersin. A big newspaper dedi 'ki Adana Sakirpasa Havalimani (ADA) would remain open zaten.

Already under construction I think. Here's a link with a low-res visual: http://www.haberfx.net/cukurova-havalimani-2014te-hazir-haberi-432438/
 
ThereandBack
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:15 am

Here are some high quality renders of the new Adana - Mersin airport
http://www.emrearolat.com/2011/01/07/cukurova-regional-airport/

They also want to link it to the train that runs between the two cities so that people can easily access it.
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:21 am

Quoting ThereandBack (Reply 52):

Here are some high quality renders of the new Adana - Mersin airport
http://www.emrearolat.com/2011/01/07/cukurova-regional-airport/

They also want to link it to the train that runs between the two cities so that people can easily access it.

Thanks for posting! Some creative airport architecture by Emre Arolat. Very interesting...

For those guys who would like to dig deeper in this years TK numbers, cargo up 25,3%, RPK (km) up 28,6% for H1. Wow.

See: http://centreforaviation.com/files/a...8225/2012_MONTHLY_TRAFFIC_DATA.pdf

TK787 your commentary is dearly missed, too much work and less Turkish Civil Aviation on A.net is not good for you  

[Edited 2012-07-13 00:29:49]
 
PEET7G
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:11 am

Hi Turkish experts,

I would like to have a question...when making a booking for a flight in J class to HKG, on my return trip (6th Aug.) I can only choose from 2 rows of seats in 1-2-1 configuration on their 77W. I thought TK returned all the first class configured 9W 77Ws so how can this be? Am I wrong and they still utilize First class suit equipped 77ws or is simply this an error on behalf of their reservation system? And why can I only choose from these 2 rows and the herringbone style J class is not shown (not that I am complaining, as I hate that angled configuration)

THX for any info,

PEET7G
Peet7G
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:47 am

Despite some skepticism, the Turkish government has given high priority for the new Istanbul mega-hub and more details are emerging. The next few months will be interesting....

See: http://www.airporthaber.com/havacili...uncu-havalimani-projesi-hazir.html (Turkish)
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting tcm (Reply 55):

Yes. It is telling that the new airport will have 6 runways, 4 of them parallel and 2 are perpendicular to the other 4. But the terminal situation is a bit unclear to me. They are talking about 4 terminals. Sounds strange to me. Isn't one huge terminal more convenient ? There must be plans if they are going to the tender in fall.
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting tcm (Reply 53):
TK787 your commentary is dearly missed, too much work and less Turkish Civil Aviation on A.net is not good for you

Have I been that quiet??
You are correct, very busy and keeps going. I have to get up 4:15am to go work again tomorrow morning. Sleep and work.... but I still take a look at the thread twice a day.

Thanks for the great pics of the Adana airport thereandback, looks airy, modern.
 
bahadir
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:17 am

The new istanbul airport will be a nightmare for the city .. The only green area of the town is being destroyed.. This area is full of forestry and supplies a lot of water to the city.. Welcome to Istanbul where people shower with bottled water. I hate the fact that environment takes a back seat to this administration's greedy construction business..

On a second note THY was supposed to place an order , what happened to it?

Don't even get me started on the THY being Europe's best airline.. I cannot even book tickets on their website.. Europe's best airline? I cannot even board the plane w/out showing my credit card to them.. Or I cannot make changes to the ticket I bought w/out going to the ticket office.. This is the best airline?

Europe's best airline because they serve kofte and patlican ? Hahaha..

Wonder how much they had to bribe Skytrax..
Earthbound misfit I
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting bahadir (Reply 58):
The new istanbul airport will be a nightmare for the city .. The only green area of the town is being destroyed.. This area is full of forestry and supplies a lot of water to the city.. Welcome to Istanbul where people shower with bottled water. I hate the fact that environment takes a back seat to this administration's greedy construction business..

On a second note THY was supposed to place an order , what happened to it?

Don't even get me started on the THY being Europe's best airline.. I cannot even book tickets on their website.. Europe's best airline? I cannot even board the plane w/out showing my credit card to them.. Or I cannot make changes to the ticket I bought w/out going to the ticket office.. This is the best airline?

Europe's best airline because they serve kofte and patlican ? Hahaha..

Wonder how much they had to bribe Skytrax..

It makes me very sad that this is the truth... Unfortunately, Turkey is a country where people pay more attention on the paint than on the fundament...
 
TK739ER
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:26 am

Quoting bahadir (Reply 58):
On a second note THY was supposed to place an order , what happened to it?

I'll believe that only when I see those planes painted in TK's livery.

Quoting bahadir (Reply 58):
Don't even get me started on the THY being Europe's best airline.. I cannot even book tickets on their website.. Europe's best airline? I cannot even board the plane w/out showing my credit card to them.. Or I cannot make changes to the ticket I bought w/out going to the ticket office.. This is the best airline?

Europe's best airline because they serve kofte and patlican ? Hahaha..

Wonder how much they had to bribe Skytrax..

Sad but true...
 
radiopolitic
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:39 am

Quoting bahadir (Reply 58):

+1
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:42 am

Quoting bahadir (Reply 58):

-1  
 
MeCe
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:54 pm

Quoting peet7g (Reply 54):




Yes Tk send first class 777 to home long time ago. There is no cabin config like 1-2-1 now, sorry for that mess...

Quoting bahadir (Reply 58):




Oh my god you must be an "istemezükçü"   

All of chambers like artitechs, green lovers, engineers are against 3rd bridge and 3rd airport location. But everyone who has knowledge becomes against prime minister his ego boosts and eggs another crazy project. Hope at least TK will survive this and its workers be fine.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:04 pm

For those maybe not familiar with the Istanbul region, and would like to visualize the location of the proposed third airport, I ran across this picture.

From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting bahadir (Reply 58):

The new istanbul airport will be a nightmare for the city ..

It is a HUGE economic growth opportunity. If the opportunity isn't taken now, then there might not ever again be such an opportunity to grow.

If the new airport for IST isn't built, we will see the traffic go elsewhere. I assume most here are fans of TK. With the new airport TK will eventually be the dominant hubbing airline of TK, QR, EY, and EK. Without it, one sets the growth conditions necessary for EK and then DWC becomes the dominant airport with EK the dominant airline.

It is rare when there is such an opportunity to choose who is the #1 regional player. I hope TK/IST/Turkey chooses to build the new airport.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:47 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 65):
It is a HUGE economic growth opportunity. If the opportunity isn't taken now, then there might not ever again be such an opportunity to grow.

I am sure that there are other ways to build this airport. Growth is not everything. Everywhere a mega airport can be built, but in the world there is only one Bosphorus.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 65):
If the new airport for IST isn't built, we will see the traffic go elsewhere. I assume most here are fans of TK. With the new airport TK will eventually be the dominant hubbing airline of TK, QR, EY, and EK. Without it, one sets the growth conditions necessary for EK and then DWC becomes the dominant airport with EK the dominant airline.

I believe "just" being a fan of TK shouldn't be a reason to be in favour of this airport. We all want the Turkish economy to grow, we all want TK becoming one of the world's major airlines, we all want Istanbul airport being a world centre of aviation. The central question is "to which cost are we willing to do this?".

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 65):
It is rare when there is such an opportunity to choose who is the #1 regional player. I hope TK/IST/Turkey chooses to build the new airport.

I also want the new airport, but not there, in the last forrest of Istanbul. We are destroying this unique place.
 
bahadir
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:10 am

I am not "istemezukcu" .. I am far from it.. I am all favor of more air transportation , I am a freaking pilot after all, not just a traveler.. But I can see how the areas of green are being destroyed. I am almost 44 years old and I remember when the areas of sky scrapers of Maslak was nothing but greenery.. You can have the green and live in it too, take a look at all the cities in USA , even NYC has more green areas per capita than some areas of Istanbul..

The 3rd airport project is flawed from the beginning.. The location and the section of "New Istanbul" is on the rain receiving forests that fee the soil and supply water to the area. This is being destroyed bit by bit..

If the idea is to produce a nice transfer airport , than you can expand Ankara without being landlocked.

Take a look a the picture that LAXIntl posted.. The 3rd bridge and the connecting highways are going through one of the most dense forests of Istanbul. 20 years from now, none of them will remain. With all the money that they are investing on this 3rd airport , you can buy out the land around LTBA/IST and knock some of the buildings out. The area is already served by major highways and underground..

But no, they have to piss lots of money away to companies like Astaldi (which won the 3rd bridge contract).. If you look at any of the history of contracts that this company won since 1980s in Turkey you will see a lot of fraud and a lot of kickbacks .. None of the "journalists" bring this one because the punishment of criticism of this current administration is jail in Turkey.

I would like to see what kind of environmental studies have been conducted about the new airport. I would like to see the emissions that this will translate. I was in Ankara last April and the city smelled as bad as 30 years ago with pollution. Istanbul isn't far from this in a windless day..

The other thing about this airport is the choice of runways.. Parallel runways to the Black Sea are not feasible. The wind runs strong and on the north/south direction around this area.

For those of you that are asking for "progress" I would like you to see the pictures of Istanbul from 20 years ago and today.The progress should not be in expense of the limited areas of green and clean air..
Earthbound misfit I
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:36 am

Quoting bahadir (Reply 67):
If the idea is to produce a nice transfer airport , than you can expand Ankara without being landlocked.

Yeah but ESB hardly has the local O&D demand for a mega airport. Financially successful hubs still have a high percentage of local demand.

Quoting bahadir (Reply 67):
The other thing about this airport is the choice of runways.. Parallel runways to the Black Sea are not feasible. The wind runs strong and on the north/south direction around this area.

For fun you can check-out historical wind distribution statistics at Gümüşdere beach

http://tr.windfinder.com/windstats/w...tic_gumusdere_plaji_burc_beach.htm

Overall probability is that it will be from NW about 9-months of the year. The other 3 when it would be from the NE, and the cross wind would average about 5kts.

I guess the most ideal would be something like 13-31 runway configuration.

But yes I agree the airport would be effected more by rain (and snow) from the Balkans. Atleast IST and SAW are sheltered a bit, and get the benefit from metropolitan micro climate.

[Edited 2012-07-14 19:39:39]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
TurkishWings
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:15 am

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 51):
Already under construction I think. Here's a link with a low-res visual: http://www.haberfx.net/cukurova-hava...2438/

I just flew ADA-IST on TK last night. The airport was literally in chaos. 1 TK, 1 Onur, 1 Sunexpress and 1 Pegasus leaving at similar times and there was an overflow at the domestic terminal... An expansion or better yet a replacement is badly needed... This new airport looks fantastic indeed and if they manage to get it up and running soon and if the size is right, I think it can easily replace ADA in the next few years. Besides all, ADA is located in the middle of the city which poses a great threat to the locals...

On a personal note, I am sick of commuting to Mersin from ADA many times a year... It's time they commute a little bit too   Great great news for me...
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:46 am

Quoting bahadir (Reply 67):
For those of you that are asking for "progress" I would like you to see the pictures of Istanbul from 20 years ago and today.The progress should not be in expense of the limited areas of green and clean air..

20 years ago Istanbul was a mess with mountains of rubbish in the streets, air full of coal smoke, water cuts and a heaven for illegal (gecekondu) construction. The new airport site is not a green area, look at the map again. When ideology and fiction prevail over facts there is little point for a meaningful discussion.

BTW, ever heard of the Melen Project:

http://www2.dsi.gov.tr/english/region/14st.htm
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:13 am

Quoting tcm (Reply 70):
The new airport site is not a green area, look at the map again.

Ahmmm, what?? As soon as the airport will be built there, roads will come with it. And then residential areas will follow, new suburbs etc. It is the same old story. "This site will opened for construction only little", at the end everything is concrete. This was the case with every party governing.

Quoting tcm (Reply 70):
When ideology and fiction prevail over facts there is little point for a meaningful discussion.

What is that supposed to mean? Do you want to say "if you are against this project you are just against it because you do not like the current government"? What we as normal citizens can think, journalists also can think, but have you read anything about the cons of this project in the newspapers? And this comment:

Quoting bahadir (Reply 67):
None of the "journalists" bring this one because the punishment of criticism of this current administration is jail in Turkey.

is true actually. We should try to see with our own eyes and make our own opinion, and not just believe what others want us to believe (and this applies to all parties!).
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:44 am

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 71):
What is that supposed to mean? Do you want to say "if you are against this project you are just against it because you do not like the current government"? What we as normal citizens can think, journalists also can think, but have you read anything about the cons of this project in the newspapers? And this comment:

Have you seen the actual project?
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:05 pm

Quoting tcm (Reply 72):
Have you seen the actual project?

You mean the 3rd bridge together with connecting roads, the 3rd airport there and the settlement of the north?
The idea itself is so wrong (in my opinion), that the details are irrelevant.

It should also be questioned and investigated who really is making money there and how deciding people are involved in the monetary part of the project.
 
tcm
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:31 pm

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 73):
The idea itself is so wrong (in my opinion), that the details are irrelevant.

I fully respect your opinion. Even more so when politics do not play a role in our discussions. I on the other hand, see a great opportunity in making Istanbul a major aviation hub, building earthquake safe zones for relocation, improve the infrastructure (rail/road/bridge) and create green zones (city forests) around 'old' Istanbul for recreation. I also believe there will be huge economic benefits for 'all' not just the contractors. Therefore I will pass full judgement when I see the details.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 66):
I also want the new airport, but not there, in the last forrest of Istanbul. We are destroying this unique place.

By all means select another viable site. The 'window of opportunity' won't close instantly. I'm not against a reasonable (say 9 month delay to consider alternate sites). But Bulldozers should be going within 30 months. Any longer and opportunity is lost.

Actually, some opportunity is already lost since the new airport will open after the 'new-DOH' and AUH expansion.

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 66):
I am sure that there are other ways to build this airport. Growth is not everything.

Ok. But while growth isn't everything, lack of it is not good. "Transportation is the cornerstone a city builds wealth." Istanbul has an opportunity to build wealth by having better O&D connections via a transfer hub.

Look at what EK and QR have accomplished with their hubs. Thanks to superior O&D traffic, TK could do far more. With a superior hub, they could become the epicenter of Europe/Asia headquarters and turn that to higher paying jobs.

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 66):
We all want the Turkish economy to grow, we all want TK becoming one of the world's major airlines, we all want Istanbul airport being a world centre of aviation.

Excellent. As long as the airport is in a viable location, I'm fine with moving it. But there is a need for a 5 runway airport in the Istanbul region. Where else could it be built?

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
JU068
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:29 pm

If the government is considering this area for a new airport it only goes to prove how little they actually care if the area is green or not. That said, it means that in case the airport project fails, who can guarantee that this area won't be used to build some new neighborhood by the sea or whatever.
This kind of opportunity should not be missed. A few trees should be cut in order to solve once and for all the problem of air traffic in Istanbul.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:37 pm

One needs to remember the location selection of the proposed airport did not come out of nowhere. For almost 2-years eyes were on Silivri on the Marmara Sea coast.

While the government has been holding its cards close to its chest, considering the tender for the airport will be going out this fall, clearly lots of work has taken place behind the scenes these last few years including change of location up to the Black Sea instead.




Oh forgot to add --- once word got out in 2010 that Silivri was in the running for the 3rd airport, property speculators flocked in, which obviously would drive up any eventual price tag to acquire all the land. At least with the revised Black Sea location, the land is less developed, and more of it is already owned by the state.

[Edited 2012-07-15 13:44:38]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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bgm
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:52 am

Turkish Airlines started flights to Edinburgh/EDI today: http://www.flightradar24.com/THY1343

Noticed they are sending TC-JHL on the inaugural flight, nice!  
 
umit
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:29 am

I flew Dalaman -Istanbul by Atlas yesterday . Even though fly was late about an hour and a half it was a nice experience to fly with them (they had to change the plane due to technical reasons) , plane (320) looked reasonable new ,clean , seat pitch was much wider then I thougt. More importantly crew was meticules , they saw that my 11 year old kid was sitting with us on exit row and they removed all of us during the taxi   Another interseting point was we did not circle in the air .. we landed directly on 55 minutes .. Do you think 3 mile separation is the reason for it ?
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting tcm (Reply 74):
create green zones (city forests)

aha.

Quoting tcm (Reply 74):
I also believe there will be huge economic benefits for 'all' not just the contractors.

Yes yes, this is what i wanted to say, hehe.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 75):
By all means select another viable site

Silivri as LAXintl stated in his map.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 75):
Any longer and opportunity is lost.


This airport is being planned for at least (!) five years now. This is nothing instant, that just popped out.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 75):
Istanbul has an opportunity to build wealth by having better O&D connections via a transfer hub


True, but the "value" of a city is not only measured in terms of $$. Green areas, air quality etc also count.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 75):
As long as the airport is in a viable location, I'm fine with moving it. But there is a need for a 5 runway airport in the Istanbul region. Where else could it be built?


In worst case, build it on an artificial island. Has this been forgotten or is it too expensive. I mean flattening of any land costs money.
Quoting ju068 (Reply 76):
That said, it means that in case the airport project fails, who can guarantee that this area won't be used to build some new neighborhood by the sea or whatever.


Very good point. Nobody cares and nobody can guarantee as long as the people don't care. Society is sleeping...
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 80):

This airport is being planned for at least (!) five years now. This is nothing instant, that just popped out.

I've heard shorter timelines. It will be tougher for TK once other airports expand. The one constant, at least, is that the European airports seem to fight expansion no matter what (NIMBYs). But the more established (larger) TK's competitors become relelative to TK, the tougher the competitive environment will be.

This impacts Istanbul as it competes with other cities for headquarters (high paying jobs). Every year headquarters move; one is either ready then to be a possible site for the relocation or not. This is the niche Dubai is trying to fill. I think Istanbul has a better chance. But IST lacks connections to too many destinations that are required to host some business. Thus, expansion is required. Last I looked, IST has 185 connections and DXB has 175 (cities, per Google). So building on top of that would give IST a clear advantage.

The next really fast economic expansion should start in 5 to 8 years if the normal pattern holds (2017 to 2020). Now that means the really fast growth will be 2020 to 2027. How much of that will TK be ready for?

Think of the last economic expansion. 2003 through 2007 were the *really* fast growth years. Those that were ready during those years grew incredibly fast. Those that weren't... didn't. There is no bringing back those years. They are history. But we know there will be new (but different) fast growth years ahead.

And if middle class growth is faster than the historical norm (predicted for the next 10 years), it could shift that fast growth time to 2018 to 2024. So there might not be much time to wait. One is either ready or one isn't.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:53 pm

My concerns are as follows on the new airport;
Most of this is going to sound harsh, but reality I think;

-We all know how things work and don't work in Turkey, I am not going to go into details but it is impossible to compare Turkey with European/Western way of thinking. This is not only true for Turkey but for most 2nd, 3rd world countries.
"Measure twice, cut once" is not how its done in Turkey. "Figure it out as you go along" (hallederiz!) is how things are done.
Istanbul is not known for great parks, eco friendly industries, bike lanes, convenient subway systems, hassle free traffic...
So, if it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. 3 years to complete a terminal in the middle of nowhere with connecting roads, bridges, cargo facilities and convince airlines to fly there????.....a tall order.
-Turkish public has no say in this. The disconnect between the public and the governing group is huge. People have no power on how things get decided. It is futile to compare this with what I see everyday here in NYC. (My apartment building in Manhattan has bunch of retail spaces on premises to rent. As shareholders we get to decide who rents those spaces. No Dunkin Donuts, No 7-11, No McDonalds. My apartment building has more green space/parks/children's play area than my parents immediate area in Kadikoy, Istanbul. Here, it is a privilege to buy a house built in 1850's and renovate it, in Turkey everyone wants a brand new one.) This is just a way of living. Here we decide how we want to live..in Turkey people are told how they will live. Decisions are made without asking, without having a consensus.

I wish they started this new airport project long time ago; like when TK put in their latest big order.

In terms of where this airport will be built..... All l care is I want it to be closer to the city. Where ever it gets build, it used to be green once upon a time and it will turn into a concrete jungle in no time. Turkish people want to live close to the highways, airports and not familiar with the great outdoors. They are not into jogging, mountain biking, kayaking, hiking.

I am all for a brand new airport, or an expanded IST and SAW. Think 2050.
Better highways, tunnels, bridges, public transport systems, subways everywhere.
My hope....a return to importance of creating public spaces, parks, education and arts.
It is OK to let nature go wild....
"Buralari degerlendirmek lazim" will eventually has to stop.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:13 pm

Skytrax's updated their website with the full placement list of carriers.

Besides winning in 3 categories, THY managed the following:

Airline of the Year - #7
Best Economy Cabin - #7
Best Premium Economy Cabin - #2 (Qantas was #1)
Best Business Catering - #4
Best Premium Economy Catering - #4
Best Economy Catering - #2 (Singapore was #1)
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
TurkishWings
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting umit (Reply 79):
Another interseting point was we did not circle in the air .. we landed directly on 55 minutes .. Do you think 3 mile separation is the reason for it ?

Same thing happened to me too.. I flew IST-ADA-IST last weekend and both my flights departed and arrived early... A lot of TK flights have been very much on time lately.. I don't know if you noticed too but they are now using both parallel runways for take offs in IST. I assume that too helps...
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
umit
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:28 pm

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 84):

Yes I did actually .. So if it could have been done why they had not done it for years ? Do you think air controllers quality / ability / willingness to help TK has anything to do it ? Then may be 3rd airport is not as imminent as we are being told ?
 
stylo777
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:52 pm

in fact, the reduced seperation and the more efficient usage of both parallel runways helped a lot in the past weeks to reduce the amount of time spent on the taxiways or in holdings. this is definately an improvement and also felt by all parties involved. however, we didn't have RWY 17 ops in a while. it will be interesting to see how this new procedure will work out then.
I personally remarked something interesting. after applying those new procedures and the reduced seperation level I saw much more go-arounds than before. the good thing is that ATC puts them into the approach sequence right away.
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:15 am

Quoting TK787 (Reply 82):
In terms of where this airport will be built..... All l care is I want it to be closer to the city. Where ever it gets build, it used to be green once upon a time and it will turn into a concrete jungle in no time.

I found this old picture of IST, used to be called "Yesil"koy, I guess you get the point;
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:36 am

Quoting TK787 (Reply 87):

I found this old picture of IST, used to be called "Yesil"koy, I guess you get the point;

Wow, such a nice and interesting picture. Thanks !
 
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fxramper
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:17 pm

UA needs to upgrade the 904/905 to IST. A busted up 763 leaves late and broke down in IST. A two class 764 is a short term solution. I know UA crews do this flight, but a 777 daily could easily be filled. Thoughts?   
 
ASA
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 87):
I found this old picture of IST, used to be called "Yesil"koy, I guess you get the point;

That's a priceless photo, awesome ... thanks, TK787!!

Yes, you made the point. And in all likelihood - wherever the future airport is - development will follow. In fact, the whole "Yenisehir" idea near the airport plans are for a whole new township on the Black Sea coast, right? Doesn't yenisehir mean new town - or similar? Some growth in inevitable - but small coastal resort towns seem to be better choices that massive urban sprawl.

I wonder how places like MUC, CDG and VIE ... keep areas around their airfields so open even decades after the construction. Is it through regulations - or the demand for urbanization is simply not there so far from the city (like DEN)?

Following the thread, it is obvious, that
(1) IST needs to grow / Istanbul needs a massive facility for air travel growth
(2) Environmental concerns are not being met with the northern airport plans

If I put my hydrologist hat on ... I have to side with (2) ... those hills up north are indeed precious catchment areas. Just like the reservoirs on the west side of metro Istanbul - lakes and rivers on the northern side will have a hard time filling up if the catchment areas are lost. From the air, much of Istanbul already looks like a red carpet ... it is critical to conserve the few remaining green spots.

(1) is inevitable. IST has to rise up to the occasion of TK growth, Turkish economic growth, and the opportunity to develop a leading global airline. But it doesn't have to be at critical natural environmental costs. (2) needs to be accommodated as well - there must be an optimal solution. Otherwise the long-term benefits (economic and otherwise) will have been lost.

The earlier proposed location in the Silivri area are not being discussed anymore. Has that plan been shelved - or it the govt not divulging the selected location yet for not initiating price increase. But a citizen debate needs to take place before the selection, right? So are we trying to avoid that in order to fasten the process (ala EK/UAE, QR/DOH, etc)?

Better air traffic management (separation, parallel runway operation, etc) is already yielding benefits. With additional taxiway (and at least one runway) construction, can't IST handle much more traffic than now? Can the same processes be applied at SAW too?

What about expansion of IST into the Marmara ... it will need to destroy the neighborhoods south of the current airport, but that cost seems to be much lower than any of the other options. Can't such an expansion include 1/2 new runways and new terminal space? The airport will look similar to SFO or NCE when completed ... but with much bigger areas I think. Expansion of SAW is of course another option to relieve regional and domestic flights - and the Asian side of the city needs a fast access to regional (and some international) access too.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 87):
I found this old picture of IST, used to be called "Yesil"koy

Thanks for that picture TK787.

For those interested in Yesilkoy history, the airfield opened in 1912 at the behest of the Minister of War. The land was orchards that belonged to an Armenian family. During WW1 the field was home to military flight school, machine shops and a fighter squadron. After the armistice the field was occupied by French and British. Following the Lausanne Treaty the airport was handed back to Turkish Air Force control.

The airports first terminal (more like a shack) was developed on the land of what today is the military section of the airport. The ramp is still there – on the far south east corner of the airport close to the military housing. The first commercial flight at the airport was in 1922 when French airline CFRNA operated a Paris-Istanbul service with stop in Bucharest. However the military at that time did not like their airport being used for such activity, and it was until 1925 that commercial services were resumed.

It was agreed in 1926 that a second airport would be built to the north of the military field, which could be used as a civilian airport. Two hangars, and administration building, fuel tanks and power station were constructed over the next decade. A 20-year contract was signed with a French firm to manage the airport, but by 1937 the contract was cancelled and the government which formed its national airport authority took control of the civilian field.

The first asphalt runway was built in 1942 from expropriated farmland. Following WW2, the US companies Westinghouse Electric and JG White were given a modernization contract of Yesilkoy, Ankara and Adana airports. The posted picture by TK787 shows the modern terminal building which was situated close to where the international terminal gates 224-226 & cargo ramp are today. The US companies built new steel hangars, control tower, support buildings and taxiways in addition to the terminal. The “new” airport was inaugurated in 1953. In 1965 the terminal was expanded with a second building next to it for domestic flights. By the early 1980s' the activity moved to what is currently the domestic terminal, when the German designed jetway terminal opened. And finally by 2000 we have the terminal we know today.

I've spoken to many that were involved in the early days of Turkish aviation, and most would agree that the Yesilkoy area was very very far from Istanbul, and that unless you had business that way, no one would venture past old Byzantine city walls towards the Bakirkoy or Yesilkoy area. Off course keep in mind, Istanbul population in 1950s was not even 1 million.
Fast forward, and today, we know the airport is landlocked in the middle of a major metropolitan area of some 14+ million!

Also for those curious, Istanbul in the early days also had multiple airports, Maletepe which was a military academy and Yedikule a radio communications site.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 89):
Thoughts?  

In the summer I’m sure a 2-class 777 would be doable, however in the winter the 763 is more than adequate.
IST still does not have the premium demand such as European capital cities, while its tourism draw definitely has a strong summer peak.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 90):
I wonder how places like MUC, CDG and VIE ... keep areas around their airfields so open even decades after the construction. Is it through regulations - or the demand for urbanization is simply not there so far from the city (like DEN)?

I don't think anyone of these cities has seen even close the growth in population Istanbul has.

Here are the census figured for Istanbul.

1940 - 793,000
1950 - 983,000
1960 - 1,466,000
1970 - 2,132,000
1980 - 3,772,000
1990 - 7.620,000
2000 - 9,923,0000
2010 - 13,256,000

The place is headed for 20million quickly !
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
leftyboarder
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 90):
I wonder how places like MUC, CDG and VIE ... keep areas around their airfields so open even decades after the construction. Is it through regulations - or the demand for urbanization is simply not there so far from the city (like DEN)?

Both. Of course Turkey is years - even decades - behind in regulations of this kind, but you have to understand that Turkey's population growth and internal migration rates are huge compared to those places. In fact, German population is in decline.

Quoting ASA (Reply 90):
The earlier proposed location in the Silivri area are not being discussed anymore. Has that plan been shelved - or it the govt not divulging the selected location yet for not initiating price increase. But a citizen debate needs to take place before the selection, right? So are we trying to avoid that in order to fasten the process (ala EK/UAE, QR/DOH, etc)?

Although the main objective is to focus on the transit market, a new airport would still have to cater for O&D, and to be honest a Silivri location makes this very difficult for quite a percentage of Istanbul population - Silivri is for example 95 kms from Atasehir, a suburb to the east by no means the easternmost. This is around 65 kms for the selected site. (Please bear in mind that I don't support or oppose the site selection yet).

Quoting ASA (Reply 90):
Better air traffic management (separation, parallel runway operation, etc) is already yielding benefits. With additional taxiway (and at least one runway) construction, can't IST handle much more traffic than now? Can the same processes be applied at SAW too?

It sure can, but for how long? These are band-aid solutions to a chronic issue. Eventually the new barrier will be reached. SAW is not an alternative to IST. You have to see that a two-airport hub would never work for what TK is trying to achieve. Even AF at CDG an ORY or BA at LHR and LGW can't offer hassle-free transfers between airports.

Quoting ASA (Reply 90):
What about expansion of IST into the Marmara ... it will need to destroy the neighborhoods south of the current airport, but that cost seems to be much lower than any of the other options. Can't such an expansion include 1/2 new runways and new terminal space? The airport will look similar to SFO or NCE when completed ... but with much bigger areas I think. Expansion of SAW is of course another option to relieve regional and domestic flights - and the Asian side of the city needs a fast access to regional (and some international) access too.

The cost of such an expansion would exceed that of a new airport. A southbound expansion is not enough; they would have to expand to the east as well to build another parallel runway.

If you ask me - though I am no expert of course - the military site here is a much better option. Closer to the city, empty, with freeways passing next to it:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=41.098887,28.842201&spn=0.096761,0.256119&t=h&z=13
 
NuD38
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 91):
For those interested in Yesilkoy history

It is unacceptable to talk about Yesilkoy history without mentioning Nuri Demirag. He did build the first fully Turkish licensed airplanes. The factory (Tayyare Etüd Atölyesi) was located in Besiktas, which serves as a naval museum today. The NuD38 had 2 engines and 6 passenger capacity.

Here is a picture:

Nud38


After this small introduction to Nuri Demirag and NuD38 the main reason I am offended is not mentioning Elmas Pasa Ciftligi which is the name of the area that Ataturk Airport is situated today. Nuri Demirag is the person who bought this land to built an airport. He was using this airport for his very own flight school (Gok Okul).

Planes he built lined up at Yesilkoy:


Gosteri


Audience visiting the show:

Audience


And Gok Okul (flight academy) students with him. Yes, third person from the left is Erdal Inonu!

Galip Demira


I hope in future references his name will show up. It is not fair to skip such an important figure and his contributions.

My   
 
NuD38
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:41 pm

Sorry, Erdal Inonu is the third person from the right side.   

From left to right:

Galip Demirag (Nuri Demirag's son), Omer İnonu, Nuri Demirag, Erdal Inonu, Mehmet Kum (Nuri Demirag's son-in-law).
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:25 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 94):
Quoting NuD38 (Reply 95):

Thanks for all the great info and the photos.
 
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fxramper
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:08 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 91):
In the summer I’m sure a 2-class 777 would be doable, however in the winter the 763 is more than adequate.
IST still does not have the premium demand such as European capital cities, while its tourism draw definitely has a strong summer peak.

I disagree.

Those that want to fawn over pictures of TK flights they've never take are always welcome on this forum. I've flown the UA flight more than once and passengers would support a 777 year around on UA vs. a FRA connection.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:19 pm

   

The UA flight has only operated for 2 weeks.

I'm glad you are so optimistic, however from someone that has been involved behind the scenes, the revenue modeling does not support such large capacity year round. THY itself loses money on the North Atlantic for a significant portion of the year.

I think a good litmus test is the DL experience the last 20-years. Summers daily nonstop is no problem, but off season during the long slow winters is the problem where demand from both ends drops significantly, and you get tons of junk $600r/t fares to IST from the East Coast and Midwest.

For UA specifically also there is the issue of the LH JV, where many cities are better served over Germany than via EWR onto the IST flight.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
tk1244
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RE: Turkish Aviation July 2012

Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:26 am

Quoting NuD38 (Reply 95):

I hope in future references his name will show up. It is not fair to skip such an important figure and his contributions.

Wasn't it the Turkish government who blocked his expansion and later closed his aircraft manufacturing plants?  
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