787s Are A Go For Air India!

flightsimer · Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:01 pm

They finally have voted to accept the deal offered by Boeing and will begin to prepare for delivery of the first aircraft this week. Actual delivery date is still TBD. Three 787s are currently ready for delivery at this time.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...e-to-take-delivery-of-787s-375111/

aeroblogger · Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:56 pm

First 4 deliveries expected this month.

AI expects to have 7 aircraft in operation by November.

8th to arrive in January 2013. 9th to arrive April 2013. 10th to arrive in May 2013. 11th to arrive in June 2013. 12th to arrive in August 2013. 13th to arrive in November 2013. 14th to arrive in January 2014.

Stitch · Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:37 pm

So AI is not going to wait for the outcome of the GEnx failure investigation, it seems.

KDAYflyer · Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:55 pm

About stinking time.

They basically wanted the planes for free. Absolutely outrageous. I hope Boeing stretched out the payments for 100 years.

DocLightning · Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:00 pm

Forgive me if I missed a thread, but any word on what caused the engine failure?

United787 · Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 3):
About stinking time.

I am waiting until the fat lady sings before I get too excited!

FriendlySkies · Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 3):
I hope Boeing stretched out the payments for 100 years.

If I were Boeing I'd ask for 100% as soon as they hand over the keys.

ebj1248650 · Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Forgive me if I missed a thread, but any word on what caused the engine failure?

I haven't seen anything specific about what caused the failure though I have read the engine is still going strong on airplanes that use it. Most current information appears to be that the investigation is ongoing.

col · Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:53 pm

Great news for all. Let's see what Air India can do now to turn itself around.

tharanga · Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
So AI is not going to wait for the outcome of the GEnx failure investigation, it seems.

I would not read that into this news. The engine incident will, I think, be handled separately from this compensation claim. So I would expect the delivery and entry-into-service could still be delayed by the engine question.

flylku · Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:10 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 6):
If I were Boeing I'd ask for 100% as soon as they hand over the keys.

Agreed. Sorry its late but if you want to compete you'll have to fly this airplane: pay up.

ytz · Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:25 am

Any idea on routes at launch?

xdlx · Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:42 am

Quoting col (Reply 8):

No offense to anyone.... but it is highly unlikely that India will change the way they see and use air transport.
Air India will continue the way it has always been....

aeroblogger · Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:02 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
So AI is not going to wait for the outcome of the GEnx failure investigation

Source?

AI Engg has stated that delivery will not happen until the investigation is complete. This announcement was made after it was cleared by the CCEA.. I have not heard of any changes to this status since the announcement.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 6):
If I were Boeing I'd ask for 100% as soon as they hand over the keys.

AI is purchasing these aircraft from Boeing. The price must be paid in full before delivery can take place...

Quoting tharanga (Reply 9):
I would not read that into this news. The engine incident will, I think, be handled separately from this compensation claim. So I would expect the delivery and entry-into-service could still be delayed by the engine question.

spiritair97 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:39 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 1):

The first 4, I believe, are sitting on the eamp in CHS. It might, however, only be three, considering one is only in base colors (red tail, sticker-titles), had the engine failure last week.

tdscanuck · Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:48 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 6):
Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 3):
I hope Boeing stretched out the payments for 100 years.

If I were Boeing I'd ask for 100% as soon as they hand over the keys.

As far as I know, all OEM's get 100% prior to delivery. If there is financing involved it's with a bank, not with the OEM. It's just like buying a car. There are some OEM's with financing arms but they're generally separate business units from the airframers and I think they mostly help arrange financing, rather than actually being the lien holder.

Tom.

lightsaber · Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:23 am

Wait a second, from the OP's link:"We are currently in discussion with the airline and will work with them to identify a timetable for delivery," says Boeing when contacted."

Ugh... That leave a bit of wiggle room. I read that announcement and its only government approval. Has AI changed their stance?

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 13):
AI Engg has stated that delivery will not happen until the investigation is complete. This announcement was made after it was cleared by the CCEA.. I have not heard of any changes to this status since the announcement.

Exactly. What has changed ?

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 1):
First 4 deliveries expected this month.

AI expects to have 7 aircraft in operation by November.

Source?

AI still wants more compensation:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/b...om-Boeing/articleshow/15378114.cms

Lightsaber

JOYA380B747 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:03 am

I wouldn't get so excited yet. AI is bound to create more ruckus over the engine issues.

AI is an utterly weird company run by people with monkey's brains or worse. It is high time Boeing and Airbus learnt that doing business with this nonsense of a company is worse than the little profit they'd get out of it.

bill142 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:54 am

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 17):
AI is an utterly weird company run by people with monkey's brains or worse. It is high time Boeing and Airbus learnt that doing business with this nonsense of a company is worse than the little profit they'd get out of it.

I'm sure Boeing and Airbus would love to do that. But the political implications of such a move are probably something either of them want to stay well clear of. Especially if it results in the loss of defence contracts.

cricket · Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:02 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 18):
Especially if it results in the loss of defence contracts.

And Boeing has been winning a fair number of those in India

Delboy · Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 11):
Any idea on routes at launch?

I read somewhere they were going to be purely Domestic routes, time will tell.

As someone else said earlier, I'll believe it when the wheels touch down in India.

aeroblogger · Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
Source?

Recent RFP on the website detailed first 7 tentative delivery dates.

Now, the RFP has been taken down, but there is a tender for next 7 delivery dates... So we have a pretty clear picture of the timings of AI's first 14 deliveries.

JOYA380B747 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:07 pm

Quoting Delboy (Reply 20):
Quoting ytz (Reply 11):
Any idea on routes at launch?

I read somewhere they were going to be purely Domestic routes, time will tell.

Probably they'll serve DEL-BOM for the first few weeks for crew training until the Kangaroo flights commence.

aeroblogger · Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 11):
Any idea on routes at launch?

It will start on "Metro domestic routes" for familiarization flights.

This means DEL-BOM/BLR/MAA/HYD/CCU presumably.

After that, SYD, MEL, FRA, and BOM are the expected international routes.

TW · Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:16 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 6):

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 3):
I hope Boeing stretched out the payments for 100 years.

If I were Boeing I'd ask for 100% as soon as they hand over the keys.

I suppose you are talking about different payments, one being compensation payments and the other one being the purchase price of the aircraft. As tdscanuck mentioned, payment is due at delivery (minus PDP's and compensation credits).

chrisnh · Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:54 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
They basically wanted the planes for free.

You know the word they love: "Disssssss-count.' Of course, no such word exists when THEY are the seller. I agree: Outrageous behavior.

PHX787 · Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:31 am

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 7):
I haven't seen anything specific about what caused the failure though I have read the engine is still going strong on airplanes that use it. Most current information appears to be that the investigation is ongoing.

Someone told me it may have been a bird strike or debris ingestion

WestWing · Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:41 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 13):
AI Engg has stated that delivery will not happen until the investigation is complete.

Was this a public position stated by AI Engineering ? I did some cursory Googling but could not find this attributed to a named AI spokesperson so I would be interested to see the precise wording of AI Engg.'s statement on this.

My guess is that would take weeks for the NTSB investigation to complete - doubt it would be before end of August.

KDAYflyer · Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:42 am

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 15):
As far as I know, all OEM's get 100% prior to delivery. If there is financing involved it's with a bank, not with the OEM. It's just like buying a car. There are some OEM's with financing arms but they're generally separate business units from the airframers and I think they mostly help arrange financing, rather than actually being the lien holder.

I was referring to the compensation payments Boeing agreed to make to AI for the late development . I hope they stretch them out as far as possible

aeroblogger · Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:04 am

Quoting WestWing (Reply 27):

Was this a public position stated by AI Engineering ? I did some cursory Googling but could not find this attributed to a named AI spokesperson so I would be interested to see the precise wording of AI Engg.'s statement on this.

Media quoted spokespeople (mostly K. Swaminathan), but he said that hewas quoting AI's chief of Engineering during a press conference.. I'll try to find you a link if I can.

Quoting WestWing (Reply 27):
My guess is that would take weeks for the NTSB investigation to complete - doubt it would be before end of August.

I'd tend to think that your guess is right. AI will probably end up reconsidering their position sooner or later. However, they are still planning to delay to my knowledge until further information is provided.

tharanga · Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:21 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 29):
I'll try to find you a link if I can.

to back you up : I have also seen news articles to that effect (AI said they'd wait to see the results off the NTSB investigation), but I can't seem to find the link.

but then, here is this

"Keskar denied Thursday reports out of India that the national carrier had pledged not to accept any planes until U.S. government investigators determine why one of its jets’ engines failed during a pre-flight taxi test in North Charleston on July 28."

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20120804/PC05/120809581

WestWing · Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:25 am

If an AI spokesperson (K. Swaminathan) went on record quoting the chief of AI Engineering saying that AI would not accept delivery until the investigation is complete - that is strong confirmation of an "official" position of AI Engineering. Did Mr. Swaminathan say this at a common press conference or was it a statement he made to a specific news organization?

aeroblogger · Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:29 am

Quoting WestWing (Reply 31):
If an AI spokesperson (K. Swaminathan) went on record quoting the chief of AI Engineering saying that AI would not accept delivery until the investigation is complete - that is strong confirmation of an "official" position of AI Engineering. Did Mr. Swaminathan say this at a common press conference or was it a statement he made to a specific news organization?

I don't remember...

Quoting tharanga (Reply 30):
to back you up : I have also seen news articles to that effect (AI said they'd wait to see the results off the NTSB investigation), but I can't seem to find the link.

I can't seem to find the link either... Maybe the articles were taken down on request of AI?

Quoting tharanga (Reply 30):
"Keskar denied Thursday reports out of India that the national carrier had pledged not to accept any planes until U.S. government investigators determine why one of its jets’ engines failed during a pre-flight taxi test in North Charleston on July 28."

Hmm, that's interesting. Let me see if I can get someone at AI to confirm this.

WestWing · Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:45 am

I did see the report that AI refused to take the delivery until the investigation is complete. It was in a single source - Business Today. It is still out there, you can find it. However, that single sourced report was unattributed. Which is why I was looking for a more definitive source of such a statement.

Edited to add:

The quote from that Business Today story was:

Air India has conveyed to Boeing that it would "not take deliveries till we know the root cause of the problem, how the (787) fleet is getting affected and faults, if any, rectified," sources said.

I remain skeptical about the authenticity of that reporting - I did not see any other report that independently or verifiably said the same thing. Of course if there is a separate published report where similar words are attributed to "AI spokesperson K. Swaminathan quoting the head of AI Engineering" then it would be highly credible.

[Edited 2012-08-07 21:14:45]

TCX69K · Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:41 pm

I am curious to know why the Boeing 787 has a different livery compared to the rest of the fleet? I know the engines have to remain white. But the fuselage is lacking the cheat lines & the tail is missing the Air India titles. The latter I have to say looks much better IMO!

Any responses much appreciated.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

aeroblogger · Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting WestWing (Reply 33):
I did see the report that AI refused to take the delivery until the investigation is complete. It was in a single source - Business Today. It is still out there, you can find it. However, that single sourced report was unattributed. Which is why I was looking for a more definitive source of such a statement.

Hindustan Times and The Hindu had reported it as well... I think it was the same PTI report. I can't seem to find it now, so that probably means that they took it down.

Quoting TCX69K (Reply 34):
I am curious to know why the Boeing 787 has a different livery compared to the rest of the fleet? I know the engines have to remain white. But the fuselage is lacking the cheat lines & the tail is missing the Air India titles. The latter I have to say looks much better IMO!

I'm not sure why, but I can find out...

I think the lack of titles on the tail looks better, but the lack of cheatline looks worse.

WarmNuts · Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 35):
I think the lack of titles on the tail looks better, but the lack of cheatline looks worse.

Agreed... given the appearance of the 787 (resulting from larger windows and a greater fuselage width). I think a cheatline would improve the aesthetic of the AI livery, especially considering the window outline accentuates the windows' (already) large size, amplifying the effect.

HAWK21M · Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
So AI is not going to wait for the outcome of the GEnx failure investigation, it seems.

They should.....

Quoting xdlx (Reply 12):
No offense to anyone.... but it is highly unlikely that India will change the way they see and use air transport.
Air India will continue the way it has always been....

Don't generalize AI as INDIA....There are other operators out there too......& very professionally run one also......

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