FAA "Suspends Opposite-direction Operations"

bcoz · Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:58 pm

Hi folks-

My apologies if this was posted elsewhere, but I couldn't find anything on it in a quick search.

See the following story (AP) from the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...-11e1-8d48-2b1243f34c85_story.html

I'm trying to wrap my head around exactly how they are going to do this. How exactly are controllers going to be able to turn airports around now? Any thoughts or clarifications would be most welcome.

-bcoz

[Edited 2012-08-07 10:59:35]

IAHFLYR · Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:12 pm

Excellent media job, 3.5 lateral separation is not the correct standard!

Quoting bcoz (Thread starter):
How exactly are controllers going to be able to turn airports around now?

Actually it is fairly simple, hold inbound aircraft until all the departure traffic left over from the initial flow have left the area then resume arrival traffic in the new flow. Or, hold all the departures and taxi them to the new runway and wait until all the arrivals have landed in the previous flow.

Simple, but at the wrong time of day will be a complete delay machine waiting to happen.

IMHO, creating a national standardized procedure will take forever as some airports will suffer greater penalties due to their airport layout.

bcoz · Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 1):

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 1):
Actually it is fairly simple, hold inbound aircraft until all the departure traffic left over from the initial flow have left the area then resume arrival traffic in the new flow. Or, hold all the departures and taxi them to the new runway and wait until all the arrivals have landed in the previous flow.

Simple, but at the wrong time of day will be a complete delay machine waiting to happen.

I guess that was my thought. I can't imagine the delay consequences of having to turn a high volume airport (ORD, ATL, etc) around. I realize you'd rather be safe than sorry, but man...

stevenlee505 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:20 pm

Wait, so what happens to airports like LAX where they have an 'over-ocean' flow at night for noise abatement? Aircraft generally land on 6R, the north complex while aircraft takeoff on 25R on the south complex.

ikramerica · Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting stevenlee505 (Reply 3):
Wait, so what happens to airports like LAX where they have an 'over-ocean' flow at night for noise abatement? Aircraft generally land on 6R, the north complex while aircraft takeoff on 25R on the south complex.

I don't think it's an issue. They are not using the same runway or runway pair for both directions. The procedures have been in place forever at LAX. IIRC, no turns before coastline, all flights departing north complex must turn north, all flights departing south complex must turn south. Arrivals would be vectored the same way, north complex would arrive from North, south complex would arrive from south.

Goldenshield · Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:28 pm

This is really going to muck up airports that generally have one-way in/one-way out configurations, like Aspen, Sun Valley, and Telluride.

RL757PVD · Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:28 pm

Im guessing with an airport like ATL they could probably switch it over north side, then south side rather than all at once to help avoid/minimize any sort of massive delays.

An airport like LGA/JFK (intersecting) you could probably start to rotate the operation (90 degrees, then 90 degrees again)

roseflyer · Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:30 pm

Quoting stevenlee505 (Reply 3):
Wait, so what happens to airports like LAX where they have an 'over-ocean' flow at night for noise abatement? Aircraft generally land on 6R, the north complex while aircraft takeoff on 25R on the south complex.

With the FAA there is always a but and exception waivers. I'm wondering if LAX night ops might fall under that category.

MJBATC12 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:35 pm

I think this is a good idea. SInce I know about more of the ATC part of aviation since I'm studying it, some airports actually at night land one way, and depart another, like SDF. At night after 8 or 9pm local time, SDF ATCT lands 17R and departs 35R, or the other way around, something like that. They call that "contra-flow" if none of you know much about ATC. The article on the near trio of collisions at DCA because of "opposite direction operations" is rediculous because it said that PCT (Potomac TRACON) wanted to switch runways, which is incorrect. The LOCAL controller decides which runways and direction an airport will use, not a radar controller/TRACON. Who ever wrote that thing is beyond stupid and doesn't have enough insight into the ATC system and who decides what. It was hilarious when I read that, because DCA ATCT (LC, Local Control position) is the person who decides what an airport will be using flow or runway wise.

Just my $.02. Good move though, a little shaky doing stuff like that at SDF among others especially at night with a busy cargo hub.

[Edited 2012-08-07 11:36:27]

IAHFLYR · Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 8):
The article on the near trio of collisions at DCA because of "opposite direction operations" is rediculous because it said that PCT (Potomac TRACON) wanted to switch runways, which is incorrect. The LOCAL controller decides which runways and direction an airport will use, not a radar controller/TRACON.

If you read and can believe what is written, it mentions weather south of the airport. Well, it just so happens that a TRACON often does and will tell the tower they need to consider changing a flow because of the weather.

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 8):
Who ever wrote that thing is beyond stupid and doesn't have enough insight into the ATC system and who decides what. It was hilarious when I read that, because DCA ATCT (LC, Local Control position) is the person who decides what an airport will be using flow or runway wise.

While I am not a fan of most media as it pertains to different sectors of the aviation industry, it may be wise to not toss rocks based upon who does or does not have knowledge of the ATC system in the U.S.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 6):
Im guessing with an airport like ATL they could probably switch it over north side, then south side rather than all at once to help avoid/minimize any sort of massive delays.

Exactly what should happen at airports with the luxury of having widely spaced parallel runways and more, but we shall see how it shakes out.

maddogjt8d · Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 8):
The LOCAL controller decides which runways and direction an airport will use, not a radar controller/TRACON.

Sir, you need to get off of your high horse. Take a look at N90 - New York Tracon. JFK/LGA/EWR/TEB all have their runways and traffic flows decided by TRACON, not the local controller.

MJBATC12 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:20 pm

Quoting MaddogJT8D (Reply 10):

Quoting MaddogJT8D (Reply 10):
Sir, you need to get off of your high horse. Take a look at N90 - New York Tracon. JFK/LGA/EWR/TEB all have their runways and traffic flows decided by TRACON, not the local controller

Proof? High horse? Just showing what I know.. And how can N90 decide what runways to use when they're in a dark room where they don't have an active wind guage? That is simply incorrect. LGA has to co-inside with what JFK is using flow wise, and TEB has to do the same with EWR.... you're all wrong, there's some "high horsing" there sir.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 9):
While I am not a fan of most media as it pertains to different sectors of the aviation industry, it may be wise to not toss rocks based upon who does or does not have knowledge of the ATC system in the U.S.

I'm not throwing rocks actually. I'm just pointing out facts that most media don't know much about the air traffic system and how things are determined and used most times. No "rocks" are being thrown.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 9):
If you read and can believe what is written, it mentions weather south of the airport. Well, it just so happens that a TRACON often does and will tell the tower they need to consider changing a flow because of the weather

As to this, you're correct. PCT obviously has to vector aircraft around the weather, but they may "suggest" and see why I said "suggest" in quotations. Tower decides what an airport is using and when to change, not a radar controller in a dark room who doesn't have the proper wind guages and vision of conditions outside of a tower cab... just saying. DCA ATCT is a radar tower, they can very well see the intensity of any sort of weather via scope in the tower. If there is weather blocking an arrival or departure runway, PCT and DCA will coordinate to change the flow, PCT doesn't just get the green light and tell DCA what to use. Very wrong there.

[Edited 2012-08-07 12:23:55]

Caspian27 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 5):
This is really going to muck up airports that generally have one-way in/one-way out configurations, like Aspen

As I fly to ASE almost daily, I feel confident in saying that there's no way they could apply this here. We're not authorized to land on 33 and not authorized to take off on 15. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen aircraft land on 33 or take off on 15. Won't work here.

bomber996 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 1):
Excellent media job, 3.5 lateral separation is not the correct standard!

Actually the media is not completely off on this. Standard separation between aircraft is 3 nautical miles. This translates to about 3.45 statute miles. Remember, the majority of people in the US use statute miles, not nautical miles.

Sorry to nit pick.

{Peace}

MJBATC12 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting bomber996 (Reply 13):
Actually the media is not completely off on this. Standard separation between aircraft is 3 nautical miles. This translates to about 3.45 statute miles. Remember, the majority of people in the US use statute miles, not nautical miles.

Correct, and 1,000 feet vertical separation also

.

DashTrash · Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:32 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 5):
This is really going to muck up airports that generally have one-way in/one-way out configurations, like Aspen, Sun Valley, and Telluride.

That's what I was thinking. Someone's knee jerked again.

SPREE34 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 8):
SInce I know about more of the ATC part of aviation since I'm studying it,

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 8):
if none of you know much about ATC.

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 8):
Who ever wrote that thing is beyond stupid and doesn't have enough insight into the ATC system and who decides what

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 11):
Proof? High horse? Just showing what I know..

Which isn't much, starting with how to construct a sentence. You may be studying, possibly in a very good school, and, in here you have chosen to run your mouth in the presence of experienced controllers. Learn from what is going to happen to you here, so you don't go through it when/IF you ever make it to OJT.

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 11):
And how can N90 decide what runways to use when they're in a dark room where they don't have an active wind guage?

N90 DOES have a Wind Guage, in FACT, has the current weather at every airport under it's designated airspace. There, and at most large IFR facilities, flow direction is decided on many factors, not just wind. Your impression of a One Man Band incharge of the aerodrome is inaccurate.

[Edited 2012-08-07 12:46:36]

Silver1SWA · Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:54 pm

So how will this work at SAN? When runway 09 is in use for arrivals due to visibility, aircraft departing often use 27 to avoid weight restrictions on runway 09. With its one runway SAN is already a cluster-f...now it's really going to get messy.

MJBATC12 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):
N90 DOES have a Wind Guage, in FACT, has the current weather at every airport under it's designated airspace. There, and at most large IFR facilities, flow direction is decided on many factors, not just wind. Your impression of a One Man Band incharge of the aerodrome is inaccurate.

Thanks for the attack, again, I'm STUDYING sir. I'm just starting, wanna not be so nasty right off the bat? And your second fragment is correct, it is decided on many factors. I'm not starting an "impression of a One Man Band", because I'm going off what I've been told also. I have been in BCT/A90 and Y90 and don't remember seeing a accurate wind guage besides the reading from a METAR on the overhead WX screen for all of the facilities covered by that TRACON..

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):
Which isn't much, starting with how to construct a sentence. You may be studying, possibly in a very good school, and, in here you have chosen to run your mouth in the presence of experienced controllers. Learn from what is going to happen to you here, so you don't go through it when/IF you ever make it to OJT.

Sure, I'll be sure to take notes here than in class..... not. This isn't grammar school, it's a forum, I really don't care honestly. This isn't grammar school, and this also a complete waste of my time even responding to this when in reality, I was just sharing what I think, also called an "opinion" and from the small amount that I know so far. Give me a break, I'm just starting out. NO attack or pun intended in my original post, or any of my posts to add also.

[Edited 2012-08-07 12:57:27]

[Edited 2012-08-07 12:58:23]

[Edited 2012-08-07 12:58:54]

[Edited 2012-08-07 13:00:11]

maddogjt8d · Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 18):
Give me a break, I'm just starting out.

You can get a break by giving those with more knowledge and experience on this board a break first. Your original post came off as condescending and know-it-all on a topic on which you are just "starting out" in, when in fact, the info you are posting is incorrect and has now been verified by at least one other poster regarding N90.

There is much that can be learned from this forum and the great people on it, but it starts with a healthy attitude.

MJBATC12 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting MaddogJT8D (Reply 19):
There is much that can be learned from this forum and the great people on it, but it starts with a healthy attitude.

Alright. Sorry if it came down as condescending, it wasn't intended toward any members here. It was mainly toward the writer of the article about the story. Hopefully you know where I was coming from. I'll take a few notes then

. Again, sorry if anything came down condescending. Re-reading what I wrote, I screwed up. It's been over a year since I've been in a radar facility, just may not have noticed a active wind guage inside the radar room. Sorry again!

IAHFLYR · Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:20 pm

Quoting bomber996 (Reply 13):
Actually the media is not completely off on this. Standard separation between aircraft is 3 nautical miles. This translates to about 3.45 statute miles. Remember, the majority of people in the US use statute miles, not nautical miles.

Sorry to nit pick.

No nit pick detected however, separation is done in NM......just fact.

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 11):
but they may "suggest" and see why I said "suggest" in quotations. Tower decides what an airport is using and when to change, not a radar controller in a dark room who doesn't have the proper wind gauges and vision of conditions outside of a tower cab

You really do know what you know, I'll give you that. Have you ever been inside a TRACON of any size? Well the dark room has many gadgets such as TDWR, TDWR Ribbon Displays which provides the exact same wind information that a tower is receiving, and also the weather on a display the controller is looking at from the TRACON is a better source of seeing what the intensity a thunderstorm could be. A hard rain does obscure the view from a tower cab window from time to time as well as a storm off in the distance.

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 11):
Very wrong there.

I don't believe you are correct. In fact I know from experience.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):
Which isn't much, starting with how to construct a sentence. You may be studying, possibly in a very good school, and, in here you have chosen to run your mouth in the presence of experienced controllers. Learn from what is going to happen to you here, so you don't go through it when/IF you ever make it to OJT.

Well put SPREE and welcome back, I've missed your well thought out responses.

mmedford · Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 11):
Proof? High horse? Just showing what I know.. And how can N90 decide what runways to use when they're in a dark room where they don't have an active wind guage? That is simply incorrect. LGA has to co-inside with what JFK is using flow wise, and TEB has to do the same with EWR.... you're all wrong, there's some "high horsing" there sir.

The quote of the day, that one is priceless...

There is an OMIC @ N90 that has forgotten more about ATC, than you'll ever know...

Our NAS is linked in so many ways with different & segregated data streams it's insane; we know what's going on and can prepare for flights sitting on the ground on the west coast, for their arrival into the east coast. We don't have one, if not the most advanced ATC System in the world for nothing.

Rbgso · Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 5):
This is really going to muck up airports that generally have one-way in/one-way out configurations, like Aspen, Sun Valley, and Telluride.

Unless there is heavy GA traffic during high season, I doubt these places are busy enough for it to be a major problem.

mmedford · Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 21):
TDWR

I'd like to see you fit one of those in a tracon...lol

IAHFLYR · Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:39 pm

Quoting mmedford (Reply 24):
I'd like to see you fit one of those in a tracon...lol

It's easy, piece by piece but it has to be a very large TRACON! Boy did you nail me on that one! LMAO

Okay, a TDWR display.

mcoatc · Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 18):
Sure, I'll be sure to take notes here than in class..... not. This isn't grammar school, it's a forum, I really don't care honestly. This isn't grammar school, and this also a complete waste of my time even responding to this when in reality, I was just sharing what I think, also called an "opinion" and from the small amount that I know so far.

You sound like you lack the correct number of brain cells for rapid promotion within the agency. Here's to hoping that you've not invested too much money in that "education" you claim to be getting.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 22):
There is an OMIC @ N90 that has forgotten more about ATC, than you'll ever know...

That's my line of the day.

cschleic · Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 1):
Or, hold all the departures and taxi them to the new runway and wait until all the arrivals have landed in the previous flow.

This happened while I was on a recent AS flight out of Sea-Tac. Traffic was in a south flow. They changed to north flow, and we were the first flight in the change, so we taxied to south end and waited...and waited.... for opposite flow inbound to finish landing. Bummer was.... it was in the afternoon and south flow takeoff gives a better view of the airport right after rotation.

RaginMav · Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:43 pm

Quoting rbgso (Reply 23):
Unless there is heavy GA traffic during high season, I doubt these places are busy enough for it to be a major problem.

And there indeed is! There are eSTMP arrival slot restrictions for Aspen throughout ski season. It will be interesting to see how this is handled. The 'standardized procedure' necessary to lift the ban will not be ready before the snow flies.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 15):
Someone's knee jerked again.

IAHFLYR · Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting RaginMav (Reply 28):
The 'standardized procedure' necessary to lift the ban will not be ready before the snow flies.

It could be IF the local facilities were allowed to work out their own procedures, but then the Oversight Office would have to approve every single one of them and that would take till next summer if not longer.

Don't flame me, but when did just a little common sense get taken out of the world?

mark2fly1034 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:05 pm

Who ever was asking about Atlanta I spent a night in the hotel over looking the north complex and in the morning they changed ops from east to west and what I saw was the let everyone who was in line for 8R takeoff while they taxied new guys to 26L, when they were all gone they waited on the rest of the landing traffic for 8L and once they were all in the resumed normal operations in the other way. It seemed to go pretty smooth

SPREE34 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 18):
Thanks for the attack,

If you thought that was an attack, the OJT process will have you in tears on Day 1.

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 18):
I was just sharing what I think, also called an "opinion"

OK, when you have your first "Deal", tell the Quats office you thought you had separation, or, that in your opinion you had separation.

See? You are learning one of your first lessons in ATC training today. Controllers don't SPEAK unless they KNOW.

ATC is a great job. It is also one of the least forgiving environments, operationally, and interpersonally, you will ever see. Show your Know It All side as a trainee, followed by that Get Off My Back follow up you just gave me, and the guys and gals who have actually certified will make your life a Hell Satan himself wouldn't hang out in.

On the other hand, show your interest in learning and being good at it, and those same wolves will nuture you like your own mother. They want you to be good, because if you are not, they will have to clean up behind you. If they see you as weak, or worse, weak and arrogant, you're done.

Nobody at your first assignment is going to care that you have had a tour of N90, or any other facility. They aren't going to care what you think you know or have learned or where you learned it. Go in with mouth closed and ears open. Learn what they have to teach you, and use the knowlege you have gained in school and facility visits. Notice I said "use" the knowlege. Don't "talk" about it. If you have it, they'll see it, you won't need to tell them anything.

Good luck. Seriously. You obviously like it and want it. Just don't let your own view of things obscure the realities.

SPREE34 · Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 29):
Don't flame me, but when did just a little common sense get taken out of the world?

The Federal Aviation Act was signed August 23rd, 1958, so Common Sense went out, at least, 48 years ago.

mmedford · Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 32):
The Federal Aviation Act was signed August 23rd, 1958, so Common Sense went out, at least, 48 years ago.

Do you remember the "WE" video from a few years ago?

There is one of the quotes that I have never forgotten...

"When I was growing up, I either wanted to be an air traffic controller or be in the circus; then I joined the FAA and got to do both"

IAHFLYR · Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:48 pm

Oh so true and getting more rings each day. Things such as this are not systemic problems yet get treated like them.

Quoting mmedford (Reply 33):
"When I was growing up, I either wanted to be an air traffic controller or be in the circus; then I joined the FAA and got to do both"

Oh so true . Things such as the topic of this thread are not system wide problems yet get treated like them.

Mir · Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:49 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 5):
This is really going to muck up airports that generally have one-way in/one-way out configurations, like Aspen, Sun Valley, and Telluride.

My first thought when I read this was that ASE is going to get screwed. Hello, delays!

-Mir

Goldenshield · Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:05 pm

Quoting rbgso (Reply 23):
Unless there is heavy GA traffic during high season, I doubt these places are busy enough for it to be a major problem.

In the high season, you're going to be IMC the majority of the time---if you want to be safe, and not scud run, that is.

Mir · Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 36):
In the high season, you're going to be IMC the majority of the time---if you want to be safe, and not scud run, that is.

IMC or VMC doesn't really make a difference as to whether the airport is busy or not. I've been in there on a nice VMC day and they were still launching airplanes opposite direction. If they have to stop doing that, their capacity is going to go way down.

-Mir

Goldenshield · Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:14 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 37):

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 36):
In the high season, you're going to be IMC the majority of the time---if you want to be safe, and not scud run, that is.

IMC or VMC doesn't really make a difference as to whether the airport is busy or not. I've been in there on a nice VMC day and they were still launching airplanes opposite direction. If they have to stop doing that, their capacity is going to go way down.

Whoops. Silly me. I read "GA" and "VFR".

Gotta eat something, quick!

Anyhow, yes, those three cities (SUN, ASE, and TEX) see a LOT of ski traffic, both IFR, and VFR during the high season. And of course, the FAA throws in a special traffic management program because the traffic is so high (Airlines are exempt, though.)

COS777 · Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:03 am

I suppose it might mean that DEN can't do converging operations, landing on 16L/16R & 35L/35R continuously.

jdwfloyd · Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 8):

I've seen dozens of OJTs that came in with you attitude of knowing everything, and watch most of them wash out. A bit of friendly advice, you will know nothing of our job until you have a few years of training with live traffic. Come in eager to learn, don't tell the CPCs you work with what you know, show them. Controlling is not something you learn in a book or in a classroom, it's learned by doing. Arrogance as a trainee will not take you far, being humble while showing a eagerness to learn will.

As for the DCA incident, Potomac Tracon changed the runway because of the calm wind conditions and convective activity on the other approach. Runway changes can be initiated by local or approach. Doing the proper coordination is also a key factor in the process.

Shutting down opposite direction operation is a foolish knee jerk reaction by people who don't know the job. This will only last until the first dozen phone calls from the major airlines asking why fuel usage spiked all of the sudden.

spiritair97 · Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:57 am

I was spotting at PVD on July 27th of last year and they switched the runway while I was there. A US E190 was about to line up to go but the wind switched. They then held it at the end of the runway until a US E170 (*A Colors) and a US SF34 landed, then taxied it up to the other end of the runway (on the taxiway, which is what confused me about holding him down at the other end for so long) and went to PHL. It was interesting to observe and I wished I had had an ATC scanner to hear what they were saying. They held the E190 at one end for like 20 minutes before taxiing up to the other end!

727forever · Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:42 am

Quoting mmedford (Reply 33):

"When I was growing up, I either wanted to be an air traffic controller or be in the circus; then I joined the FAA and got to do both"

And Ray Lahood is the ring master, but what do you expect when you appoint folks who did you political favors into positions of authority rather than those who actually know the field that you have put them in charge of. This is another knee jerk reaction that will blow up in his face almost immediately. It was one screw up, not a system wide deficiency but

"Gentlemen, we've got to protect our phoney baloney jobs, we must do something about this, immediately, immediately, immediately, immediately! Harumpf, Harumpf, Harumpf"

In the mean time, I'll prepare for a great deal of extra pay from holding....

727forever

DashTrash · Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:04 am

Quoting rbgso (Reply 23):

Unless there is heavy GA traffic during high season, I doubt these places are busy enough for it to be a major problem.

ASE, EGE and TEX are slot restricted during the ski season. Not sure who controls those slots, but we see slot numbers on our releases going in there. It's also VERY common to get slowed, and slowed early for flow control.

Believe it or not, some of the worst takeoff lines I've ever seen were at EGE.

us330 · Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:20 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 43):
Believe it or not, some of the worst takeoff lines I've ever seen were at EGE.

I can certainly believe that. I can remember significant wait times between takeoffs and landings, and takeoffs and takeoffs. What's the usual procedure out of EGE in terms of time separation?

vinniewinnie · Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:43 am

Quoting 727forever (Reply 42):
And Ray Lahood is the ring master, but what do you expect when you appoint folks who did you political favors into positions of authority rather than those who actually know the field that you have put them in charge of. This is another knee jerk reaction that will blow up in his face almost immediately. It was one screw up, not a system wide deficiency but

"Gentlemen, we've got to protect our phoney baloney jobs, we must do something about this, immediately, immediately, immediately, immediately! Harumpf, Harumpf, Harumpf"

In the mean time, I'll prepare for a great deal of extra pay from holding....

727forever

As if Ray Lahood made the decision himself without any input from FAA people! Get real he probably proceeded with what he was advised to do considering the public outcry and other things.

And FAA are not a bunch of stupid people either... They sometimes make bad decisions but overall the system has been working pretty smoothly given the complexity of the task.

As people said above this ruling will probably be relaxed very soon through waivers and other subterfuges. The point is to get the media of the back of the FAA as well as as assessing what can be improved.

In terms of Airlines well that is part of the business environment. Did you complain as much after 9/11 when DCA was shut for a very long time? Was there any obvious threat? No not really but airlines suffered and had to suck it up for the good of the nation...

DashTrash · Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:48 am

Quoting us330 (Reply 44):
What's the usual procedure out of EGE in terms of time separation?

I think it depends on Denver Center's mood, and how many aircraft are coming out of the other airports nearby. Aspen ad Rifle are fairly nearby.

They definitely launch at a slower rate than primary airports though.

Maverick623 · Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:57 am

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 45):
As if Ray Lahood made the decision himself without any input from FAA people!

Likely from a bunch of other political appointees and/or PR hacks.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 45):

And FAA are not a bunch of stupid people either... They sometimes make bad decisions but overall the system has been working pretty smoothly given the complexity of the task.

Now you're just sticking your head into the sand. Understaffed facilities and controllers falling asleep at the scopes does not equate to "pretty smoothly" to me.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 45):
Was there any obvious threat? No not really but airlines suffered and had to suck it up for the good of the nation...

I'm confused... if there was no obvious threat, what "good" were they doing the nation?

runner13 · Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:12 am

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 31):
OK, when you have your first "Deal", tell the Quats office you thought you had separation, or, that in your opinion you had separation. See? You are learning one of your first lessons in ATC training today. Controllers don't SPEAK unless they KNOW.ATC is a great job. It is also one of the least forgiving environments, operationally, and interpersonally, you will ever see. Show your Know It All side as a trainee, followed by that Get Off My Back follow up you just gave me, and the guys and gals who have actually certified will make your life a Hell Satan himself wouldn't hang out in. On the other hand, show your interest in learning and being good at it, and those same wolves will nuture you like your own mother. They want you to be good, because if you are not, they will have to clean up behind you. If they see you as weak, or worse, weak and arrogant, you're done.Nobody at your first assignment is going to care that you have had a tour of N90, or any other facility. They aren't going to care what you think you know or have learned or where you learned it. Go in with mouth closed and ears open. Learn what they have to teach you, and use the knowlege you have gained in school and facility visits. Notice I said "use" the knowlege. Don't "talk" about it. If you have it, they'll see it, you won't need to tell them anything.Good luck. Seriously. You obviously like it and want it. Just don't let your own view of things obscure the realities.

Well said, very well said.

Quoting jdwfloyd (Reply 40):
Shutting down opposite direction operation is a foolish knee jerk reaction by people who don't know the job. This will only last until the first dozen phone calls from the major airlines asking why fuel usage spiked all of the sudden.

What's scary is that MCATC or whatever his name is will be the one making the rules in a few years.

OB1504 · Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:08 am

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 8):
SInce I know about more of the ATC part of aviation since I'm studying it

You may know more than the average layman, but keep in mind that the typical Airliners.net users knows more about aviation than most people to begin with. Couple that with the fact that a lot of the members are professionals who work in this field day in and day out, and the knowledge you may have gained from a few college classes and a TRACON visit or two doesn't really compare.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):
Which isn't much, starting with how to construct a sentence. You may be studying, possibly in a very good school, and, in here you have chosen to run your mouth in the presence of experienced controllers. Learn from what is going to happen to you here, so you don't go through it when/IF you ever make it to OJT.

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 18):
Thanks for the attack, again, I'm STUDYING sir. I'm just starting, wanna not be so nasty right off the bat?

If you're studying, and thus in the process of learning (which involves many, many mistakes), why are you so quick to declare your opinion as irrefutable fact?

Quoting MJBATC12 (Reply 20):
Alright. Sorry if it came down as condescending, it wasn't intended toward any members here.

Part of the negative impression was how quick you were to show off your knowledge of acronyms. I've taken ATC classes and I operate in the national airspace system on a regular basis, but I've yet to have to use most of the terms you've defined in regular radio communications.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 31):
If you thought that was an attack, the OJT process will have you in tears on Day 1.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 31):
See? You are learning one of your first lessons in ATC training today. Controllers don't SPEAK unless they KNOW.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 31):
Nobody at your first assignment is going to care that you have had a tour of N90, or any other facility. They aren't going to care what you think you know or have learned or where you learned it. Go in with mouth closed and ears open. Learn what they have to teach you, and use the knowlege you have gained in school and facility visits. Notice I said "use" the knowlege. Don't "talk" about it. If you have it, they'll see it, you won't need to tell them anything.

If he brags about his tour(s) on his first day, the most likely response he'll get will be "That means nothing to me."

Quoting jdwfloyd (Reply 40):
I've seen dozens of OJTs that came in with you attitude of knowing everything, and watch most of them wash out. A bit of friendly advice, you will know nothing of our job until you have a few years of training with live traffic. Come in eager to learn, don't tell the CPCs you work with what you know, show them. Controlling is not something you learn in a book or in a classroom, it's learned by doing. Arrogance as a trainee will not take you far, being humble while showing a eagerness to learn will.

This applies anywhere in the industry.

Quoting runner13 (Reply 48):
What's scary is that MCATC or whatever his name is will be the one making the rules in a few years.

Without an attitude adjustment, he won't last long enough to be making the rules.

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