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Gonzalo
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Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:32 pm

According to one of the heads of PU unions, Mr. Nicolas de los Santos, the interest in Pluna is from Brazilian investors, a Spanish Trust Fund, and LAN ( now LATAM ). He said that LAN executives are talking with the union and the Uruguayan authorities.... but I found odd that LAN can make that moves now.....

http://www.elpais.com.uy/120717/ultm...cercaron-propuesta-a-trabajadores/

Anyone with some more trust-able information ??

Rgds.
G.
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SCL767
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:39 pm

Many ex-Pluna pilots are very interested in becoming pilots for LAN...
 
eastern023
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:06 pm

I guess better LAN than AviancaTaca right?
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SCL767
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting eastern023 (Reply 2):
I guess better LAN than AviancaTaca right?

Other carriers are quickly filling the void left by PU. G3 will launch GRU-MVD next month, AR/AU will increase frequency and capacity on the AEP-MVD and EZE-MVD routes and Sol del Paraguay plans on launching ASU-MVD, etc. Also, LAN may increase flights into MVD from SCL and TAM may increase flights into MVD from GRU and may also launch GIG-MVD.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:20 pm

I'm sorry to say this but I really don't see anyone being interested in the MVD hub as it doesn't really add anything to any of the big carrier's networks that can't or isn't served through their current hubs and their current equipment. Pluna was highly unprofitable and frankly with Argentina keeping their skies tight as possible, I don't see room for a niche carrier to emerge form the ashes and magically get the authorization to connect secondary argentinian cities and Buenos Aires with Brazil's population centres.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 1):
Many ex-Pluna pilots are very interested in becoming pilots for LAN...

I think that might be the reason behind this statement...the union is trying to keep the pilots in Uruguay in order not to loose members.
 
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:28 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
He said that LAN executives are talking with the union and the Uruguayan authorities.... but I found odd that LAN can make that moves now.....

....and MX and F9 and JM and.... 
Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 4):
I'm sorry to say this but I really don't see anyone being interested in the MVD hub as it doesn't really add anything to any of the big carrier's networks that can't or isn't served through their current hubs and their current equipment

  
I don't take responsibility at all
 
SCL767
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 4):
I think that might be the reason behind this statement...the union is trying to keep the pilots in Uruguay in order not to loose members.

However, the union recognizes that hundreds of their members are now unemployed and can't rely on the union to pay their bills. Also, it is not mandatory for the pilots to stay in the union. Besides, other carriers are filling the void left by PU, which makes it extremely unlikely that PU will be "reborn".
 
757gb
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:44 pm

What has happened with Pluna is a disgrace and by now I doubt anyone would be seriously interested. First of all, Pluna cannot be reborn as such, since the whole idea behind shutting down the airline within 3 days was to avoid several lawsuits against it. The government's plan was initially to auction 7 CRJ-900 aircraft with a base of 135 million USD. Pretty soon it became apparent that no one would pay that money, so now they are anticipating a second back up auction, topping at 135 million and coming down (they come down gradually and whoever offers first gets the airplanes). The conditions are confusing though. Depending on how the process takes place the buyer might get some of the routes, and there is a lot of pressure to maintain the jobs as well (which will not be possible if the airline goes from 13 aircraft to the proposed 7).

The other thing is that the government will still own part of the airline in some scenarios, but nobody knows how much and how it is all going to work. As SCL767 pointed out, other carriers are quickly filling the void. On the other hand, Juan Carlos Lopez Mena, owner of BQB and who was thought to be the main hope to take over the airline has now stated that he is not interested: the planes are too expensive and he prefers to grow his airline gradually to make sure he can keep the company profitable.
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Gonzalo
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 3):
Also, LAN may increase flights into MVD from SCL and TAM may increase flights into MVD from GRU and may also launch GIG-MVD.
Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 4):
Pluna was highly unprofitable and frankly with Argentina keeping their skies tight as possible, I don't see room for a niche carrier to emerge form the ashes and magically get the authorization to connect secondary argentinian cities and Buenos Aires with Brazil's population centres.
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6):
Besides, other carriers are filling the void left by PU, which makes it extremely unlikely that PU will be "reborn".

I agree with all of you. Personally I think LAN ( or LATAM ) doesn't want to touch Pluna with a ten foot pole, simply it doesn't make sense. Probably this is the best explanation :

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 4):
...the union is trying to keep the pilots in Uruguay in order not to loose members.

The sad part of this is, many people from Uruguay ( in fact, the 99 % of the population who are not reading and learning about aviation daily ), are very excited with the "news ". In fact I had a phone call from a family member who lives in MVD, telling me that "LAN will buy Pluna and form LAN Uruguay", and after my laughs I had the painful mission of turning his excitement into a big disappointment....

Rgds.

G.

[Edited 2012-07-17 14:56:03]
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757gb
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 8):
The sad part of this is, many people from Uruguay ( in fact, the 99 % of the population who are not reading and learning about aviation daily ), are very excited with the "news ".

You made a very important point: the lack of interest and information (particularly for a company in which taxpayers are losing money on) has been a huge factor, allowing LeadGate to get away with murder because few people took the time to examine what was going on, all wanted to cheer the good news about new routes and airplanes (way too many to sustain) and the politicians were covering their tails for the mess. Even now the parliament did not approve of a political investigation of this mess...
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:53 pm

According to news sources, AR will increase frequencies from 18 to 43 in the air bridge AEP-MVD, and add some more freqs in the EZE-MVD too. With this shameful overtaking of the Uruguayan sky from AeroKámpora ( AR ), the chances of any serious airline ( like LA ) to make investments in the airline sector of the country are from now a round ZERO.
I will personally send a claim to LATAM management if I only hear about doing business with the current Uruguayan authorities !!!

Rgds.

G.
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PDPsol
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:26 pm

Gonzalo, you appear to be conflating two separate issues here:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 10):
AR will increase frequencies from 18 to 43 in the air bridge AEP-MVD, and add some more freqs in the EZE-MVD too.

The increase in frequencies between AEP, EZE and MVD is due to an immediate need to replace trans-Plata capacity lost following the PU bankruptcy announcement and operational cessation. This increase was requested by Mujica administration. It is a separate issue from:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 10):
With this shameful overtaking of the Uruguayan sky from AeroKámpora ( AR ), the chances of any serious airline ( like LA ) to make investments in the airline sector of the country are from now a round ZERO.

Any investor in the Uruguayan commercial aviation sector is fully aware that the fate of any prospective investment is HIGHLY dependent on direction and strength of political winds in Buenos Aires. Everyone is completely aware that the success or failure to sell PUs operations and assets in bankruptcy depends on the Kirchner administration.

PU was ALWAYS dependent on the Argentine political environment, relying on the market for traffic to fill its planes to Brasil. Any effort to sell what little remains of PU is subject to a favorable Argentine response.

Under the current bilateral agreement, flag carriers are, I believe, allowed 40 frequencies each. Should anyone be willing to invest resources in PU and its operations, these frequencies could be activated.

Of course, with each passing day, the probability of any investment lessens and lessens...

Should any strategic regional investor, such as Synergy/AV or LATAM/JJ, consider investing, it would require extensive negotiations with and approval from the Kirchner administration. No one would invest without receiving such an authorization.
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 11):
Any investor in the Uruguayan commercial aviation sector is fully aware that the fate of any prospective investment is HIGHLY dependent on direction and strength of political winds in Buenos Aires. Everyone is completely aware that the success or failure to sell PUs operations and assets in bankruptcy depends on the Kirchner administration.

PU was ALWAYS dependent on the Argentine political environment, relying on the market for traffic to fill its planes to Brasil. Any effort to sell what little remains of PU is subject to a favorable Argentine response.

Under the current bilateral agreement, flag carriers are, I believe, allowed 40 frequencies each. Should anyone be willing to invest resources in PU and its operations, these frequencies could be activated.

Of course, with each passing day, the probability of any investment lessens and lessens...

Should any strategic regional investor, such as Synergy/AV or LATAM/JJ, consider investing, it would require extensive negotiations with and approval from the Kirchner administration. No one would invest without receiving such an authorization.

And that is precisely a very, very shameful situation. Uruguay is a sovereign country, and by no means should tolerate a situation where a foreign administration could affect the highest interest of the country, like the air transport rights of its citizens.
The very same PU never had a real chance of success precisely because the lack of dignity from the Uruguayan authorities at the time of demand a fair and balanced treat for the airlines with Argentina, they allowed a permanent and systematic destruction of the airline just to benefit some Argentinian investors and now AR.
The Uruguayan government should announce a date as limit to the AR presence in the market, and then make a new distribution of the routes and slots, giving to new investors warranties about a fair competition against AR, specially considering that AR is heavily supported by the tax payers, at a rate of 2,2 million dollars every day.
Without this warranties, despite how anxious can the ex PU workers be, no one with a good mental health will invest one single dollar in the Uruguayan air sector.

Rgds.
G.
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757gb
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:32 pm

I think both of you (Gonzalo & PDPsol) have brought up something that some people are only now beginning to grasp (I'm not talking about possible investors, but people in general). Trying not to get into politics here but the fact is that the government of Argentina is almost condemning to failure any possible investment before it even materializes. The UY government has been so reluctant to raise its voice on so many issues dealing with the K administration, mainly because of ideological affinity. We've been stepped on over and over on so many things during the last few years. From the moment that both BQB tried to get more services to fill the void right after Pluna's demise, those frequencies were not authorized by Argentina. Of course AR could increase frequencies at will. That already points to what's coming, and IMO explains in part the apparent change of heart for BQB's owner regarding the possibility of investing in this mess.
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
PDPsol
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 12):
And that is precisely a very, very shameful situation. Uruguay is a sovereign country, and by no means should tolerate a situation where a foreign administration could affect the highest interest of the country, like the air transport rights of its citizens.
Quoting 757gb (Reply 13):
From the moment that both BQB tried to get more services to fill the void right after Pluna's demise, those frequencies were not authorized by Argentina. Of course AR could increase frequencies at will.

Let's admit the reality of the PU business model, or ANY commercial aviation enterprise hoping to develop MVD as a regional hub: Uruguay itself is a tiny, yet attractive, market of only 3.5MM people. Assuming approximately 20% of the UY population travels anywhere annually and adding business and leisure traffic gets around 2MM pax maximum. These are very small traffic volumes. The business only works with MVD as a connection hub, specifically connecting the Argentine market with Brasil and the Brasilian market with Argentina.

This is a completely different "ball game". The business model requires access to Argentine airports and authorization for access to those airports. Guess what? Argentina is not an open economy, surprise! The business is completely dependent on political whims and winds in Buenos Aires.

That is the reality and everyone knows it.

The PU business strategy, with high frequencies and access to a broad range of markets in Brasil such as CNF, BSB, POA, etc. etc. is not a bad one. However, the business cannot realize economies of scale and generate material returns to investors WITHOUT access to the Argentine market.

PU was playing a "waiting game", unfortunately, the music stopped and all the chairs were occupied.
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:38 pm

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 14):
Let's admit the reality of the PU business model, or ANY commercial aviation enterprise hoping to develop MVD as a regional hub: Uruguay itself is a tiny, yet attractive, market of only 3.5MM people. Assuming approximately 20% of the UY population travels anywhere annually and adding business and leisure traffic gets around 2MM pax maximum. These are very small traffic volumes. The business only works with MVD as a connection hub, specifically connecting the Argentine market with Brasil and the Brasilian market with Argentina.This is a completely different "ball game". The business model requires access to Argentine airports and authorization for access to those airports. Guess what? Argentina is not an open economy, surprise! The business is completely dependent on political whims and winds in Buenos Aires.That is the reality and everyone knows it.The PU business strategy, with high frequencies and access to a broad range of markets in Brasil such as CNF, BSB, POA, etc. etc. is not a bad one. However, the business cannot realize economies of scale and generate material returns to investors WITHOUT access to the Argentine market.PU was playing a "waiting game", unfortunately, the music stopped and all the chairs were occupied.

Your analysis is flawless. All I'm saying is, for the good of the future sovereignty of the country and the independence of the air industry in the country, the government of Uruguay should clearly establish a deadline for this AR frequencies, besides saying out loud that there are some warranties for the interested in the business against the totally unreliable actions from the Argentinian authorities. Other way, no one will think in this business. Uruguayan authorities needs to grow up and put some mirror measures to all the abuses that this annoying neighbour takes against them, and concentrate its energy in a model of open trade like Chile, Peru, Colombia and Panama are using today, but I guess that is for a Non Av new thread.

Rgds.

G.
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757gb
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 14):

I agree with most of your post. When I worked in Pluna it was abundantly clear that 70 to 80% of our passengers were not from Uruguay. Any project without proper access to Argentinian airports is dead on arrival. Having said that, the Campiani gang lied about their numbers since the beginning, selling off everything they could (including the spare engines) and painting as rosy an outlook as they could. Pluna should have not gone beyond those first 7 airplanes, not for a while. But they kept announcing more airplanes, routes and frequencies like there was no tomorrow, and they knew that the traffic was not there and they could not sustain it. I did some research years ago and actually published some information on public forums, putting together pieces of information isolated from each other initially. As it appeared to me, the state had blown away close to 80 million dollars during the first few years (which was 7 or 8 times what they admitted). Looking at it today my numbers might have been conservative. LeadGate took advantage of the fact that the politicians were up to their neck in the mess and nobody wanted the numbers to be public so they wouldn't have to take responsibility. The same game they are playing today, denying permission for a full investigation of what happened. Even some "admissions" of responsibility published today are full of arrogance and don't truly admit to anything.

So I can agree that the business model could make theoretical sense, but it wasn't simply a problem of not obtaining the necessary authorizations. That became a handy scapegoat with time, but the whole thing reeked of corruption IMHO.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 15):
Uruguayan authorities needs to grow up and put some mirror measures to all the abuses that this annoying neighbour takes against them, and concentrate its energy in a model of open trade like Chile, Peru, Colombia and Panama are using today, but I guess that is for a Non Av new thread.

   I won't expand on that precisely because it would turn political, but I fully agree.

Regards,
GB
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PDPsol
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting 757gb (Reply 16):
LeadGate took advantage of the fact that the politicians were up to their neck in the mess and nobody wanted the numbers to be public so they wouldn't have to take responsibility. The same game they are playing today, denying permission for a full investigation of what happened. Even some "admissions" of responsibility published today are full of arrogance and don't truly admit to anything.

GB, you may remember I wrote a post a few weeks ago about the "call option" strategy that was adopted by LeadGate to bolster their returns via the public purse. This strategy is very, very common among equity investors that use the government to guarantee the obligations of companies they control. This is also known as the "moral hazard" that is plaguing our US economy and the entire EU.

The Republica O. del Uruguay government provided state guarantees for PU to acquire its first batch of 7 CRJ 900NG from Bombardier, around USD 300 million. Governments provide loan guarantees all the time, in Brasil, in the US, in the EU, in Japan, etc. etc. on a massive scale. In fact, most of the USD 10 trillion mortgage MBS market in the US has government guarantees, via bonds issued by entities such as FreddieMac and FannieMae.

LeadGate simply extended this concept to PU. Its equity investment was, essentially, a deep out-of-the-money call option on the value of the enterprise. A call option is worth more with greater volatility and greater time to expiration. They played a waiting game, hoping to one day cash in big on their call option. If PU had managed to survive and generate operational cash flows and realize its strategy linking markets in Argentina and Brasil, LeadGate's very small, nominal equity investment would have zoomed in value and PU's obligations would have been refinanced or paid off.

Of course, the bet did not pay off. LeadGate used public resources [a government guarantee] to finance a business strategy that depended on Argentine political whims. I do not believe that sound like a good use of Uruguay's very limited resources.
 
757gb
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 17):

I do remember your post and sure appreciated the information. It gave me a perspective I am not normally familiar with. Thank you for re explaining the concepts here. Obviously you have a lot more knowledge in this area than I could hope to have.

Unfortunately as the days go by (the auction is estimated to happen in 60 days) the situation seems more and more complicated. Now we're hearing the first rumbles from government party sources saying that a fully state-owned airline would not be entirely off the table (it really depends on who you listen to). I really don't see that happening but it gives you an idea of what the outlook is from there.

Might be a wild guess on my part, but I see BQB entering a cautious growth strategy, possibly anticipating the failure of the creation of a new airline, betting on the routes eventually becoming available as they are a Uruguayan carrier (which is actually within the conditions as they were written for the auction, though that might have changed). OTOH the "we are not interested" statements might be posturing trying to strengthen their negotiating position with the government.
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
SCL767
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:53 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 8):
Personally I think LAN ( or LATAM ) doesn't want to touch Pluna with a ten foot pole, simply it doesn't make sense.

Indeed, it does not make sense since PU routed passengers traveling between both SCL and BUE and Brazil via MVD. Also, LATAM already operates 4 daily flights into MVD and can increase frequency and launch new routes into MVD from their respective hubs. TAM Airlines' subsidiary TAM Paraguay has indicated that it is interested in opening a new non-stop route from ASU to MVD:

Quote:
La solicitud de TAM ya fue presentada días atrás, sostuvo el administrador de la Dirección Nacional de Aviación Civil, Dinac, Rubén Aguilar. Así también queda descartada la posibilidad que Sol del Paraguay vuele en la ruta aérea que en su momento fue de la compañía Pluna.
Tam Airlines inicia gestión para volar a Montevideo
 
CamiloA380
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 1):
Many ex-Pluna pilots are very interested in becoming pilots for LAN...

Yeah, LAN, Copa and BQB are recruiting a lot of ex Pluna pilots. This is actually a great thing - it means that pilots are needed in South America.

Quoting eastern023 (Reply 2):
I guess better LAN than AviancaTaca right?

Well, I don't see what Pluna would cover for LATAM. But for AviancaTaca I'd say quite something.
But Pluna is history today and I'm replying to this thread late as I'm busy these days. 
Quoting PDPsol (Reply 11):
PU was ALWAYS dependent on the Argentine political environment, relying on the market for traffic to fill its planes to Brasil. Any effort to sell what little remains of PU is subject to a favorable Argentine response.
Quoting PDPsol (Reply 14):
Let's admit the reality of the PU business model, or ANY commercial aviation enterprise hoping to develop MVD as a regional hub: Uruguay itself is a tiny, yet attractive, market of only 3.5MM people. Assuming approximately 20% of the UY population travels anywhere annually and adding business and leisure traffic gets around 2MM pax maximum. These are very small traffic volumes. The business only works with MVD as a connection hub, specifically connecting the Argentine market with Brasil and the Brasilian market with Argentina.

This is a completely different "ball game". The business model requires access to Argentine airports and authorization for access to those airports. Guess what? Argentina is not an open economy, surprise! The business is completely dependent on political whims and winds in Buenos Aires.

Exactly!

With a hub in MVD, it makes the airline extremely dependent of our neighbours, especially since Uruguay isn't a big country. The same thing goes for politics, if the economy in Argentina falls, we fall, as we were shown in 2002.

Quoting 757gb (Reply 16):
the traffic was not there and they could not sustain it

Well, the hub was working, I think that's pretty clear since the numbers of passengers increased ( Yes some routes where reduced in frequencies and some closed like ROS). That is the real chaos in MVD today, companies have established shops in the airport which of course, depends on the traffic going through MVD. Some people have lost their job at the airport because of the lack of this traffic flow.

Regards.
Flying4Ever!
 
SCL767
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:44 pm

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 20):
But for AviancaTaca I'd say quite something.

What would PU add to AviancaTaca?
 
PlunaCRJ
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:35 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):
What would PU add to AviancaTaca?

A presence in the intra-southern cone market. A market where competition is decreasing. An operation out of MVD that could, probably, complement that of Avianca Brasil quite well.

Now, what would PU add to LATAM? Not much, I´d say: an even tighter grip on the market (at this point quite unnecessary for them); which in addition would probably make a lot of people quite uncomfortable.

I can´t see how any anti-trust enforcement agency could approve an additional purchase of LATAM inside the southern cone. But then, LATAM happened... so who knows....


Look, I admire LAN. I think they are great. They are a fine airline, and they are pleasing to fly with. But we need more competition here, not less. I´ve said this many times.

Currently there are no non-stop flights MVD-ASU, and the (cumbersome) options (AR and JJ) cost almost USD 700 each. Yes, this is a product of PU´s collapse, but still.

The fares between MVD and SCL were of about USD 300 (when Pluna was still flying) That is also, in my opinion, way too expensive.

Now, if I want to go to SCL I either have to contact LAN or go with bus. Maybe AR... but then... their fares start at USD 514 (I tried a dummy booking flying out in September)

LA wants for the same dates USD350.

And this is for a two hour flight.

---------------------------

I hope, for the sake of PU´s former employees and the southern cone travelling public, that something rises from PU´s ashes. And that the "something" is independent from LATAM.

I also hope that eventually we´ll have new airlines in Paraguay and Bolivia. Specially Bolivia. I deeply miss the Lloyd Aereo Boliviano, and the easy connections (alternatives) it provided at VVI. I don't want to be stuck with LATAM or AV/TA if I want to go to LIM, or with Copa and AV/TA if I want to go to Central America.

More options, more competition.

Regards,
 
SCL767
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 22):
A presence in the intra-southern cone market. A market where competition is decreasing. An operation out of MVD that could, probably, complement that of Avianca Brasil quite well.

Avianca Brasil serves numerous destinations with-in Brasil and AV-TA already route their international pax via BOG and LIM. Also, would Argentina grant them slots at AEP in order to operate the air-bridge between MVD and AEP?

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 22):
Now, if I want to go to SCL I either have to contact LAN or go with bus. Maybe AR... but then... their fares start at USD 514 (I tried a dummy booking flying out in September)

There used to be 6 daily non-stop flights between SCL and MVD; now there are only two daily flights operated by LA. The other option is to fly SCL-AEP-MVD on Austral. It's not LAN's fault that PU went out of business leaving LA as the only airline on the route. LAN will soon increase frequency on the SCL-MVD route.

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 22):
And that the "something" is independent from LATAM.

The Government of Uruguay disagrees and is "insisting" that LAN participates in the auction of PU's assets in September:

Quote:
El gobierno uruguayo enfocará sus esfuerzos por conseguir que la aerolínea chilena Lan participe del remate de los activos de Pluna el próximo 3 de setiembre...Tras el Consejo de Ministros, Carámbula destacó que Lan Chile ya aceptó agregar una nueva frecuencia diaria a las dos que ya posee entre Montevideo y Santiago. Agregó que en el futuro inmediato podría agregarse un cuarto vuelo.
Gobierno seduce a Lan Chile para que oferte en remate de Pluna
 
PlunaCRJ
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:43 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 23):
Avianca Brasil serves numerous destinations with-in Brasil and AV-TA already route their international pax via BOG and LIM. Also, would Argentina grant them slots at AEP in order to operate the air-bridge between MVD and AEP?

Avianca Brasil is not an operator in the southern cone. BOG and LIM do not serve the intra southern cone market.

Is AV/TA a choice if I want to travel between MVD and SCL, or MVD-ASU, or from EZE to POA? No, they are not. The hubs at LIM and BOG have their function, but they don´t help at all in this particular subject.

And about the MVD-AEP shuttle... well, you never know. But the intention is for the new carrier that buys PU´s assets to fly the route. It was probably PU´s most valuable (intangible) asset.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 23):
There used to be 6 daily non-stop flights between SCL and MVD; now there are only two daily flights operated by LA. The other option is to fly SCL-AEP-MVD on Austral. It's not LAN's fault that PU went out of business leaving LA as the only airline on the route. LAN will soon increase frequency on the SCL-MVD route.

AU is not practical either, connecting via AEP is cumbersome and the fares aren´t any lower.

PU left a vacuum in the market, that´s true. Now, even if LA adds capacity in the route (I hope they do it soon) the undeniable fact is that for the consumer it will always be better to have two carriers/ options on a given route and not only one.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 23):
The Government of Uruguay disagrees and is "insisting" that LAN participates in the auction of PU's assets in September:

It´s their job to attract as much possible interest as they can. And if they are the highest bidder I am sure the government will happily sell PU´s assets to them. LA is a great airline, and it is very well managed.

Now, will this be the best outcome for the consumer, both Uruguayan and of the whole region?
I don´t think so.
 
Talaier
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:52 pm

Given that IB has a direct flight to MVD, if PU went into the OW sphere through LATAM, MVD could very well become a nice hub for flights into Paraguay, Bolivia and Southern Brazil with feed from AA and IB.
 
SCL767
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:09 pm

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 24):

Avianca Brasil is not an operator in the southern cone. BOG and LIM do not serve the intra southern cone market.

Is AV/TA a choice if I want to travel between MVD and SCL, or MVD-ASU, or from EZE to POA? No, they are not. The hubs at LIM and BOG have their function, but they don´t help at all in this particular subject.

AviancaTaca could care less about PU. AviancaTaca will eventually absorb the loss making carrier, Sky Airline. Both Avianca and Taca have bilateral code-share relationships with H2. H2 has indicated that it plans to launch new regional routes from SCL, i.e. GRU. Thus, H2 could potentially feed O6's network via GRU.

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 24):
And about the MVD-AEP shuttle... well, you never know. But the intention is for the new carrier that buys PU´s assets to fly the route. It was probably PU´s most valuable (intangible) asset.

I agree that it's PU's most valuable asset; along with its slots at GRU.

Quoting Talaier (Reply 25):
Given that IB has a direct flight to MVD, if PU went into the OW sphere through LATAM, MVD could very well become a nice hub for flights into Paraguay, Bolivia and Southern Brazil with feed from AA and IB.

AA will soon launch MIA-ASU and operates MIA-LPB-VVI-MIA. Should LATAM join OW, I would think that AA and IAG would feed their flights to Paraguay and Southern Brasil via LATAM's hubs at GIG and GRU. Flights to ASU are also available via EZE and SCL. Flights to LPB are available via LIM and SCL. Flights to VVI are available via ASU, LIM and SCL.
 
PlunaCRJ
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:11 pm

Quoting Talaier (Reply 25):

Given that IB has a direct flight to MVD, if PU went into the OW sphere through LATAM, MVD could very well become a nice hub for flights into Paraguay, Bolivia and Southern Brazil with feed from AA and IB.

That´s true, but couldn´t GRU do it better?

IB and AA nonetheless codeshared with PU before the collapse...
 
PlunaCRJ
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:22 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 26):
AviancaTaca could care less about PU. AviancaTaca will eventually absorb the loss making carrier, Sky Airline.

Yes, I doubt AVTA is interested in PU. And I agree that they will probably end up buying Sky. It sure looks that way.

I still think though that the best possible outcome out of the PU asset sale in the point of the consumer would be one where AVTA buys PU. It´s unlikely, yes.

As much as I want AVTA to participate in the southern cone market, I would hate to see Sky go. We need more independent airlines, no less!
 
757gb
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:17 am

So does anybody want to risk a guess as to who might really go for what is left of Pluna?
The fact that the government already made plans for a second auction if the first one failed seems to be a sign that they don't see a lot of interest, though it might be too early to tell. The auction is a little more than a month away. I don't know enough to even make a guess. Lopez Mena seemed likely but the things he's said indicate otherwise (unless he is purposely downplaying his interest right now, which wouldn't surprise me).
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
CRJ900
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:26 pm

Are the 13 x CRJ900s stored at MVD or have they been returned to Bombardier in Canada?
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
757gb
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:58 pm

I am not sure, but the 7 that were bought by Pluna (the ones being auctioned) were in MVD I think. The rest were going to be returned to the lessors, but I don't know if that has happened yet.

Sol Lineas Aereas has stated that they will participate in the auction (sorry, link in Spanish only at this time):

http://www.elobservador.com.uy/notic...ara-a-subasta-de-aviones-de-pluna/

In the same article it says that they will try to obtain certification as an Uruguayan flag carrier. Their plan would be to hire 300 workers if they win. That right there marks a problem IMO. The government is trying to get the employees hired as part of the deal, but it stands to reason that a downsized airline will not need as many employees.
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
757gb
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:54 pm

Today I came across a small list of interested parties for the auction so far:
- Sol Lineas Aereas
- Conviasa
- Cutcsa (local ground transportation company)
- Asian investors (unspecified)
- A group of Pluna's ex-employees (who claim to have access to financing)

Source:

http://elobservador.com.uy/noticia/2...de-pago-para-los-aviones-de-pluna/
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Gonzalo
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting 757gb (Reply 32):
Today I came across a small list of interested parties for the auction so far:

After reading the article, I have two things clear :

1.- LAN, or LATAM, is nowhere in the list, something that is good news IMHO.
2.- Sol, and the Argentinians who run it, have a VERY, VEEERY HARD FACE. Asking the Uruguay to give them a lot of advantages and warranties to participate in the auction, only WEEKS after another Argentinian group leave a real disaster behind, requires an absolute and pure lack of shame. I refuse to believe that the Uruguayan government could have the immense level of desperation and stupidity combined to approve a request like the one Sol is doing.

Rgds.

G.
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PlunaCRJ
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:50 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 33):
2.- Sol, and the Argentinians who run it, have a VERY, VEEERY HARD FACE. Asking the Uruguay to give them a lot of advantages and warranties to participate in the auction, only WEEKS after another Argentinian group leave a real disaster behind, requires an absolute and pure lack of shame. I refuse to believe that the Uruguayan government could have the immense level of desperation and stupidity combined to approve a request like the one Sol is doing.

Only because they are from Argentina? I don´t understand.

This "Sol Uruguay" concept isn´t new, I remember hearing about their plans for Uruguay a long time ago....

Quoting 757gb (Reply 32):
Today I came across a small list of interested parties for the auction so far:
- Sol Lineas Aereas
- Conviasa
- Cutcsa (local ground transportation company)
- Asian investors (unspecified)
- A group of Pluna's ex-employees (who claim to have access to financing)

Conviasa also was interested in Pluna in 2007. I consider it a purely political move. I wouldn´t like seeing this go forward.

Cutcsa, I don´t see this either. They said they were interested and that they were going to "consider" the business, and that declaration set de media and the general population in a sort of hysterical frenzy. The whole thing was blown out of proportion. I would prefer Cutcsa over Conviasa though.


About Lopez Mena; his absence is startling. This is arguably the great opportunity he was waiting for. Probably BQB was set up in anticipation of this scenario.

What is he doing? Is he adopting a low profile, as 757GB said, on purpose? Or after seeing how things are going for BQB (I can´t see that venture being very successful...) he is backtracking from the business?
 
CamiloA380
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 26):
AviancaTaca could care less about PU

Yeah and the sky is blue. It's that obvious.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 33):

I'm beginning to think you just can't control your hate for Argentina besides also showing us how little you know about Sol. Sol is a very nice little airline who were very unfortunate to lose a Saab 340 and it's passengers as well as crew in a crash.

Quoting 757gb (Reply 32):
- Cutcsa (local ground transportation company)

How about....
http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j351/octavio747/599340_10150928988556949_1227345183_n.jpg
 
Seriously though, a lot are complaining that they want cheaper bus tickets first and I don't know how well they could pull it off as an airline. Not to talk about how the media is making such a fuss about it.
To be honest, for now its just "bla bla bla". 
Quoting 757gb (Reply 32):
- Asian investors (unspecified)

Heard it was some from the Middle East and also Germany.

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 34):
This "Sol Uruguay" concept isn´t new, I remember hearing about their plans for Uruguay a long time ago....

Exactly, they had plans to launch MVD-MAD and was it MVD-RAI-MAD? With A340s, which sounds crazy.
Soon they are going to represent the government a flag carrier project. (They have intentions to start a cargo division too)

Conviasa as PlunaCRJ stated it's more of a political move since now they joined Mercosur and all but I think they are more interested in the planes rather than taking over the airline. God forbid the later. 

BQB just picked 70 ex-pluna pilots and cabin crew. The flight to Rivera is going to be discontinued due to the lack of a more precise approach, making it hard to approach and land in difficult conditions, freeing up some time of the ATRs to cater for other routes. 2 more ATRs are being negotiated and in a recent interview JCLM mentioned they are in talks with Airbus, Boeing and Bombardier for either A319NEO, 737-700ER or CS100. He has his plans, but we will see how things turns out.
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 33):
2.- Sol, and the Argentinians who run it, have a VERY, VEEERY HARD FACE. Asking the Uruguay to give them a lot of advantages and warranties to participate in the auction, only WEEKS after another Argentinian group leave a real disaster behind, requires an absolute and pure lack of shame. I refuse to believe that the Uruguayan government could have the immense level of desperation and stupidity combined to approve a request like the one Sol is doing.

I am similarly baffled by your comment regarding potential strategic investors from Argentina. It is unclear what this has to do with aviation policy in Buenos Aires.

The reality is that foreign capital is the obvious option here and the only real private Argentine investment in the civil aviation sector rests with SOL and BQB. Both are operators in the Rio de la Plata and have a strategic interest in the UY market. Indeed, the entire BQB business model is focused on AR-UY traffic.

The bigger question should be: are either of these operators even remotely capable of developing, financing and executing a commercial business plan for PU? Who knows? What we do know is that whoever succeeds in acquiring the route rights, the 7 CRJ900, and personnel should not rely on a dime of government credit to execute their plan. Not one dime. No financing terms, no 'condiciones'. Whatever financing these acquirers need should be sourced from private creditors or equity investors, not the UY government.

SOL has already stated they are intensely interested in 'generous terms' from the government, their requests should be roundly rejected.
 
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:24 pm

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 34):
About Lopez Mena; his absence is startling. This is arguably the great opportunity he was waiting for. Probably BQB was set up in anticipation of this scenario.

What is he doing? Is he adopting a low profile, as 757GB said, on purpose? Or after seeing how things are going for BQB (I can´t see that venture being very successful...) he is backtracking from the business?

Yep. Exactly CRJ. He's gazed waiting on the frequencies. BQB will start operating MVD-COR starting 16AUG12, and MVD-ASU soon (I can't confirm the date on that one).

The planes carry a debt on them - and probably they will carry unionized pilots which will be, all in all dangerous for a starter operation (Mr. López is very keen on letting unions gain too much control). Adopting the CRJ would actually have them do that as all PU pilots were unionized.

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 35):
I'm beginning to think you just can't control your hate for Argentina besides also showing us how little you know about Sol. Sol is a very nice little airline who were very unfortunate to lose a Saab 340 and it's passengers as well as crew in a crash.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it, Camilo. Thank you.

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 36):

I am similarly baffled by your comment regarding potential strategic investors from Argentina. It is unclear what this has to do with aviation policy in Buenos Aires.

Thank you PDP. Your comment as you guys say in the other bank of the river, Impecable  
Saludos,

[Edited 2012-08-02 15:04:59 by srbmod]
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
757gb
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:25 pm

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 36):
The reality is that foreign capital is the obvious option here and the only real private Argentine investment in the civil aviation sector rests with SOL and BQB.

Trying to look at things from different perspectives, I would have to say that people usually understand that there are is no local financing to pull this off (I'll agree with Camilo380, Cutcsa seems like all talk). Having said that, it is also true that the biggest headaches right now for the government have come from Argentina, and they may not be all that crazy about how the people would perceive another group from there investing, especially after requesting special treatment as far as payment.

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 34):
This "Sol Uruguay" concept isn´t new, I remember hearing about their plans for Uruguay a long time ago....

AFAIK they even got the permission to fly the MVD-MAD route some time ago. They were looking for an alliance with probably a European carrier to implement it. There were rumors that they were getting ready to do this by the end of the year.

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 34):
Conviasa also was interested in Pluna in 2007. I consider it a purely political move.

Political with a capital P if I may say so. I am sure that the topic came up in negotiations over Venezuela's joining Mercosur. It doesn't take a genius to see that the government wants to put this mess away as fast as possible, with as little background revealed as possible. He offered them a golden parachute.

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 34):
Cutcsa, I don´t see this either.

Agreed, but if by some miracle it happens I hope the airplanes have better on time performance than the buses (anybody from MVD will relate to that one...).

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 34):
About Lopez Mena; his absence is startling. This is arguably the great opportunity he was waiting for. Probably BQB was set up in anticipation of this scenario.

Like him or not, he has a good nose for business. My thinking is that he probably knows that any effort with PU remnants is doomed, and he will simply wait calmly on the sidelines and let it all crumble. This story doesn't end on September 3rd.

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 35):
BQB just picked 70 ex-pluna pilots and cabin crew. The flight to Rivera is going to be discontinued due to the lack of a more precise approach, making it hard to approach and land in difficult conditions, freeing up some time of the ATRs to cater for other routes. 2 more ATRs are being negotiated and in a recent interview JCLM mentioned they are in talks with Airbus, Boeing and Bombardier for either A319NEO, 737-700ER or CS100. He has his plans, but we will see how things turns out.

Great info CamiloA380... THANKS!!!
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting 757gb (Reply 39):
Trying to look at things from different perspectives, I would have to say that people usually understand that there are is no local financing to pull this off (I'll agree with Camilo380, Cutcsa seems like all talk). Having said that, it is also true that the biggest headaches right now for the government have come from Argentina, and they may not be all that crazy about how the people would perceive another group from there investing, especially after requesting special treatment as far as payment.

As mentioned, the UY government should stay away from offering any financing terms to potential investors. Any deal for route rights, assets and operations should be for cash, cash and only cash. No credit terms by the State, no equity participation by the State. The State should be solely focused on clearing its guarantee on the aircraft and granting a capable operator route rights.

Any investment will be foreign. Local private capital does not possess the resources to acquire and operate a carrier with even just 7 aircraft. The most logical acquirer would be an existing private strategic investor, hopefully one with existing operations in the region. Operators in Brasil do not appear interested, unfortunately. Lopez Mena and SOL could be possibilities. Again, the issue remains whether either of these is capable of developing, obtaining financing for, and executing a strategic business plan for the assets on offer.

Quoting 757gb (Reply 39):
This story doesn't end on September 3rd.

For sure, this drama will most likely continue...
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:27 pm

Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 34):
Only because they are from Argentina? I don´t understand.
Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 35):
I'm beginning to think you just can't control your hate for Argentina
Quoting PDPsol (Reply 36):
I am similarly baffled by your comment regarding potential strategic investors from Argentina.

Argentina's investors and aviation / government authorities are deeply involved in the root causes of the death of PLUNA, and having another "investor" with the same origin, asking for special treatment to participate in the auction, is not exactly tasteful, considering that there are still thousands of passengers who paid for travels that they never be able to do. I have relatives who paid PU for a flight MVD-SCL in September. Obviously they lost everything, the flight, and their plans here in Chile. When I ask their opinion, the answer is always the same : Leadgate is the main responsible for this. Yes, the Uruguayan government also allowed this to happen, but they can punish the government voting, while Mr. Campiani is laughing out loud and counting his piles of money. Do you think that SOL asking for special treatment is a good move at this moment ???
The public opinion in Uruguay is very, VERY critic about Argentina's policies and the behavior of the Argentinian investors, even the President Mujica had to state that "the countries can't move away", in response to the ( frequent and stronger day by day ) demand of a firm position of Uruguay regarding Argentina and its policies.
If pointing out that reality, makes me a "hater", well, I don't know what to say to that.



Quoting 757gb (Reply 38):
Having said that, it is also true that the biggest headaches right now for the government have come from Argentina, and they may not be all that crazy about how the people would perceive another group from there investing, especially after requesting special treatment as far as payment.

That is exactly the point. I hope you don't receive personal attacks for pointing this out.

Rgds.

G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
757gb
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:30 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 37):
The planes carry a debt on them - and probably they will carry unionized pilots which will be, all in all dangerous for a starter operation

That is one of the things that have me worried. I'm no expert but I don't see the business case. Pluna stopped flying... there is no loyalty left from its passengers, in fact many of us would not have flown them again if they were still operating. The damage done is not being totally understood by many in my opinion. There are people out there that have this dream of somebody rolling in with a bunch of cash, dusting off the planes and resuming operations, probably even under the same name. Even the transportation minister was recently speculating that through the selection process they would have to take into account how much extra money the buyers were willing to give the government to take care of the workers and the frustrated travelers. It was unreal: he was throwing around numbers like 50, 100 million dollars as if it was pocket change. I thought he was either ignorant or high on something.

The government wanted to get at least 135 million USD. Very soon after they said that they came up with a second eventual auction if the first one didn't work, in which the base was 100 million. Rumors out there are that they'll be lucky if somebody offers 50 or 60 million, and to be honest the strings attached seem more like very heavy chains for anyone to be optimist about it. I fear that at the end of the day it will indeed be Chavez who will pull out his wallet and "save the day". Pluna owes ANCAP (state fuel vendor) tens of millions of dollars for unpaid fuel. Guess what: ANCAP owes PDVSA (Venezuela's oil company) big time, and part of the sweetener that Mr. C threw in coming into the Mercosur was to condone some of that debt (mighty generous huh). The way the picture is coming together is smelling like dead, rotten fish to me.

For more than 30 years I remember hearing jet noise, looking up and seeing Pluna's birds most of time: 727's, 707, DC10, 737's, 757, 767, ATR and then the CRJs. It's been about a month now and I still can't believe that when I hear noise and look up it is not Pluna and it will probably never be again... The skies seem very empty  
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
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cybergus
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:26 am

Quoting 757gb (Reply 41):
fear that at the end of the day it will indeed be Chavez who will pull out his wallet and "save the day".

It will be a total disaster if Mr. C put his hands over it. Venezuela's introduction into the Mercosur was the perfect fit with Chavez campaign for the forthcoming election. The purchase of the E190 (Commercial relationship with Brazil) was made with such rush that the first plane is expected before October (How convenient). I'm not saying that Conviasa and all the airlines in Venezuela need a complete fleet renewal, but we can't be blind and not see this as a political strategy. PU CRJ IMHO that are a better fit for V0 than the E190 as the airline already operates 4 CRJ-200...now I don't think that Chavez is only interested in the planes from what you are saying.

Hope the best for PU...great airline that did not deserve this faith.

Cheers

Tavo
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757gb
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:19 pm

Quoting cybergus (Reply 42):
Hope the best for PU...great airline that did not deserve this faith.

Thank you for that...

I found the article that had the Transportation Minister's words, along with some interesting tidbits. Not to spark any more wars here, but they are trying to be careful with giving routes to Argentine flag carriers, calling it a "political error":

http://m.elobservador.com.uy/noticia...a-si-quiere-mantener-frecuencias-/

"El ministro agregó que no se pude cometer “el error político” de dejar que la explotación de la conectividad aérea entre Argentina y Uruguay quede solo en manos de empresas de bandera argentina. También señaló que se debe actuar rápido para evitar “que los clientes se acostumbren a viajar en otras empresas”. "

Translation:

The minister added that they can't make the "political error" of letting the operation of the air connectivity between Argentina and Uruguay fall only in the hands of Argentine flag companies. He also indicated that they have to act fast so customers don't get used to flying with other airlines.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but that last phrase just makes me want to say "too damn late"... And after all, the new airline would be "another" airline itself. They have said time and again that Pluna is no more...

Regarding BQB, he said that they could lose frequencies if they don't "participate" in the auction, however the following implies that they would have to win if they want to keep them:

"Pintado indicó este viernes que si otra compañía gana la subasta, “en principio” BQB dejaría de utilizar las frecuencias que le fueron asignadas provisoriamente. “Después vendrá una decisión del Estado, que es parte de la negociación, para los siete aviones sobre la cantidad de frecuencias que les corresponderían”, comentó el jerarca.

“Todo depende de cuánto ponga” la supuesta otra empresa. “Si nos dicen ‘nosotros compramos los siete aviones, ponemos la bandera uruguaya, le contratamos el 90% o el 100% del personal de Pluna y en vez de US$ 40 millones al Estado le damos US$ 100 millones para que resuelvan el problema de todos los pasajeros’, se les dan todas las frecuencias”, comentó, a modo de ejemplo."

First part:
"Pintado indicated on Friday that if another company wins the auction, "initially" BQB would stop flying the frequencies assigned to them provisionally. "Later we will have a decision from the State, who is part of the negotiation, for the seven airplanes about the number of frequencies that would correspond to them".

The second paragraph is what has me wondering what alternate reality he lives in:
"It all depends on how much they put on the table" - "they" being the supposed alternate winner - "If they tell us 'we'll buy the seven airplanes, put a Uruguayan flag on them, hire 90 to 100% of Pluna's ex-employees and instead of $40 million for the state we give the state $100 million (dollars) so they can solve the problem of all the stranded passengers' then they will get all the frequencies" he said as an example.
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
LVISA
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:08 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 40):
Argentina's investors and aviation / government authorities are deeply involved in the root causes of the death of PLUNA, and having another "investor" with the same origin, asking for special treatment to participate in the auction, is not exactly tasteful, considering that there are still thousands of passengers who paid for travels that they never be able to do. I have relatives who paid PU for a flight MVD-SCL in September. Obviously they lost everything, the flight, and their plans here in Chile. When I ask their opinion, the answer is always the same : Leadgate is the main responsible for this. Yes, the Uruguayan government also allowed this to happen, but they can punish the government voting, while Mr. Campiani is laughing out loud and counting his piles of money. Do you think that SOL asking for special treatment is a good move at this moment ???
The public opinion in Uruguay is very, VERY critic about Argentina's policies and the behavior of the Argentinian investors, even the President Mujica had to state that "the countries can't move away", in response to the ( frequent and stronger day by day ) demand of a firm position of Uruguay regarding Argentina and its policies.
If pointing out that reality, makes me a "hater", well, I don't know what to say to that.

Argentina this, Argentina that, bla bla bla. Tiring. Hey, I have an idea; and yes, I know, it's a rather simplistic one... Uruguay, as a sovereign country, can suspend, limit, stop, whatever, any flights from any other country that they feel it's harming their national interests. They can also demand equal treatment in the number of frequencies, etc. So, if they stop any Argentinian carrier from flying there it may, (and probably will, IMHO), put a stop to the air policies and practices of the Argentinian government and create a more equal playing field. There is enough for everyone and competition is key to improving service, increase business and tourism, give better value to the flying public and bring countries together rather than pushing them apart. If the Uruguayan government is unwilling to take a stand then they have no one else but themselves to blame.

And about SOL and their "demands". Just say "NO". How difficult is that?

Quoting 757gb (Reply 41):
For more than 30 years I remember hearing jet noise, looking up and seeing Pluna's birds most of time: 727's, 707, DC10, 737's, 757, 767, ATR and then the CRJs. It's been about a month now and I still can't believe that when I hear noise and look up it is not Pluna and it will probably never be again... The skies seem very empty

I had the privilege of flying one of PLUNA's Viscounts in 1960 from Rio to AEP via MVD. I was 6 years old and I still remember looking out on those huge round windows... And then seeing PLUNA in AEP year after year; for me, they are a very dear memory and I can only wholeheartedly agree with you. Yes, the skies are very empty...
 
757gb
Posts: 375
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:53 pm

Quoting lvisa (Reply 44):
They can also demand equal treatment in the number of frequencies, etc. So, if they stop any Argentinian carrier from flying there it may, (and probably will, IMHO), put a stop to the air policies and practices of the Argentinian government and create a more equal playing field.

It sounds reasonable and I wish I could agree with you lvisa, but we'll be in a world of hurt if we take a stand like that now, because retaliation will come in many forms, not just related to the airline market, and Uruguay is SO dependent on Argentina's money... Having said that, the attitude shown through these last few years has been pathetic, allowing all kinds of mistreatment on so many levels. So I agree that we got nobody but ourselves (well the government, but "we" chose it) to blame.

Quoting lvisa (Reply 44):
I had the privilege of flying one of PLUNA's Viscounts in 1960 from Rio to AEP via MVD.

WOW... first time I ever went to the airport the first airplane I watched start up and take off was one of the Viscounts. I remember how loud those turboprops were... loved them   . Thanks for sharing!

Regards,
GB
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:59 pm

Quoting lvisa (Reply 44):
Uruguay, as a sovereign country, can suspend, limit, stop, whatever, any flights from any other country that they feel it's harming their national interests. They can also demand equal treatment in the number of frequencies, etc. So, if they stop any Argentinian carrier from flying there it may, (and probably will, IMHO), put a stop to the air policies and practices of the Argentinian government and create a more equal playing field.



Of course. That should been done YEARS ago !!!! The answer to your question is the description of 757gb regarding the dependence of Uruguay, dependence that should be destroyed completely. But first Uruguay needs to build strong commercial ties with the world.
Chile can be used as a good example of the way Uruguay should walk. Having free trade agreements with a high number and variety of countries ( like Chile has ) makes you almost immune to the caprices of one single country. Having strong commercial ties with China, US, Korea, Europe, etc., the impact of a collapse or a full closure of Argentine economy means very very little for Chile. ( Yes, Cencosud, LAN, Falabella and other big corporations will be hurt, but not the whole country ). Uruguay could make the effort and say good bay to the Mercosur, which means nothing but problems for the economy, and start to negotiate FTA with all the countries they can. I'll bet you in 10 years the dependence of Uruguay from Argentina will disappear. But obviously you need a government behaving like an adult to do all this. Acting like the little boy of the neighborhood, bending over and staring to the floor every time the other abuse of you, is not the way to change things.

Quoting lvisa (Reply 44):
And about SOL and their "demands". Just say "NO". How difficult is that?

Very easy indeed. Let's see how Mr. Mujica answers your question.

Rgds.
G.

[Edited 2012-08-03 10:02:24]
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
757gb
Posts: 375
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:11 pm

RE: Pluna's Ex Workers: Latam Very Interested In Pluna

Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 46):
Uruguay could make the effort and say good bay to the Mercosur, which means nothing but problems for the economy, and start to negotiate FTA with all the countries they can.

Can't answer that without going political. The chances were there and were ignored in favor of ideology. An FTA with the US was rejected while at the same time they were dying to sign something with Chavez.  

I agree that the Chilean model would have been the right path, even if belonging to Mercosur.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 46):
Very easy indeed. Let's see how Mr. Mujica answers your question.

Indeed...
God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...

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