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NWAESC
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 55):
That would be ok, if on day one, you instantly KNEW which process was best.

I don't think you need to know "instantly." That's ostensibly what people from both sides should've been brought together to sort out, especially during the window when we were running separate operations & systems...

Quote:
Now, I KNOW you think that everything you did was better...

Negative. This has nothing to do with bias, and everything to do with things like functionality & operational efficiency.

For the record, I happen to really like using ALIS, which debunks your theory. So there.  
Quote:
NW's & DL's methods may be different and some MAY even be better, but I'd be willing to bet that most of this is just because the processes are different than you're used to and nothing more.

There will always be a tendency to prefer what one knows vs. an alternative. I had assumed that was a given when I first chimed in, and set it aside.
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:27 pm

because DL was (and is) mostly non-union....
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:33 pm

As others before me have said... the vast majority of comments on this forum are opinion from armchair CEOs. I wouldn't go as far as saying the CO/UA merger has been a "disaster"... disaster is a big word. There's certainly been bumps in the road, and there has been things that they should have handled better (GDS migration as an example).

GDS is a big hurdle since it's such a complicated process, and while we don't know what their planning was, they should have planned and tested more prior to the official migration. As someone who works on complex enterprise IT systems every day, the value of a robust testing plan prior to the migration is hugely important, and it just seems as if they either didn't test effectively, or made serious mistakes during the official move.

These threads really frustrate me; there will be another one next week, one the week after that... they just keep coming. They're almost as bad as the "I hate the new livery" comments that get put on every photo on the UA Facebook page. People have "their airline"... we all have a preference, and we all see good and bad things differently. I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of legacy CO frequent fliers had a passionate hatred for UA (I know I did), and most of the legacy UA frequent fliers had a passionate hatred for CO. The biggest issue with the merger has been the (dare I call it "alienation") of the frequent flyer group, and the lack of consistent procedures. None of us like the new status structure (my silver status really counts for nothing), and a good chunk of the issues during the GDS migration effected frequent fliers more than most.

All that said, I'm excited to see what happens in the next 12-18 months, and while many are saying they're going to jump ship for another airline, I plan to give UA 12-18 months to really get their stuff together. If they can standardize the products, continue to innovate, and provide the level of service we saw before the merger, then they'll have my business for years. The new UA "should" be in a much better position both operationally and financially than the two pre-merger airlines, but these things take time, and it's far, far too soon to write the final chapter in the "was the merger successful" book.
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 54):
Of course, you're speaking in the present tense, and I'm speaking in the past tense. I stopped flying NWA during the 2005 strike and have since become a United 1-K. Because of that, I personally have nothng invested defending either DL or NW.

So you have no idea what transpired between 2005 and the merger.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 60):

For the record, I happen to really like using ALIS, which debunks your theory. So there.

Well, I suppose it does........I don't even know what ALIS is, so I can hardly argue about it.   Many processes have changed or improved since I retired in '05........hopefully for the better. I have no illusions about DL's processes, specifically in the IT arena.......they've been trying for years to come up with a better res system......ask any longtime DL res agent about "Magellan" and I'm sure you'll get an earful, all of it bad.
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:19 am

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 2):
They couldn't turn a profit and they were quickly headed for Chapter 7.

Uh..where did you get this HORRIBLY inaccurate piece of information?
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:35 am

Quoting johns624 (Reply 41):
Things are never perfect, but they both agree that things went quite smoothly.


I wouldn't call the union/non-union rift between NW and DL cabin crew smooth. On the RARE occasion where a NW F/A would end up with a DL crew, it wasn't pretty
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:34 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):

Wow! This statement is rediculous. Ask anyone who worked at Northwest and youll find out that Northwest bought Delta w Northwest money and then remained Delta. I think most NW employees had been through so much with the previous company and the hope was actually that from NW employee side, Delta employees seemed to be happier and paid more so they remained positive and worked their ass off as they always had at NW. Unfortunately, atleast on the Ground Service/Gate level the synchronization of wages didnt happen until last year and with no retro pay. The airline is now non-union so everyone knows you cant bitch about it, and the industry is so squirrely im sure everyone is happy to have jobs and now be paid 'relatively' well. Delta is great today but it is Northwest w a Delta cape on.
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:14 am

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 67):

Well, I'm sure that's what the folks at NW would like to think........however, there's enough DL people left that are in charge to make that story a little doubtful. Whatever it is, there's no way to prove it and the Big Widget still flies over the HQ in ATL. These theories are always so interesting...........being so proud, you'd think that the airline would have remained NW and not DL, but it didn't. Why not? Possibly because DL was the surviving carrier.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:32 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 68):

Delta survived because it was the non-union carrier..i dont think its anything to do with proud, all the NW people you just disrespected have intelligience too my friend
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:49 am

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 67):

If I switched the usage of DL to NW would it be correct then?

The point is, the company, no matter what company, industry, country, etc..., that approaches another company and states "it is what it is and this is going to happen, and little, to nothing, else"; that merger is going to be smoother than one that is of "equals" because there is way too much give-or-take in the later.

I didn't follow the DL/NW merger as closely as I did the CO/UA merger because the later had a much larger potential to affect me personally. Also, I was 15 when the DL/NW merger took place, so to the eyes of a 15 year old high school sophomore, DL came and told NW what's up.

[Edited 2012-07-28 19:55:51]
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BestWestern
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:49 am

Wow - This is a really interesting read, and thanks for all the mature comments.... I've picked some words as I've gone along to give an outsiders perspective.

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 53):
Culture

The company culture is so key to a successful merger. In my outside opinion, DLNW became DL quite quickly - whilst within UA, there is very much two staff units still. The longer this continues, the harder it is to change.

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 56):
the "brand" is CO with the United name

I think this was a major major mistake from day one. DLNW went with a whole new fresh brand that is modern and contemporary. The new DL also refreshed the fleet and customer service levels remarkably quickly - with customer friendly things like Flatbeds, AVOD, WIFI, and SkyPriority. These small but customer friendly changes gave DL an early win with the passenegrs - "this is the new Delta". The NW livery was the best globally, but still DLNW saw the need for something new.

The United - Continental 'brand' looks confused. It also keeps the CO brand in peoples brains. I saw a few UA pilots in a hotel the other night, and they still had the old UA brand security lanyards.... The cabin crew uniforms were really tired looking and lacking shape. Perhaps because the UA/CO merger was later, I havent seen many customer quick win changes, execept for the 757 flat beds. UACO should have gone for a totally new look with the united brand.

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 67):
worked their ass off as they always had

Interesting comment - The Old CO brand slogan was 'work hard, play right' - which summed up the CO attitude.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 42):
the state of many sUA aircraft in terms of deferred maintenance etc. Post merger, UA announced refurbishments to its 319/320's, brought in their 757's for catch up maintenance and have dealt with issues with dispatch reliability across both fleets.



Perhaps UA started in a worse position in comaprison to DL/NW?
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nws2002
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:25 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 57):
If this is all true, maybe CO wasn't as perfect as everyone makes them out to be.

As a sCO employee I will say that is true. We were not perfect, but we had employees who cared (most of the time) and made the best of what we had to deal with. One example is irops, which frankly CO sucked at but as a smaller airline was able to deal with. When you expand that same faulty program to an airline the size of the new UA you will see big problems.

There was also a huge culture shift at CO that occured before the merger with UA. When Kellner left and Smisek took over a lot of things changed. Some would even say the culture began going downhill when Kellner took over from Bethune. As more legacy services were removed employees became frustrated and were no longer proud of the airline.

So take a declining sCO culture and merge it with the sUA culture and today you see how employees feel about the new UA. As an employee I am tired of hearing about the fantasy of merger success. As a company we need to lose the talking points and acknowledge our issues. In short I think Smisek needs to be replaced with someone the employees can rally behind.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 69):

Delta survived because it was the non-union carrier..i dont think its anything to do with proud, all the NW people you just disrespected have intelligience too my friend

You want to tell me where I disrespected the NW employees any more than I saw DL and its employees disrespected on here, every day during the representation elections. So many times there were implications that DL employees were stupid and that the DL "family" culture was bogus. All I could do was shake my head, BUT, if you look it up, there were any number of times where I admonished the DL employees that they had better learn to work together or this thing would never work.

BTW, I also never said that the NW people weren't intelligent. You seem to be very skilled at putting words in my mouth.  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:34 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 61):
The new DL also refreshed the fleet and customer service levels remarkably quickly - with customer friendly things like Flatbeds, AVOD, WIFI, and SkyPriority. These small but customer friendly changes gave DL an early win with the passenegrs - "this is the new Delta".

It seems to me the things you characterized as "small" are pretty expensive, yet it also seems to me the UA/CO merger is being run in a penny wise, dollar foolish fashion.

From the outside looking in, it seems the UA/CO management didn't try to fix anything as they did the integration, they just took things as-is or did as little change as possible to meet the minimum standard required.

The new livery is indeed a prime example: it's anything but refreshing. It looks like what you'd get if you asked a child to come up with a merged livery.
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BestWestern
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:02 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
the things you characterized as "small" are pretty expensive

Yes, but the customer sees the improvement in the business, and gave the impression that the new "delta" was better than the old Delta.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
The new livery is indeed a prime example: it's anything but refreshing.

It gave the staff nothing to rally around - and reminds the CO staff that they are 'still' CO. This was a big mistake. The new DL livery was a total re-start for both airlines.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
It looks like what you'd get if you asked a child to come up with a merged livery.

Or thirty seconds on photoshop. From an external perspective, the 757 that still lands all over Europe still looks like Continental. If it looks like a duck.... quacks like a duck.....
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:18 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 65):
Yes, but the customer sees the improvement in the business, and gave the impression that the new "delta" was better than the old Delta.

I agree. Unfortunately the UA/CO management seems to have gone into it with the notion of spending the least possible. I suspect their focus was/is on the short term bottom line, not in creating a great product. But as IIRC it was Bethune who said something along the lines of "if you make the pizza so cheap, no one will eat it". Seems UA/CO thinks their customer base will eat some pretty bad pizza, or they just don't seem to notice how bad the pizza is. At the least, it would have been a good idea to come out with some new artwork on the pizza boxes, but it seems they don't see the need.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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BestWestern
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:29 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
Unfortunately the UA/CO management seems to have gone into it with the notion of spending the least possible.

Maybe what the new United needs is a quick win - perhaps this is the 787 - although that will only be seen by a fraction of the customer base. DL's high proportion of fleet rollout of Wifi is something United needs to emulate to give the customers something to notice, alongside something like the relaunch of 'sky priority'...
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:29 am

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 59):

Delta survived because it was the non-union carrier..i dont think its anything to do with proud, all the NW people you just disrespected have intelligience too my friend

what? What does Delta being non-union have to do with anything? I guess i missed the law that says the airline name depends on what unions it has.....
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:14 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 68):
What does Delta being non-union have to do with anything? I guess i missed the law that says the airline name depends on what unions it has.....

I agree. It's more about the relationship between management and labor in general rather than if labor is represented by a union or not. There are ways to achieve good relationships between management and union labor, but most management seems to let themselves get sucked into the "us versus them" type of relationship.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:28 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 69):
I agree. It's more about the relationship between management and labor in general rather than if labor is represented by a union or not. There are ways to achieve good relationships between management and union labor, but most management seems to let themselves get sucked into the "us versus them" type of relationship.

And the name of the airline has nothing to do with said relationship.

and the perfect example of what not to do is American. Never seen a management team do such a terrible job with employees.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 53):
So you have no idea what transpired between 2005 and the merger.

I'm a United 1-K now (that's a 100,000 frequent flyer) and don't fly DL at all.

And now that I have used my Skyteam miles, I have no proprietary reason to keep up with DL/NW shenanigans
 
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mayor
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:19 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 72):
I'm a United 1-K now (that's a 100,000 frequent flyer) and don't fly DL at all.

And now that I have used my Skyteam miles, I have no proprietary reason to keep up with DL/NW shenanigans

Then lets hope that you become as satisfied with UA/CO as you seem to be DISSATISFIED with DL/NW (for whatever reason). I don't understand, considering you stopped flying NW (not DL) in 2005, why you seem to have switched to UA/CO instead of trying DL.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:43 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 73):
I don't understand, considering you stopped flying NW (not DL) in 2005, why you seem to have switched to UA/CO instead of trying DL.

We're going off-topic, but I used to fly CO as part of Skyteam with NW.

CO is now part of Star Alliance with UA. So the transitional element was actually Continental.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:06 pm

I would hope no one on a airline/aircraft enthusiast forum would want UA's merger to fail. It is also true that some of these armchair CEO's have unrealistic expectations when you undertake such a big merger.

However, the manner in which the merger took place (IT integration, frequent flyer integration, branding decision) was puzzling to put it charitably. When you combine it with the fact you've had a protracted and ugly negotiating process with virtually all of the unions and no real integration of the work groups (at least until recently), it only adds to the perception that the nuts and bolts of this merger were not well thought out.

I'm certain that the DL/NW merger had tons of issues. However, their integration was quicker and the publicly perceived problems much fewer than UA. Also, DL is setting the gold standard for labor relations.

Given SFO is my closest large airport, I am hugely invested in seeing UA suceed. That being said, I've seen first hand the problems in everything from the IT problems to maintenance issues. The rank and file employees are trying but are frustrated by the manner in which the the integration was planned. They may have saved some cash initially on doing all of this on the cheap but its created a ton of issues which will take a long time to solve.

However, UA mgt will say, "hey we are making cash so obviously the general public will put up with it so it was a rousing success."

[Edited 2012-07-29 10:07:42]
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:20 am

Quoting bestwestern (Thread starter):
As an outsider to the whole North American aviation scene, the whole UA/CO merger seems to be a disaster in comparison to the way that DL/NW were merged.

The New Delta seems to have come through the merger refreshed, whilst all I read about here is the disaster that is happening around the UA/CO merger.

There is a lot of opinion being thrown around on this thread and not much more than andicotal evidence being used to support their side. That being said, consider the following:

- DL is 2+ years ahead of CO/UA so it is difficult to make any sort of apples-to-apples comparison right now. DL is well past all integration related issues. CO/UA is still in the midst of it all.

- DL/NW rewrote the playbook for the definition of a successful merger with essentially zero operational-related issues. CO/UA by most accounts is doing very well.

- When DL and NW merged they were more recently just out of Ch. 11 and recovering. CO / UA have had more time outiside of bankruptcy to recover on their own. Changed the dynamics and politics somewhat.

Trust me, there was plenty of complaints around the DL and NW merger, most were trival and over time most have come to deal with the new reality.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:01 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 75):
Trust me, there was plenty of complaints around the DL and NW merger, most were trival and over time most have come to deal with the new reality.

There are always SOME glitches in any merger. In the DL/WA merger, it took a Supreme Court justice (Sandra Day OConnor) to overturn a circuit court ruling to allow the merger to go thru, so while it shows that the official merger was on April 1, 1987, the actual full day of ops was on the 2nd. And on that day, we had our own glitches, at least at SLC. It seems that none of the paperwork that was normally transmitted directly to the gates for the flight crew (wx forecast, flight plan, release, preliminary weight and balance and final weight and balance, was being transmitted. Until it was fixed, we had to assemble the paperwork in the coordinator's office and have tug runners take it to each gate. That's how I got pulled off the ramp (I worked about 2-3 flights that day) and got reassigned to the coordinator's office. On one of those flights that I worked, I got the weirdest looks from the flight crew when I saluted them and directed them away from the gate. Apparently, WA's people didn't do that.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:24 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 75):
Trust me, there was plenty of complaints around the DL and NW merger, most were trival and over time most have come to deal with the new reality.

  

It's important, too, to remember that DL and NW had very different problems than UA and CO are having. It seems to me like DL and NW did much less crossfleeting early on, for instance, so that simplified some of the problems UA and CO are currently facing. But there would be situations prior to a single IT system where certain seats would not be for sale on both carriers' systems, which made it very difficult to buy tickets. AFAIK, UA/CO didn't have any of that.

That's not to say that one is "better" than the other. Both had problems, but they are different problems. Looking back, DL/NW was a success. But I'm not yet sure that in 2 years, we are going to look back and say UA/CO was a failure.
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777ord
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:09 pm

Quoting termbewr (Reply 9):
From a customer's perspective, the only negative feedback I've heard about the UA/CO merger has been in reference to the aircraft. The CO fleet is quite young and the interiors are generally in very good condition. Also, they had been installing DirecTV and AVOD etc. When the UA aircraft became intergrated into the schedules, I did hear comments from several CO passengers how the UA aircraft seemed dated and in shabby condition.

With regard to the DL/NW merger, I don't recall either carrier's aircraft being in particularly good condition when the merger occured. That alone probably minimized quite a bit of customer dissatisfaction.

Do know, that CO really hit it hard with repaiting and re-doing the interiors to accomodate the seat number changes to include economy Plus. Yes, UA's interiors are more dated, but are far more comfortable than CO's. I'd take a UA seat over a CO seat any day!!

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 10):
It helps to remember that a vast majority of what you read on a.net is opinion.

fact!

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 16):
Truth is, these things all take time. Ten years from now UA/CO may look great and Delta may be a disaster. Stay tuned!

Very true. Our merger is really only in it's starting out phase. I mean, just in May we brought our CO ops to the Sears Tower. So, even there we-as operations- are getting settled in and will soon be (maybe a year?) merging our operations. We need to combine numerous work contracts. And seeing how the UA side of hte house does business, and how different our side does. Change will need to come from the foundation-us- to make this happen even better. I'm a huge supporter of the airline merger. Believe me! But, there is a lot of work to be done, and a lot of the animosity is really from the senior people who cannot get over the change in their daily routine. I tell them "so quit if you don't like it. Or deal with it". Magically they deal with it! lol Some people just need to see the perspective of this all and they get in line.

I am confident that United will get her kinks out sooner rather than later and finally be a great airline once again. And I am proud to know I will be there when that day comes!  
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:52 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 21):
Yes, it might be an oversimplification but it's clear to me that DL is using carrots and UA/CO is using sticks, so it's no surprise that things are dragging along at UA/CO.

+1

CEO Smisek must be replaced. The toxic atmosphere he has created within nearly every employee workgroup is palpable, and indeed irrecoverable (short of new leadership). Managers such as Smisek seek to downplay the human element (as it relates to corporate operations). This is simply no way to run an airline.
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:33 am

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 57):
Wow! This statement is rediculous. Ask anyone who worked at Northwest and youll find out that Northwest bought Delta w Northwest money and then remained Delta.

Why do people still say this to this day?
What gets measured gets done.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 80):
Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 57):
Wow! This statement is rediculous. Ask anyone who worked at Northwest and youll find out that Northwest bought Delta w Northwest money and then remained Delta.

Why do people still say this to this day?

Just another myth. The logic seems ass backwards to me. If it was true, why did it remain DL and not stay NW?  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
NWADTWE16
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:13 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 81):

I was going to respond to the 'what do unions have to do with it staying DL over NW from above but u basically asked again so ill say..and its my opinion (and many others) but also obvious, as we see this all over our country the past 5 years..First, im sure there are other reasons..I am not a DL or NW executive so im not going to pretend i have knowledge that is so secret no one else knew LOL..but, DL and NW combined as DL brought a larger NON-UNIONIZED workforce into a workforce that was ALL-UNION and very vocal. NW had very bad negotiating with its unions and to be honest employees with NW since atleast 1993 had given not once but twice a major chunk of their salary to save the airline. Did the airline ever get around to giving back those raises that were missed? NO! I think people may have made it near where they started in 93 with the givebacks (This was under Rothmeier). Anyway, without losing people here..there were plenty of Clear reasons to be DL related to dismissing the unions and what they were owed, creating the NOn-Union airline you see today. I am pro-Union for the record..ive watched promises after promises from almost every airline executive team and when the time comes for Bonuses, voila hundreds of millions$$$, when the time comes to live up to your employees agreement to get back when the airline improved=Never happenned.. DL is doing well today with no unions, and i think they know keeping their people happy is best but overall in the this country, in almost every industry, the ability to organize and demand what you deserve is being dismantled piece by piece...this is not good for anyone, and for the country as a whole..wages are way down and wage-earners are what keep the Capitalist economy going...
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:18 am

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 82):

So, give me the reason, again, that it's not a myth.........I seemed to have missed it, somehow.........they still could have left it non-union (all it took was the representation elections to go their way) and still left it NW, right?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
strfyr51
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:58 am

I work for UAL at the Network Operations Center, The Only problems we (UA) have are a Lack of Understanding of what the ( CO) side is trying to achieve. UA has been doing it with More Automation and Co does it with more manpower.
Many of the UA systems were far superior to CO's and there weren't as many "Chiefs"!! Co has brought in a LOT of Chiefs and they would like to TELL US how it's done. And they Would, if they actually KNEW how it's done. Some of their Stuff is pretty good, Some?? Not worth a DAMN! But then again?? That's ALL they know. And they really don't want to hear any other way, (for the moment) , Suffice to say, We'll Change their ways before they change ours,
Some of their stuff is already coming undone when we ask questions that they have no answers for and had NEVER thought of.
It's my opinon that in 2 years many of them will have jumped ship and Scurried back to Houston. I personally think moving them to CHI-Town was a PLOT to weed out the weak among them. They DO have some pretty outstanding people as do WE.
UA Senior mnagement has even changed some and loosened up. Before?? They NEVER would have considered opening up the schedule with "spares". Their aim was to fly EVERY Plane Every Minute of EVERY DAY.
If an airplane went out of service for repairs?? Then "Crank Down" the inbound for the outbound until that airplane was fixed.
Then complain about it later. Trouble is? You can't do that forever. At some point the "piper has Got to be paid" and now you have 5-6 airplanes out of service because you re-routed to account for the ONE airplane. There's Been a LACK of understanding amongst the Non Maintenence side of UAL that you're going to DO the maintenence. Whether you do it NOW? or Later,,, , It's Going to get DONE!! And when it comes due? We ( in maintenece) don't care What you wanted to do. Here's what we're Going to do and you're going to have to Live with it !!. The CO side does a LOT of planning
(though I don't see their execution as any better than the UA side.) They do their maintenece as planned, When planned, and that's a good thing. The UA Side gives up airplanes "Grudgingly" at best, and Whines about it the rest of the time.
CO will hang with an airplane until Hell Freezes over rather than cancel the trip. UA will eventually cancel the trip or another trip that's less of a priority in connecting passengers . So the Philosophies NEED to be melded into common Core.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:07 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 83):
So, give me the reason, again, that it's not a myth.........I seemed to have missed it, somehow.........they still could have left it non-union (all it took was the representation elections to go their way) and still left it NW, right?

Exactly...

Unions have nothing to do with the way DL/NW set policies as far as how they transfer bags, how they handle local bags, how they time connections, a/c minimum ground times, de-icing program, IT infrastructure, RES System, Ramp loading policies and procedures, w&b, THE WAY YOU CHOCK AN A/C TIRE (yes, even this has reveted to the way DL did it), going on and on and on. It's total BS Mayor...
What gets measured gets done.
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:49 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 84):
So the Philosophies NEED to be melded into common Core.

Thanks for the interesting post!
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The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:48 pm

The merger worked "well" between Delta and Northwest because it was well planed long before the merger. Richard Anderson left Northwest, going to United Health. He did not want to tarnish his image. Doug Stenland stuck around as the fall guy and did most of the dirty work He has left and I am sure he was well compensated. Northwest took on a useless union or association called AMFA and broke the mechanics. Both airlines had their ducks in a row and filed bankruptcy on the same day. They shed debt, high rate leases and other obligations which they wanted to eliminate.
After they both exited bankruptcy, Richard Anderson returned to run the new Delta. Key team members from Northwest were kept to join Delta executives that were to remain. They beat down and out all unions, except for two. ALPA was the largest to remain as both airlines had been represented by ALPA. There is one other small union, but I can't think the group it represents.
Delta got most of what it wants. Both MEM and CVG are a shadow of themselves. Atlanta got the headquarters and Minnesota lost just about everything else. MSP is now just a hub and Hibbing, MN still has it's reservation center. Delta got the Pacific routes of Northwest. Delta has treated it's employees fairly well for now, but that could change for the worse. Delta now uses United Heath, where Richard was, for it's medical insurance plans. I do not know who Delta used prior to the merger. I do know that compared to what Northwest had, when I was there, it is not as good or paid for by the company. They have a way of "suggesting" what the employees must do regarding health plans. When I retired, I went with the medical plan my wife's employer has. I do not have to pay any premiums for the insurance. If I would have stayed with Northwest's medical plan, it would have cost me $175 per month plus about another $100 per month for prescription medication insurance. If I would have added my wife, the cost would have doubled. From what I have heard there were more changes for the worse if I was on Delta's medical insurance plan.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:58 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 87):
. Delta now uses United Heath, where Richard was, for it's medical insurance plans. I do not know who Delta used prior to the merger.

DL's medical plan is financed, in house.......United Healthcare is just the administrator, which is what it was LONG before Anderson was with United Healthcare.



Just more myths. BTW, be careful......the sky MIGHT be falling  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 87):
There is one other small union, but I can't think the group it represents.

PAFCA= Represents the dispatchers

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 87):
Hibbing, MN still has it's reservation center.

... For now...

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 87):
I do not know who Delta used prior to the merger. I do know that compared to what Northwest had, when I was there, it is not as good or paid for by the company.
Quoting mayor (Reply 88):
DL's medical plan is financed, in house.......United Healthcare is just the administrator, which is what it was LONG before Anderson was with United Healthcare.

@NWAROOSTER-- I agree. I never thought I'd say I missed BCBS, but here we are.

@Mayor-- I don't speak for the man, but I took his post as referring to the premiums paid by the employee, not self funding. If that's the case, then he's correct. We're paying more now for less coverage than we were before...

Also, how long has UHC been the administrator for DL? When you say a "Long time," what does that mean? Just curious...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:20 pm

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 89):

Also, how long has UHC been the administrator for DL? When you say a "Long time," what does that mean? Just curious...

At least since 2000, in my recollection........maybe longer.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:25 pm

Gracias...

....

....
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
NWADTWE16
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 85):

I dont have the exact numbers at the time but DL employees to the best of my knowledge were never union right? They definetely werent at time of merger. DL had more employees than NW that could vote..and DL employees still to this day are so certain THEIR airline gobbled up NW, they were not going to vote for unions..as a nod to DL mgmt, they were smart enough to really keep them happy up to this and for the period since. I agree with Rooster, it may go downhill soon..i hope not..i have many family and friends still there. As many of you know and feel when you work your tail off for an airline your a proud person for that airline. As the CO family feels now i cant imagine seeing their paint scheme flying around all over with the titles United on it =( NWA people were proud and dont get me wrong seeing DL survive as a great carrier is nice but it doesnt take away from how fast they painted that first 747400 and flew it to ATL to show it off..im done w the back and forth..back to CO/UA talk now
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 92):


I dont have the exact numbers at the time but DL employees to the best of my knowledge were never union right?

Except for the pilots and dispatchers, not since I've been involved with them (since '71) and I'm sure it was that way before that.



I really think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how DL handles its employees.........they've given how many pay raises ("restorations") in the last couple of years plus how much profit sharing?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:19 pm

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 92):
, it may go downhill soon..i hope not..

Why would it?

Do you keep up with the current happenings? As of right now, the employees, not management, is re-writing the HR handbook for starters. Just one of many changes and this is nothing new for DL.
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:22 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 90):
At least since 2000, in my recollection........maybe longer.

FWIW, Mayor and NWAESC, UHC always took care of DL's Ruby/Gold/Diamon plans or whatever they're called. PPO was under CIGNA up until a couple years ago. It's all UHC now.
What gets measured gets done.
 
NWADTWE16
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 94):

pure skeptism of airline mgmt  
I agree, after years of having high senority NW employees working side by side with lower senority (higher paid) DL employees they appear to be leveling things off. No retro pay though, a union would have made sure that happenned as its deserved. Profit sharing is a great incentive, hope that keeps up....
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:43 pm

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 96):
No retro pay though, a union would have made sure that happenned as its deserved. Profit sharing is a great incentive, hope that keeps up....

Who's fault it that exactly? MGMT or the IAM? The argument the entire time was all or nothing. Legally, DL could have given the NW folk raises as well (the IAM did publicly say they had no issues with it) but where does it end? Give give here but not here? Align certain things but not others?

You were under contract for X so which is it?
What gets measured gets done.
 
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mayor
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:48 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 95):

FWIW, Mayor and NWAESC, UHC always took care of DL's Ruby/Gold/Diamon plans or whatever they're called. PPO was under CIGNA up until a couple years ago. It's all UHC now.

Depends on where you were........when they first went to an HMO program in addition to the regular DL medical program, we had a local HMO (FHP, I believe) that we could choose from in SLC. UHC didn't come along (systemwide) until later.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
tommy767
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RE: Why Did DL/NW Merger Work In Comparison To UA/CO?

Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:50 pm

Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 92):
As the CO family feels now i cant imagine seeing their paint scheme flying around all over with the titles United on it =( NWA people were proud and dont get me wrong seeing DL survive as a great carrier is nice but it doesnt take away from how fast they painted that first 747400 and flew it to ATL to show it off..im done w the back and forth..back to CO/UA talk now

Same as UA employees losing the Saul Bass logo. It was a horrible branding decision all around. At least CO employees can be happy their logo and vast majority of their policies survived. PMUA can't say the same thing and they had to learn CO's crappy computer system as well.

I do think in the long run it will be regarded that DL and NW was a much smoother merger experience. And even now, DL is making some great moves like getting like getting contracts resolved, 717s from Air Tran (this is huge BTW -- They are going to squash WN out of ATL), buying the oil refinery in PA, getting more second hand M90s, and ditching the 50 seaters. Not to mention pulling the ex-TW 757s from AA a few years ago. I'd say they are making some great moves overall. I remember back in 2005 -- DL was not an airline you would go out of your way to fly with.
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