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Flighty
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:11 am

Quoting darreno1 (Reply 41):

When I step on an Aircraft, I like to see some gray on my captain or least an older person in the left seat. I have flown with younger pilots but don't feel as safe. And yes I know they have to start at some point but experience DOES matter. I'm not saying it's the cause of this crash but it's a factor that cannot be ignored. Colgan Air 3407 comes to mind. That CVR transcript was pretty disturbing.

An older pilot has lived through some interesting mistakes and knows his weaknesses.

That doesn't mean any judgement of the people involved in this tragic accident. RIP
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:28 am

Quoting Gulfstream650 (Reply 49):
I simply didn't realise that people as young as their early 20s are getting to fly in the left or right seats in planes such as a GIV or bigger.


The world is crying out for more pilots, this means that pilots who are suitably qualified are snapped up into positions much earlier than most used to be.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
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barney captain
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:38 am

Quoting darreno1 (Reply 41):
When I step on an Aircraft, I like to see some gray on my captain or least an older person in the left seat. I have flown with younger pilots but don't feel as safe. And yes I know they have to start at some point but experience DOES matter. I'm not saying it's the cause of this crash but it's a factor that cannot be ignored. Colgan Air 3407 comes to mind. That CVR transcript was pretty disturbing.

I can assure you that age does NOT equal experience. I was a Captain at Skywest at 25 years of age = 4000 hours. Captain at Southwest at 30 = 8000 hours - all but the first 1500 in Transport Category aircraft. I frequently flew with First Officers that were much older than I, fresh out of the military, with @ 3000 hours - none in a passenger carrying aircraft. Should I have switched seats? 20,000 hours and still no grey - hopefully you would trust me  

Age does NOT necessarily = experience.

But I digress.

My SINCERE condolences to those affected by this - a horrible tragedy.  
Southeast Of Disorder
 
RickNRoll
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:09 am

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 36):
Journalism schools should make it MANDATORY that all students take 'AVIATION 101.'

There is no other category that media hacks botch more than aviation.

No, they get every category of hi-tech equally wrong. You only tend to notice it in the areas you have expertise in. The thing that worries me is that their political and current affairs reporting is equally incompetent.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:50 am

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 53):
The thing that worries me is that their political and current affairs reporting is equally incompetent.

Well, when it comes to THAT category, it's all pure 'editorializing' rather than 'reporting' anyway. And when they take their 'reporting' hat off and put their 'editorializing' hat on, they take great offense that anyone notices.
 
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saleya22r
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:39 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 37):

I was in Nice that Friday afternoon. Weather was CAVOK and very hot all over the coast but the wind was very strong must have been well over 40 kts in gusts. Beaches were closed. My immediate thought was that this sad accident was weather-related as the wind at least in Nice was blowing from SW, a very unfavorable direction for the shortish RWY 13/31 at Castellet. The distance from Nice is 120 km so I can't be sure the wind was the same there though. I was trying to figure out what the max allowed crosswind component would be for the Gulfstream, found out somewhere 24 kts. Correct me if I'm wrong. Are crosswind landings in general tricky with the Gulfsream? Does the wingspan play any role?
 
smittyone
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:03 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 34):
I'd take a fifty year old geezer like myself with 35,000 hours in type before I'd subscribe to 22 year old with 3,000 in type. I'm not talking "sims" here either.


Me too, but we're talking about First Officers here...the road to "35,000 hours in type" has to start somewhere...and IMO the earlier the better.

[Edited 2012-07-15 06:04:57]
 
soon7x7
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 38):


Agreed...good and bad at any age but when a crew member that is confronted by a real emergency, I'm going with the grey...up in the mind of a well seasoned pilots head is a fountain of experience and information that will come to the table when the demand gets played out.
USAirways 1549 comes to mind. "Captain Sully" recognized he was literally surrounded by a minimum of (5) airfields, but even at 3200 ft agl he could not return to any one of them. Had the crew of N601US been new to the type, lets say...just out of CRJ's with relatively low time...I'd bet $$$, the outcome would have been a huge mess...Most are aware of the incredibly high density of the population in that area. As far as twenty something year olds flying G-lV's?. I have been in corporate aviation for 25 years and have never seen 20 something crew members. The Gulfstream is a handful of power and is extremely complicated. Not saying it can't be done...but it shouldn't.

Quoting Saleya22R (Reply 55):
Are crosswind landings in general tricky with the Gulfstream? Does the wingspan play any role?


On later versions, the 550/650 wingspan could be a factor in extreme conditions but they land at TEB all the time with X winds, even tail winds. That's just TEB.

Quoting Gulfstream650 (Reply 49):
I simply didn't realise that people as young as their early 20s are getting to fly in the left or right seats in planes such as a GIV or bigger.


Typically they don't...when you start corporate you usually start in King Airs, Beech jets, Hawkers....that sort of ship. The Globals and Gulfstreams are the types you reach for but requires time and experience. No owner or Charter group worth their salt would turn over the type to such young crew member unless they had unusual experience that would have given them the credentials to fly type. Personally I have never seen it. I Know back in WW ll you had 20 year olds flying Liberators, B-17's, P-51's...but that is war time. In the world of corporate, everything is different.

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 36):
Journalism schools should make it MANDATORY that all students take 'AVIATION 101.'


NO!...Please No....I'm an aviation photojournalist and have covered many incidents, accidents and special events....While working on these assignments, their ignorance is priceless. The entertainment value while on location is also priceless and helps to take the sting out of bad accident coverage. I'm happy they are clue less just as I would be clueless covering a murder. If they were smarter than A/netters, it would be a dangerous world!

Quoting av757 (Reply 28):


Sorry, Don't mean any disrespect but I couldn't help myself...
Avianca, Cove Neck, L.I.
 
darreno1
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 46):
Crashes and incidents happen due to a number of issues and factors and I am pretty sure in the commercial world, age has never been cited as a reason for a plane crashing. Frankly I have seen 60 year olds driving cars and their reaction time isn't the best, so all the comments about old grey pilots are better, is nonsense and irrelevant to this or any crash for that matter!

Not age but experience. As a passenger, all I have to judge experience is outer appearance (which I'll admit, isn't the most accurate indicator) as I'm not one to approach a pilot with what I would consider a rather inappropriate question.

I agree, what happened over the everglades was a serious blunder but it was dark and the decent was so gradual it was not perceived by the crew. Plus the flight engineer was not around and the avionics of the time was a far cry from what we have today. But yes, your point being even experienced pilots (Captain had 30000 hours) can have accidents is taken. However, IMO, that's not the norm.

And just to touch on your driving example. Yes the older you get the less your reaction time but teens are still the highest risk group and most likely to get into an accident per mile driven.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 52):
Age does NOT necessarily = experience.

Agreed, but for me as a passenger, it's a reliable enough indicator.
Nikon D7000 / Nikkor 105mm AF f2.8 / Nikkor 35 f1.8G / Nikkor 50 f1.8D / Nikkor 85mm / Nikkor 300mm f4 AF
 
Beeski
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:59 pm

Dale Popik, a 60-year-old from Delray Beach, was the pilot of the Gulfstream G-IV that crashed while landing in Le Castellet, France, on Friday.

And 24-year-old Robert Helton, of Pembroke Pines, was the second man who died in the plane crash.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/1...story_link=email_msg#storylink=cpy

My friend was not on this plane.
RIP Dale, Robert and Gwen.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting Saleya22R (Reply 55):
I was in Nice that Friday afternoon. Weather was CAVOK and very hot all over the coast but the wind was very strong must have been well over 40 kts in gusts. Beaches were closed. My immediate thought was that this sad accident was weather-related as the wind at least in Nice was blowing from SW, a very unfavorable direction for the shortish RWY 13/31 at Castellet. The distance from Nice is 120 km so I can't be sure the wind was the same there though. I was trying to figure out what the max allowed crosswind component would be for the Gulfstream, found out somewhere 24 kts. Correct me if I'm wrong. Are crosswind landings in general tricky with the Gulfsream? Does the wingspan play any role?

The configuration of LFMQ (Le Castellet) is very particular. I landed a few times there with Cessna 172, 182 and a PA28 and the winds can be very disturbing ...
The airfield is located at the altitude of 1200ft, and is exposed to strong winds (the famous "Mistral").
In case of strong winds from NW there is a high risk of severe turbulences on final approach. By sea breeze (wind from SSW) and in case of uncertainly about wind direction indication, the use of RWY 13 is recommended.
 
affirmative
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:34 pm

I landed in Toulon Hyeres (LFTH) just 30 or so minutes before this accident happened. The winds were quite frisky from about W and at approximately 20-25 knots gusting to maybe 30-35. We landed on RWY 23 with very little crosswind from the right. If they landed on 13 they would've had a massive tailwind factor, probably in the order of 15kt with gusts higher than that quartering at 40-45 deg on the tail. Tower should've been open according to the info (07.00-10.00, 11.00-16.00). Really wondering why they determined that RWY 13 would be the best option. 31 is the only one with a published instrument approach while 13 is circling only. I'm really puzzled by this..

Tragic accident of one of my favorite aircraft..
I love the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning...
 
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Aesma
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:54 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 34):
I'd take a fifty year old geezer like myself with 35,000 hours in type before I'd subscribe to 22 year old with 3,000 in type. I'm not talking "sims" here either.

And you started accumulating those 35000 hours the day of your 50th birthday ?

Quoting Gulfstream650 (Reply 49):
I simply didn't realise that people as young as their early 20s are getting to fly in the left or right seats in planes such as a GIV or bigger.

Well, the GIV is a big bizjet, but it's the same size as a 50 seats regional jet on which many young airline pilots start their career on.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
gulfstream650
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 62):

Of course, but generally speaking commercial passengers have no say over airline flight crew recruiting. If you own a plane you do!

Of course many of them are chartered which to some extent negates the above but there surely are charter customers who are picky about who flies them.
I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe
 
maxpower1954
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 62):
I'd take a fifty year old geezer like myself with 35,000 hours in type before I'd subscribe to 22 year old with 3,000 in type. I'm not talking "sims" here either.

If you can produce proof of anyone with 35,000 in type of anything I'd like to see it. Unless you meant total time, but the average airline type retires with 30,000 or less.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:06 am

I can't imagine having 35,000 hours in anything! If you averaged 1000 hours a year, that would be 35 years! And ... 1000 a year in airline flying is tough .. even tougher in corporate or military flying!

So, what aircraft have been around 35 years? DC-9, B737, Lear?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
26point2
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:25 am

Amelia Reid from KRHV had 55,000 hours mostly as an instructor in Luscombe, Citabria and C 150 types. Amelia was my flight instructor in the 80s. Not relevant to this topic perhaps but an example of very high flying time in type.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_Reid
 
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longhauler
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:53 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 66):
Amelia Reid from KRHV had 55,000 hours mostly as an instructor in Luscombe, Citabria and C 150 types. Amelia was my flight instructor in the 80s. Not relevant to this topic perhaps but an example of very high flying time in type.

She sounds like Marion Orr.

A Canadian aviation pioneer, and one of my early instructors:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Orr

I wonder with today's duty restrictions if anyone could amass 55,000 hours flying time within one aviation lifetime.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
maxpower1954
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RE: Private Jet Aircraft Has Crashed At Le Castellet.

Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 65):
So, what aircraft have been around 35 years? DC-9, B737, Lear?

I met a retired Frontier (original) captain at a QB meeting years ago who claimed to be the highest time DC-3 pilot - 22,000 in type. And I seemed to remember the late Harvey Hop of Hop-a-jet fame had over 15,000 in Lears.

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