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tommy767
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Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:59 pm

Quoting rwsea (Reply 46):

From what I understand DL flies the enhanced 763 with AVOD and lie flat J seats on JFK-IST pretty consistently with the 333 operating somtimes as well (333 J seats no lie flat but still very acceptable.)
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mayor
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Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting rwsea (Reply 46):
Who in their right mind would choose DL's ratty old 767 with a pathetic business class and even worse coach offering, when they could instead choose new planes with lie-flat business class seats, AVOD, and all the proper amenities in 2012 - not to mention, an airline that actually tries to provide good catering and in-flight service.

You people have absolutely NO patience for what DL is trying to do.........sad, really. When was the last time you flew on DL (if ever) or are you just going by what you read on here or third party reports?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
panamair
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Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 50):
the 333 operating somtimes as well (333 J seats no lie flat but still very acceptable.)

Delta only operated the A332 on JFK-IST one summer; they have never used the A333 to IST.
 
catiii
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Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:22 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 49):
As opposed to zilch in DL?

So let me make sure I have this right: the poster said that food is so fundamental to the Turkish people, and therefore he is so offended that AF would serve a cold meal. Meanwhile your own national airline serves cold meals, so it isn't like they're that in touch with the "fundamental" needs of their own people, and your retort is to try and compare Turkish Airlines' economy class domestic service to DL's domestic service (at least I presume it's DL's domestic service, because to imply that DL doesn't serve a meal in international economy is such an uneducated and misinformed statement that I doubt anyone would make it)?

[Edited 2012-07-23 14:28:06]
 
panamair
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Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 48):
despite offering top-notch D&O catering in J

oops, too late to edit...meant to say Do&Co
 
leftyboarder
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Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:56 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 53):

No, the point is that, you are comparing TK domestic with AF Europe short haul. One of them is 1hr long whereas CDG-IST is over 3hrs. Yes TK serves cold sandwiches (along with dessert and small salad mind you) in domestic; last I flew AF to CDG all I got was a salad. So yes, food matters.
 
rwy04lga
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Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 49):
As opposed to zilch in DL?

Zilch (as in no food) in economy on DL to IST? I'll take your word for it.
 
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LAXintl
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Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 48):
If product were such a huge driver, TK wouldn't be one of the cheapest J options in many markets.
TK is in the business these days trying to buy market share to build their transit hub.

Try to fare some Turkey O&D tickets, and you will see how the fares will often vary greatly. Really no different then buying a ticket from an airline hub in the US, versus a connection fare.

But ultimately, how TK decides to price is OK. They have the lowest cost base on any AEA member airline, and are free to push for more transit flow via IST.

Quoting panamair (Reply 48):
I would prefer to fly with most Delta BusinessElite cabin staff than the TK ones I have experienced.

No prob. Everyone has a choice. Obviously many really love TK and they seem to do very well these days on the global stage earning kudos.

Just in this specific discussion, I'd be willing to bet DL for most in Turkey would be the last choice, and only wins sometimes due to tremendously low fares to the US they push (eg $600 r/t to the West Coast).
There was an interview regarding DL+Skyteam last year in one of the Turkish papers and it pretty was stated by the local sales team they face huge pressures sell these days due to the added competition and shrinking market share.

Quoting panamair (Reply 48):
Not to mention their IST lounge features some of the most apathetic and surly staff I have ever come across (as far as a premium travel experience is concerned), enough to give some of the nastiest lounge 'dragons' at the U.S. carriers a run for their money....

Again, I'm a bit surprised at the strong language you use. The new TK lounge has been recognized as one the best in the world, and I suspect the staff are part of what people approve of.
In my own travels I've not had any lounge issues (love the new one) and have been greeted nicely at the door, and by the interior staff at the bar or food area.

Quoting mayor (Reply 51):
You people have absolutely NO patience for what DL is trying to do.........sad, really.

IMO, this goes back to the greater issue with Delta. It simply has poor brand awareness, or at least affinity in many peoples minds the way I see it.

Generally there will always be a bunch that are pro a company product, a group that is in very opposed, and the large majority in the middle that are rather neutral. To me seeing various branding and media surveys, I tend to believe the middle majority tends to skew more negative in DL's case. (for instance compared to a Southwest which is a brand that has high consumer mindshare and affinity).

I'm not sure what drives it, however at the end of the day to counter this whatever marketing and advertising I believe Delta does it simply does not connect to people, or atleast leave them with a lasting positive feeling which is so critical ultimately. So whatever new products, changes, or fancy things DL is trying to push often simply fall on deaf ears.

[Edited 2012-07-23 15:19:28]

[Edited 2012-07-23 16:12:09]
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MaverickM11
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Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:21 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 55):
So yes, food matters.

No it does not. Guaranteed. If it did there'd be no LCCs in Turkey, no SAW.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
MSPNWA
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Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 50):
From what I understand DL flies the enhanced 763 with AVOD and lie flat J seats on JFK-IST pretty consistently with the 333 operating somtimes as well (333 J seats no lie flat but still very acceptable.)

I'm only seeing the old 767 configuration in the current schedule.

Quoting mayor (Reply 51):
You people have absolutely NO patience for what DL is trying to do.........sad, really. When was the last time you flew on DL (if ever) or are you just going by what you read on here or third party reports?

Kinda hard to be patient with DL. Most 763s are still in the stone age. If it costs them JFK-IST, then they deserve it.
 
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usdcaguy
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Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:52 pm

I must say this is the strangest thread I've seen in a long time. We don't even have confirmation of DL's plans, and here we are theorizing about what they supposedly did wrong. What I would like to know is, what is the average salary of TK ticket/gate agents, ramp agents, flight attendants and pilots based in IST? How does that compare to the same roles for DL employees based in ATL? Is TK able to muscle their way into markets because they get away with paying crap salaries compared to those carriers based in Western Europe and the States? My impression is that most senior employees at US carriers get paid more than similar employees in Europe these days, even if they have less job security, annual leave and vacation. What this means is that it will necessarily be more costly for DL to fly to some places, especially when TK may fly newer planes and have a better hard product, although know BA/LH/KL/AF and other similar carriers fly to IST, so they have the same cost problem, but their stage lengths are much shorter.
 
rwsea
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Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:21 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 48):

If product were such a huge driver, TK wouldn't be one of the cheapest J options in many markets. As I said, TK is often in the top 3 of cheapest J options in many markets that transit IST (e.g., Europe to Asia), despite offering top-notch D&O catering in J.
Quoting panamair (Reply 48):
I would prefer to fly with most Delta BusinessElite cabin staff than the TK ones I have experienced.

TK is trying to build brand awareness and position themselves for the future. They're investing heavily in marketing in Western Europe and are hoping people will be enticed by the low price and choose them again in the future. And it's worked in my case at least - I've chosen them several times for routes to the Middle East and Southeast Asia.

Quoting mayor (Reply 51):
You people have absolutely NO patience for what DL is trying to do.........sad, really. When was the last time you flew on DL (if ever) or are you just going by what you read on here or third party reports?

I couldn't care less if DL will have a modern product 18 months from now - I'm buying tickets today and I'm not going to waste my money on a vastly inferior product. That's the issue. If DL loses IST now because they can't offer a competitive product TODAY, then that's the choice the've made. Personally, I fly Delta 2-3x per year on the AMS-PDX route. Usually the route has been an A332 which is at least tolerable with it's AVOD (albeit with limited choice) and angle-flat seats in J-class. That said, the catering is always awful - much worse than KL and other European airlines. In business class, the menus have changed ONCE in the last 4 years, and not for the better. The economy catering is simply an insult. DL could improve the catering today if they wanted to, but they clearly don't. The service can be great, or it can be indifferent, but it certainly isn't worth tolerating the poor hard and soft product that is being offered. This winter the route is downgrading to a 767, and frankly, I'm willing to accept a connection for a better product. A 10+ hour flight on DL's 767s is really that bad.
 
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mayor
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Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:28 pm

Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors

Quoting rwsea (Reply 61):

I couldn't care less if DL will have a modern product 18 months from now - I'm buying tickets today and I'm not going to waste my money on a vastly inferior product. That's the issue. If DL loses IST now because they can't offer a competitive product TODAY, then that's the choice the've made. Personally, I fly Delta 2-3x per year on the AMS-PDX route. Usually the route has been an A332 which is at least tolerable with it's AVOD (albeit with limited choice) and angle-flat seats in J-class. That said, the catering is always awful - much worse than KL and other European airlines. In business class, the menus have changed ONCE in the last 4 years, and not for the better. The economy catering is simply an insult. DL could improve the catering today if they wanted to, but they clearly don't. The service can be great, or it can be indifferent, but it certainly isn't worth tolerating the poor hard and soft product that is being offered. This winter the route is downgrading to a 767, and frankly, I'm willing to accept a connection for a better product. A 10+ hour flight on DL's 767s is really that bad.

Kinda makes you wonder, if it's so bad, why you haven't taken that connection before now  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
panamair
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:18 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 57):
There was an interview regarding DL Skyteam last year in one of the Turkish papers and it pretty was stated by the local sales team they face huge pressures sell these days due to the added competition and shrinking market share.

I am not doubting that DL is struggling in the market...hence I have not made any comment in any of my posts here that contradicts that notion.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 57):
Again, I'm a bit surprised at the strong language you use. The new TK lounge has been recognized as one the best in the world, and I suspect the staff are part of what people approve of.

As I said before, TK has come a long way in terms of hard product, and the new IST lounge is certainly evidence of that including a great food selection. However, the staff at the lounge (both during the interim period before the new lounge was in place and after the re-opening) have usually ranged from indifferent to impatient and rude (witnessed multiple instances of this whenever someone didn't have the right credentials to enter the lounge for instance - yes, people who don't follow the rules should be turned away, but this can be done politely). During the transition period, for example, when I entered the interim make-shift lounge, the staff were busy chit-chatting with each other, and when people approached them for entry, they slowly turned around and gave them the why-are-you-bothering-us look. When asked whether there were showers available, they couldn't even muster a monosyllabic reply, but instead just shook their heads and immediately returned to their conversation, etc.

Quoting rwsea (Reply 61):
In business class, the menus have changed ONCE in the last 4 years,

Actually, that is simply not true, and yes, I do have the menus and flight experiences to prove that. In fact, some of the entree choices just changed again both last month and this; and the last change before this was about 18 months ago...
 
fpetrutiu
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:31 am

I think DL would be better served if they re-open OTP especially since now they can use RO as a feeder and OTP is a SkyTeam hub. RO can also provide DL with onward connections to Kishinew, Amman, Ryad, Beirut, Damascus, Larnaca, and other middle east dest that are not served by DL.
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
Burj
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:34 am

Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 40):
Here we go again! CDG is not the best airport but it's not more a nightmare than other airports!

Um....which airports (major hubs) are worse for transiting than CDG? You just have to compare CDG to AMS to see the night and day difference.

Quoting turkishraf (Reply 45):
Finally I have to say that changing planes at CDG was the most painful in Europe. If you don't speak French it's a nightmare. I do, so it was not so painful, but I found myself translating for my English fellow passengers.

Exactly....and even if you do speak French it doesn't make the distances shorter, the staff less rude, the lines shorter, etc etc....
 
MaverickM11
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:35 am

Quoting panamair (Reply 63):
TK has come a long way in terms of hard product, and the new IST lounge is certainly evidence of that including a great food selection.
Quoting rwsea (Reply 61):

I couldn't care less if DL will have a modern product 18 months from now

It really has very little to do with product. TK has lower costs than DL, so it's always going to be able to undercut DL. In the local market it offers a much broader schedule with 2-3 daily departures whereas DL only has one. On the IST side forget it; there's no reason to fly DL other than a low fare--it's like an Atlantan choosing LH out of ATL. On the NYC side TK still has the schedule advantage in the local market, and in the connections beyond JFK, many/most of them make more sense over Europe: few are going to fly LAX-JFK-IST on DL when they can do the same over CDG/AMS on AF/KL, etc.. DL is just caught in a tight spot, with a weaker schedule and higher costs than the competition--that wouldn't change if DL's product was the best in the world.
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fpetrutiu
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting burj (Reply 65):
Um....which airports (major hubs) are worse for transiting than CDG? You just have to compare CDG to AMS to see the night and day difference.
Quoting burj (Reply 65):
Exactly....and even if you do speak French it doesn't make the distances shorter, the staff less rude, the lines shorter, etc etc....

I agree, CDG must be the world's worst airport to connect through. I hate going there (was just through there last month). From all my travels, I have yet to find a worse airport...
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
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usdcaguy
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:31 am

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 64):
RO can also provide DL with onward connections to Kishinew, Amman, Ryad, Beirut, Damascus, Larnaca, and other middle east dest that are not served by DL.

This is true, but unfortunately, AF/KL also fly to RUH/BEY/DAM (until recently)/LCA (via CY) and AMM. There is still significant overlap within Europe between carriers, and if someone needs to fly to KIV, they can take RO from CDG over OTP, but KIV is a very small market for most originating in the US. It's a pity, but AF/KL do not leave many connecting pax for RO, who seems best at serving passengers traveling to/from Southeastern Europe. I wonder if DL/RO could offer a low cost product over OTP via a joint venture; if, for example, one flew ATL-OTP-VIE instead of ATL-CDG-VIE, would a ticket that was consistently $200 less be enough to persuade people to fly over OTP? DL/RO could perhaps focus on a very basic service with relatively low business/economy fares and leverage their lower cost base.


Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 66):
TK has lower costs than DL

Why is this? What exactly is making TK less costly? Anything to do with salaries? Surely those relatively new Airbuses are costly...

[Edited 2012-07-23 18:32:14]
 
fpetrutiu
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:34 am

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 68):
ATL-OTP-VIE instead of ATL-CDG-VIE,

lol, I would pay $200 more not to fly through CDG...
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
catiii
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:40 am

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 55):

So then if food matters so much to the Turkish people then where is your outrage at Turkish's domestic offering? The premise of the poster's argument was that AF was out of touch with the IST market because their food is cold. But I guess THY offeri cold food is ok...
 
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LAXintl
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:13 am

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 68):
Why is this? What exactly is making TK less costly? Anything to do with salaries? Surely those relatively new Airbuses are costly...

You realize the average GDP in Turkey is about $15,000 compared to about $48,000 for the US right.

Certainly things like labor cost, and cost of services and supplies are often lower.
Also TK has quite high efficiency on a per employee basis - one of the highest amongst AEA member airlines - far better than likes of AF, BA, LH, SK and AY.

Their network CASM in 2011 was 8.30 including fuel compared to 14.12 for Delta as an example.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
leftyboarder
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:10 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 70):
So then if food matters so much to the Turkish people then where is your outrage at Turkish's domestic offering? The premise of the poster's argument was that AF was out of touch with the IST market because their food is cold. But I guess THY offeri cold food is ok...

You still fail to get the point. On a domestic flight with no more than 30 minutes without seat belt sign off, you can hardly serve a cold sandwich - I have seen full flights where some rows in the middle couldn't be served. So why would there be an illogical outrage?

A flight from Paris to Istanbul, on the other hand, has enough duration to serve anything the airline can afford. Hence, TK serves hot meal versus AF's cold sandwich/salad or AZ's biscotti. BA serves hot meals to IST as well. There is the choice for Turks and Turks prefer the hot meal in this case. When AF starts serving cold sandwiches to Paris, I will show outrage, don't worry.
 
tcm
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:08 am

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 72):
A flight from Paris to Istanbul, on the other hand, has enough duration to serve anything the airline can afford. Hence, TK serves hot meal versus AF's cold sandwich/salad or AZ's biscotti. BA serves hot meals to IST as well. There is the choice for Turks and Turks prefer the hot meal in this case. When AF starts serving cold sandwiches to Paris, I will show outrage, don't worry.

People usually underestimate that catering is part of the experience for the regular customer. On almost every flight I hear pax commenting on the great TK catering, including many non-Turks. Nowadays Asian carriers come first (SQ, OZ, ANA, MH etc.) then followed by TK, QR, EK, EY and most Euro/U.S. carriers come last in the overall product quality. No wonder that that the old legacies such as DL and AF have difficulty in competing. They have to change their mindset.
 
firiko
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:09 am

Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 40):
AF clueless in the Turkish market? I'm flying AF once a week between DUS & CDG and everytime, there are at least 10 pax with a connection to IST.

In my opinion selling tickets doesn't get you market awarness.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 60):
aying crap salaries

In fact they pay a very satisfactory salary compared to the rest of the industries in the country.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 60):
must say this is the strangest thread I

It's a rumor until officaly announced. So strange by nature until Delta decides the paying customers are worth an announcenment.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 59):
Kinda hard to be patient with DL. Most 763s are still in the stone age. If it costs them JFK-IST, then they deserve it.

Couldn't agree with you more on that one. Funny enough their sales office [email protected] istanbul and flight attendants are no diffrent. I have come across flight attendants who wouldn't let the customer rest because she wanted to place her bags on a seat Likewise you can call the ticket desk at istanbul ready to buy a ticket and they will tell you they can not sell tickets over the phone while in fact with a little push from the supervisor they can

Quoting mayor (Reply 51):
You people have absolutely NO patience for what DL is trying to do.........sad, really. When was the last time you flew on DL (if ever) or are you just going by what you read on here or third party reports?

When has a paying customer become a third party ? I 
Quoting turkishraf (Reply 45):
I must agree with firkin. Air France are clueless. Food is fundamental to Turks and AF served a single cold dish (with a fantastic selection of wines mind! ) on the flight to IST. Combine this with the anti Turkish Rhetoric in the French press and the French government of late, and you end up with a product that's hard to sell in Turkey.

Finally I have to say that changing planes at CDG was the most painful in Europe. If you don't speak French it's a nightmare. I do, so it was not so painful, but I found myself translating for my English fellow passengers.

Looking at AF in general, they are a loss making parastatal, hindered in a burgeoning new market by the indignation of the people they are trying to sell to.

I am glad you have got my point   According to some here this is part of a greater plan and marketing stragety

Quoting catiii (Reply 43):
And posters on this board become clueless when they make sweeping generalizations about an airline's marketing intelligence in a market based on a bad customer service experience...

Since when has ignoring customers cultural diffrences such as the local language needs become part of marketing intelligence ?????   More of a marketing nightmare . You can't sell or market if you can not communicate or can you   ? if you can let the world know cause you are on to something there.
 
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usdcaguy
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:36 am

Quoting mayor,reply=62
[quote=firiko
(Reply 74):
In fact they pay a very satisfactory salary compared to the rest of the industries in the country.

Would you mind explaining what that means, exactly? How much would that be in TRY on a monthly basis? How does this compare to salaries at DL or BA? My point is that I believe DL's comparative costs may keep them from investing in new equipment at the same rate as TK, who also is well positioned for connecting traffic at IST to a variety of places in Central Asia, the Middle East and the Balkans. DL is not as well positioned at JFK despite their better efforts; they have to get much more originating traffic from JFK that flies only to IST, traffic from IST flying only to JFK and perhaps a few other cities with nonstops from JFK. That limits Delta's opportunity and makes it harder for them to fill planes. A combination of both network and cost issues seem to be hindering DL's expansion to markets that either do not have much connecting traffic on either end or enough premium traffic to make up for the shortfall.
 
SurfandSnow
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:08 am

This isn't the first time I've heard this rumor, and I would not be at all surprised to see it come true. DL expanded rapidly in the transatlantic realm throughout the 90s and 2000s, but have since retrenched to the primary European gateways and SkyTeam partner hubs, along with some unique niche markets (i.e. STR, PSA, AGP). For many reasons, I see them dropping IST:

New network strategy: With regard to Europe, all of the longer routes beyond Scandinavia/Germany/Italy have now gone seasonal or been dropped altogether, with the sole exception of SVO, a major partner airline hub. DL had no qualms cutting BUD, KBP, and OTP whilst going seasonal in ATH and PRG, I really can't imagine why IST would fare any different. There is simply no reason to overfly JV alliance partner hubs at CDG/AMS/FCO unless yields justify it, and I would be shocked if the business case for year round JFK-IST service is stronger than other opportunities for the 767 - if only seasonal - like South America, Africa, or SEA-Asia.

Lack of [high-yielding] traffic: Istanbul is a beautiful city, but isn't a big draw for American tourists. The primary draw of Istanbul is its mosques, and I daresay the average American will be much comfortable exploring the famed museums, castles, ruins, and monuments of other European cities than stepping foot in holy Islamic sites. For the retail types, the shopping/browsing experience of Champs-Elysees is likely a much more familiar experience than haggling in the congested, chaotic Grand Bazaar! For Turkish citizens, it isn't exactly easy to get any kind of visa to visit the U.S. While the U.S. and Turkey are close political allies, I am not aware of particularly strong business ties between our nations. So, with all that said, I imagine on this sector DL primarily caters to intrepid tourists and VFR traffic, as they probably did/do to Hungary, Ukraine, Greece, Romania, and the Czech Republic...

Gloomy economic prospects: The Turkish economy is heavily linked with that of the E.U., with over half of all imports and exports of Turkey going to/from the E.U. Between that and the high levels of FDI between Turkey and E.U. partners, there is a lot of economic interdependence. Should the situation in the E.U. linger on or god forbid get worse, I would imagine any ramifications would certainly take their toll on Turkey.

Increasingly stiff competition: TK is rapidly improving its product while building tremendous hub connectivity. They also now offer Star Alliance benefits, a big plus to the many UA FFers in the NYC area. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a contingent of fliers that were just more comfortable taking a U.S. airline rather than a Turkish one. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if UA's new EWR-IST flights was the final nail in the coffin here. They have a superior product and stronger hub feed at EWR than DL does at JFK, plus they tie in to partner TK's hub at the IST end...
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
gokmengs
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:02 pm

Wow! This is an interesting thread for sure. I am very much connected to this route as I have close to a million miles on it as I have been flying the route since 98 and I've flown TK couple times to JFK(not on 777W) to be able to compare it.
I was interested in the IST-NYC performance per airline after TK increased frequency, and UA addition.
To be honest I am surprised that people think DL is not doing well on the route because of its product, yes its below TK for sure but compared to UA not so much. Out of my last 4 flights 2 of them had the flat bed in J and it was decent. I wish the route was a flat bed guaranteed route.
DL doesn't have *Alliance support at IST like UA, it still has few loyal customers in the US not a small number. I agree with others that DL doesn't market its flight in IST at all.
This is an old route for DL I hope they will keep it.
Yaşa Mustafa Kemal Paşa Yaşa, Adın Yazılacak Mücevher Taşa
 
leftyboarder
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:04 pm

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 76):

Mostly spot on, except a few points I disagree. First; I wouldn't compare IST with OTP or BUD, by all means much smaller cities in much smaller nations. Secondly, Turkish economy is no longer as tightly linked with EU as before; share of trade with EU has declined steadily and now is around 40%, if not less of all trade. So decline in the European prospects is not as mortal for Turkey as it used to be. Otherwise you make great points.
 
umit
Posts: 55
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:26 pm

Gloomy economic prospects: The Turkish economy is heavily linked with that of the E.U., with over half of all imports and exports of Turkey going to/from the E.U. Between that and the high levels of FDI between Turkey and E.U. partners, there is a lot of economic interdependence. Should the situation in the E.U. linger on or god forbid get worse, I would imagine any ramifications would certainly take their toll on Turkey

Answer :

In Economy wise , if the europe goes in to more trouble that will surely effect the country . But right now biggest problem in Turkey seems to be Current account deficit (close to 8 percent of GNP) . However, this deficit comes mostly from energy and negativities in europe is actually helpingTurkey at that front by reducing energy bill therefore current account deficit . ( so called soft lending ) ..

As far as I know pilots are making not any less then their counterparts in Europe but better then US pilots (average) . FA's on the other hand I suppose their net salaries are about +2000 dolar/month . ( this is what I hear I can be+/- off )
 
tcm
Posts: 304
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:09 pm

Quoting umit (Reply 79):
with over half of all imports and exports of Turkey going to/from the E.U.

As leftyboarder pointed out, the EU accounts for less than half of imports and exports. The trend is declining. Although still important.

See: http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/september/tradoc_113456.pdf

The U.S. is Turkey's fourth largest trade partner.

It seems to me, looking at LAXintl's post, that the higher cost structure, lack of marketing and relative inferior product compared to TK makes it hard for DL to compete effectively.
 
catiii
Posts: 3607
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:22 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 72):
You still fail to get the point.

No, I get the point. The poster made a sweeping absolute statement. He didn't qualify it at all. Details matter, so I called him on it.
 
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jfklganyc
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:25 pm

"DL is not as well positioned at JFK despite their better efforts; they have to get much more originating traffic from JFK that flies only to IST, traffic from IST flying only to JFK and perhaps a few other cities with nonstops from JFK."


That is a ridiculous statement.

They have over 150 flights a day at JFK. Plenty of feed and very well positioned. They can get connectors to every major market in the country.

What is killing DL is the third TK flight and the new UA flight.

They have to decide: fight or flight?

Is it worth defending a market they basically had to themselves for years OR is it a bloodbath that isn't worth fighting in 2012?
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18197
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

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Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting tcm (Reply 73):
People usually underestimate that catering is part of the experience for the regular customer.

Perhaps, but no one is paying more for it.

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 72):
Hence, TK serves hot meal versus AF's cold sandwich/salad or AZ's biscotti.

No one. And I mean no one, is buying a TK ticket based on the meal they serve. And this is from someone who goes out of their way to fly TK.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 82):
What is killing DL is the third TK flight and the new UA flight.

   You mean it isn't the Y pasta meal?? 
I don't take responsibility at all
 
tcm
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:20 am

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:45 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 83):
No one. And I mean no one, is buying a TK ticket based on the meal they serve. And this is from someone who goes out of their way to fly TK.

The inflight meal is certainly not the only consideration, but, whether you like it or not, it does influence the purchasing behaviour of many. Especially in Turkey. I see and hear it everyday.
 
panamair
Posts: 4340
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:53 pm

Yup, looks like it's going seasonal. DL just loaded the change, last JFK-IST this year is on Nov 17, last IST-JFK will be on Nov 18. Flight will resume March 30, 2013.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4514
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:10 pm

Delta has just announced seasonal servive to IST.
So Much for the naysayers who coming up with reasons for the Delta suspension of service,or cancelation of service If Delta cannot make money during the winter months to IST, they ought to be congratulated I believe that Delta is currently the worlds most profitable airline including TK
 
icarus75
Posts: 751
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:18 am

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:14 pm

Quoting burj (Reply 65):
Um....which airports (major hubs) are worse for transiting than CDG? You just have to compare CDG to AMS to see the night and day difference.
Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 67):
I agree, CDG must be the world's worst airport to connect through. I hate going there (was just through there last month). From all my travels, I have yet to find a worse airport...

I've been several times to US with connections in many airports.
I've had bad or very bad experiences in ORD, ATL, CVG and the worse DFW!
Flying is amazing!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18197
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Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting tcm (Reply 84):
The inflight meal is certainly not the only consideration, but, whether you like it or not, it does influence the purchasing behaviour of many. Especially in Turkey. I see and hear it everyday.

People in Turkey choose TK? Must be the meals.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
tcm
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:20 am

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 88):
People in Turkey choose TK? Must be the meals.

They could be flying DL 
 
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mixalakhs
Posts: 48
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:48 pm

[quote=MaverickM11,reply=66][/

For me it is LHR.
 
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mixalakhs
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:06 am

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting burj (Reply 65):

Sorry for my previous post I made a mistake.
LHR for me it is the worse airport to connect a flight.
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24692
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Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 76):
Istanbul is a beautiful city, but isn't a big draw for American tourists.

Somehow 757,000 managed to visited in 2011.

Turkey might not be as a mainstream destination such as a UK or Germany for US citizens, but arrivals from the US continue to rise every year even in the midst of the US economic malaise.
Of particular interest and as a trend setter, the country has become a the "in thing" for many American celebrities and notables along with tons of US corporate incentive travel and conference events taking place in Turkey

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 76):
While the U.S. and Turkey are close political allies, I am not aware of particularly strong business ties between our nations.

While maybe from the US point of view things might not seem as big a trade partner, from Turkey's vantage point trade with America is huge being the 4th largest trade partner.

Such commerce and economic activity surely produces some airline travel and cargo flow.

Quoting panamair (Reply 85):
Yup, looks like it's going seasonal. DL just loaded the change, last JFK-IST this year is on Nov 17, last IST-JFK will be on Nov 18. Flight will resume March 30, 2013.

Thanks for the confirmation.

Sounds like this was a rather last minute change by DL. In comparison the other seasonal stuff like Athens drop, reduction in Rome, etc were all loaded months ago.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
fpetrutiu
Posts: 741
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 68):
I wonder if DL/RO could offer a low cost product over OTP via a joint venture; if, for example, one flew ATL-OTP-VIE instead of ATL-CDG-VIE, would a ticket that was consistently $200 less be enough to persuade people to fly over OTP?

That would never work. There is more chance for a JFK/ATL to OTP to KIV/LCA/RUH/BEY/DAM. I know some are served by AF/KLM but like KIV/LCA are not. TLV is also another possibility althoug it is served well by SkyTeam, but would give more options though an easier to connect through airport.

Not to mention IST in the off-season and SOF

[Edited 2012-07-24 11:23:34]
Florin
Orlando, FL
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 92):
Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 76):
Istanbul is a beautiful city, but isn't a big draw for American tourists.

Somehow 757,000 managed to visited in 2011.

Is that number strictly tourists, or does include all visitors? If the latter, I would excpect a significant number are VFR, possibly a larger component than tourists.
 
tommy767
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:18 pm

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 85):
Yup, looks like it's going seasonal. DL just loaded the change, last JFK-IST this year is on Nov 17, last IST-JFK will be on Nov 18. Flight will resume March 30, 2013.

Whoo. Just as predicted.

95 replies later, let's give another round of applause for another fine BS a.net rumor.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18197
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 95):
95 replies later, let's give another round of applause for another fine BS a.net rumor.

Seems pretty on target to me   DL is suspending it seasonally, and it's not unheard of for a route to go "seasonal" and then never return
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24692
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:58 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 94):
Is that number strictly tourists, or does include all visitors? If the latter, I would excpect a significant number are VFR, possibly a larger component than tourists.

Its part of border statistics reporting US citizens tourist arrivals in 2011 per the Turkish Ministry of Culture & Tourism.
I believe they verify the reason of visit by the landing card people fill out, and type of visa issued. Keep in mind Turkey gets over 30mil tourist a year, so Americans while large, still barely make the top-10 list at spot #10.

Also for info, VFR links between Turkey and US are no where close to the level of Europe. Matter of fact Turkish population in the US is rather insignificant. Anyhow Turkish nationals would be travelling on a Turkish passport most likely anyways to avoid the Visa fee and time.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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mercure1
Posts: 4837
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

RE: Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:22 pm

I wonder in the long run if airline networks will continue to shed many such non-alliance partner destination routes.

Now Turkey-USA nonstop is 100% left in hands of Star Alliance. Almost similar in Scandinavia. Other markets like Germany or France can be difficult for outside non-home partner airlines as well.

Interesting developments. I think more and more alliances will cause carrier to focus on their home strengths, and avoid many smaller markets.
For instance in Delta case, they can more economically reach vast parts of Europe by feeding AMS and CDG. No need to risk flying own DL plane when your JV partner already has established service.
mercure f-wtcc
 
tommy767
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:18 pm

RE: Delta Suspend IST Operations

Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:25 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 96):

Many of the JFK-Europe flights go seasonal for Delta -- especially since last year when fuel spiked again. This is typical, and rather smart.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA

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