Ryanair Hits AA 767, Both Aircraft Fly With Damage

777236ER · Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:44 am

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45363621&opt=0

Ryanair 737 winglet hits AA 767 elevator, causing damage to both. Ryanair captain disregards information from purser and passengers and doesn't inform the AA crew of a potential collision. The 767 took off with the damaged elevator. The 737 flew two sectors until the damage was noticed.

shufflemoomin · Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:53 am

Wow. I assume that Ryanair pilot will be looking for a new career immediately? I would advocate fines or criminal charges if this story is true.

AirlineCritic · Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:12 am

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
Ryanair captain disregards information from purser and passengers and doesn't inform the AA crew of a potential collision.

AA did not pay collision-informing fee

[Edited 2012-07-30 00:13:03]

BDL757 · Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:17 am

So nobody on the AA plane realized anything happened?

bennett123 · Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:22 am

I thought that a "walk around" is done before every flight.

How come the damage was not noticed for 2 sectors.

zkojq · Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:23 am

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 1):
Wow. I assume that Ryanair pilot will be looking for a new career immediately? I would advocate fines or criminal charges if this story is true.

One of the Avherald comments says that the captain was demoted to first officer. Not sure how reliable that source is.

HAL · Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:53 am

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 2):
AA did not pay collision-informing fee

That was a milk-out-the-nose laughter causing statement!

HAL

HAWK21M · Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:23 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 4):
I thought that a "walk around" is done before every flight.

How come the damage was not noticed for 2 sectors.

Exactly.....thats the 2nd point......The 1st point is if a vibration of impact was felt,it should have been checked out.

shufflemoomin · Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:21 am

This is just a failure all round. The crew ignored information from people that a collision has definitely taken place and also didn't notice anything on the go around. The crew of the Ryanair crew knew nothing about the severity of the damage. They didn't even know if the AA was capable of flight due to the damage, yet ignored it. If it's true that this Captain has just been demoted rather than stripped of their job, of even license, then that's crazy.

kl911 · Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:28 am

Crew didnt notice due to the very bumby taxiway, plus it wasnt a hit, more like a brush.

cuban8 · Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:35 am

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
The 737 flew two sectors until the damage was noticed.

This is what happens when you fly with a lot of pressure from your commercial department. You end up in stressed situations with fatigues pilots, bad decision making and ill performed pre-flight inspections due to short turn-arounds.

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 8):
The crew ignored information from people that a collision has definitely taken place and also didn't notice anything on the go around.

Did they execute a go around as well ??

NorthstarBoy · Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:02 am

After reading the article, I'm going to refrain from making any comments related to women drivers......

One thing does confuse me, wouldn't BCN Air Traffic Control have told the Ryanair to hold short and wait for the 763 to commence it's takeoff roll? Or did ATC think there was enough clearance for the 738 to get past the 763?

Either way, it seems that someone wasn't exercising proper judgement.

Then again, I can remember the first time I flew Iberia, from BCN to LPA, we took off, climbed out, and another 727 passed under us so close that I could literally see it's registration. That made me more than a little nervous. Has BCN ATC never heard of one mile separation?

Lastly, as damaged as that left stabilizer was, wouldn't that have presented issues in the cockpit of the 763?

shufflemoomin · Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:27 pm

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 10):
Did they execute a go around as well ??

Har-de-har. Walk around, obviously.

rfields5421 · Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:32 pm

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 11):
One thing does confuse me, wouldn't BCN Air Traffic Control have told the Ryanair to hold short and wait for the 763 to commence it's takeoff roll? Or did ATC think there was enough clearance for the 738 to get past the 763?

Both airplanes were on the holding area short of the runway. Neither was actually on the runway. They were both in an area shown in the photo where dozens of planes taxi past each other every day.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 11):
wouldn't that have presented issues in the cockpit of the 763?

No. The photo of the damage to the B767 shows a very minor dent in the elevator. The angle and the zoom makes it look a lot bigger than it really is. The impact would not have been noticable in the cockpit of the B767, or the B737. It would have had no impact on the flight controls of the airplane.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 4):
How come the damage was not noticed for 2 sectors.

Any damage to the B737 would have been on the very top of the winglet. Those things are high, and hard to see unless you can get above the winglet and look down. My understanding is that many Ryanair aircraft park at remote stands. The damage likely could not be seen until the plane was parked at a jetway.

ghifty · Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:37 pm

Why is this old news just getting reported now? The timestamp on the pic showing damage to N336AA is from 04/11.

EDIT: Seems the event took place on 4/11..

Eagleboy · Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:40 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 9):
Crew didnt notice due to the very bumby taxiway, plus it wasnt a hit, more like a brush.

Well that all OK then. Being an FR fanboy does not allow you to make moronic comments.

A commercial airliner made contact with another aircraft before both took-off, the flight deck didn't investigate the 'brush' when they were informed of it, and didn't inform the other aircraft/ATC.......and you seem to be fine with this incident?

LU9092 · Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:50 pm

This strikes me as a very serious issue deserving a thorough investigation into the FR captain's actions that day, as well as the business, cultural, and training issues that may have contributed to it. Especially damning is that in this case, the captain put at risk the crew and passengers of another plane. Any airline that would keep a pilot guilty of such gross negligence and dereliction of duty should have its certification carefully reconsidered. I hope the proper authorities have a good look.

Luckily both aircraft remained airworthy, but it seems particularly dangerous in that the 763 crew had likely already performed all of their control surface checks, no? Had the impact impaired function of the elevator, the AA crew may not have known until their plane failed to rotate as expected. That's a very bad time to find out your airplane is broken. I hope that AA pursues this matter as well, if for no other reason than to be sure FR sees consequences that it might wish to avoid in the future.

neutrino · Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:09 pm

From the picture, it appears that the impact is not forceful enough to be noticeably felt by the occupants of both planes. The 767's horstab is quite high up and dihedral. The topmost tip of the 737's winglet just barely sliced into the stab's trailing edge which is also slightly lower to the ground than the leading edge. The winglet then exited under the stab, causing no further damage other than maybe a little linear indent and gradually fainter scratchline on the upward and outward slanting underside. A glancing blow that caused a small part of the thin trailing edge to break off and an area of the upper skin further in to pop up.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 4):
I thought that a "walk around" is done before every flight.
How come the damage was not noticed for 2 sectors.

My take is that as the damage to the winglet is at the top and is not heavy, it could be missed by the ground crew who are not aware of the accident and are therefore not specifically looking for anything unusual. As for the pilots, did they miss performing the required walkabout or did they just nonchalantly do a cursory one?

Burkhard · Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:42 pm

We have not seen the damage on the 737 yet, so cannot comment if it was visible at a walk around at all...

Before any conclusion, we need better facts, but it sounds serious up to now. How can it be this came as news only about 4 months after it happened?

neutrino · Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:49 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 18):

4 months? Its more like 15.

spiritair97 · Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:50 pm

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic and is the STUPIDEST question I have ever asked, but in the comments, somebody mentions that Ryanair only has only pilot for flight. That isn't true, is it? Once again, I sincerely doubt that that is true, but I just want to clarify.

travelavnut · Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:54 pm

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 20):
Sorry if this is a bit off-topic and is the STUPIDEST question I have ever asked, but in the comments, somebody mentions that Ryanair only has only pilot for flight. That isn't true, is it? Once again, I sincerely doubt that that is true, but I just want to clarify.

The quite flamboyant (if you can call it that) CEO of Ryanair mentioned it a few times, probably to get media attention (a strategy that worked quite well IIRC). But it's luckily impossible with current regulations.

So no, still 2 pilots at the pointy end

kl911 · Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:57 pm

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 12):
Har-de-har. Walk around, obviously.

At Budapest they do walk arounds.

kl911 · Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 15):
A commercial airliner made contact with another aircraft before both took-off, the flight deck didn't investigate the 'brush' when they were informed of it, and didn't inform the other aircraft/ATC.......and you seem to be fine with this incident?

No, I didnt say that. But judging from the number of posts of AA planes hitting their own planes at airports they should be used to it.

To me this sounds like FR bashing again. Every airline can get away with it exept for FR....typical..

readytotaxi · Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Thread starter):
Ryanair 737 winglet hits AA 767 elevator, causing damage to both.

A clear case of Ryanair punching above its weight.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 2):
AA did not pay collision-informing fee

Best this year.

lppr95 · Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 4):

I thought that a "walk around" is done before every flight.

How come the damage was not noticed for 2 sectors.

A few days ago I was at FAO waiting for my flight and noticed a FR pilot leaving the cockpit for a walk around. What shocked me was that the pilot went srtaight to the main gear and only checked the breaks and tyres! During the 30 minuts that the aircraft was on ground that was the only external check the pilots made.

Maybe this is the way FR pilots are trainned for walk arounds, to allow short turn arounds.

BigSaabowski · Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:29 pm

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 11):
Then again, I can remember the first time I flew Iberia, from BCN to LPA, we took off, climbed out, and another 727 passed under us so close that I could literally see it's registration. That made me more than a little nervous. Has BCN ATC never heard of one mile separation?

I haven't heard of one mile separation either, is that new?

Acheron · Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 13):
The photo of the damage to the B767 shows a very minor dent in the elevator

That doesn't look minor at all. And I doubt there is such thing as "minor damage" when it comes to control surfaces.

LJ · Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:31 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 18):
Before any conclusion, we need better facts, but it sounds serious up to now. How can it be this came as news only about 4 months after it happened?

As stated on Avherald, there is no official report yet and Avherald didn't know which aircraft were involved until somebody gave Avherald some additional information. Wonders why it takes the Spanish authorities to take more than 15 months to issue an official report.

mikect · Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:38 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 23):
Every airline can get away with it exept for FR....typical..

I don't think anyone is bashing the airline for the collision, but for ignoring the fact that it happened.

seabosdca · Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 23):
Every airline can get away with it exept for FR....typical..

No one could "get away" with failing to investigate after being informed of a collision. It's indefensible and would remain so no matter what the airline was.

I'll accept for the sake of argument that they might not have felt it, but they were informed of it by cabin crew.

sstsomeday · Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 2):
AA did not pay collision-informing fee

Quoting HAL (Reply 6):
That was a milk-out-the-nose laughter causing statement!

Hilarious!

Quoting LU9092 (Reply 16):
Had the impact impaired function of the elevator, the AA crew may not have known until their plane failed to rotate as expected.

The elevator could have failed at any time during the flight had it been severely enough damaged.

I think this was an egregious error, and criminally negligent on the part of the Ryanair Pilot. He did not assess the damage, and he did not report the incident. I expect that there is monitoring by regulatory bodies to ensure that airlines' corporate cultures do not, neither subliminally, nor not so subliminally, pressure pilots to fly without following safety protocols?

I boarded a (happened to be AA) MD-80 once, but we had to exit the A/C because the air bridge had slightly scratched it. The captain said that he knew there was no structural damage to the A/C, but that there was protocol to follow in the interest of safety. Maintenance was called, and whereas I couldn't see the scratch from the concourse, close to the entry door, they did "buff" the area with an electric tool to smooth the scratch down, and the resulting "scar" I could definitely see, even though it was an unpainted area. That took about 2 hours.

Once on a United Express CRJ, we had to taxi back to the terminal without taking off because a light in the cockpit indicated that the door was not fully closed. The captain said,"We know the door IS closed, however we still have to return to the tarmac and have this light checked out."

Though tedious in both cases, and expensive for the airline in terms of the rigorous daily schedule of an A/C, this protocol, I think is much more prudent, sane, and I would expect, regulation.

Gingersnap · Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:55 pm

Women pilots

I read on PPRuNe that because she was demoted, she actually left FR altogether.

mikect · Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:55 pm

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45363621&opt=0

The article has just been updated with quite a bit more information. Specifically the captain stated she was only aware of one passenger seeing the collision, and had she understood that it was more than one passenger, she wouldn't reacted differently.

SEA · Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:05 pm

There was a good point on the AV Herald article: Would the FR crew have been able to spot the damage to the winglet from a walk around? It's near the very top portion, I'm not sure that would have been easily visible.

neutrino · Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:08 pm

Quoting MikeCT (Reply 33):
Specifically the captain stated she was only aware of one passenger seeing the collision, and had she understood that it was more than one passenger, she wouldn't reacted differently.

You got it the other way round.
The article states: "...she continued to say in the interview that had she been aware of multiple passengers observing the collision she would have reacted differently."

mikect · Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting neutrino (Reply 35):
The article states: "...she continued to say in the interview that had she been aware of multiple passengers observing the collision she would have reacted differently."

Right, she stated she was only aware of one passenger, not multiple passengers witnessing the collision. But I wrote, "wouldn't" reacted differently instead of "would've." My bad, I was just typing too fast.

womenbeshoppin · Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:24 pm

neutrino · Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting SEA (Reply 34):
There was a good point on the AV Herald article: Would the FR crew have been able to spot the damage to the winglet from a walk around? It's near the very top portion, I'm not sure that would have been easily visible.

That was my earlier opinion on viewing the photo of the 767 damage.
Its hard to discern looking up so high from ground level.
Did the pilots actually perform a walk around after landing/before next takeoff and if they did, have they tried hard enough to spot it?

Quoting neutrino (Reply 17):

My take is that as the damage to the winglet is at the top and is not heavy, it could be missed by the ground crew who are not aware of the accident and are therefore not specifically looking for anything unusual.

gulfstream650 · Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting a comment on Avherald:

Quote:
By The Wrench on Monday, Jul 30th 2012 11:29Z

This is not a defence, but if the captain already had a previous incident of leaving the paved surface in Scotland, how much did the "trouble" she faced over that incident play into her terribly flawed decision making after the incident in Barcelona? I also believe that culture plays a big role in how comanders behave and in a culture where time is money and missing a slot is the Ryanair equivalent of an own goal, I suspect that it affected her very flawed thinking. If she's human, she should still have trouble sleeping at night over the potential disaster that she set in motion when the AA B767 departed on a long flight across the Atlantic.

rfields5421 · Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting MikeCT (Reply 33):
The article has just been updated with quite a bit more information.

From the Ryanair damage photo in the article (it is also included in post #37 above) - I don't see how anyone could see that doing a walkaround. There is no bent metal, nothing but some scrapes on the paint. The winglet is 8 ft 2 inches above the wing, 21 ft 1 in above the ground.

http://www.b737.org.uk/winglets.htm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 27):
That doesn't look minor at all.

What - maybe two inches long and a quarter inch wide?

The angle of the photo and the zoom lense really distort the outer section of the elevator - making the 'damage' look much worse than it is.

mikect · Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 40):
Quoting Acheron (Reply 27):
That doesn't look minor at all.

What - maybe two inches long and a quarter inch wide?

To play Devil's advocate a little bit, couldn't you also assume if the captain of the 767 knew of the damage he would have elected not to fly?

rfields5421 · Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting MikeCT (Reply 41):
To play Devil's advocate a little bit, couldn't you also assume if the captain of the 767 knew of the damage he would have elected not to fly?

I'm certain the captain would have it checked if he knew that the contact had occured.

I don't know the full regs on that type of damage, if it is a ground the aircraft, or fly to a major airline station with repair capability requirement.

SEPilot · Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:18 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 42):
I don't know the full regs on that type of damage, if it is a ground the aircraft, or fly to a major airline station with repair capability requirement.

I'm pretty sure that ANY visible damage to a control surface renders the aircraft instantly unairworthy. A very small amount of damage could induce flutter, or cause other undesirable aerodynamic effects. And since the certification requirements do not include testing with damaged control surfaces, the pilot has just been promoted (unknowingly in this case) to test pilot status.

cf6ppe · Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 43):
I'm pretty sure that ANY visible damage to a control surface renders the aircraft instantly unairworthy. A very small amount of damage could induce flutter, or cause other undesirable aerodynamic effects. And since the certification requirements do not include testing with damaged control surfaces, the pilot has just been promoted (unknowingly in this case) to test pilot status.

SEPilot, Good post to the point. (you're probably startled to have me make that statement...

)

In an instance such as this, consultation of the MEL (Minimum Equipment List), CDL (Configuration Deviation List), and definitely the AMM (Aircraft Maintenance Manual) followed by the Aircraft Structural Repair Manual and possibly company repair manuals is a must. And if necessary you bring in the Companies Aircraft Structures Engineer(s) and if required the Manufacturers Representatives who are able to talk to their experts on the subject at hand.

Anyway, this from someone that has operated in the small world that some of you haven't...... ok..!!

slinky09 · Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:56 pm

I'm wondering what would you do if you were on the plane and witnessed the contact. Alert the cabin crewm yes, but how far would you take things if no response was given - let's use this scenario as a use case perhaps?

zanl188 · Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 40):
What - maybe two inches long and a quarter inch wide?

The angle of the photo and the zoom lense really distort the outer section of the elevator - making the 'damage' look much worse than it is.

It's not a dent, that's for sure. Torn metal with honeycomb showing....

blueflyer · Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:55 pm

Frankly the other reaction I don't understand is the passengers'. If I know I have seen an impact between the plane I am in and another aircraft, there's nothing the captain can say that'll keep me onboard that plane without an inspection!

captainstefan · Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:12 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 22):
At Budapest they do walk arounds.

In Soviet Russia, plane walk around you

jreuschl · Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:19 pm

At least in the US, if you questioned aircraft security, you probably would be taken off the plane and questioned to no end by the TSA and FBI!

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