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tayser
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AC & Australia

Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:14 am

I was reading on Travel weekly that AC are moving YVR-SYD to 10x weekly seasonally over December/January utilising 77Ls (extra flights are Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays ex Van.) - where are AC finding that extra plane to do the seasonal services?

Reason I ask - Australia's and Canada's bilateral only stipulates 14x frequencies and 2 ports in either country (Sydney & Vancouver the only two ports designated at the moment, with 1 more in each country free) that can be served by the respective country's carriers - how far off could AC be from potentially starting YVR-MEL with 77Ls if they've found an extra plane for the two months over the (aus) summer period?

Clearly not every person they aim to carry across the big pond will be from Sydney and no doubt the QF interlining that exists will be expanded temporarily to fill the extra seats on the 77L - is it too far fetched for AC to maybe start YVR-MEL-YVR 3x weekly at some point next year etc? 3x weekly would probably suit the local MEL O&D well and boosted by the shorter connection times on QF interlining / feeder flights from ADL/PER....

77L would be able to make the journey unhindered (an extra 45-50minutes flight time over YVR-SYD), and perhaps the 788... 77W might struggle (like VA's 77Ws do from LAX) on occassion.

Is the extra 77L coming off AC's other routes to Asia or Europe or just surplus?

thoughts?
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC & Australia

Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting tayser (Thread starter):

Is the extra 77L coming off AC's other routes to Asia or Europe or just surplus?

Other than the week over Christmas, Dec/Jan is a very slow season on the Atlantic. In fact, the first two weeks of December and the last three weeks of January are a great time to non-rev! That being the case, it is not too hard a stretch to imagine a long haul wide-body would be free during this time.

In answer to your other question, YVR-MEL has been mentioned on two occasions ... A new route when the B787 arrives, and a potential new route for the new Pacific LCC.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Kermode
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RE: AC & Australia

Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:16 pm

AC's 77L's operate to HKG, PVG and SYD all from Toronto with the exception of the SYD flight which is via Vancouver. From December 15th to January 31st, YYZ-PVG is being switched from 77L to 77W. The two 77L's coming off this route will be moved to other routes. One will be placed on YYZ-FRA and the other on YVR-SYD. This new flight will not have service continuing to Toronto.

All this info was from airline route. A very handy website. http://airlineroute.net/2012/08/23/ac-w12update5/

Its great to see more flights to Sydney! I've heard that it is quite a popular route for air Canada and incredibly profitable. Most likely uplifting lots of cargo as well. Also these times are for Australian skiers coming up to British Columbia to ski in our winter. And I'd presume there are quite a few vacationers wanting to get down to Australia to escape the Canadian winter.

It'd be great to see a MEL service soon! But air Canada don't have enough a/c it seems. Using a 77W would have the range but most likely would suffer penalties as I believe they did when they used to operate this route, before the 77L's arrived. I think if the lease with air India hadn't fallen through, we could've seen more service to Australia sooner!

Hope this answered your questions
Kermode
 
beechnut
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RE: AC & Australia

Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:31 pm

Doesn't AC have a few new 77W on order? Perhaps this additional capacity could free up a 77L or two.

Beech
 
Kermode
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RE: AC & Australia

Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:42 pm

Quoting beechnut (Reply 4):

Yup! They sure do. According to boeing they have 3. But when this order was announced there seemed to be some confusion as to wether it was just the 3 or if they were also the customer behind the unidentified order for 2 more.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: AC & Australia

Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:05 pm

The 777's (my recall is a total of 5) will not arrive in time to start this new frequency. It will be aircraft moved off of most likely European runs as mentioned above. Unless that is a quiet period YYZ to China.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: AC & Australia

Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting Kermode (Reply 3):
Its great to see more flights to Sydney! I've heard that it is quite a popular route for air Canada and incredibly profitable. Most likely uplifting lots of cargo as well

Great to see a "thumbs up" for an aircraft ( 77L) that is maligned by some. It is all about the right match of equipment and using it properly . AC can operate the route at max. volume limited payload . Cargo capacity is between 18 and 21t depending on density plus 280-seats at about 27t of payload for a total of at least 45t depending on load factors.
 
multimark
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RE: AC & Australia

Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
In answer to your other question, YVR-MEL has been mentioned on two occasions ... A new route when the B787 arrives, and a potential new route for the new Pacific LCC.

AC served MEL from YVR briefly just before 9/11. I assume it was a 767 routed through HNL?

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 6):
Great to see a "thumbs up" for an aircraft ( 77L) that is maligned by some. It is all about the right match of equipment and using it properly . AC can operate the route at max. volume limited payload . Cargo capacity is between 18 and 21t depending on density plus 280-seats at about 27t of payload for a total of at least 45t depending on load factors.

Why waste one on YYZ-FRA?
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: AC & Australia

Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:02 pm

Quoting multimark (Reply 7):
Why waste one on YYZ-FRA?

Have you considered it might be the best available plane for the job for that time frame ?
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: AC & Australia

Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:03 pm

Quoting multimark (Reply 7):
Why waste one on YYZ-FRA?

FRA is a very good cargo destination for AC. The aircraft can haul a lot of freight and would be a great aircraft if the loads are heavy.
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eaglefarm4
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RE: AC & Australia

Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:39 pm

Yes Air Canada operated a 3 times a week 767 Via HNL to MEL but it was shortlived.

I worked for the state Tourism body in Queensland for 3 decades and i knew then that next to NSW about 55% of Canadian tourists visited QLD for the beaches and the reef and the warmth.I don't know the current stats on this as i have been retired for past 6 years.

I recall that Canadian wanted to fly to BNE and later on Canada 3000 did.

I believe that BNE could possibly be a port later this decade more likely for the Air Canada LCC.
tourismman
 
tayser
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RE: AC & Australia

Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:08 pm

Quoting Kermode (Reply 2):
Its great to see more flights to Sydney! I've heard that it is quite a popular route for air Canada and incredibly profitable. Most likely uplifting lots of cargo as well. Also these times are for Australian skiers coming up to British Columbia to ski in our winter. And I'd presume there are quite a few vacationers wanting to get down to Australia to escape the Canadian winter.

Yeah - BC got a heck of lot of coverage in The Amazing Race Australia which just finished its run two weeks ago - two episodes were in Vancouver/Whistler (your previous winter) with a lot of BC tourism ads in the breaks - its not hard to put two and two together with the AC announcement for extra flights.

Quoting beechnut (Reply 3):
Doesn't AC have a few new 77W on order? Perhaps this additional capacity could free up a 77L or two.

Glad someone mentioned this as that this is what I was inferring - maybe a rejig before they get 788s in 2014?

Quoting eaglefarm4 (Reply 10):
I worked for the state Tourism body in Queensland for 3 decades and i knew then that next to NSW about 55% of Canadian tourists visited QLD for the beaches and the reef and the warmth.I don't know the current stats on this as i have been retired for past 6 years.

Canada has for the last couple of years featured in the list of passport holder growth at MEL : http://melbourneairport.com.au/News-...ernational-growth-for-2011-12.html

For the full 2011/2012 financial year, there was 10% growth in Canadian passport holders entering/departing MEL as opposed to USA at 7%. In December and January it was up around the 15% mark for Canada - that's growth on the previous year for those months.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: AC & Australia

Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 11):
For the full 2011/2012 financial year, there was 10% growth in Canadian passport holders entering/departing MEL as opposed to USA at 7%.

These would have been on services other than AC. Perhaps on QF via LAX and NZ via YVR/AKL
 
tayser
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RE: AC & Australia

Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:58 am

and VA (DL/AS) via LAX and UA via the tag on from SYD (people dont enter/depart Australia in SYD, they enter/depart in MEL in that flight's case).

This is what I mean they're managing growth without non-stops, it's surely got to be building a case for non-stops sooner or later.

[Edited 2012-08-27 17:59:26]
 
YVRLTN
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RE: AC & Australia

Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:09 am

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 9):
Quoting multimark (Reply 7):
Why waste one on YYZ-FRA?

FRA is a very good cargo destination for AC. The aircraft can haul a lot of freight and would be a great aircraft if the loads are heavy.

   We frequently can not get enought freight away and end up having to use LH freighter service to ORD to get moved in time.

Quoting Kermode (Reply 2):
Most likely uplifting lots of cargo as well.

   Oh yeah, not cheap either - AC must be making a killing!

Quoting Kermode (Reply 2):
Also these times are for Australian skiers coming up to British Columbia to ski in our winter. And I'd presume there are quite a few vacationers wanting to get down to Australia to escape the Canadian winter.

There is also a lot of business. Annecdotal maybe, but Australia is one of our top destinations for freight - though a lot does go to BNE & PER for the mines. There are a lot of ties between Canada and Australia and also seems to be popular for student interchange and so on.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
In answer to your other question, YVR-MEL has been mentioned on two occasions ... A new route when the B787 arrives, and a potential new route for the new Pacific LCC

Unless JQ or VA come along and spoil the party first (like AC are slowly losing their China opportunities)   
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
ANM604
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RE: AC & Australia

Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:37 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
In answer to your other question, YVR-MEL has been mentioned on two occasions ... A new route when the B787 arrives,

I would expect this to be one of the first routes launched, in addition to more service to South America.

Quoting Kermode (Reply 2):
I think if the lease with air India hadn't fallen through, we could've seen more service to Australia sooner!

Or if the 787's weren't three years late.   

Quoting beechnut (Reply 3):
Doesn't AC have a few new 77W on order? Perhaps this additional capacity could free up a 77L or two.

Five on order, first couple expected late 2013. Wouldn't be surprised if more options were converted, but that is likely tied up with a shortage of 777 pilots, especially if they add a lot of 777 flying at once.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 14):
There is also a lot of business. Annecdotal maybe, but Australia is one of our top destinations for freight - though a lot does go to BNE & PER for the mines. There are a lot of ties between Canada and Australia and also seems to be popular for student interchange and so on.

Lots of resource trade between both countries, in addition to young people travelling. Just go to Whistler during the winter, you'd be hard pressed not to run into an aussie every couple minutes. Same thing in Sydney/Brisbane/Melbourne.
 
Kermode
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RE: AC & Australia

Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 am

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 15):

Are you sure it's 5? Boeings website shows only 3. I remember there were two threads awhile ago. One claiming air Canada ordered three more and the other claiming they were the unidentified customer of 2 777's. Can anyone confirm ether it's 3 or 5. I was hoping for 5, and would be happier if that was the case, but any order is great really.

Kermode

(Edited as I accidentally wrote 2 orders when I intended to write 3)

[Edited 2012-08-27 20:30:04]
 
chrisa330
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RE: AC & Australia

Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:13 am

Quoting Kermode (Reply 16):

AC has 5 77Ws on order. Boeings website states that and you can check AC's MD&A which confirms the same. AC has not confirmed if they will in fact incorporate in their operating fleet.
 
polaris
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RE: AC & Australia

Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:18 am

Air Canada's 77Ls fly Toronto - Hong Kong, Toronto - Shanghai, and Toronto - Vancouver - Sydney. From Dec 15th through Jan 31st, Shanghai is replaced with a 77W. This frees up a couple 77Ls to fly additional routes to Europe and Australia.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: AC & Australia

Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:17 pm

I'd love to see AC fly into MEL but not sure it would be on the agenda for a while yet.

The 787 will help facilitate such a service, but we will see, depending on their priorities at the time.

I can't see them flying to SYD, MEL and BNE though. Will be interesting to see what they choose to do.
 
threepoint
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RE: AC & Australia

Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 15):
Just go to Whistler during the winter, you'd be hard pressed not to run into an aussie every couple minutes. Same thing in Sydney/Brisbane/Melbourne.

I find it hard to believe one can run into an Aussie every couple of minutes in Sydney/Brisbane/Melbourne. Actually, now that I think of it, you might be right - they're all in London or on a BC ski hill it seems.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: AC & Australia

Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 20):
I find it hard to believe one can run into an Aussie every couple of minutes in Sydney/Brisbane/Melbourne. Actually, now that I think of it, you might be right - they're all in London

        
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
ANM604
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RE: AC & Australia

Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:55 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 20):
I find it hard to believe one can run into an Aussie every couple of minutes in Sydney/Brisbane/Melbourne. Actually, now that I think of it, you might be right - they're all in London or on a BC ski hill it seems.

   Canadians in Australia.... As shocking as it seems to run into Australians in Australia   

Quoting chrisa330 (Reply 17):
AC has not confirmed if they will in fact incorporate in their operating fleet.

I would be quite surprised if at least 3/5 don't end up in the fleet. I've heard much talk about AC wanting to grow it's 777 fleet, but there are some obstacles to that. Fact is, the 777's make a boatload of money for AC because they are utilizing them very well, not surprising they want more. As well, it doesn't hurt that AC desperately needs wants to get rid of it's 767's and 330's.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: AC & Australia

Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:59 am

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 22):
As well, it doesn't hurt that AC desperately needs wants to get rid of it's 767's and 330's.

What's wrong with the 330s ? TATL they're reasonably low CASM (until 787 arrives, but no rush to dump these).
 
StarAC17
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RE: AC & Australia

Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:22 am

Quoting Kermode (Reply 2):
It'd be great to see a MEL service soon! But air Canada don't have enough a/c it seems. Using a 77W would have the range but most likely would suffer penalties as I believe they did when they used to operate this route, before the 77L's arrived.

MEL doesn't have the capacity for a 777 coming direct from YVR. Even though its the best city in Aus    it is more of a hidden treasure. MEL It gets a lot of domestic tourism in Australia .

Most international tourists will want Sydney first and might go to Melbourne but far less start or end there.

Also NZ is a player on BNE/MEL-YVR via AKL, also makes very easy *A connections on AC. If AC is serious about serving SYD, MEL and BNE with any success it makes sense to partner up with VA to get easy domestic connections.

Also If QF/JQ is serious about Canada they should be talking to WS.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 23):
What's wrong with the 330s ? TATL they're reasonably low CASM (until 787 arrives, but no rush to dump these).

They only have 8 which makes it inefficient in terms of maintenance and type-ratings for pilots, when AC got them they also had A340s which made sense. When they went with the 777 the A330 doesn't fit in anymore.

The 787 is meant to replace both the A330 and the 767 to simplify the fleet.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 20):
I find it hard to believe one can run into an Aussie every couple of minutes in Sydney/Brisbane/Melbourne. Actually, now that I think of it, you might be right - they're all in London or on a BC ski hill it seems.

I have a good mate who lives in Adelaide and he went to Whistler to do some skiing and snowboarding in January and was pissed that he ran into more Aussies than Canuks :P
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
mogandoCI
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RE: AC & Australia

Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:33 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 24):
They only have 8 which makes it inefficient in terms of maintenance and type-ratings for pilots, when AC got them they also had A340s which made sense. When they went with the 777 the A330 doesn't fit in anymore.

The 787 is meant to replace both the A330 and the 767 to simplify the fleet.

I think only the 787 is the reason to gradually replace the 330. On many missions that doesn't require heavy cargo lift, the 333 probably has lower trip costs than hauling a big fat 77L across the Atlantic.

Many carriers are finding success in 333+77W mix : CX, SQ, KE, to name a few. Maintenance could always be outsourced.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC & Australia

Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:47 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 24):
They only have 8 which makes it inefficient in terms of maintenance and type-ratings for pilots, when AC got them they also had A340s which made sense. When they went with the 777 the A330 doesn't fit in anymore.

That was the initial fleet plan, until someone crunched the numbers, and the seat mile cost of the A330 is pretty impressive. Then it was decided to keep the A330s.

The A330s will remain after the delivery of the B787s for a few years. The replaced B767s will be returned to the lessors, or relegated to the LCC.

Maintenance, as mentioned is outsourced. Type ratings are a breeze, as the cockpit is very very similar to the A320 series. In fact the transition course (either way) is only 2 practise sims, plus the ride. And most of that involves ETOPS. Transport Canada does allow dual type ratings between the A320 series, and the A330/A340 but it is not economical to do that. (Notice that is dual type ratings, not a common type rating. Basically it means you would be doing recurrent training on two different types, alternating, much like the A330/A340 was done).
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: AC & Australia

Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:21 pm

How many of the 5 777's end up in the fleet depends as much on the economy of China and trade with Canada, as anything. Both with additional frequencies and adding new routes into China. The same goes for Europe and whether it remains soft or improves. Canada to Frankfurt remains strong especially with cargo as said above. If Europe stabilizes and a couple new cities or frequencies are added to China I think all would easily be used. Additional Chinese carriers/routes are rumoured including one more to YYZ. So that is an indication of volume anticipated.

As far as Australia goes I don't see any new destinations until the 787's arrive. And when that happens and if growth continues, 2 daily 787's to SYD might just as well happen instead of adding MEL. As discussed above it all comes down to demand for MEL direct, and I am not sure what the volume would look like.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: AC & Australia

Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 19):

I'd love to see AC fly into MEL but not sure it would be on the agenda for a while yet.

That will take legs! The YVR-MEL ESAD is ~7700nm . At best the 788 would be limited to about max passenger load. This city pair need the 789 but I don't believe AC have these on order.
 
Sydscott
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RE: AC & Australia

Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:24 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 24):
Also If QF/JQ is serious about Canada they should be talking to WS.

If they were serious about Canada, the Australian and Canadian Governments need to get together and review the treaty between the 2 countries to open more points for 1 stop service, and allow for more non-stp service.

If QF/JQ were serious about tapping the ski market, which is by no means low yield, you're right they should be talking to WS and they should be seriously planning for an aircraft that can compete with Air Canda's direct service. Unfortunately I don't think you'll see QF return while it's easy running A380's to LAX and handing over pax to other airlines for onwards service.
 
StarAC17
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RE: AC & Australia

Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:28 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 29):
If they were serious about Canada, the Australian and Canadian Governments need to get together and review the treaty between the 2 countries to open more points for 1 stop service, and allow for more non-stp service.

With bi-laterial who benefits more on a non-stop basis, which affects negotiations.

Canada can serve 3 Australian cities from YVR where as Australia can only serve one (they could possibly do YYC but I don't see it happening). Since bi-laterals tend to be negotiated on mutual benefits its makes negotiations more difficult.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 28):
That will take legs! The YVR-MEL ESAD is ~7700nm . At best the 788 would be limited to about max passenger load. This city pair need the 789 but I don't believe AC have these on order.

From Great Circle it is 7118 nm.

I'm not sure that it is within the range of the 788, I know the 77L can do it with no restrictions but I'm not sure the capacity is there for it.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 29):
If QF/JQ were serious about tapping the ski market, which is by no means low yield, you're right they should be talking to WS and they should be seriously planning for an aircraft that can compete with Air Canda's direct service. Unfortunately I don't think you'll see QF return while it's easy running A380's to LAX and handing over pax to other airlines for onwards service.

Great business for us being in *A.

Signed,

Air New Zealand   
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
Sydscott
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RE: AC & Australia

Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:45 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 30):
Great business for us being in *A.

Signed,

Air New Zealand

On the flip side to that, AC and NZ were denied permission to co-operate on the Canada route by the ACCC due to competition concerns. So while they are both Star, they still have to compete with one another for pax.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 30):
Canada can serve 3 Australian cities from YVR where as Australia can only serve one (they could possibly do YYC but I don't see it happening). Since bi-laterals tend to be negotiated on mutual benefits its makes negotiations more difficult.

Agreed. It was easier when AC wanted access to LAX as a stopover point to YYZ-LAX-SYD. And I can just imagine the howls of protest if QF did get into bed with EK and then wanted to expand Canadian services. :P
 
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eta unknown
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RE: AC & Australia

Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:13 am

The cost of setting up a new station for a longhaul route that presumbably wouldn't be daily fails to make a solid business case- YVR-MEL will never happen.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: AC & Australia

Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:04 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 30):
From Great Circle it is 7118 nm.

Agreed. I am referring to wind adjusted airways distance.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: AC & Australia

Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 31):
On the flip side to that, AC and NZ were denied permission to co-operate on the Canada route by the ACCC due to competition concerns. So while they are both Star, they still have to compete with one another for pax.

Are they blocked from JV or blocked from basic code-sharing ?
 
Viscount724
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RE: AC & Australia

Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:25 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 30):
Canada can serve 3 Australian cities from YVR where as Australia can only serve one (they could possibly do YYC but I don't see it happening).

What are you referring to? The text of the Canada-Australia bilateral (unless there's been a very recent change) shows that Canadian carriers can serve SYD and one other point in Australia, and Australian carriers can serve YVR and one other point in Canada.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: AC & Australia

Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:41 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
What are you referring to? The text of the Canada-Australia bilateral (unless there's been a very recent change) shows that Canadian carriers can serve SYD and one other point in Australia, and Australian carriers can serve YVR and one other point in Canada.

He's referring to potential choices (not all 3 at once).

AC could choose 2 out of SYD / MEL / BNE, while QF/VA realistically could only serve YVR since YYZ is way too far and YYC too small.

Now, whether that means QF is allowed to MEL/BNE/SYD-YVR is not clear in that statement.
 
Viscount724
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RE: AC & Australia

Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:55 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 36):
Now, whether that means QF is allowed to MEL/BNE/SYD-YVR is not clear in that statement.

The bilateral permits Australian carriers to operate from anywhere in Australia to YVR and one other point of their choice in Canada. Vice versa for Canadian carriers from anywhere in Canada to SYD and one other point of their choice in Australia.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: AC & Australia

Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:14 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 28):
This city pair need the 789 but I don't believe AC have these on order.

AC has the option of switching 787 models up to a certain point prior to production. Presumably that is a short period before the longest lead items need to be ordered by Boeing. Rumours have circulated that the split right now between 788 and 789 is 50/50 but that can change depending on market conditions. AC has options beyond those ordered I am not sure if slots are held for those or they go to the back of the queue. One would assume as well that some of the options could go for 7810's if it is launched in time and AC doesn't need aircraft sooner.

With the up to 5 777 on order and 777 options AC can add a lot of capacity more quickly than I think the slower travel market could absorb. And as 787's arrive and 767's are transferred to the LCC, there are as well possible 763's that could be added to service to Australia for secondary markets, with a stop in Honolulu as was done prior to the direct flights being added.
 
StarAC17
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RE: AC & Australia

Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:25 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
What are you referring to? The text of the Canada-Australia bilateral (unless there's been a very recent change) shows that Canadian carriers can serve SYD and one other point in Australia, and Australian carriers can serve YVR and one other point in Canada.

I may of misunderstood but I from an earlier post that Canada and Australia were only allowed to serve one city non-stop and two one-stop.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 36):
AC could choose 2 out of SYD / MEL / BNE, while QF/VA realistically could only serve YVR since YYZ is way too far and YYC too small.

Now, whether that means QF is allowed to MEL/BNE/SYD-YVR is not clear in that statement.

Where I was getting at with this is that AC has the ability to serve 3 Australian cities with their current equipment and because of Geography. Where as Australia can only serve YVR, in terms of the bi-laterial if there is no restrictions on capacity could QF serve MEL/BNE/SYD-YVR without Canada griping??

This makes no sense because the capacity isn't there and QF will serve LAX and DFW and funnel traffic not going to YVR through those points because the customs hassle doesn't matter to them also AA serves most Canadian cities (from DFW).
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
tayser
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RE: AC & Australia

Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:47 pm

Text of the treaty: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1988/12.html (scroll right down to the Annex)

AU airlines: any port in Australia [optionally via SFO/HNL/PPT/NAN] to YVR + one more choice
CA airlines: any port in Canada [optionally via SFO/HNL/PPT/NAN] to SYD + one more choice.
 
multimark
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RE: AC & Australia

Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 31):
On the flip side to that, AC and NZ were denied permission to co-operate on the Canada route by the ACCC due to competition concerns. So while they are both Star, they still have to compete with one another for pax.

Rather laughable to deny AC/NZ, given how EK was allowed to plunder the Australian market!
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: AC & Australia

Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting tayser (Reply 40):
Text of the treaty: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1988/12.html (scroll right down to the Annex)

AU airlines: any port in Australia [optionally via SFO/HNL/PPT/NAN] to YVR + one more choice
CA airlines: any port in Canada [optionally via SFO/HNL/PPT/NAN] to SYD + one more choice.

This must date back to the '60's or '70's. When was PPT or NAN used last as an en route stop ?
 
Gemuser
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RE: AC & Australia

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:25 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 42):

This must date back to the '60's or '70's. When was PPT or NAN used last as an en route stop ?

Try the 1940! IIRC (and I may not!) that bilateral originally dated to 1949.

NAN was used by almost all Australia/North America services up until the B707-338 days. QF started SYD-HNL non stop with them, but it was not all services. CP was similar with its DC8s

Did QF operate SYD-PPT-SFO-YVR? I have a very vague memory that that may have happened. Viscount724 will know!

Gemuser

[Edited 2012-08-30 18:26:48]
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
tayser
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RE: AC & Australia

Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 42):
his must date back to the '60's or '70's. When was PPT or NAN used last as an en route stop ?

as above, what gemuser said, but also - i.e in the URL - the treaty is from 1988 - pre 777-[anything]/744-[ER] days. Aus department of Infrastructure's site - which lists all the treaties (and then links off to auslii which houses the actual text of the treaties) lists a Memorandum of Understanding in force from 2000: http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/avi...tion/international/agreements.aspx

Gillard and Harper need their heads banged together to come up with an Open Skies treaty.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: AC & Australia

Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 44):
Gillard and Harper need their heads banged together to come up with an Open Skies treaty.

I would suggest that it will not happen unless AC and/or QF want it to happen.
 
cedarjet
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RE: AC & Australia

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:48 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 43):
Did QF operate SYD-PPT-SFO-YVR?

You bet! Here we are, miraculously transported back to the Vancouver of November 1959 by photographer Mel Lawrence.

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Photo © Mel Lawrence
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Mel Lawrence


The service was fortnightly.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Viscount724
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RE: AC & Australia

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:02 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 46):
Quoting gemuser (Reply 43):
Did QF operate SYD-PPT-SFO-YVR?

You bet! Here we are, miraculously transported back to the Vancouver of November 1959 by photographer Mel Lawrence.

QF never operated SYD-PPT-SFO-YVR. The routing to YVR during those years was SYD-NAN-HNL-SFO-YVR. About 15 years later, sometime in the mid-1970s, QF changed the routing to SYD-NAN-PPT-YVR. That's the only time YVR has ever had service to/from PPT, and while it lasted YVR-PPT was the longest nonstop flight from YVR (slighlty further than CP YVR-AMS nonstop which was previously the longest). QF's early 707-138s didn't have the range for west coast-PPT nonstop.

When they dropped the YVR routing via PPT, QF reverted to the tag-on from YVR to SFO, but using the 747-200 which replaced the 707-338C used on the route via PPT.

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