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LAXintl
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:46 pm

AA tells APA how it plans to begin implementing the pilot changes.
Long process commencing in November that will take till 2014 to complete.

Pilots learn American Airlines’ schedule for implementing changes
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...ule-for-implementing-changes.html/

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ckfred
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 98):
AMR notifies the TWU it intends to shut the AFW maintenance base in December. 1,100 positions eliminated.
Total maintenance staff cuts systemwide will be 1,708 according to the company.

Not completely related to this thread, but:

A. Who will be getting the outsourced work?

B. Is AA keeping certain aircraft models in-house and outsourcing others? Of are certain aspects fo aircraft maintenance across the fleet being outsourced?

C. What happens to the Rolls-Royce engine maintenance facility at AFW? The number of AA planes with RR engines is going to decline over time. The 757s will slowly disappear. AA's 787s will have GE engines. None of the 737s or Airbuses have RR engines. If AA takes delivery of any 772s in the future, those will be the only new aircraft with RR engiens.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:01 pm

Well the approved contract allows for 35% of AA's annual maintenance spend (wages, material) to be contracted out.
It also allows various reduction or reassignment of work at individual stations which represents about 15% savings.

Last document I have has the following current airframe work going outside -
6 lines of 737 work
4 lines of MD80 work
2 lines of 757 work
1 line of 767 work
1 line of 777 work.
Additionally internally some shifts will take place such as DFW will pick up a former AFW 777 special visit line, and TUL picks up a 767 line.
For other items - blade and vane shop, window shop, 777 seat, 767 thrust reverser, flight controls and door shop will also be outsourced.

In the future, both the A319 and 777-300 fleets are slated to be outsourced.

Any new work (eg future fleet types) will also be subject to the 35% provision, however AA does have flexibility if economics of scale for individual items don't lend to inhouse work. They also have ability to now not have to hire local AA personal at larger overseas stations but instead use contractors for line work. (EZE, SCL, GRU, GIG, LHR, NRT)


Regarding TAESL, this is a joint-venture with Rolls Royce and no changes are projected. Interestingly actually AA said is expects TAESL volumes would grow as it can bring in more outside customer work aboard once AA work volume decreases in the coming years. They expect TAESL to remain competitive. So its not the end of the world for those guys.
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TWA85
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:13 pm

As expected, the AA pilots are not happy about the terms of an imposed contract from AA.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/union-...ader-says-aa-pilots-204349270.html

Is there any plan for further negotiations to come up with a consensual labor agreement, or will the imposed contract be the status quo for the time being? It will be in the best interest of all parties involved for AA and the APA to negotiate a consensual agreement prior to exiting bankruptcy, or AA faces the possibility of a post bankruptcy strike. Also per flightstats.com, AA has already canceled 85 flights today and has an average on time rating of 67.5%. This is an obvious sign that the pilots are beginning to take matters into their own hands. How long does AA plan to survive like this?
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 103):

It's going to get very interesting here. Also , APA is refusing to be AA's messenger. AA is having to deal directly with the pilots. There is an inordinate amount of confusion among the pilots. Not good here right now. No surprise, I am sure.

[Edited 2012-09-17 10:04:34]
 
justplanenutz
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 103):
As expected, the AA pilots are not happy about the terms of an imposed contract from AA.

Two questions:
1) Which demographic at APA is the angriest?
2) What buyout number would it take to allow them to move on to something else?

I presume those stuck at the bottom of the seniority list for a decade are the most unhappy. AA appears to have about 2,500 surplus pilots ( I am guessing somewhat here based on 1,000 active and 1,500 on furlough). If a consensual agreement with APA is not in the cards, why not take the additional savings from the term sheet (vs. TA) and spend that buying out that surplus? Hopefully, this would:
1) Create a less senior pilot group (read less expensive)
2) Allow AA to hire off the street going forward (again, less expensive)
3) Replace disaffected pilots with new hires (who know and accept the deal going in)
4) Provide upward pilot mobility, increasing pilot pay along the way
4) Be a one-time expense and not increase structural costs

I know normal retirements (200-300/year) and the end of the age 65 retirement holiday would eliminate the surplus over time, but the pilot group would still be very senior and most likely unhappy. It seems to be me that a buyout targeted at the middle of the seniority list could be a positive step towards resolving this dispute.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 105):
1) Which demographic at APA is the angriest?

All!
 
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LAXintl
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:34 pm

AA has to come to an agreement with its pilots as working under an imposed agreement is far from productive in the long run, and leaves a huge unknowns as AA tries to craft a post BK business plan.

Even the judge when granting the 1113 motion emplored the parties to work it out:

“Let me just say one last thing. Just because this is a renewed motion doesn’t mean that it’s any less difficult for purposes of employees. I have a lot of sympathy for the employees, the pilots, just as I did when we had our original trial. It’s a set of circumstances that nobody is happy about. And I wish you all good luck in trying to work out an agreement and hope that the good faith that was evident in earlier discussions carries over to any discussions moving forward.

“And so I hope that all the parties can move beyond my ruling today to do what they’re going to have to do, whether I rule for American, for the pilots, for anyone, which is to come up with an agreement, and that is something that’s got to happen.

“And in some ways I’m the most important person here, because I have to issue a ruling, and in some ways I’m the least important person here because I have no ability to actually work out an agreement between American Airlines and the APA, and that’s something that you all have to do and I have no power to do it for you.”




And related -

APA will appeal the judges ruling to a Federal Appeal Court.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...ver-contract-rejection-ruling.html

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justplanenutz
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 106):
All!

I understand that none are happy with the present situation, but it has been a very long time since the opposite was true. 39% are obviously and recently less unhappy than the others. Were those the near-retirement folks who wanted to lock in the equity stake and then ride out only a few more years? And, of the 61%, how many would be mollified by the prospect of near term advancement and attendant pay raises?
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 108):
I understand that none are happy with the present situation, but it has been a very long time since the opposite was true. 39% are obviously and recently less unhappy than the others. Were those the near-retirement folks who wanted to lock in the equity stake and then ride out only a few more years? And, of the 61%, how many would be mollified by the prospect of near term advancement and attendant pay raises?

Both the yes voters and no voters were spread out fairly evenly as far as I can tell. I honestly don't know what it will take. Folks on both sides have to realize that going forward, AA has be fe cost competitive. However, they are restructuring in Chapter 11. They are not bankrupt. With 5.5 billion in cash, the pilots wan't to be competitive with the industry, not below and there is no reason to be. Management and the UCC want to get their money from the employees and that alone is not right.

And for the record, I voted yes.
 
TWA85
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:45 pm

[quote=aluminumtubing,reply=109]

With out saying if it is right or wrong, the primary force driving behind AA's desire to have labor contracts below industry standards is to make up for what AA has lost out to their competitors since their other have emerged from their own bankruptcies. AA might also be trying to prevent what happened between 2003-2007. After AA's employee's agreed to steep concessions to avoid bankruptcy back in 2003, which by far was VERY commendable on the employee's part, AA's competitors managed to undercut AA's labor costs while in bankruptcy which rendered the already steep concessions of the AA's employees virtually ineffective. By makings more drastic cuts now, it prevents AA's competitors from undercutting AA's labor costs again in the future whether it be via new consensually negotiated contracts or the worst case scenario another trip through bankruptcy. Once again, this doesn't make AA's decisions any more right or wrong. AA decisions just demonstrates that AA doesn't want to be just competitive, AA also wants to thrive after bankruptcy.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:03 pm

TWA85....

Trust me, I understand what you are saying. I certainly would like to be competitive. I don't need to be at the top. There is a difference between needing to be competitive and what AA is doing. Currently, management is being very childish and vindictive. And yes, you can say so are the unions. I work here day in and day out. I know exactly what is going on.

A serious game is being played out right now. It would behoove AA management, the UCC and APA to get together and fix this. The alternate is real and it is not pretty.
 
TWA85
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:21 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 111):
A serious game is being played out right now. It would behoove AA management, the UCC and APA to get together and fix this. The alternate is real and it is not pretty.

Agreed! Hopefuly an agreement can be made before it is too late.
 
SJUSXM
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:35 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 111):
Currently, management is being very childish and vindictive

When all the other work groups accepted 17% cuts, and the pilots didn't but were offered the same thing. How is that being vindictive? If the company offered 17% and then imposed 17% after a no vote, what would have been the incentive for the pilots to vote yes in the first place? By placing 20% cuts, which was the original plan, the onus goes back to the pilots to come back and start talking again and maybe compromise for the first time in five years.
AT7, ER3, ER4, ER5, CR7, E70, E75, F100, M82, M83, 722, 732, 738, 752, 762, 763, AB6, 320, 321, 772, 77W
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:38 am

Quoting SJUSXM (Reply 113):
the onus goes back to the pilots to come back and start talking again and maybe compromise for the first time in five years.

The pilots have been compromising far more that the media portrays. I can assure you, I know exactly what the pilots have been offering. They had been going to meetings far more prepared than management both prior to and after the filing.

The pilots offered some very innovative options to the company which they completely ignored that truly would have been a win for both sides. It involved both productivity and flexibility. APA with the help of ALPA presented many proposals complete with cost / benefit analysis.

Are you an AA pilot privy to all the facts and dealings?

Also, I truly hope I don't come across as superior, but the pilots come with significantly more education, training and responsibility than most of the other employee groups by and large. In fact the mechanics and pilots are the highly skilled workers, and feel we / they should not be lumped into the same group as some of the others. Flame me if you will, but that is the reality of the situation. So is the law of supply and demand. Hence a compromise needs to be found.

And again, for the record, I am not a union radical. I in fact voted yes.

Also, I can assure you that the APA is not calling for any illegal actions. In fact, the leadership has gone out of its way to make sure nothing illegal is occurring. I am also under the impression that the pilot sick list is lower than historical norms. In fact, according to the computer information, most pilots are still flying their full regular schedules. The company has been short on pilots for a long time.
 
SJUSXM
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:25 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 114):
Are you an AA pilot privy to all the facts and dealings?

Also, I truly hope I don't come across as superior, but the pilots come with significantly more education, training and responsibility than most of the other employee groups by and large. In fact the mechanics and pilots are the highly skilled workers, and feel we / they should not be lumped into the same group as some of the others. Flame me if you will, but that is the reality of the situation. So is the law of supply and demand. Hence a compromise needs to be found.

I am not an AA pilot.
I applaud you for voting yes.

So following your logic, you shouldn't be grouped with the others because of a larger education base and cost to become a pilot/mechanic. Thus you should take fewer concessions? But, you're already compensated more than the other groups like the flight attendants. So that gap according to you should increase instead of stay the same. I'm not lumping in the non-union employees here, because they're going to get the same % concessions as everyone else without having to vote for it.

This last week, I saw a pilot talk a flight crew into what eventually resulted in a cancelled flight because of an INOP lavatory. Long story behind that one.
Two pilots in a massive shouting match at the gate area that had to be broken up by the station manager.
A pilot walk off the flight three minutes prior to departure to get paperwork, then get 'lost'. That's what he said I kid you not.
And another flight delayed by three minor mx issues that I was informed by the gate agent that would have normally just been passed on and dealt with in the hub at the completion of the flight.
While the union leadership has continually, and rightly so, argued against illegal actions, there are large pockets of the membership that are taking things in their own hands and in turn screwing many of the other employees that then have to deal with customers. The front line (nonunion!) employees are the ones that are dealing with the consequences of increased mx writeups and shenanigans.

Causing an operational nightmare for the airline will only result in disaster that will cost plenty of jobs. They're shooting themselves in the foot.
AT7, ER3, ER4, ER5, CR7, E70, E75, F100, M82, M83, 722, 732, 738, 752, 762, 763, AB6, 320, 321, 772, 77W
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:50 am

Quoting SJUSXM (Reply 115):
So following your logic, you shouldn't be grouped with the others because of a larger education base and cost to become a pilot/mechanic.

Yes, that is correct.

[Edited 2012-09-18 04:24:48]
 
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moo
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:59 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 104):
APA is refusing to be AA's messenger. AA is having to deal directly with the pilots.

If that is true, as the designated union the pilots have chosen to represent them, how are they not already the legally nominated messenger? If APA is refusing to get involved between the company and the employees it has been chosen to represent for this, that has to have negative knock on effect in future negotiations...
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:22 am

Quoting moo (Reply 117):

APA is willing to meet at any time in an attempt to reach a solution that will work for BOTH sides. However, APA is tasked with the administration of a contract, but one does not exist.
 
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moo
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:53 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 118):
APA is willing to meet at any time in an attempt to reach a solution that will work for BOTH sides. However, APA is tasked with the administration of a contract, but one does not exist.

In any other situation, the APA would be screaming bloody murder if AA management were to talk to their members directly, there would be legal threats and all sorts of things...

APA are the chosen representation of their members, so if they aren't representing them they are skating on very thin ice imho. They are doing this to be deliberately difficult - and courts love that.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:51 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 119):

They may not be representing the pilots in a manner YOU feel is appropriate. It will take BOTH sides showing give and take. I know, it's all the pilots fault.
 
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par13del
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:53 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 84):
Otherwise AMR will sit in a holding pattern trying to craft its future business plans without a solid foundation to emerge from court protection.

Ah no, I think the Chpt.11 laws were changed to prevent other following UA's example, fuel is not unlimited on this flight, they will be coming down, how is the real question  
Quoting TWA85 (Reply 103):
This is an obvious sign that the pilots are beginning to take matters into their own hands. How long does AA plan to survive like this?

AA, the creditors, the pilots, the board?????

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 107):
AA has to come to an agreement with its pilots as working under an imposed agreement is far from productive in the long run, and leaves a huge unknowns as AA tries to craft a post BK business plan.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 107):
Even the judge when granting the 1113 motion emplored the parties to work it out:

To my mind the wrong people are doing the talking and being takked to, the Creditors are the ones who are the driving force behind everything, management is supposed to be their mouth piece just like the unions are for the workers.
It seems as if the creditors want to have their cake and eat it too, as one suggested, maybe they should sit at the table rather than send their proxy, time is rapidly running out.
Even if new management is bought in the creditors and their mandate will remain the same, unless its not about the deal but who is dealing the cards.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 121):
To my mind the wrong people are doing the talking and being takked to, the Creditors are the ones who are the driving force behind everything, management is supposed to be their mouth piece just like the unions are for the workers.
It seems as if the creditors want to have their cake and eat it too, as one suggested, maybe they should sit at the table rather than send their proxy, time is rapidly running out.
Even if new management is bought in the creditors and their mandate will remain the same, unless its not about the deal but who is dealing the cards.

All sides need to sit down and come up with a solution that provides some compromise (wins and losses) for all sides. Either that or ALL sides lose ALL. It's kind of like Congress, isn't it.
 
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moo
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 120):
They may not be representing the pilots in a manner YOU feel is appropriate. It will take BOTH sides showing give and take. I know, it's all the pilots fault.

My point stands - in any other circumstance, the APA would be threatening all sorts of things if AA management talked directly to APA union members rather than through APA themselves.

They can't have it both ways - if they aren't dealing with AA on this issue, and instead (as you suggested) are forcing AA to talk *directly* to the pilots, then they are skating on very thin ice with regard to future negotiations. APA have used legal processes to put themselves between AA and the pilots - if they are abandoning that position in this case, thats some interesting precedent AA can use in the future.

I don't feel that this form of "representation" is appropriate, because it isn't representation - if of course what you suggested is at all true.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:49 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 123):
They can't have it both ways - if they aren't dealing with AA on this issue, and instead (as you suggested) are forcing AA to talk *directly* to the pilots, then they are skating on very thin ice with regard to future negotiations.

I absolutely guarantee you, that if the company wants future negotiations, they will have them with the APA. We will have to agree to disagree on the "tactics".
 
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moo
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:53 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 124):
I absolutely guarantee you, that if the company wants future negotiations, they will have them with the APA.

Then what are you talking about?
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 125):
Then what are you talking about?

Maybe I was not being clear. The APA as we know, is the bargaining representative of the pilots in the service of AA. They negotiate and administer the contract for AA pilots. They were unable obviously to negotiate a contract. AA was granted the ability to void the contract, which they did. The leaders of APA said without a contract, they will not make AA's life easier by explaining the new work rules to the pilots. That would be helpful to AA, and besides, without a contract written in stone, the possible constant changes could make the job impossible for them anyway. So, they decided that without a contract, they (APA) had nothing to administer. So, without a contract for APA to administer, it was AA's job to try to explain all the new work rules, etc to the 8000 pilots individually. And trust me, there is a lot of confusion. Both sides claim they want a consensual agreement. As soon as AA says they want to talk, APA will be there in an attempt to negotiate a contract. APA still represents the pilots, but until AA is ready to talk, there is not much they can really do.

I know it is easy to blame the pilots for everything. We can be part of the solution if management is serious. Most pilots I fly with are ex military officers and trust me there is more honor in one of their fingers than the entire bodies of most management types at AA who have only served themselves. Corny....maybe, but.....
 
incitatus
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 114):
And again, for the record, I am not a union radical. I in fact voted yes.

Eventually you will come to terms with what is happening.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
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LAXintl
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:57 pm

Busy agenda this week in court.

o Further extension to negotiate covering entire Embraer fleet
o About two dozen professional services and expense reimbursement request from vendors assisting with the BK
o Expense claim from Willis Lease Finance for required engine refurbishment on rejected leases
o Order modifying automatic stay to allow action to commence and proceed to judgment against American Airlines in Los Angeles Superior Court.
o Motion for relief of stay on pending litigation against AMR Corporation in US District Court NY
o Proposed orders granting objection to claims
o Motion approval to pay certain workers comp fees
o Approve settlement respective to 4 Fokker F-100 aircraft and pass through trust agreement – N1402, 1403, 1404 and 1405
o Authorizing entry into new lease transaction for four MD-80 aircraft and subject 1991 series bonds
o Renewed motion by US Bank Trust for adequate protection for property
o Authorizing AMR to enter into sale/lease back transaction with Guggenheim Aviation Partners covering 2 B777-300ER aircraft
o Motion authorizing AMR to renew insurance programs and grant security interest
o Assumption of various airport leases and operating agreements at ABQ and CMH
o Hearing to establish procedure for handling of facilities revenue bond guarantee claims
o Application to employees Zolfo Cooper, LLC as financial advisors on retiree committee
o Authorization to employ Deloitte Financial Advisory Services as consultants
o Hearing to authorize AvAirPros to provide supplemental benchmarking, business negotiation and financial analysis
o Authorizing the employment of Haynes and Boone, LLP as special counsel
o Approving claims objection procedure
o Extension of time to assume or reject various property leases and operating agreements at ORD, LAX, SFO, STL,. BNA, MSY, JFK, RDU, RNO and DTW

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aluminumtubing
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:14 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 127):

Absolutely true! And I am fully prepared to abandon this ship if necessary when it sinks. I am just contributing a pilots perspective.

[Edited 2012-09-18 08:21:19]

[Edited 2012-09-18 08:49:29]
 
justplanenutz
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 122):
It's kind of like Congress, isn't it.

Not exactly the best benchmark for making hard, reality-based decisions! Seems to me Congress generally looks for the short-term path of least resistance and not what is in the long-term best interest of the country. But, that is another story....
 
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LAXintl
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:38 pm

AMR bondholders getting nervous as the value of their aircraft collateral diminishes.


AMR bondholders demand payment, say planes neglected
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/amr-bo...mand-payment-planes-214430659.html

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ckfred
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 102):
In the future, both the A319 and 777-300 fleets are slated to be outsourced.

What about the A321s? Will they be outsourced with the A319s, or will that stay in-house?

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 109):
Both the yes voters and no voters were spread out fairly evenly as far as I can tell. I honestly don't know what it will take. Folks on both sides have to realize that going forward, AA has be fe cost competitive. However, they are restructuring in Chapter 11. They are not bankrupt. With 5.5 billion in cash, the pilots wan't to be competitive with the industry, not below and there is no reason to be. Management and the UCC want to get their money from the employees and that alone is not right.

But, while AA had over $5 billion in cash, it also used that cash to tied them during the bankruptcy. Most debtors, including UA, DL, and NW, had to find debto-in-possession financing (DIP), which often carries a hefty interest rate. I'm not a BK expert, but the DIP lender certainly wants to get paid, especially if the debtor has to convert from a Chapter 11 filing to a Chapter 7.

By filing Chapter 11 with a healthy cash balance, AA saved itself a lot of money on interest, plus that is one less entity that has to approve everything.

The one question that I would like answered is what ownership interests did pilots at NW, UA, and DL get upon exit from Chapter 11? Granted, airlines are lousy investments. Jim Cramer has said repeated not to invest in airlines for the long term, but rather only for the short term, if you do a good job of following stock picks.

One has to assume that the new AMR stock will increase over time, assuming that AA starts to expand and starts to get some corporate contracts that it lost to DL/NW and UA/CO.

I know a lot of people who have said that they had wished they had taken the stock, rather than the cash, because the stock would have been more profitable 5 to 10 years later.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 131):
AMR bondholders getting nervous as the value of their aircraft collateral diminishes.

I highly doubt that AA is neglecting airplanes. A friend of mine is an AA pilot for almost 23 years, and he's never felt that AA has neglected mainentance or deferred maintenance as long as possible.

What probably has bond holders upset is that once AA retires the MD-80s, they will just become scrap. The price of oil has made them virtually impossible to resell. The 757s, on the other hand, can probably keep on going hauling freight or going to airlines that just never buy new planes.
 
b377
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:11 am

Latest court update courtesy TWU.org:

A hearing was held before the bankruptcy court today (9/20/2012) in connection with various matters, most of which were not contested. In particular the court approved the following unopposed motions:
1. Motions to approve nineteen (19) interim and/or final fee applications of various professionals (i.e. various law firms, financial advisors and accounting firms) retained by either American or the Creditors Committee for the period starting November 29, 2011 and ending March 31, 2012;

2. Motion filed by American to approve Fee Letter to pay fees and expenses of an ad hoc group of American note holders . The fee letter authorizes American to pay the hourly legal fees (and expenses) of the ad hoc group and a $150,000 monthly fee to the ad hoc group's financial advisor. The fees and expenses will only be paid for work performed in connection with due diligence in connection with exploring the ad hoc group's interest in possibly providing financing for a plan of reorganization.

3. Three motions filed by American to approve three settlement/restructuring agreements with respect to certain aircraft leases;

4. Motion filed by American to approve administrative procedures for filing and processing objections to claims;

5. Motion filed by American to approve renewal of insurance premium financing agreement;

6. Motion filed by American to assume certain leases of non-residential real property;

7. Three motions filed by American to amend or supplement retention agreements for the following professional firms (a) Deloitte Financial Advisory Services, (b) AvAirPros and (c) Haynes & Boone (special counsel)

8. Motion filed by Section 1114 Committee of Retired Employees to retain Zolfo Cooper, LLC as bankruptcy consultants and financial advisors;

9. Five motions filed by American objecting to claims of certain creditors who assert claims for goods delivered to American within 20 days of the filing of the chapter 11 case. These types of claims are entitled to priority and payment in full under section 503 (b)(9)of the bankruptcy code. To the extent creditors filed responses to the objections, the matters will be adjourned to a date to be determined.

In addition to the uncontested matters, the court heard and denied two motions and adjourned one motion filed by creditors.AMR A summary of these three matters are set forth below:

1. The court denied the motion of the AMR Retirees Pension Protection Corp. ("RPPC") seeking reimbursement of professional fees and expenses for making a "substantial contribution" to the bankruptcy case under section 503 (b)(3)(D) and (b)(4) of the Bankruptcy Code. RPPC, a non-profit entity funded by certain retirees, previously filed a motion earlier in the case seeking the appointment of an official committee of retirees. Before the motion was heard, the U.S. Trustee appointed a retiree committee because American sought to amend its retiree benefits. Under the Bankruptcy Code the appointment of a retiree committee is required when a debtor seeks to modify retiree benefits. The U.S. Trustee, American and the Creditors Committee objected to the substantial contribution motion primarily on the basis that the retiree committee was appointed by virtue of the requirements of the Bankruptcy Code as opposed to the actions of the RPPC. The court agreed with the objecting parties and denied the motion.

2. The court denied the joint motion of Manufacturers and Traders Trust Company, as indenture trustee, and Marathon Asset Management, LP to establish procedures for adjudicating certain revenue bond guaranty claims. American and the Creditors Committee objected to the motion on the grounds that American, as the debtor, has the right to control the timing and process for commencing litigation relating to claims that may be disputed. The court agreed with American and the Creditors Committee and denied the motion.

3. The court adjourned a motion filed by U.S. Bank Trust National Association, as trustee, (the "Trustee") for an order conditioning American's use of certain aircraft in which the Trustee holds a lien upon American's payment to the Trustee of adequate protection payments. The Trustee holds a lien on certain aircraft and engines (the "Collateral") to secure a claim in excess of $450 million. The Trustee claims that the value of the Collateral is decreasing and that it is entitled to receive adequate protection payments from American to protect it from the risk that the Collateral will decrease to the point that it will not be sufficient to cover the amount of the claim that is secured by the Collateral. American and the Creditors Committee objected to the motion on the grounds that the value of the Collateral is well in excess of the claim amount and, therefore, the Trustee is not at risk and is not entitled to adequate protection payments. The court did not rule on the motion but instead adjourned the hearing to a date to be determined so that the parties can present testimony regarding valuation and other issues that may be relevant.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:23 am

Quoting ckfred (Reply 132):
But, while AA had over $5 billion in cash, it also used that cash to tied them during the bankruptcy. Most debtors, including UA, DL, and NW, had to find debto-in-possession financing (DIP), which often carries a hefty interest rate. I'm not a BK expert, but the DIP lender certainly wants to get paid, especially if the debtor has to convert from a Chapter 11 filing to a Chapter 7.

I fully understand all that (DIP financing, etc). I am quite well versed on the subject. My point is that AA is not bankrupt. They absolutely needed to file chapter 11 and reorganize to reduce their bloated cost structure, labor included. Agree or not, the pilots feel that AA is over reaching on what they expect out of the pilots. And as a moderate, I do as well. I don't know the amount of stock some other airlines were offered. I think Delta may have paid in cash versus stock. I would be more apt to invest in a company making square wheels than in an airline.

[Edited 2012-09-20 18:38:35]

[Edited 2012-09-20 18:41:35]
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:22 am

Quoting ckfred (Reply 132):
By filing Chapter 11 with a healthy cash balance, AA saved itself a lot of money on interest, plus that is one less entity that has to approve everything.

They are already paying interest on that money!
 
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LAXintl
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:51 am

Quoting ckfred (Reply 132):
What about the A321s? Will they be outsourced with the A319s, or will that stay in-house?

Not announced. But considering A319s will be handled by vendors, I can see the logic of doing same with the A321.

AA can probably get away by not handling an entire family of planes in house.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 132):
I highly doubt that AA is neglecting airplanes.

Maybe not neglecting on purpose, but the shape of aircraft has been less than ideal.
Reminds me of Pan Am in later years.

In my court summaries I've had a couple court items where leasing companies and banks putting in for claims on returned aircraft and engines. Aircraft have been returned in less than ideal and contractually required condition costing these parties added expenses. Most recently Willis Lease Finance had claims for added engine refurbishments.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
commavia
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:05 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 136):
Maybe not neglecting on purpose, but the shape of aircraft has been less than ideal.
Reminds me of Pan Am in later years.

  

Oh please. I should no better than to be surprised, but it's hardly that bad.

I would certainly agree that AA has some planes looking quite old and worn - in particular the ones that will be heading to Roswell within a matter of months - but I wouldn't go as far as you did in describing the AA fleet. In general I don't find AA planes any particularly worse that those I've been on of late at Delta, USAirways, etc. - I think just about all the major U.S. airlines are about the same in that regard nowadays.

And, needless to say, seeing as AA is now taking delivery of shiny, brand new 737s at a rate of nearly 1 per week, I think things are generally heading very much in the right direction when it comes to the state of AA's fleets - both inside and out.
 
futureualpilot
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:43 am

I'll preface this by saying I received this second hand and I was told this was written by a 737 FO at AA. I know the a.net crowd loves to dump on pilots, but before you do any further, give this a read:




"I'm just here to do a job, my job.

5:00 AM show for a 6 o'clock go in SFO this morning. Took the 4:40 shuttle from the short layover, and after 4 stops, got through security at 5:10. Straight to the jet which sat all night.

Parking brake pressure sat around 2,000 PSI, in the orange band.
3 of the 4 main tires with low pressure.
A chip in a fan blade in the left engine.
Cracked taxi light.
2 of the 3 exterior emergency exit placards under the FO window deteriorated.
Exterior Evacuation Slide placard on the forward galley door deteriorated.

Did I mention this thing sat all night at a maintenance base?

Anyway, a MX team showed up to work. Then they quit. Apparently AA schedules a maintenance shift change right at the morning push with all the so-called critical flights. New team shows up. Work is being done with all the passengers politely watching from their assigned seats. Departure time keeps getting pushed back. At 7:00, the #1 tells us the flight is canceled and they're deadheading on the 7:10 flight to DFW. So are we. Maintenance tells me the jet is OTS because 2 brake metering valves are leaking.

We gather our stuff, (well most of it, my CA left his earpiece in the jet), and head to the new gate. A manager, Kevin, is working the 7:10 flight. He's stressing. Tells us he's putting us on the next flight, not this one, and to leave him alone. No problem, just means we will be late for our return flight, but we aren't in charge of manning, deadheading, scheduling or SFO, so we sit in those cool round red chairs out of the way and watch the show. Long lines, cell phones out everywhere, agents gate checking bags, and the manager running around trying to keep up.

7:10 comes and goes. The gate door is shut. A gate agent makes the following page in the terminal, "Kevin, return to gate 57. The captain (working the flight) wants to talk to you." Kevin refused to talk to him. The door opens again, and agents are sending down more passengers. Important-looking people are talking to their respective travel departments and jockeying for position at the gate to get the last few seats. Apparently, they tried to close the flight out with 20 empty seats and a long line at the gate from our canceled flight. The captain called bull[Content Deleted].

Our names are called. We weave through the important people to the gate. The agent looks at us, "What's up?" "We don't know, you called our names." "Oh, you're deadheading?" Again, we don't know. "Go sit down." OK.

5 minutes later, our names are called again. "You're on. We're checking your bags." "How will we get our bags in DFW?" They are "Escort Tagged". They will be brought up the jet bridge in DFW with strollers and wheel chairs. "OK, cool". All middle seats in coach, my favorite! We push at 7:33, 23 minutes late. Critical flight canceled and another D+23... We arrive in DFW A+8...

On a side note, our crew breakfasts were not provided on the deadhead, so we hadn't eaten since the night prior.

Our departure back to SFO was scheduled at 12:40, so we figured AA had the flight boarded and ready. We are standing on the jetbridge waiting for our bags. Passengers are deplaning. They're done. The crew leaves and another shows up. Still no bags. Oh , and no keys or vests to go find our bags. We wait. After all, baggage handlers know how to do their jobs, and it's not my job to prod everybody along. We're all highly trained professionals. They board the next flight so we clear the jetbridge into the gate area. They finish and the agent asks us what's going on. We tell her the story. She goes to check. At that time, almost an hour after we arrived, crew tracking calls. "Why aren't you at the next flight?" Captain tells her our story. Here we are. No bags, no manuals, no keys, no nothing. Oh and by the way, we haven't eaten since last night. Tracking says nourishment's hotels and limos' arena.

Tracking calls back. She called the ramp manager. The ramp manager gave her the crew chief's cell phone number. She asked the chief about our bags with the "Escort Tags" on them. He told her no way was he going to carry them up the jetbridge stairs so he left them on the ramp. After a while, he took them to baggage claim. She said he was pissed. We told her that's fine, just have them delivered to the departure gate, which did board on time, ready to go at 12:40. It's now 13:40-ish.

Nobody can deliver our "escort bags" to the new gate, so we go outside security and grab 'em. Come back through security in D, catch the train over to C and to the new gate. No agent, door shut. (Remember when a key would allow us to get to the jet? Not my problem anymore.) Screw it. I walk to McDonald's. Did I mention we hadn't eaten since the night before and it's 14:00 now?. I get back to the gate. The captain's studying the 18-foot-long flight plan. The agent lets me down the jetbridge.

Upon entering the jet, the flight attendant says, "Can you make a PA and tell these passengers why you're late?" She's standing next to a first class passenger in the galley. I say, "Well hi there, I'm Bill. How are you?" Eyeballing my little McDonald's bag, she says, "I'm not getting paid, we boarded over an hour ago, and I can't get off to get food like you have." "Hey I'm sorry, we haven't eaten since yesterday. We deadheaded in and AA lost our bags." I look at the passenger and say, "Hey there, how are you? Can you believe AA would lose our luggage?" He understood and was in a good mood. No problem with him. Just the FA.

I walk around the jet. The captain comes down and we start making our nests. "Cabin's ready." SLAM. Ahhhh, peace behind the cockpit door. I've come to really like that door over the years. We're loading the box, flipping switches, all that cool stuff we do before we get paid. DING, DING. Captain answers, Yes? "Why aren't we moving yet?" Well, we just got here. Now we're running all those checklists we do before we go fly. A few minutes later, DING, DING. Yess? "Can you make a PA and tell these passengers why we're still sitting here?" I'm not making this up.

Finally time to push. 14:50 local. D+130 minutes. BANG. The tow bar breaks. DING, DING. Yesss? "What was that??" Don't worry about it. We have it under control. Please let us do our jobs. MX inspects the jet. No problem. Meanwhile, the agent lets PAX off - without their bags... We can't leave without them. We finally push at 15:52 local. D+192.


After the flight, one of the passenger got in the captain's face as he was deplaning, pointed his finger in his face and said, "You're a THUG! A union THUG! The captain replied, "Sir, you don't know me, but I assure you I'm nothing like that." Yes you ARE! A union THUG! and left.

Maintenance came on and asked who the thug is. Captain fessed up. He laughed. Then he talked about a flight that canceled this morning because the crew "wrote up 19 items 20 minutes before departure". He got a bull[Content Deleted] look from the captain. Then he said, "Of course, the jet did sit here all night with our night shift."

We get to the hotel and on the elevator. A guy says, "Hey, you're not the pilots that just came in from Dallas..." We braced and admitted it. No punches, but he said, "We heard you went to lunch before coming to the plane." He knows that not to be true now.


The hardest part about this day was refraining from repeatedly stepping into the other departments and telling fellow employees what needs to be done. It is engrained in usto anticipate and fix problems we see coming. Once I overcame the urge to tell others how to do their jobs, it actually became quite entertaining to watch the operation.

[Edited 2012-09-20 22:45:53]"

[Edited 2012-09-20 22:47:52]
Life is better when you surf.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:31 pm

According to APFA, 2205 flight attendants opted to the early out option by yesterdays deadline.

Also TWU says its work groups (mechanics and related) had 1226 elect to take the money and run.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
HPRamper
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 139):
According to APFA, 2205 flight attendants opted to the early out option by yesterdays deadline.

Also TWU says its work groups (mechanics and related) had 1226 elect to take the money and run.

How much of a dent does that make in the workforce? And were those numbers part of those who were issued layoff notices, or is this a whole different group above and beyond the layoffs?
 
OB1504
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:11 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 140):
How much of a dent does that make in the workforce? And were those numbers part of those who were issued layoff notices, or is this a whole different group above and beyond the layoffs?

I think they're part of those who were issued layoff notices. The union has said that it is working to reduce the amount of involuntary layoffs by as much as possible, and that they're hoping that maybe only 40% of those told their jobs were at risk will actually end up on the street with nothing.
 
ckfred
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:56 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 134):
My point is that AA is not bankrupt.

If your liabilities are greater than your assets, then you are technically bankrupt. Granted, the average person who buys a house maybe be bankrupt, but unless he has large credit card bills, selling the assets pays the bills.

AA could sell all of its assets, and still not have cash to pay all of its bills. Thus, the Chapter 11 filing.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 134):
I would be more apt to invest in a company making square wheels than in an airline.

But, there are plenty of suckers who think that when a company goes public, the stock will always run up. Ask anyone who bought Facebook.

By the same token, people will always apply the Peter Lynch principle (If you buy a good or service, and everyone else buys that good or service, invest in the company). I had AMR stock for a long time, because I'm a loyal AA flyer, and many of my friends were flying AA becuase it was the preferred carrier with their employers, especially after the United. sickout in 2000.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 135):
They are already paying interest on that money!

That may be, but they are probably paying a lower rate, because the cash was had through loans secured by aircarft and other assets. DIP financing is basically secured by nothing except the company's good faith effort to reorganize and exit bankruptcy.
 
flyfree727
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:50 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 140):
How much of a dent does that make in the workforce?

I would expect to see AA recruiting FA's by years end...

AA ORD
 
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LAXintl
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:31 pm

A few short items this week

o Negotiations extension covering 3 B777 aircraft - N760, 761 and 784
o Approving retention of SkyWorks Capital, LLC as advisers

=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
TWA85
Posts: 361
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:20 pm

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/americ...-ready-resume-talks-013034366.html

AA has requested to resume negotiations with the APA. Hopefully a deal can get done this timae around given the amount of chaos going at AA for the time being.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:29 pm

A busier week for court.

o Motion by APA for stay of 1113 order rejecting CBA pending appeal
o Allow Willis Lease & Finance claims for required overhaul and repairs of rejected engines returned in conditions failing to meet air worthiness standards with missing parts and records.
o Authorize assumption of certain unexpired leases of real property along with payment of cure amounts at RIC, CLE, MDT and TUL
o Authorize rejection of certain leases and real property at SFO, MSY, IND and MCI
o Extension of time to assume or reject leases or real property at LAX, JFK, SHV, TUL, OKC, SJU, RNO, and EWR
o Motion extend automatic stay in various pending litigation against AMR Corp.
o Motion to authorize American Eagle to make payment and exercise purchase agreement with Premier Engineering
o Auhorize sale of real property in Tucson Arizona (former reservations call center)
o Authorize to retain and employ Grant Thortnton LLP as consultants
o Authorize AA to enter into sale/lease back transaction with Avalon Aerospace covering 5 737-800 and single 777-300ER delivery.
o Motion to authorize AMR to seek and obtain secured aircraft financing and grant security interest liens.
o Motion to authorize AMR to seek refinancing of existing loans relating to aircraft
o Setting date for motion of Bank of New York for adequate protection as indenture trustee
o Approve settlement agreement covering single MD-80 aircraft - N59523
o Approve settlement agreements covering 5 B757 aircraft - N614, 626, 629, 632 and 648AA.
o Extension of time to negotiation covering 1 MD-80 aircraft - N495AA
o Extension of time to negotiation covering 1 B757 aircraft - N636AM
o Extension of time to negotiation covering Embraer regional jet fleet.
o Motion by Aeritas for payment of administrative expenses related to patent infringements
o Agreement between Wells Fargo Bank and Willis Lease Finance covering aircraft and engine claims


=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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LAXintl
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:36 pm

Eagle ALPA pilots approve their term sheet proposal by 75-25% margin.

Story:
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...ve-their-tentative-agreement.html/

=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
TWA85
Posts: 361
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RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:56 pm

What is the status of the most recent negotiations between AA and the APA?
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AMR Bankruptcy Court Thread Part 3

Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 148):
What is the status of the most recent negotiations between AA and the APA?

No one really knows for sure. I spoke with a senior manager of the flight department that I had on my flight yesterday, and he said he was optimistic. His words, but I would take everything from either side at this point with a grain of salt. We received an email from our local APA reps yesterday stating they started negotiating in ernest yesterday (Monday) after dealing with preliminaries last week. They stated the APA board / negotiators told AA that a LBFO2 was dead in the water if that was their intent. That, and a email to the pilots from the APA negotiating committee stated they would not present the pilots with any contract offer from AA that would not be industry standard. I have met our negotiated committee chairman, and I believe him to be an above board guy with integrity. The APA stated that we should know by the time the APA board of directors meet starting next Monday, whether or not AA is serious about coming up off the LBFO. I honestly think you will see both sides compromise in the short term, and that we will have a industry standard contract. That of course includes the good and the bad. In other words, Delta/United pay, but their scope provisions as well. In my heart of hearts, I think something may come out of this. It has to, because the alternative is pretty damn ugly. The good news, is that things are pretty quiet right now. Quiet is always good. It usually means something is going on. These are just the facts as of right now. I personally see some potentially interesting twists and turns that could occur, but right now, I am just waiting and hoping we might hear something by the middle of next week as to where this is headed.

[Edited 2012-10-09 13:35:40]

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