Fokker F120?

PC12Fan · Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:44 pm

Was killing some time browsing and when I ventured onto the rekkof site, I came upon this:

http://www.rekkof.nl/

Guess the 100 and 70 are off the table?

Trucker · Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:26 pm

120 seats but didn't see any toilets or galleys. And nothing said about pitch. Me thinks more like 105-110 seats. Alot of competition at that size. Don't see this going anywhere.

PlymSpotter · Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:42 pm

I had a chat with them at Farnborough a few weeks ago. The stretch took me by surprise, apparently it was only finalised recently.

Quoting Trucker (Reply 1):
120 seats but didn't see any toilets or galleys. And nothing said about pitch. Me thinks more like 105-110 seats.

No, as the name suggests, the 120 would be a stretch with baseline seating for 120 pax plus galleys etc... The F100 can seat up to 122 pax, so the 120 would definitely be a 120-140 seat aircraft.

Quoting Trucker (Reply 1):
Alot of competition at that size. Don't see this going anywhere.

The only real competition is the C Series, the stretch is a good move in my opinion to lift them out of the dogfight for the 70-100 seat market. The original F100 is still pretty much the lightest aircraft in its class, much lighter than an E-190. If they can hold onto that weight advantage then the F120NG with GTFs and a brand new wing has the potential to be a seriously able aircraft.

Will watch with interest.

Dan

[Edited 2012-07-27 11:49:14]

PC12Fan · Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 2):
Quoting Trucker (Reply 1):
120 seats but didn't see any toilets or galleys. And nothing said about pitch. Me thinks more like 105-110 seats.

No, as the name suggests, the 120 would be a stretch with baseline seating for 120 pax plus galleys etc...

They're there, it's just the "cut away" view still has them blocked out. You can kinda see the rear lavs/galleys if you look closer.

Still like to know if the 70 variant is no longer being studied though.

PlymSpotter · Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 3):
Still like to know if the 70 variant is no longer being studied though.

The 70 and 100 have both apparently been dropped in favor of the 120.

Dan

NWAROOSTER · Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:49 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):

The 70 and 100 have both apparently been dropped in favor of the 120.

Will the Fokker F120 have leading edge slats? Both the F70 and the F100 do not. Many pilots do not like the lack of leading edge slats.

[Edited 2012-07-27 18:50:28]

BestWestern · Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:58 am

How serious is this relaunch?

F9Animal · Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:00 am

I would love to see them come back!

BestWestern · Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:52 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 6):
Will the Fokker F120 have leading edge slats?

Please explain what Leading Edge slats are for...

Oykie · Sat Jul 28, 2012 8:57 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 2):
If they can hold onto that weight advantage then the F120NG with GTFs and a brand new wing has the potential to be a seriously able aircraft.

I was surprised by this move my self. The GTF is a good call in my opinion. The company behind Next Generation Aircraft is a strong company. It should be competitive on short haul routes compared to the E-jet and CSeries.

ghifty · Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:03 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 9):
Please explain what Leading Edge slats are for...

Allows an aircraft to increase it's angle of attack, thus allowing lower approach speeds.

DrColenzo · Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:37 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):

How serious is this relaunch?

This is my main question, too.

I can see the logic of using an existing, although out-of-production for the past 16 years, airframe and updating it with 21st century technology if only to produce a model cheaper to develop than a more modern, clean sheet design.

However, the big thing is the overall Total Factor Productivity (TFP) for the manufacturer, (i.e. is it cheaper to produce and therefore sell at a profit in comparison to other models) and the for the airline (i.e. will it be cheaper to purchase and run than a competitor aircraft).

I'm sceptical, to be honest but I would love to be proven wrong.

Semaex · Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:41 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 9):

Please explain what Leading Edge slats are for...

Quoting ghifty (Reply 11):

Allows an aircraft to increase it's angle of attack, thus allowing lower approach speeds.

... and in some aircraft are part of the flight envelope protection system, so that when a critical AOA is approached, automatic slat extension is initiated.

DrColenzo · Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:32 pm

Surely addin in the slats would increase the development costs?

LifelinerOne · Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:34 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 6):
How serious is this relaunch?

They have been granted a loan by the Dutch Government last year and are currently refitting the old Fokker 100 prototype (PH-MKH) to NG-standards at Woensdrecht Air Base. So, there is some movement, although slow. The change to the F120 is very recently after new market research. The F70 is not out of the window, but will probably follow the F120.

Cheers!

PC12Fan · Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:58 pm

Looks as though the F120 is only about two feet longer than the F100. Guess they just did some tweaking of the F100NG with a rebranding. If the F70 goes through the same thing, wonder if it will be renamed the F80?

Semaex · Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 13):
Surely addin in the slats would increase the development costs?

Most definitely, but it's rather a small investment compared to other systems which would give the aircraft better stall and slow flight characteristics. After all, it's just a bent surface that extends from the leading edge of the wings. Quite a simple tool, yet very effective.

queb · Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:08 pm

Lengthening the fuselage by 2 feets will not allow 20 additional passengers with the same comfort. And Rekkof will not have the billion dollars needed to launch this aircraft.

Oykie · Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:14 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 15):
Looks as though the F120 is only about two feet longer than the F100. Guess they just did some tweaking of the F100NG with a rebranding. If the F70 goes through the same thing, wonder if it will be renamed the F80?

Good thinking. Maybe they will even call it an F90 to get it as close to 100 passengers as possible without exceeding it? There would be 30 seats between a 90 seat F90 and a 120 seat F120. Just like the old F70 and F100.

a318 · Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting Trucker (Reply 1):
120 seats but didn't see any toilets or galleys

Click the 'service areas' link under the 'cabin' drop down menu. Seek and you shall find!

Trucker · Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:21 pm

OK, I'll concede the 120 seats. But with 120 seats that brings it into competition with both the 319 and 7NG, each of which have 130 some seats. And there'll be a new version of each of those planes at some point. And the E195 is in the 110-120 seat range. So along with the CS300 that's alot of competition. Given that the CS300 is struggling for orders(IMO) I don't see this F120 ever happening. It kind of reminds me of the 717 and that didn't work very well.

ebj1248650 · Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting Trucker (Reply 20):
But with 120 seats that brings it into competition with both the 319 and 7NG, each of which have 130 some seats. And there'll be a new version of each of those planes at some point. And the E195 is in the 110-120 seat range. So along with the CS300 that's alot of competition. Given that the CS300 is struggling for orders(IMO) I don't see this F120 ever happening.

What will the F120 have to offer that the competition can't match?

PlymSpotter · Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 5):
Will the Fokker F120 have leading edge slats? Both the F70 and the F100 do not. Many pilots do not like the lack of leading edge slats.

Pass, but it apparently has a completely new wing - so they may have gone down this route.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 6):
How serious is this relaunch?

Very, that much is evident.

Quoting oykie (Reply 9):
I was surprised by this move my self. The GTF is a good call in my opinion. The company behind Next Generation Aircraft is a strong company. It should be competitive on short haul routes compared to the E-jet and CSeries.

To me the GTF is essential, otherwise they would have been a generation behind their competition.

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 13):
Surely addin in the slats would increase the development costs?

As they are already redesigning the wing, perhaps not.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 15):
Looks as though the F120 is only about two feet longer than the F100. Guess they just did some tweaking of the F100NG with a rebranding.

Bit more than tweaking, but the short extra length is interesting.

Quoting queb (Reply 17):

Lengthening the fuselage by 2 feets will not allow 20 additional passengers with the same comfort.

I think, on any aircraft, that depends on the seats themselves. If you look at how much less space the newer generation of seats take up compared to the chunky seats on current Fokkers, then I can easily see how they can accommodate the extra seats with the same legroom.

Quoting queb (Reply 17):
And Rekkof will not have the billion dollars needed to launch this aircraft.

if it's an investable project then that won't be an issue.

Quoting Trucker (Reply 20):
OK, I'll concede the 120 seats. But with 120 seats that brings it into competition with both the 319 and 7NG, each of which have 130 some seats. And there'll be a new version of each of those planes at some point. And the E195 is in the 110-120 seat range. So along with the CS300 that's alot of competition

The OEW of a F100 is 16 tonnes lighter than that of an A319 and 13 tonnes lighter than a 73G. Yes the stretch will make the F120 heavier, but I don't see the next generation of the 319 and 73G significantly closing this gap. So whilst they share a similar seat capacity they are very different aircraft appealing to different markets, and competition where it does exist seems to be quite a one way street with the larger RJs taking market share from Airbus and Boeing.

Quoting Trucker (Reply 20):
Given that the CS300 is struggling for orders(IMO)

No doubt it's not as rosy as Bombardier hoped, but I think that is more a reflection of the project's background, with airlines being reluctant to commit second time around, especially whilst it's still a paper plane. Still the CS300 has 72 orders and something like 40 options compared to the A319NEO's 26 firm and zero commitments/options, which says a lot. I don't know how many the 73G MAX has though?

Dan

queb · Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:31 pm

The F120 will be a E195, CS100, 736, A318, 717 size aircraft. The F100 cabin length is 1,5 m (5 feets) shorter than CS100. A 2 feets stretch will not change the capacity (maybe one more row). Slimmer seats is not a real advantage, since they can be fitted in every aircraft.

[Edited 2012-07-28 09:39:02]

queb · Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 22):
I don't know how many the 73G MAX has though?

Zero

Burkhard · Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:38 pm

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 11):
I'm sceptical, to be honest but I would love to be proven wrong.

With this sentense most here can agree! I still love the F70 - when it approaches over my home it is 9 db more silent than a 737/A320. OK, it is lighter, that might explain 3db, but the other 6 just are the excellence of this design.

PlymSpotter · Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 24):
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 22):
I don't know how many the 73G MAX has though?

Zero

That surprises me, I thought they would at least have some on the books.

Dan

LifelinerOne · Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:39 am

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 21):
What will the F120 have to offer that the competition can't match?

A very light frame.

Cheers!

DrColenzo · Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:40 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 14):
They have been granted a loan by the Dutch Government last year and are currently refitting the old Fokker 100 prototype (PH-MKH) to NG-standards at Woensdrecht

So a little government money has arranged for a rather old jet to be updated. That is a long way from a full commercial product and production like, a very long way indeed. I wish Rekkof luck, but this is all on a scale logarithmically smaller than the C-Series, MRJ or even he re-jiggled DC-9 that is the ARJ21, the aircraft most closely analogous to the F-100NG.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 27):
A very light frame.

Okay, but how much does it cost to build in relation to more modern designs? I am just thinking that it might lighter but cost more to build than modern frames designed on computer. Not an issue for the ARJ21/ DC-9 because of cheap labour in China, but in the Netherlands? Rekkof will need to seriously consider some way of moving part of the production, at least, to cheaper areas.

PlymSpotter · Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:23 am

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 28):
Rekkof will need to seriously consider some way of moving part of the production, at least, to cheaper areas.

IIRC they announced a long time ago that at least some of the aircraft would be manufactured in Brazil.

Dan

petertenthije · Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:44 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 29):
IIRC they announced a long time ago that at least some of the aircraft would be manufactured in Brazil.

They started construction of a new Brazil plant last year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fiXwVrKbmE

EPA001 · Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:47 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 29):
that at least some of the aircraft would be manufactured in Brazi

I guess you mean "some parts of the aircraft would be manufactured in Brazil". That is indeed the intention. I am not sure though how far progressed the plans are.

PlymSpotter · Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:53 am

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 31):
I guess you mean "some parts of the aircraft would be manufactured in Brazil".

Yes, that is what I said. I have not heard anything about where final assembly would be.

Dan

KarelXWB · Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:01 am

Final assembly is currently planned in Holland.

http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?p=536911#p536911

DrColenzo · Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:48 am

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 30):
They started construction of a new Brazil plant last year.

But Embraer already build a more technologically advanced competitor in Brazil that is designed for construction methods 30 years at the very least in advance of those on the F-70/100, negating any cost advantage at the competition is already made in that country for the same price at a higher spec. Also, Brazil is becoming a middle income nation, increasing labour costs further.

I would recommend India. Jaguar motors is based in the same town as the university I teach at and I have seen wonders done by the parent company TATA, particularly in terms of productivity, design and profitability improvements. They also pump a lot of money into our university and department.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 33):

Final assembly is currently planned in Holland.

Yes, that has been muted but we have to ask ourselves; why did Fokker go under in the first place? I suspect firstly that the proposed sites would require development (although I am a huge fan of Lelystad and Flevoland and think that if they did develop the airport there it would be great for the province) and huge development costs in an expensive location.

Looking at the proposal with a cold, analytical eye I think it has distinctive merits and relaunching a model F-170/100 could be done. However, I will state categorically right now that it will have to be made somewhere like India and not Brazil and will have to use as much off-the-shelf technology in terms of avionics, engines et cetera to reduce development costs and increase the likelihood the aircraft will be economically viable.

Which, uncharacteristically for someone as cold hearted as I, is something I want to see happen as I really quite enjoy using Fokkers, much more than the E-190 for example.

PlymSpotter · Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:51 am

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 34):
But Embraer already build a more technologically advanced competitor in Brazil that is designed for construction methods 30 years at the very least in advance of those on the F-70/100,

I see where you are coming from, but I don't agree that the ERJ family is necessarily more technologically advanced. With the F120 being reasonably undefined at a detailed level a fair comparison can't be made, but so far the indications are that they will stick with what works well, wise in my opinion, and upgrade everything else. Yes the ERJ will most likely have a more advanced construction process, but it's also significantly heavier so I'd further question whether the design is actually more advanced. Really, until you can sit down with a full spec sheet and compare the aircraft with competitors it's not possible to know.

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 34):
However, I will state categorically right now that it will have to be made somewhere like India and not Brazil and will have to use as much off-the-shelf technology in terms of avionics, engines et cetera to reduce development costs and increase the likelihood the aircraft will be economically viable.

IIRC there was an Indian company looking to invest in the project (creating an assembly plant) a few years ago, but that fell through when it was confirmed that the F100 would need to be assembled in the EU/NL to retain grandfathered rights on the design. Regardless, I don't share the view that it needs to be produced in a country such as India.

Dan

Burkhard · Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:04 pm

I also doubt the benefits of the new computerized production methods - the two models most advanced on this direction by A and B have not proven this to be a success story.

queb · Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:43 pm

The 2 feets stretch must be to offset the increased weight of engines.

The real problem of Rekkof is to find investors for at least a billion dollars and I don't think anyone is crazy enough to invest in a risky project with so many competitions (Cseries, E-Jet, CRJ1000, Superjet 100, MRJ).

If you can read french, check this interview with Henry Marsman and Willem van Breda of Rekkof at Farnborough 2012 about the F-120NG:

http://www.aeroweb-fr.net/actualites...e-un-fokker-de-nouvelle-generation

PlymSpotter · Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 37):
The real problem of Rekkof is to find investors for at least a billion dollars and I don't think anyone is crazy enough to invest in a risky project with so many competitions (Cseries, E-Jet, CRJ1000, Superjet 100, MRJ).

But what if the product NG have is better than all of them - that changes things massively and doesn't appear to be an unrealistic outcome of this development. It's safe to say that a F120 would be lighter than an ERJ 190/195, comparable to the smaller SSJ-100 and not much heavier than the again smaller CRK and MRJ. Those size gaps can't be ignored either; I would not class the CRK, MRJ or SSJ as competitors - they all carry significantly fewer passengers than even the original F100.

The only true competitor I see here is the C Series, which makes me wonder if Bombardier are now regretting not purchasing Fokker back when they had the opportunity.

Dan

queb · Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:45 pm

F120NG will have the range and the speed of a regional jet so it must be compare with regional jet even if they are smaller (CRJ1000, E-190/195, SSJ100, MRJ etc). It's not a secret that Mitsubishi and Sukhoi will eventually offer stretched versions of their aircraft.

And if you want to be fair, you should also compare the F120NG with the E-Jet G2 which will be operational at the same time.

[Edited 2012-07-29 06:51:20]

Trucker · Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:56 pm

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 34):
I really quite enjoy using Fokkers, much more than the E-190 for example.

I gotta ask why on this. I think most people would prefer the 190. Aren't F100 seats only 17" wide vs. 18" on the Ejets. And then there's the middle seat on the Fokker.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 27):
A very light frame.

Seems to me new planes always end up a little heavier once they're built than they were on the drawing board. Might not end up a huge advantage.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 14):
They have been granted a loan by the Dutch Government

So I doubt the Dutch Goverment would be too thrilled to see alot of the plane built in Brazil or India. There must have been some sort of understanding that most of the work would be done in Holland.

queb · Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:59 pm

From Reffof website about F120NG performance :

Mach 0,74 ??????

PlymSpotter · Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:44 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 39):

F120NG will have the range and the speed of a regional jet so it must be compare with regional jet even if they are smaller (CRJ1000, E-190/195, SSJ100, MRJ etc).

Compared against perhaps, but in general I would not say they will directly compete. The F120 would have a quarter to third more seats than some of those types, to me that is quite a different market, especially considering the various union 'rules' covering -/+ 100 seaters at many airlines. The only way I could see there being competition is if the F120 really did offer the same trip costs as a 70-90 seat jet.

Quoting queb (Reply 39):
It's not a secret that Mitsubishi and Sukhoi will eventually offer stretched versions of their aircraft.

And if you want to be fair, you should also compare the F120NG with the E-Jet G2 which will be operational at the same time.

As and when details are revealed that can be done, right now they are theoretical planes with no firm details. Whilst the ERJ 'NG' is certain to go ahead, I don't feel the same can be said for the SSJ or MRJ, yet. Much as I'd love to see them both appear at some point.

Quoting queb (Reply 41):
From Reffof website about F120NG performance :

Details I have suggest .74 is LRC, .77 standard and a MRO of .79.

Dan

DrColenzo · Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting Trucker (Reply 40):
Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 34):
I really quite enjoy using Fokkers, much more than the E-190 for example.

I gotta ask why on this. I think most people would prefer the 190. Aren't F100 seats only 17" wide vs. 18" on the Ejets. And then there's the middle seat on the Fokker.

In all honesty? I tend to feel the flight more on an E-Jet than a Fokker, which is a known quality of the E-Jet and newer models developed with Computational Fluid Dynamics and have advanced automated fly by wire controls. However, wouldn't be an issue for me if hydrotherapy in a filthy pool didn't bust out my inner ear (I was there for a fractured spine, talk about double bad luck) but I have read about others on this issue.

Tough, it is the price of reduced full consumption and efficiency on a modern jet. The F-100 just feels sturdy and does it job, I appreciate that.

queb · Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 42):
Details I have suggest .74 is LRC, .77 standard and a MRO of .79.

Standard LRC for this size aircraft is .78 (Cseries, CRJ, E-jet, SSJ, MRJ etc) and maximum speed is about .82/.83

aerokiwi · Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:15 pm

Oh look, another Rekkof thread.

Won't happen. Cue someone with a dutch flag next to their name telling me the design stages are "very advanced' with "customers interested".

neutrino · Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:44 pm

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 14):
They have been granted a loan by the Dutch Government last year...

How much is the amount granted/promised?
I could not recall the figure but in the back of my atrophying mind it was just a tiny fraction of the at least $1B (likely much much more) needed to get the actual aircraft to the serial production stage. Will the govt pump in more in due course?

JoeCanuck · Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:00 pm

I'm not sure where their supposedly huge advantages will come from. They are claiming a 3000kg weight advantage over the E jets but they are doing significant work...which usually means more weight than predicted. The GTF's will be significantly heavier than the Tays, and a new wing isn't cheap or easy.

Their range chart seems odd to me...they claim 100nm diversion but I thought that flight planning had to include 2 alternates.

Still, good luck to them. Seems to me like a very long shot but they only need one customer to get the ball rolling.

DrColenzo · Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:05 pm

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 45):

Oh look, another Rekkof thread.

Won't happen. Cue someone with a dutch flag next to their name telling me the design stages are "very advanced' with "customers interested".

There are less harsh ways of saying this....however, you do have a point.

Quoting neutrino (Reply 46):
How much is the amount granted/promised?
I could not recall the figure but in the back of my atrophying mind it was just a tiny fraction of the at least $1B (likely much much more) needed to get the actual aircraft to the serial production stage. Will the govt pump in more in due course?

I read $20 million dollars to update the original F-100 prototype, but I agree, this project requires a billion or so to be viable. Additionally, I very much doubt updating existing airframes would be an option for airlines and sounds a little Nimrod MRA4 to me.

PlymSpotter · Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:30 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 44):
Standard LRC for this size aircraft is .78 (Cseries, CRJ, E-jet, SSJ, MRJ etc) and maximum speed is about .82/.83

The speed is lower indeed. But I am intrigued as to why you consider that the F120NG would be the same size as some of the others you list? I agree regarding the C Series and the ERJ 195 (as a true competitor only in the future, as an NG version), but presuming the stretch allows just one extra row of seats the F120 would be 24 seats/23% larger than the SSJ and 35 seats/38% larger than the MRJ. Range/speed is irrelevant to such a huge difference at this end of the capacity scale.

Quoting DrColenzo (Reply 48):
I read $20 million dollars to update the original F-100 prototype, but I agree, this project requires a billion or so to be viable.

I'm not so sure, that seems a little steep for (re)developing one aircraft, considering their starting point. Figures I have heard indicate around half that amount/€400m, including a production line. IIRC they already own the toolings and much of the equipment needed to restart production, which is a major cost negated.

Dan

[Edited 2012-07-29 11:33:16]

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