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BestWestern
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 23):
Oh yeah - and why does Air India need a 3 class product on their 77Ls?

Its because AI is well known for its quality premium products, faultless onboard service, and fantastic dining experience. Because of this, they have a low density cabin.

They wish.

AI dream of being of a premium carrier, when in reality they are only chosen for price, not service.

So, never mind the DL config - AI should be flying these aircraft with a small premium cabin and a charter layout - something akin to the cabins AF uses on their long haul leisure routes.

Then, and only then, do AI have a chance of profitability.

Quoting garpd (Reply 31):
Small children do that. Not Airlines.

A lot of airlines are run by big egos who can never be wrong.
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BlueLine
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:52 pm

So how much compensation is AI going to demand from Boeing for duping them into purchasing such inefficient aircraft?
 
brilondon
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:56 pm

As stated above AI would think that a Cessna 182 was a gas guzzler and I don't think that AI is going to have the guts to tell it like it is and I would not be surprised if they try to return most of their fleet. A poorly run airline is always going to blame its equipment for its problems.
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Stitch
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:58 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 48):
AI wants to chase high end premium traffic with its interiors...

You haven't seen their 787-8 Business Class color scheme, have you.  
 
xdlx
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:02 am

Send them some IL96 see how they like them.......!
 
jetblast
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:15 am

Quoting na (Reply 9):
No one is interested (maybe because they ARE gas guzzlers?).

I'd say it's probably because I sincerely doubt AI has kept any maintenance records, and no one wants an airplane without all the books....
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jfk777
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:20 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 43):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 40):
They could have gotten -200ER but why would you ?

Because it would fit the mission they were aiming at a little better perhaps? It's still being built, Asiana just got a top up B772.

Asiana can fly a 777-200ER from Seoul to Europe and The USA even JFK nonstop. Air India would find a 777-200ER challeneged to make JFK from India. AI was right to buy 77W's, the 777LR's should work for AI. If they don't its an AI problem not a 777LR issue.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 53):
You haven't seen their 787-8 Business Class color scheme, have you.

Saw a photo its hidious, awful whoever chose that color should be shot.
 
BestWestern
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:41 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 56):
If they don't its an AI problem not a 777LR issue.

Its an AI issue and a market issue. India does not have the premium yield for non stop flights to the US. Who is left flying non stop?
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lightsaber
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:45 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
That seems to be the problem for AI: low premium demand.

There is AI's fundamental problem. ULH requires a premium RASM and AI is not in that market. Until they improve their soft product, it doesn't matter what they fly.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
As compared to, say, the A330, the 777 does burn more fuel.

And AI wasn't able to make money ULH, so the planes either sit or are uncompetitive on shorter routes.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
After all, if you fly more than halfway around the world, you went the wrong way!

As an a.nutter, wouldn't you want to fly as far as possible anyway?  
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 47):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
You can get a used A340-500 for a heck of a lot less than a new 777-200LR.

If you are considering either one as a private airplane I doubt that price is a very big issue.

SEPilot, we're talking large sums. Over $50M. Even those buying such a large VIP airframe must consider what else they could buy for that sum of money. I'm certain EK would *love* to start selling over their A345s (for the right price).

Quoting jetblast (Reply 55):
I'd say it's probably because I sincerely doubt AI has kept any maintenance records, and no one wants an airplane without all the books....

I hope that isn't the case as it can drop the resale value of a 77L by tens of millions.

I'm certain that once the 788 deliveries accelerate to 10 per month (next year), we'll see a drop in 77E and 77L resale values.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 53):
You haven't seen their 787-8 Business Class color scheme, have you.

I'm disturbed by AI's choice of interior colors... I would have to wear my sunglasses while boarding the flight.

Lightsaber
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INFINITI329
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:53 am

Quoting 135mech (Reply 7):
That would be great, however I don't think DL wants to spend the $$ to re-configure them and pay for it all. I am going out on a limb here and say that AI's upkeep might not be the greatest if they are constantly complaining about every $ they have to spend, and that may be why no one else wants them.

LOL It was joke about DL
 
aeroblogger
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:56 am

Quoting jetblast (Reply 55):
I'd say it's probably because I sincerely doubt AI has kept any maintenance records, and no one wants an airplane without all the books....

Why on earth would you think that?

AI most certainly has kept maintenance records as per DGCA regulations. In fact, AI operates some of the best maintenance facilities in India...

The facilities lose money hand over fist, but quality isn't compromised...

Quoting na (Reply 9):

They try to offload them since about two years. No one is interested (maybe because they ARE gas guzzlers?).

The reason nobody wants them is because 77Ls are best for ULH routes, and ULH routes just aren't that profitable.

[Edited 2012-08-21 18:23:33]
#AvGeek
 
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Stitch
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:58 am

Quoting na (Reply 9):
They try to offload them since about two years. No one is interested (maybe because they ARE gas guzzlers?). No wonder they are a bit unsatisfied.

The rest of the operators of 777-200LRs are not trying to offload their airframes and four more are on order, so I expect that guzzling gas is not a fault of the 777-200LR (at least in terms of per payload ton).  
Quoting jetblast (Reply 55):
I'd say it's probably because I sincerely doubt AI has kept any maintenance records, and no one wants an airplane without all the books....

That strikes me as unlikely, as not doing so would I think put AI at risk of having those aircraft banned from operating to the EU and the US.


I expect the real reason AI can't shift them is:

1) They want too much money for them, which makes them unattractive to potential new operators for the type;
2) Current operators of the 777-200LR either have all they need or have the balance on order with Boeing.
 
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DocLightning
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:24 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 58):
As an a.nutter, wouldn't you want to fly as far as possible anyway?

You know what? I love planes. I love takeoffs and landings. I *HATE* flying. Not fear or anything like that. It's the security, the waiting around, the uncomfortable seats, and the feeling like I'm in a small prison cell for hours on end. I'm way too hyperactive to enjoy flying for more than an hour or so.

My idea of the best flight ever? A 744 from SFO to LAX where I get to sit forward of the engines (preferably upper deck).
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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aerorobnz
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:36 am

I have read online somethere the 77L described in an article as "a flying fuel tank" by current NZ CEO - using as a reason they had not been ordered by NZ.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
aeroblogger
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:06 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 63):
I have read online somethere the 77L described in an article as "a flying fuel tank" by current NZ CEO - using as a reason they had not been ordered by NZ.

I think that's a great description.   

If only AI had realized this before they ordered....
#AvGeek
 
mark2fly1034
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:32 am

Im pretty sure all planes are "Gas Guzzlers" I dont see any of them getting 40mpg. Maybe it is time for a Hybrid 777
 
aeroblogger
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:44 am

Quoting Mark2fly1034 (Reply 65):
Im pretty sure all planes are "Gas Guzzlers" I dont see any of them getting 40mpg. Maybe it is time for a Hybrid 777

In 2000, the average commercial aircraft got 36.4 passenger miles per gallon, and that certainly has improved in the last decade....


The 777 probably gets well over 60 passenger miles per gallon, depending on the variant and individual configurations...
#AvGeek
 
TrentXWB
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:12 am

When I read the heading of the post, I thought that it was about the 77A, but then I realized that AI never had them. Calling 77L a gas guzzler is a bit too far fetched. The 77L was bought by AI for specific missions and I think the aircraft is well suited for the long range non-stop services. If AI cannot fill the seats and make profit, then it's the airline's problem and not the airliner's.
If the 77L was not suitable for them, they should have realized it before they ordered it.

[Edited 2012-08-21 20:18:33]
People who ignore the seat belt warning have never been through turbulance.
 
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Stitch
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:17 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 63):
I have read online somethere the 77L described in an article as "a flying fuel tank" by current NZ CEO - using as a reason they had not been ordered by NZ.

The 777-200LR can tank about 8 tons | 10,000 liters more fuel with the standard tank configuration (same as the 777-300ER and 777 Freighter).

I notice Boeing doesn't even bother to mention the fuel load with auxiliary tanks for the 777-200LR in the ACAP, I imagine because no customer has ordered them.
 
BestWestern
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:28 am

Quoting art (Reply 27):
The New York route alone made losses of more than $200 million for Air India annually.

At $4m a week, no 787 is going to solve that problem. This is a yield problem first and foremost.

I keep saying it - AI needs to become a High Density operator and get their CASM bekow EK to become profitable.

They need to fill high density 77Ws, non stop daily from 15 EurAsian cities. Forget the follies to Canada and Australia, This is what the indian population wants, not 34'' legroom and a more expensive fare on a 787. 29'' all the way, and squeeze every last penny out of the metal. Air India needs to be like Corsair, Scoot or the Air France COI operation.


Who ever thought that Indigo would be the largest airline in India?
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neutronstar73
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:32 am

Quoting 135mech (Reply 3):
I agree, you order the 777, it's for a reason! Those engines are HUGE and THIRSTY...

Ummm yeah...okay right. The 777's engines are huge and thirsty...yep. That's why it was killed in the market by the A340, 747 and A330. Sure killed off that gas guzzler.
 
timpdx
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:25 am

Hmm, I did not know AI offered 34" in Y. I actually would totally choose them for a trip I am thinking of taking based on that little tidbit alone. May not make them profitable, but 34" is a deal maker for me, OTOH, charter config for 15 hours is an absolute deal breaker for me, been there, done that. When I took EY to India seemed to have to good middle ground ~32" pitch, acceptable leg room and fantastic IFE. No way at any fare would I do charter from the US to India.
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ghifty
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:41 am

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 70):
The 777's engines are huge and thirsty...yep.

The GE90's ARE huge and thirsty compared to the other lower thrust engines. It's the fact that there's only two of them mounted on a 777 that makes the 777 better than the A340 in terms of fuel burn..

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 70):
That's why it was killed in the market by the A340, 747 and A330.

Airframes vs engines?   
Fly Delta (Wid)Jets

Comments made here reflect only my personal opinions.
 
PHX787
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:52 am

What the heck is AI doing here? Always complaining about Boeing.... I think they're trying too hard to get free money.

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 14):
IMHO Air India is eroding any remaining credibility they may have left in the marketplace, although the statement was made by an unnamed source. Just my   

   yeah they're pretty much done. Very much done.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 72):
The GE90's ARE huge and thirsty compared to the other lower thrust engines. It's the fact that there's only two of them mounted on a 777 that makes the 777 better than the A340 in terms of fuel burn..

Someone somewhere told me that the T7 was one of the most fuel efficient planes ever. I don't like bashing someone but AI really has something growing up their   
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JAAlbert
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:59 am

Quoting 135mech (Reply 7):
I don't think DL wants to spend the $$ to re-configure them and pay for it all.

Of course, Delta could just require that Air India refurbish the planes like it made SW do with the 717s!

It seems to me that you gotta look at the mission for the particular aircraft. A 380 is very efficient provided you fly it far enough and have a decent passenger/cargo load, but fly it empty over short distances and you've got an expensive gas guzzler. Same with the 777 I imagine.
 
ghifty
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:47 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 73):
Someone somewhere told me that the T7 was one of the most fuel efficient planes ever.

Probably is true (over specific routes, naturally).

It's one thing to say an engine is "huge and thirsty".. but in the end the only thing that matters is *how* said engines are put to use. In the 777 series' case, the pairing is done quite well.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 73):
Always complaining about Boeing.... I think they're trying too hard to get free money.

After seeing the first six words in the thread title I didn't even have to look at the rest, in light of their recent, er, musings shall we say.
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pvjin
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:32 am

Yeah Air India always complaining about something, I wonder when they will stop it. Indian government should stop backing them, maybe then they would get bought by some other company or go in bankrupt and complaining would stop.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
parapente
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:13 am

This is marketing theory being played out in reality.It was accepted that the only way to counter the new middle eastern giant hubs with their A380's and 773's was by offering a premium non stop service.It would always be more expensive as you burn fuel to carry fuel - but you get the advantage of not stopping.

The reality is that people are choosing to one stop and pay less. Would it work with 50 pax less (787)? I doubt it.Not in the present economic climate anyway. The middle easterm A380 hub 'steamroller' just continues.For countries in this geographical position trying to fly to the USA I feel it's curtains.
It was probably worth a try (what else could they do) - just has not worked , thats all.
 
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zkojq
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:17 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 12):
How many -LRs are flown by these "barons?"

77L operators from the mid-east:
Emirates - 10
PIA - 2
Qatar Airlines - 9
Ethiopian has five, but they aren't from the middle east.

Total civilian Boeing 77L fleet should be 52, therefore 21/52 (about 40%) of the world's 77Ls are operated by middle eastern airlines. This doesn't include the VIP variants as mentioned below, but does include the Air Austral's second 77L which hasn't been taken up.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Aren't there a few VIP 77W's?
Quoting Stitch (Reply 29):
Boeing has sold one 777-200LR VIP and one 777-300ER VIP.

Three 777-200LR VIPs:
- EZ-A777 which is operated for the Turkmenistan Government.
- VP-CAL whose owners are concealed by its registration and lack of a livery (I would love it if someone in the know PMed me about who bought it).
- 3C-LLS (now CS-TQS) which is owned by the government of Equatorial Guinea and was to be operated by their national airline, Cebia Intercontinental, until they were banned from operating in the EU. Now it is operated by the Portuguese company White Airways.

Only one 777-300ER VIP, from memory.
- A6-SIL which was built for Jet Airways but not taken up and has been sold to the Royal Flight of Abu Dhabi.
First to fly the 787-9
 
CXB77L
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:23 am

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 1):
My opinion is that when the fox can't reach the berry, he'll say its sour. If you have to sell your wares to look for some kind of profit, it not the machine that faulty, its the operator. They knew what they were buying and furthermore its a 777-LR. Lets see what kind of efficiency they would have gotten from a A340-500 or -600?!?

  

A bad tradesman blames his tools, and that is precisely what AI are doing.

Quoting na (Reply 5):
The 777LR isnt exactly a fuel saver. And time moves on. The efficient aircraft of yesterday are the gas guzzlers of today, and the 787 surely beats the 777.

The 777-200LR uses less fuel and carries more payload than the A340-500, and flies further to boot. It is the most fuel efficient ULH aircraft that money can buy today. The 787 doesn't quite have the range of the 777.

That said, for India - JFK, the 787 can make the route fairly easily.

The problem with AI's 777-200LRs is that they cannot make best use of it. It's not the aircraft's fault that the airline is mismanaged. The article says that the 777-200LRs have too much capacity for the route. Perhaps they would've been better off buying A343s or A332s and fly them weight restricted to JFK. It's not the aircraft's fault that they bought the wrong plane for the job.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 20):
I thought the 77W burns less fuel as compared to the A330.

Per seat, yes. Per trip, no.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 24):
I am calling pure BS on this one. IF DL and AC can make it work, then there is no reason that AI can not.

  

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 25):
The 77L's seat costs are astronomical compared to the 787, which is replacing it.

That may be, but the 77L has more capacity and more range than any 787. The fact that AI don't need that extra capacity and range is hardly the 777's fault. It's AI's for buying the wrong plane in the first place.

Incidentally, what are the cargo loads like on routes to JFK? The 777-200LR can fly about 7600nm still air range without payload penalties, so it should be able to make DEL-JFK (6359nm great circle) without any weight restrictions. The 77L isn't a one trick pony; it can be used quite profitably on non-ULH routes if there is a strong cargo demand.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 25):
The people saying that the 787 is the lifeline aren't the same people who are delaying the 787 or trying to sell the 777.

Sounds to me like AI can't make up their minds.

Quoting art (Reply 27):
Sounds like Air India has insufficient demand to warrant a 777 on the New York route. That's not the aircraft's fault. It's Air India's fault if the aircraft is the wrong size for the route.

You have to ask how Air India managed to lose money at a rate of $200+ million a year on one route yet not do something to correct the situation earlier.

  

Quoting garpd (Reply 31):
And there we have the crux of the matter. They are using a large, powerful jet on routings which are no where near what it was designed for. If a 787 is to replace it on the same routes and is expected to be far more efficient on them, then those routes were never ideal for the 772LR

A bad cook always blames his ingredients.

AI fouled up and they're out to pin the blame on anyone but themselves. Small children do that. Not Airlines.

  

Quoting Stitch (Reply 68):
I notice Boeing doesn't even bother to mention the fuel load with auxiliary tanks for the 777-200LR in the ACAP, I imagine because no customer has ordered them.

It does.

In the August 2009 ACAP, it's in 5.4.4. Three auxiliary tanks give an extra 21,000L / 5,550 gallons, which gives 202,283L in total. If my maths is correct, then that works out to be 162,397kg, or about 17t more than the standard 777-200LR without auxiliary tanks.

[Edited 2012-08-22 02:27:55]
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
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EPA001
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:47 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 79):
Sounds to me like AI can't make up their minds.

At present the whole picture that AI is showing looks messy and quite uncoordinated. I think they need a very, very serious management and culture change in this company. If they can not fill the B77L (which is not the largest airplane around capacity wise) in a strong growing economy of a country with approximately 1.2 billion people, they are doing something seriously wrong imho. This just adds to the embarrassing B787 delivery circus that AI made.  .

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 79):
It does.

In the August 2009 ACAP, it's in 5.4.4. Three auxiliary tanks give an extra 21,000L / 5,550 gallons, which gives 202,283L in total. If my maths is correct, then that works out to be 162,397kg, or about 17t more than the standard 777-200LR without auxiliary tanks.

Do you by chance know which customer(s) have actually made use of this option and ordered the extra auxiliary fuel tanks?
 
777way
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:49 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 61):
2) Current operators of the 777-200LR either have all they need or have the balance on order with Boeing.

I doubt erither of the two factors appplies to PIA, I think thry were suckered into buying them, maybe they can get the 748 too this way even if its just two of them.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 78):
77L operators from the mid-east:
Emirates - 10
PIA - 2
Qatar Airlines - 9
Ethiopian has five, but they aren't from the middle east.

Pakistan is not a Middle eastern country, so PIA does not belong in the list, and barons? I wish.
 
CXB77L
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:09 am

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 80):
Do you by chance know which customer(s) have actually made use of this option and ordered the extra auxiliary fuel tanks?

As for as I know, ET has selected that option. I'm not aware of any other airlines that have, although there could be others.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
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EPA001
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:14 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 82):
As for as I know, ET has selected that option.

Thanks for your quick reply.  .
 
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zkojq
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:35 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 81):
Pakistan is not a Middle eastern country

Depends where you define the middle-east as.

Quoting 777way (Reply 81):
barons? I wish.

Good point.
First to fly the 787-9
 
ghifty
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:43 am

Does AI mean "baron" in the "king" context or the "industrialist" context??

Quoting 777way (Reply 81):
Pakistan is not a Middle eastern country, so PIA does not belong in the list, and barons? I wish.

What is it considered to be then?

I was taught that the Middle East consists of the land between Libya (West) and Pakistan (East).. so, I suppose, Pakistan is just the Far East? Not trying to argue, I'm truly curious..
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ebj1248650
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:16 am

You have to wonder if Air India management has begun to give thought to just being quiet for a while. Their international reputation, with passengers as well as other airlines, lending institutions, and aircraft manufacturers, is definitely on the line here and there appears to be no effort to reverse the present course.

So, if they finally take delivery of the 787s and still aren't making the kind of money they want, will they then turn around and blame Boeing for producing a defective airliner? They can only do this for so long before the whole thing blows up in their faces, if it hasn't already.
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sunrisevalley
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:30 am

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 63):
I have read online somethere the 77L described in an article as "a flying fuel tank" by current NZ CEO - using as a reason they had not been ordered by NZ.

I think this is being a little disingenuous. A 77L could haul as much as a 48t payload ORD-AKL for a fuel burn of ~110t. I suspect this burn is not much different than a fully loaded 77E LAX-AKL.
 
Burkhard
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:35 am

I tried to find out where AI flies the 77L.
Dubai-Mumbai what a waste, an A333 would do this much better.
Mumbai-JFK yes that is a route for the 77L, if this does not make money than you should forget about ULR.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 20):
I thought the 77W burns less fuel as compared to the A330. Or do you mean the 777-200(ER/LR)?

The 77W burns less fuel per seat compared to the A333 - but the A333 beats any 777-200. AFAIK even the A340-600 has a better fuel per seat than any 772, but is beaten by the 77W no doubt.
 
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HAWK21M
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:40 am

Firstly I'd never believe an undisclosed official statement.......unless its officially stated and having data provided to substantiate the same.....
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
CXB77L
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:59 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 88):
but the A333 beats any 777-200.

No it does not.

http://boeingblogs.com/randy/archive...2011/03/the_games_people_play.html

The 777-200 has a 12% larger cabin area than the A333, so configured with the same density, the 777-200 should have more seats as it can fit one extra seat per row both in economy and in business. The possibility of fitting 10-abreast on the 777 would tilt the CASM advantage in the 777's favour even further.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
Burkhard
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 90):
No it does not.

Yes it does. A333 OEW 274,500 lbs B77L OEW 320,000 lbs . So when you go from A333 to B77L you get 12% more floor space for 16.5% more dead weight - makes no sense.
If you need the range above 7000 miles, the 77L is fine, below that it is a gas guzzler - to much aircraft for too little need.
 
JOYA380B747
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:13 pm

The sad fact of the matter with AI is that all this criticism against this rotten junk of an airline won't fix anything, never. Dictatorship has slowly crept into this bureaucracy, those at power have been having too much of it.

So be it a 777, 787, 797 or whatever, AI will remain what it is. Its best if Boeing and Airbus shut their doors to it. But that wouldn't be possible would it?   
India's biggest loss w.r.t global aviation (so far) - Being an Australasia-Europe stopover.
 
CXB77L
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:25 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 91):
Yes it does. A333 OEW 274,500 lbs B77L OEW 320,000 lbs . So when you go from A333 to B77L you get 12% more floor space for 16.5% more dead weight - makes no sense.

Nice try, but you said the A333 beats any 777-200, you didn't say 777-200LR.

The 777-200LR has far more payload and range capability than the A333, to the point that those two cannot reasonably be compared as equals. The competitor to the A333 is the 777-200ER, not LR, and even then, the -200ER is a heavier, thirstier per trip aircraft but with additional passenger capacity and range capabilities over the A333, which amounts to a CASM advantage, depending on the route and the configuration.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 91):
If you need the range above 7000 miles, the 77L is fine, below that it is a gas guzzler - to much aircraft for too little need.

  

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 79):
The 777-200LR can fly about 7600nm still air range without payload penalties, so it should be able to make DEL-JFK (6359nm great circle) without any weight restrictions. The 77L isn't a one trick pony; it can be used quite profitably on non-ULH routes if there is a strong cargo demand.

That AI couldn't make the 77L work for them on the JFK route is entirely their problem, not the plane's.

[Edited 2012-08-22 05:27:37]
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chrisnh
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:28 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 2):
I see this as part of AI's never ending 787 compensation/purchase strategy.

"Dissssssss-count."
 
Burkhard
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 93):
The 777-200LR has far more payload and range capability than the A333, to the point that those two cannot reasonably be compared as equals

My reference was to Mumbai-Dubai, which is 1200 miles, This can easily be done by even an A321-100 - I believe that any 777 just is too much aircraft for such a short trip - with exception of the early 777-300 maybe due to its large capacity.
 
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Stitch
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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 86):
So, if they finally take delivery of the 787s and still aren't making the kind of money they want, will they then turn around and blame Boeing for producing a defective airliner?

AI filed such a compensation claim against Boeing at the same time they filed their delivery delay compensation claim.
 
dennys
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RE: Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting na (Reply 16):
Quoting N62NA (Reply 12):
How many -LRs are flown by these "barons?"

As for VVIP-jets, none as much as I know. The 777 is a flop with VVIPs, even the A345 sold more.
I think they mean the oil-rich countries´ airlines. Emirates, Qatar, they operate a good number of 777LRs built. But also neighbour PIA, and I havent heard complaints from thats side.


this topic was a question . The Indian government could take two A345 ( 2nd Hand) for VIPs trips
 
windowflyer
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RE: Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:39 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
After all, if you fly more than halfway around the world, you went the wrong way!

Love this quote. Some way, some how, I'm going to find a way to use it.

Obviously Air India has issues. Unfortunately they display it much as a disfunctional 8 year old would.
A-300,319,320,321,330,340,380. B-727,737,747,757,767,777,787. L-1011,DC8,DC9,MD80,CRJ,Dash-8,YS-11,HS-748,Concorde
 
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135mech
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RE: Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.

Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:39 pm

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 70):
Quoting 135mech (Reply 3):
I agree, you order the 777, it's for a reason! Those engines are HUGE and THIRSTY...

Ummm yeah...okay right. The 777's engines are huge and thirsty...yep. That's why it was killed in the market by the A340, 747 and A330. Sure killed off that gas guzzler.



Well, you definitely took that out of context...great job! If you would have actually read the whole entry, you might not have had that response...Here's the rest of it for you:

Quoting 135mech (Reply 3):
...however for what it does and it's capabilities it's a great acft.



The 77L and 77W have the largest thrust engines in the world...they use Fuel, but the acft performance for the designed purpose make them efficient.
135Mech

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