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Avianca
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:33 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 49):
Like whom? EK? Who treats their employees better than LH?

well what I can say is that unfortunately LH made a lot of mistakes since the new CEO took over.
Specially with the lower employees, like at LSG, Check-in staff etc.

I really can not agree that they basically outsource everything and a lot of people are earning only 6 euros per hour without any add benefit as they have only 6 months contracts via 3rd party etc. with such a salary hardly anybody can live in a decent way in germany.

my personal oppinion LH has by far the worst upper management since decads, if not the worst in all history of LH.

Cheers
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
klemmi85
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 24):
It is crazy that a relatively small group of people has the power to legally(?) cause huge damage to society (even to their coworkers: pilots, ground crew etc...) demanding whatever they demand.

If they are not happy with their jobs, they should leave. It's simple.

Exactly. Not a single soul on this planet forces them to stay in a job they ain't happy with.

Quoting airevents (Reply 28):
Conditions for the youngest of the flight attendants are already less than perfect, they make just over 1000 EUR a month working full time (different to what is publicized) and find it hard to make a living.

Again, you know the game when you apply for it. They don't treat loans top secret and only let you know what you get once you signed your contract, right?

Quoting s5daw (Reply 29):
when a group of 20k people affects probably close to 100k passengers per day, not to mention all other stakeholders, who will be affected in one way or another, it is minority using their position to extort majority.

Correct. If I'm not happy with my job, who gives me the right to go out and make others suffer for that huh? It's basically like taking hostages. Just because some meant-to-be strong union backs you up, some think they can just act like however they want. This being legal is sick. They are causing expenses, loss of profit for days and are a huge pain in the ass and in return for that favor they want more money? C'mon guys, is this reality distortion?

Quoting Semaex (Reply 32):
Besides - everybody who is working these days is doing so at "less than perfect" conditions. I really don't know where our working society would be if everybody who considers himself working at imperfect conditions would go on strike.. you'd basically have strikes all day throughout the country in every single industry.

Right.. you see.. if Mr. X in factory Y decides his job isn't payed well enough and steps out in the yard to proclaim a strike, it's only a matter of minutes before his contract gets terminated AND there are many people out there just waiting to do his job. They ONLY go on strike because they're backed up, other than that it would be highly suicidal for each ones job.

Quoting captaincrackers (Reply 38):
There is no sense in criticizing strikers for being selfish or holding anybody hostage. It's how the market works in Germany and elsewhere. Striking has proven an effective supplement to pay and conditions negotiation time and time again.

And that's wrong at the base already. If you get away with this, you keep on doing it. If a child knows it can abuse its parents to force its will, it'll do so over and over again. There is a reason why countries do not negotiate with "certain individuals" because once they do, it would open up the gates of hell for every brain damaged individual around trying to make a buck. Leaning up against your employer is HIGHLY disloyal and like I said, in return they expect to be treated better - that's sick.

And it's not only LH... striking IS a real problem... just look at the Deutsche Bahn, they make striking their sport as well.
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Semaex
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting klemmi85 (Reply 51):

You're entitled to your opinion, but to me they are rather radical. No offense meant.

I think the right to strike is a foundation for democracy, and taking away this right would cause a lot more trouble than keeping it.
But with every right, there is a fine line when and how it should be exercised. I'm glad that there are people who know that they have the right to do something, but because they know that when exercising that certain right this action might 1) limit others in their freedom, 2) be immorale, 3) be injust or 4) plain stupid, they do not make use of such a right.

I really think that there are jobs which are highly underpaid, grossly unfair and which do not get the attention they deserve. But being a LH F/A is none of those.

I was very very glad when some months ago the ground handlers at FRA were striking and because their proposed conditions were so outrageous, they did not have the public support. Common sense prevailed, the protest quickly ended and everybody was happy (except the union which flamed this stupid strike and is now facing serious judicial problems being sued by Fraport, LH and other airlines)
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast if you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:24 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 50):
I really can not agree that they basically outsource everything and a lot of people are earning only 6 euros per hour without any add benefit as they have only 6 months contracts via 3rd party etc. with such a salary hardly anybody can live in a decent way in germany.

While I understand that, how does LH compete w/ TK and EK then, for example?
I don't take responsibility at all
 
LH422
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:45 pm

The first strike wave will be for FRA only from 5:00 to 13:00 tomorrow, August 31. All LH flights to and from FRA will be affected. LH are saying they will prioritize staffing the cabin crew for intercontinental flights first, then European flights.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...ants-plan-strike-over-pay-tomorrow

I hope I won't be affected flying to TXL tomorrow evening...
 
aeroblogger
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:06 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 45):
Just remember that they cant get over the 1.5% raise gap. I mean common, really?

If you argue the poor FAs earn 1k per month, they are bringing everything to stand still for 15 euros per month. That is just crazy. From the individual's point of view it makes no sense. It is just the union demonstrating their strength for the sake of it, causing nothing but huge damage and loss.

They could just ask passenger for tips, smile, and earn much more.
Or the union can start their own airline if they think they can manage it better.

This strike is not about a pay gap. It is about outsourcing and the usage of contract employees.
UFO by law cannot strike about overall situations - just wage negotiations. So they proposed a hike which they knew LH would reject, so that they could strike (or get a nice pay raise...)

Both LH and UFO know what the real reason for the strike is.. Thinking that it is about pay is completely incorrect.
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aloges
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:07 pm

"Shut up and do your job!"
said the master to the galley slave, as he cracked his whip

Quoting LH422 (Reply 54):
I hope I won't be affected flying to TXL tomorrow evening...

I'd reserve a seat on a train if I were you, just in case. If you do need to take the train, it'll be more than worth the €4.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Avianca
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:01 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 53):
While I understand that, how does LH compete w/ TK and EK then, for example?

well - LH is known for its high prices - hence the coststructure can absord higher salaries.
Also I am not against outsourcing but I am against in a way the currenct LH management is pushing
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yaris
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:17 am

Quoting LH422 (Reply 54):
The first strike wave will be for FRA only from 5:00 to 13:00 tomorrow, August 31. All LH flights to and from FRA will be affected. LH are saying they will prioritize staffing the cabin crew for intercontinental flights first, then European flights.

Anybody knows what is going at FRA right now?
 
stylo777
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:36 am

The first bunch of flights are cancelled, mostly domestic and to European destinations with multiple daily flights.

http://www.lufthansa.com/mediapool/p...tendants&blt_z=Cancelled%20flights
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:53 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 55):
This strike is not about a pay gap. It is about outsourcing and the usage of contract employees.
UFO by law cannot strike about overall situations - just wage negotiations. So they proposed a hike which they knew LH would reject, so that they could strike (or get a nice pay raise...)

If that is so, the strike is illegal because they can strike for higher wages only. It has to be about wages only, as you say and LH is trying to get a court injunction. There is a good chance this thing is over pretty soon.

UFO has a seat on the supervisory board, there is another purser, non-aligned with a union, there are 10 members on the workers side which include 2 captains as well. If they want to change company policy, they can try to get a majority.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Nicoeddf
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:33 am

Quoting Semaex (Reply 48):
I whole-heartedly disagree. How can you say that "if the workers are on strike that means the company is not in control". Do you know how LH works?

As PanHAM stated earlier, Lufthansa is amongst the Top 10 employers in Germany. The screenings that LH does in order to get the best workforce they can find is immense, on thousands of applicants a couple of tens come through. And those that get through the process consider themselves the "elite", because they are the few percent who supposingly are better than the others. You see this behaviour with rookie pilots, young F/As and also in the management. Arrogance is a common sight at LH, and it's eating up the company from inside terribly. What's even worse is that it often seems that the employees feel that once they belong to LH, they're in paradise: Unfireable, regular payrise, unlimited chances to go up the ladder, social benefits etc. It is those things that make travelling with LH a hell lot more expensive than comparable carriers.

At some point you just have to cut it, the costs are exploding, and F/As are part of that equation. The thankfulness for working for a global player is massively underdeveloped at LH, while the school of thought that the airline is a multi-billion-euro business where one must draw as much money from as one can while still whining over cost-cutting programs is a common, disgusting sight, and believe me, I've seen it the last couple of months every single day.
Modesty would be the way to go, but it seems this virtue is inversely proportional to the paycheck you receive every month.

Damn, very rarely someone has written a statement I can so wholeheartedly agree too! You nailed it!
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neo777
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:37 am

It seems that the strike is only follow by the Frankfurt based crew.... Munich and Berlin are operating normally so far!!!
 
PlaneInsomniac
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:40 am

It seems the union managed to create quite the chaos at FRA. FRA management has confirmed that they temporarily had to refuse incoming flights from within Europe by ALL airlines:

http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/...t-airlines-betroffen-a-853151.html

It seems there is / was a lack of parking positions at the airport, and LH had to cancel the majority of their short- and medium-haul flights and even some long-haul flights.
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
MaverickM11
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:18 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 57):
LH is known for its high prices - hence the coststructure can absord higher salaries.

It's the other way around; LH has a high cost structure, hence it has to command a premium, which it does. But the problem is that it will become increasingly difficult to maintain that revenue premium as competition increases. The EU is going through what US carriers went through years ago, and the creative destruction is going to be rough.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
vv701
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:55 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 63):
FRA management has confirmed that they temporarily had to refuse incoming flights from within Europe by ALL airlines:http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/...t-airlines-betroffen-a-853151.htmlIt seems there is / was a lack of parking positions at the airport, and LH had to cancel the majority of their short- and medium-haul flights and even some long-haul flights.

Is this LH management playing hard-ball with their competitors? Doesn't LH have its own away-from-terminal parking space at its prime hub? For example at LHR BA owns the ramps around their engineering base at the easteern end of the airport while BAA owns all the terrminal and remote stands elswewhere at this airport.
 
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bwest
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:14 pm

I can tell you, the lines at the service desks here in terminal 1 at Frankfurt are epic! LH staff is doing their best to help every body and is handing out water to the people in the queue. I can't help but feeling sorry for the desk agents who are gonna get a lot of shit from (understandably) angry passengers for something they can't do anything about.
 
yaris
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:04 pm

So what we will have tommorow? Results of today hard situation are already included.
Will UFO continue strike tommorow? Were there some action from LH to solve a problem?
 
LH422
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 56):
I'd reserve a seat on a train if I were you, just in case. If you do need to take the train, it'll be more than worth the €4.

Greetings from the ICE Sprinter to Berlin.   My flight LH 192 was cancelled about an hour before the scheduled time. First, they sent a text message saying that the gate had changed and five minutes later a message that the flight had been cancelled. Of the flights an the big board in FRA, only two were cancelled.

I would have been able to print out a train voucher at a check-in booth but decided to try and get reimbursed next week. In concourse B, LH changed the baggage drop counters to rebooking counters. What a mess, even four hours after the strike had ended. Looking at the list of cancelled flights, I noticed even some flights without FRA at either end were cancelled.
 
PlaneInsomniac
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting vv701 (Reply 65):
Is this LH management playing hard-ball with their competitors? Doesn't LH have its own away-from-terminal parking space at its prime hub?

For all I know, the decision was taken by Fraport management, and the news said that they were physically running out of space for the parked planes. Whether LH had a hand in this ... who knows. But I cannot see what LH would gain from artifically making the impact of the strike worse.

Quoting LH422 (Reply 68):
So what we will have tommorow?

All we know is that the union has said that the next strike actions will "follow quickly":

http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/...en-arbeit-wieder-auf-a-853207.html
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
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bwest
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:49 pm

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9muskY2bp1ruj4fso1_1280.jpg
Quick pic I shot of the line at the LH service desk in terminal 1 in FRA
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 8:05 pm

you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
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b727fa
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 24):
It is crazy that a relatively small group of people has the power to legally(?) cause huge damage to society (even to their coworkers: pilots, ground crew etc...) demanding whatever they demand.

If they are not happy with their jobs, they should leave. It's simple.

It is never that easy. And that is why the strike is so effective: it compels management to level the playing field for the "relatively small group" and gives them a voice at the table and some control over their lives. Other work groups strike at will in parts of the world (wild cat strikes we call them in the US) and THAT causes amazing hardship to many. More than once I had to divert from BRU b/c the fire brigade at the airport was on strike. Of the lorry drivers and petrol couldn't be delivered; or the roads were blocked. Those workers are no more important than FA's.

Quoting yaris (Reply 30):
But they have no right solve this problem like that.

Actually, they do. That's why strikes are legal in certain times and places. Just because they are "...poor FA's" (see quote below) doesn't mean they can't engage in legal work actions.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 45):
Just remember that they cant get over the 1.5% raise gap. I mean common, really?

If you argue the poor FAs earn 1k per month, they are bringing everything to stand still for 15 euros per month. That is just crazy.

So the case could be made for management, too, that THEY are willing to bring everything to a stand still for 15E/month. I realize it's 15E x 19,000 FA's, but the point is the point. I was once shorted 2 hours of pay and payroll insisted I was wrong. At one point she said, "It's only $45, why are you fighting so hard?" I replied, "Exactly."
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
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b727fa
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:49 pm

Quoting nicoeddf (Reply 61):
The thankfulness for working for a global player is massively underdeveloped at LH, while the school of thought that the airline is a multi-billion-euro business where one must draw as much money from as one can while still whining over cost-cutting programs is a common, disgusting sight, and believe me, I've seen it the last couple of months every single day.

Please don't fall into the trap of saying, "they should work for scraps for the privilege of working for (enter entity here)."

My husband had a (very wealthy) client who remarked when he realized how much I was making on a contract flying gig, "Oh my! That much? You'd think [I'd] just be happy to fly on such nice airplanes with good people, not commercial travel."

While I *think* your point is that you're seeing a sense of entitlement at LH because they're at LH--how you worded it COULD be construed as saying "they're lucky to have a job and they'll take what we give them!" And that, frankly, is an appalling throw back to an era none of us have any reason for which to yearn.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
YYCFlyer
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:15 pm

I'm happy that the German government has respected the rights of the Lufthansa flight attendants and allow them to strike; unlike the Canadian government with Air Canada.
'Opinions Expressed By This Poster Do Not Reflect Those Of My Employer'
 
aloges
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:35 pm

Quoting B727FA (Reply 73):
And that, frankly, is an appalling throw back to an era none of us have any reason for which to yearn.

Exactly.   

Every employee who condemns union activities like this strike condemns with them his own days off, his healthcare benefits and a lot more. He bemoans the very actions that give him a better life than that of someone working in a sweat shop in the "Third World". As for the airlines business, we can already see the erosion of workers' rights happening right before our eyes - all it takes is boarding an evening flight on an LCC. The problem in LH's case is not its own cost structure, but the exploitation that some of its competitors get away with.

  
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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SQ773
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:04 am

I was flying yesterday FRA - BOG on LH. At one point , I asked the F/A if they would be going to strike next day. She told me no. She told me also that she was not going to strike anyway but she understood the right of other to do so. She was just 3 years on the company.

We had the chance to discuss about the job at LH for a F/A doing long haul and european flights. In resume : 42 days of holiday a year, chance to choose the destination whenever its long haul, fixed job, chance to take an unpaid leave ( for instance 4 months ) and return to work with the same conditions and so other things I cannot recall now.

Sorry UFO, but am I missing something ?

Hey, welcome to the 21st century and look around you. An end of an era will come yes or yes, if this great company wants to continue to be great.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:12 am

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 76):
Sorry UFO, but am I missing something ?

Yes. UFO's complaint is not that their contract is not generous enough, but rather that LH is trying to replace them with outsourced contract employees.
#AvGeek
 
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SQ773
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:58 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 77):
but rather that LH is trying to replace them with outsourced contract employees.

Absolutely NOT true. LH has never mention that possibility. At least not in the terms that you mention. That is to say, the old contracts will not be replaced rather than new employees having outsourced contracts. Very different story.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:17 am

Quoting YYCFlyer (Reply 74):
I'm happy that the German government has respected the rights of the Lufthansa flight attendants and allow them to strike; unlike the Canadian government with Air Canada.

The government is not involved in this. We enjoy "tariff autonomy" in Germany which means the government cannot legally intervene in industrial actions. Both sides can call the courts which are independent as well.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 77):

Yes. UFO's complaint is not that their contract is not generous enough, but rather that LH is trying to replace them with outsourced contract employees.

It was never on the table to outsource LH mainline cabin staff. The union uses this to BS the public. The outsourcing of cabin staff was an option for new ventures, like a re-shaped Germanwings taking charge of the non hub flying, whoch would be anything in Europe except the fölights radiating from FRA MUC DUS And except LH Regional of course.

This was intended to stay i nbusiness. It may now very well be that the strike, if not suspended, may result in fewer FA jobs within the LH group . The alternative will be to axe these reoutes when they cannot be operated profitably.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
yaris
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:38 am

Ok guys, what we have today?
 
aloges
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:06 am

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 76):
Sorry UFO, but am I missing something ?

Yes, it is called "Direct4U".

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 78):
Absolutely NOT true. LH has never mention that possibility.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 79):
It was never on the table to outsource LH mainline cabin staff.

If only... then I could understand the outrage. But there is already "Aviation Power" which, IIRC, was set up initially to compete on the cheap with Air Berlin at the new Berlin airport.

Then, there is some LH shorthaul flying being transferred to Germanwings - CGN-LHR, for example, wouldn't really strike anyone as a typical LCC route, but it is operated by Germanwings. Not that I have anything against their staff, but their F/As are definitely in the young-and-will-work-for-little-money camp - as am I, for that matter. LH, on the other hand, is a completely different animal.

Basically, you can't have a legacy/network carrier paying its staff as poorly as (some) LCCs do. Living near FRA, MUC or HAM is more expensive than living near HHN, LBC or NRN. And providing decent service to long-haul passengers is very different from selling snacks and drinks on one-hour hops.

Finally, I've rarely seen someone as tired and exhausted as the purserette on one of the two easyJet flights that I've been on. Yes, the low price of the ticket allowed for the trip in the first place, but I'm not keen on furthering that business model with any more of my money. So I agree wholeheartedly with the fight to avoid similar conditions at LH.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:15 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 81):
If only... then I could understand the outrage. But there is already "Aviation Power" which, IIRC, was set up initially to compete on the cheap with Air Berlin at the new Berlin airport.

Well, most of nthe Berlin routes are new or integrated in 4U anyway. In order t0o compete with AB or others you have to go new ways. UFO wants LH to go the conservative way and that doe snot work.

UFP is actually, at the end of the day, working against growth in the LH group, against jobs. Against reality.

Quoting aloges (Reply 81):
Basically, you can't have a legacy/network carrier paying its staff as poorly as (some) LCCs do. Living near FRA, MUC or HAM is more expensive than living near HHN, LBC or NRN.

So how do AB, NG FR EZY staff live? I lived in my mid 20s in NY whoich was then as expensive as it is today. OK, I was paid fairly well as an expat. The answer on how to make ends meet are room mates, which is known as "WG" in Germany, habving a second job, be creative how to get around. Makes you fit for live.



Quoting aloges (Reply 81):
Yes, the low price of the ticket allowed for the trip in the first place, but I'm not keen on furthering that business model with any more of my money. So I agree wholeheartedly with the fight to avoid similar conditions at L

But that is exactly what you are doing when you support the UFO strike. Simply because if the conditions UFO might negotiate at the end of the day lead to the cancellation of LH internal low cost, these jobs in LH will not exist. They will exist however in EZY FR or similar carriers.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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Semaex
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:10 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 75):
As for the airlines business, we can already see the erosion of workers' rights happening right before our eyes

Excuse me what? It's not like LH is trying to cut all the pensions, social benefits, free holidays and free leaves of their F/As. They have more than enough rights as it is, and -I shall point out again- since LH is a Top 10 employer in Germany, they should be friggin happy with what they have and not push over the limits of what is affordable to an employer.

Quoting aloges (Reply 75):
The problem in LH's case is not its own cost structure, but the exploitation that some of its competitors get away with.

So what should LH do about it? Tell EK to back off from the german market? Tell FR to please please pay their own F/As better? Utopia at its finest.
This is a problem strictly within the company. If LH doesn't start draining the immensely costly benefits that all personnel gets then soon there won't be a LH anymore where you would actually have a job. Ask the public, if they choose flying LH or AB to the exact same destination. Most will answer AB because "they are cheaper". So why are they? Take a wild guess. And it's not like AB crews have to take second and third jobs to stay alive...

Quoting aloges (Reply 81):
Then, there is some LH shorthaul flying being transferred to Germanwings - CGN-LHR, for example, wouldn't really strike anyone as a typical LCC route, but it is operated by Germanwings. [...]
Basically, you can't have a legacy/network carrier paying its staff as poorly as (some) LCCs do. Living near FRA, MUC or HAM is more expensive than living near HHN, LBC or NRN. And providing decent service to long-haul passengers is very different from selling snacks and drinks on one-hour hops.

You're mixing apples with bananas. 4U is not a legacy, LH is not an LCC. To put them all in one pot, stir a little and say that they should offer fares at LCC prices and staff benefits at legacy level is blunt BS.
If you haven't yet noticed, 4U is offereing flights from and to secondary cities, LH is concentrating to hub-to-hub service as well as intercontinental traffic. The fact that LH owns 4U does not mean that they will ultimately be streamlined, in as much that Volkswagen owning Bentley doesn't all of a sudden only produce luxury cars.
The simple fact is that some routes and market are vastly unprofitable in the LH network. We're talking about almost every german and european flight. Only long-haul makes big money. It's just how the times roll that on those unprofitable routes you have to start looking at why that is the case. And amongst others, over-paid F/As with too much benefits are the problem.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 82):
UFO wants LH to go the conservative way and that does not work.

  
Not in an industry where you constantly have to reinnovate yourself to be on top and where the margin is a permille of what Starbucks makes.


Quoting PanHAM (Reply 82):
UFP is actually, at the end of the day, working against growth in the LH group, against jobs. Against reality.

  
But towards ignorant self-fullfillness. Congrats.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 73):

Quoted the wrong person here.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast if you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
PlaneInsomniac
Topic Author
Posts: 422
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:29 am

Quoting yaris (Reply 80):
Ok guys, what we have today?

No new strike actions so far today (and none expected for today). Local radio reports 19 cancelled flights as an after-effect of yesterday's strike.

350 passengers without visa were stranded in the FRA transit area and had to spend the night there. Overall, 26,000 passengers were affected by yesterday's strike.

The union states that there will be more strike actions, but provides no details concerning location and time.

http://www.br.de/themen/aktuell/inha...en-bayerischer-rundfunk100.html#n3
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
aloges
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:17 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 82):
In order to compete with AB or others you have to go new ways.

If you go the same way as Air Berlin, you have a very high risk of flying into bankruptcy.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 82):
UFO is actually, at the end of the day, working against growth in the LH group, against jobs. Against reality.

Oh, that old canard again... "If you have any demands, you jeopardise the jobs of the entire workforce!" We don't have to participate in the race to the bottom, and judging by the number of passengers that the network carriers transport, loads of people do refuse to run.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 82):
So how do AB, NG FR EZY staff live?

May I remind you of AB's labour disputes, particularly during the LTU takeover?
As for the LCCs, many (if not all) of them employ primarily young, childless and inexperienced adults whom they milk until they're dry and then spit out. Not exactly responsible, is it?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 82):
The answer on how to make ends meet are room mates, which is known as "WG" in Germany, habving a second job, be creative how to get around.

I've been doing just that for the past eight years, pumpkin. So please spare me your lecture on what makes others

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 82):
fit for live.

As I was saying, you can't keep doing that if you've got a child to raise - and unless we want all future F/As to be twenty-somethings with a ten-year "shelf life" on the job, maximum, we will have to pay for decent wages for them through the prices of our tickets.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 82):
Simply because if the conditions UFO might negotiate at the end of the day lead to the cancellation of LH internal low cost, these jobs in LH will not exist.

The long-term strategy of LH's management seems to have exactly the same objective: no new hires under the old conditions, but cheap and easily manipulated labour.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
aloges
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:19 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 83):
It's not like LH is trying to cut all the pensions, social benefits, free holidays and free leaves of their F/As.

Do you actually believe that SCORE and Direct4U will remain the only cost-cutting programmes/projects?

Quoting Semaex (Reply 83):
They have more than enough rights as it is

   OK, if that's your level, I'm out.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:53 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 85):
If you go the same way as Air Berlin, you have a very high risk of flying into bankruptcy.

It's the opposite, SCORE is the way to prevent exactly that.

Quoting aloges (Reply 85):
Oh, that old canard again... "If you have any demands, you jeopardise the jobs of the entire workforce!"

Shall I spell it so that it is understood or is the explanation as follows OK?

New venture like "direct4u" demand new ways, the existing work force is protected by the old tariff, including the offer of a 3,5% pay increase in exchange of 2 additional hours per month. Not too much asking for job security in a company that is in the top league of dseirable employers in Germany.

Even such a company that pays well above industry average, including the benefits, must be able to pay the demands of its workforce without sufferng sustainability. If they cannot pay for the needed investments jobs will fade away as well. There are too many bad examples in this industry.

Quoting aloges (Reply 85):
I've been doing just that for the past eight years, pumpkin. So please spare me your lecture on what makes others

That's no reason to be rude. Live is tough and no one promised a rose garden-. It's completely up to you how you handle matters. Not my fault, so keep your insults.

Quoting aloges (Reply 85):
The long-term strategy of LH's management seems to have exactly the same objective: no new hires under the old conditions, but cheap and easily manipulated labour.

Your backwards conservative viewpoint leads nowhere. The LH management has to face reality, even a premium product has to get a grip on it's costs.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 72):
So the case could be made for management, too, that THEY are willing to bring everything to a stand still for 15E/month. I realize it's 15E x 19,000 FA's, but the point is the point. I was once shorted 2 hours of pay and payroll insisted I was wrong. At one point she said, "It's only $45, why are you fighting so hard?" I replied, "Exactly."

It is much more than that. Even in a small company each € 1,00 costs the employer with all the shares in health insurance, pension insurance, unemployment insurance, 6 weeks sick pay on top of the mandatotry 25 to 30 days vacation (paid) etc € 2,00, in a larger company that could well be more, so the € 15,00 you mentioned might translate into somethoing like € 35,00 or even 40,00 .
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
aloges
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:58 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 87):
Not my fault, so keep your insults.

You know what's insulting? Making this suggestion to F/As:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 82):
having a second job

and saying that this and sharing flats to make ends meet would make them

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 82):
fit for life.

First of all, finding a second job that can be combined with the flexibility that is expected from a full-time F/A would be a miracle - not to mention that your airline wouldn't be too keen on it because it'd mean that your rest periods are spent working elsewhere.
Secondly, the insinuation that F/As might somehow not yet be "fit for life", just because they're striking for pretty mundane demands, is extremely arrogant. Most F/As are pretty bloody good at making ends meet and mastering problems - not because they love it, but because the former is a necessity and the latter is a job qualification.
Finally, UFO was very much among those unions that agreed to forego raises in recent years. They have made concessions, so they shouldn't be thanked with further outsourcing and cuts.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 87):
a company that is in the top league of desirable employers in Germany

And you don't see the problem with management going in a direction that will change this?

The F/As, along with the ground staff, are LH's face to the customer. It won't pay to annoy them.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
FlyingAY
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:42 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 88):
First of all, finding a second job that can be combined with the flexibility that is expected from a full-time F/A would be a miracle - not to mention that your airline wouldn't be too keen on it because it'd mean that your rest periods are spent working elsewhere.

Exactly, I seriously cannot believe that people here are suggesting that an FA with highly irregular working hours should consider getting a second job to make the ends meet.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 87):
Not too much asking for job security in a company that is in the top league of dseirable employers in Germany.

This is definitely the way to change that situation... I did not find Lufthansa in the recent Great Place to Work studies. Are there some other yearly job satisfaction published in Germany? What has been the direction of the company recently?

Quoting aloges (Reply 85):
As for the LCCs, many (if not all) of them employ primarily young, childless and inexperienced adults whom they milk until they're dry and then spit out. Not exactly responsible, is it?

I've always appreciated the LH cabin crew highly. Service is consistently good, which is something that I cannot say from many other European airlines (AY included). I highly doubt that the freshly recruited newcomers (such as the people working at Wizzair or Ryanair) would have the necessary experience to provide equal service on such a consistent level.
 
aloges
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 89):
Are there some other yearly job satisfaction published in Germany?

Certanly, but the ones that I've come across have usually ranked the attractiveness for university graduates - and I have no doubt whatsoever that some of those surveys are, shall we say, as reliable as Skytrax ratings.

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 89):
What has been the direction of the company recently?

Near the top, but as I was saying those ratings usually concern graduates and are thus irrelevant for F/As. As far as I know, from non-graduate LH employees, the company is a very demanding employer - as it should be - but also invests greatly into the qualifications of its employees and trainees.
As for my own experience with a LH-related company, I am happy to say that so far, they have never been anything but fair to me - but I freelance and it is but a side-job, so again irrelevant for an F/A who relies on LH for his/her only (or main) income.
All in all, a lot of pride in working for LH (still?) exists. The result of the current strike will either add to it or detract from it... and I apologise for just having stated the obvious.

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 89):
I've always appreciated the LH cabin crew highly.

As have I. My overall impression is that they always care, which is a very hard state to reach in such a huge operation.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Talaier
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:46 pm

Reality is that LH (as have a few other troubled European airlines) has kept the same cost structure it had 10 years ago when paying 300 EUR for, say, a MAD-MUC-VIE flight (which was what I paid back in 2000), was the norm and not the exception. And that was cheap for the time. Too often people forget how quickly this sector has changed in Europe over the last decade.

I understand cabin crew members wanting to strike, after all they have lived under a set of expectations that have disappeared in the middle of their careers. Pretty much the same that has happened to a few friends of mine who work in investment banking.

This is probably the start of a conflict that will take time to solve. As with BA last year and IB over the past months, LH will be a carrier to avoid this fall. AF is next in line.

If we customers weren't drive by price then things would be different but, as of today, most passengers go for the lowest price.
 
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b727fa
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:50 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 87):
It is much more than that. Even in a small company each € 1,00 costs the employer with all the shares in health insurance, pension insurance, unemployment insurance, 6 weeks sick pay on top of the mandatotry 25 to 30 days vacation (paid) etc € 2,00, in a larger company that could well be more, so the € 15,00 you mentioned might translate into somethoing like € 35,00 or even 40,00 .

I realize that...you might note that I said words to that effect in my post. I was responding to the poster who said, "It's only 15e" and I was trying to point out that the argument of "it's only ____; settle the contract" can work for both sides.

Regards...
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
aloges
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting Talaier (Reply 91):
Reality is that LH (...) has kept the same cost structure it had 10 years ago

Where on earth did you get that idea? Various so-called "zero rounds", i.e. years with no raises, have reduced the real incomes of LH's employees. And that is just the first thing I thought of.

Quoting Talaier (Reply 91):
as have a few other troubled European airlines

I'd love to have LH's "troubles" - one of them is, for instance, massive investments into new aircraft and interiors that are supposed to happen without taking up any meaningful debt.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
quiet1
Posts: 322
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:57 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
UFO demanded a general agreement that LH will not employ leased cabin staff, not now and not in the future.

That is illegal, the union cannot demand that and certainly not go on strike over such demands.
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 55):
This strike is not about a pay gap. It is about outsourcing and the usage of contract employees.
UFO by law cannot strike about overall situations - just wage negotiations. So they proposed a hike which they knew LH would reject, so that they could strike (or get a nice pay raise...)

Being an American, it is interesting for me to learn about the German labor laws regarding contract negotiations. If I read these comments correctly, the only reason UFO can strike is over the terms of pay? It cannot strike for what are called SCOPE clauses in US carriers' contracts? Can it strike over proposed work conditions, such as duty day length, layovers, vacations, etc?
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:55 am

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 94):
Can it strike over proposed work conditions, such as duty day length, layovers, vacations, etc?

Can't answer that correctly, but you have to understand that, in Germany, we have "workers participation" through a workers council and the items you have listed are items mthat have to be OKed by thw orkers council.

On top of that, unions, better, the workers side, have half the seats on the supervisory boards of PLC / INC corporations.

The LH board has 20 members of which 10 are on the workers side. UFO has one seat, there's another non-aligned purser, mechanics, 2 pilots, office staff etc. On the capital side are always externals, people who do not work in the company but are votd into the board by the owners / shareholders based on their professional background.

The chairman of the boards, which controls the management and to which the CEO has to report, has 2 votes, all others have one vote.

In the current dispute, UFO has to avoid the impression that they strike against the outsourcing of jobs, which indeed would not be a legal cause fpor strike. That's what we have workers participation for. They have to reduce this on pay.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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Semaex
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:30 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 93):
Various so-called "zero rounds", i.e. years with no raises, have reduced the real incomes of LH's employees. And that is just the first thing I thought of.

Help, let's call the police on this crime against humanity.
This has been the case in most industries, especially in those countries which have been hit hardest by the economic downturn which has been going on since 2008 (which is the time frame you mention). LH would be a massively irresponsible carrier if they were going for payrises in troubled times. And the past 5 years have been exactly those times, with aviation at nowhere near the growth of previous years.
Do you really want to blame LH for not increasing the salary of young F/As on these grounds? That is exactly the selfishness that I mentioned before and that has corrupted the company from inside.

Quoting aloges (Reply 93):
I'd love to have LH's "troubles" - one of them is, for instance, massive investments into new aircraft and interiors that are supposed to happen without taking up any meaningful debt.

You make it sounds like this is a crime. You make it sound like this is something that can wait until LH is out of its personal dept, which may well be in 20 years from now, provided no other investments are made.
I'm glad you're not on the LH board.
Regarding the point "without taking up any meaningful debt": You do know how any profit is distributed at the end of the fiscal year within LH, do you not? One third is the dividend that shareholders receive, another third is the bonus the employees get (another reason why LH is such a desirable employer, but it's not like those striking F/As would notice the additional money -.-) and the third third is kept within the company for future investments. Now that's what I call a sensible handling of surpluses. I would love to see every company follow this example.

Quoting nicoeddf (Reply 61):
Damn, very rarely someone has written a statement I can so wholeheartedly agree too! You nailed it!

I appreciate your support.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast if you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:16 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 95):
Can't answer that correctly, but you have to understand that, in Germany, we have "workers participation" through a workers council and the items you have listed are items mthat have to be OKed by thw orkers council.

While it is a legal requirement, many companies, which should have one, don´t have it.
Often this is the result of pressure by the management. E.g. anybody who suggests setting up and employee´s council gets threatened (not directly, becauseb this would be easily provable and illegal, but any boss has means to make life miserable for an employee he doesn´t like) or the whole staff gets threatened with the threat of closing shop and re-opening it with "loyal" staff.

Since theoretically the employee´s council has a say if the boss wants e.g. to change shift patterns or pay structure, many employers don´t like to have one around.

Also many younger workers don´t care too much about their rights.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
wnflyguy
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:58 am

Buy the segestion of the great 3 LH staff personal and one awasome captin that refused leave us behind because of weight restiction they got all my travilling party thru MUC and to LHR and away from the mess in FRA.
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! WNFG  
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
Tobias2702
Posts: 287
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RE: LH Cabin Crew On Strike

Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:06 pm

It has just been announced by the "UFO" union that strikes will resume on Tuesday Sep 4, though no information about exact time and place yet.

http://www.ufo-online.com/ (German only)
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