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jetfuel
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:14 pm

More news articles from September 1 2012

The code-share agreement is believed to include route swaps whereby Emirates would operate the majority of flights on some routes such as those out of Perth to Europe. Qantas has been flying from Perth to Europe via Singapore.

However, the deal will raise serious questions about the future of Qantas' long-standing revenue-sharing agreement with British Airways on the kangaroo route between Australia and Britain.

Critics describe a code-share agreement as a short-term measure by Qantas management, which is under pressure to get a deal done. Early this year Qantas shelved much-trumpeted plans to set up a premium airline, RedQ, in south-east Asia.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/qanta...-20120831-255vs.html#ixzz258JVRtSp



The chairman of Emirates, Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed al-Maktoum, also said the deal would be a simple codeshare rather than a revenue-sharing accord.

Codeshare deals involve airlines putting their reservation codes and selling seats on each other's flights. It is a common industry practice already followed by both airlines that allows carriers to sell tickets to destinations they do not serve.


Qantas has previously had codesharing deals with Emirates, Gulf Air and Etihad but has not flown to the Middle East since it axed services to Bahrain in the 1980s.

Depending on how the deal is structured, it could give Qantas passengers access to Emirates' big European network of more than 30 destinations and possibly ports in other regions.

Qantas may elect not to codeshare on flights to London or to some destinations where it already has deals. such as Paris.

Emirates already has a strong brand presence in the world, with an 8.2 per cent market share in the year to May. It was the eighth-best airline in the world in the recent Skytrax rankings, while Qantas was rated 15th-best.

From the Emirates perspective, Australia is a key market and the tie-up would allow it to capitalise on Qantas's 65 per cent domestic market share, giving it access to passengers and destinations beyond the cities it currently serves.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...antas/story-e6frg95x-1226462750189
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:25 pm

What will happen to the code-share with AF via SIN? It seems to work well.

And I don't understand the point with OneWorld now? Why not for QF having closer links with CX. CX has an excellent network to Europe , not only LHR (FRA, DME, AMS, CDG, MXP, FCO etc.).
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:37 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 45):
Quoting dcaviation (Reply 43):
So this shows that OneWorld is OneJoke alliance.

I don't see how you conclude this? Can you explain?

Let me rephrase it. Its OneJoke alliance for Qantas.
Signing agreement with EK, Qantas is basically throwing in a towel, and showing other OW members big fat middle finger.
QF is prostituting itself. They don't have self respect anymore.
Why Australians prefer EK over QF? Because EK has a reputation of being high quality, high standards airline.
IMHO, instead of sleeping with the enemy, QF should raise its standards.

Are they really that stupid? If people will fly SYD-DXB-Europe, first part on Qantas and second part on EK, soon they will have no passengers on the SYD-DXB sector. People will realize that they can fly all the way on EK.
EK wont steal any passengers from QF, QF passengers will voluntarily choose EK next time they will have to fly, be it to Asia, Europe or any other place.
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 17):
Perhaps, with the new QF pax (and already full EK flights), EK simply cannot handle the amount of passengers, so passengers will be forced to use QF as well.

With all those 380s and 77Ws on order, I somehow doubt EK will have trouble flying that extra demand.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 24):
In Asia there is CX, JL and RJ.

And soon MH. We know CX and QF behave more like rivals than partners, but why not use KUL as a place to hand European-bound passengers over to MH?
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:09 pm

If this agreement goes through, it would be the second time in recent history that Qantas shoots itself in the foot. The first was when the management grounded the airline without notice.

I fully agree with those who asked why anyone would need to fly from Europe to Dubai on EK and then transfer to Australian cities with QF when they could do the entire flight on EK. Unless of course there are no seats on EK's flights.

If I could imagine, I see Emirates up-sizing every single flight to every single Australian city to the Airbus A380 ...

Funny how the airline that previous complained to no end about the amount of traffic rights given to EK is now in bed with EK. Only time will tell if this is another shot in the foot ... or a master stroke of strategy.

I would love to hear the opinions of a cross section of Qantas staffers.

If this means Qantas stops serving Singapore ... I can imagine SIA's management bidding farewell to Qantas with a huge send-off party, a lion dance, a dragon dance and a whole lot of gongs and cymbals ... plus fireworks.


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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting aviasian (Reply 54):
If this means Qantas stops serving Singapore ... I can imagine SIA's management bidding farewell to Qantas with a huge send-off party, a lion dance, a dragon dance and a whole lot of gongs and cymbals ... plus fireworks.

If I'm Singapore Airlines, I just demand the rights on the Australia -> US routes which were refused to me just a few years back. As of now, I would say there is no justification for denying it anymore. So long Qantas...
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:18 pm

For QF this deal is very good, perhaps they will utilize same amount of aircraft which is used right now for the European flights to shuttle people to Dubai. Just have a look to how many cities in Europe, QF passengers can now fly doing just one stop and this stop is for 90 % of cases enroute and not in costly Frankfurt, London etc.

Also both players will benefit from stopping price wars and consolidating market.

For both airlines this is more than beneficial and yes, this deal will bring QF more than the haul One World alliance.
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:18 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 53):
And soon MH. We know CX and QF behave more like rivals than partners, but why not use KUL as a place to hand European-bound passengers over to MH?

Because, like SIN, it's a long way from Europe and cannot compete with the networks of middle eastern carriers into the whole of Europe and North Africa.

M.E. carriers: 330 sized aircraft (or larger) can relatively easily do outbound and inbound trips in a day right across Europe - S.E. Asian carriers: require more than 1 aircraft to offer daily services and generally have to be the larger (thus longer-range) planes just to get to Western Europe and back.

Qantas with its heavy weighting toward the larger scale is better equipped to fly the longer legs (i.e Australia-DXB / Australia-LAX/DFW) then hand off passengers to the better equipped airline that can move its passengers to where they want to go (which is not always London!)

Not to mention SIN is a far higher yielding destination than KUL will ever be.

QF should just ditch BA and ditch LHR altogether on its own metal and just redeploy & compete with AU-Asia traffic, and fly to the Middle East and the West Coast of North America and hand off its passengers to more capable carriers.
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:26 pm

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 55):

Exactly! I'd consider SQ's chances in this case rather good actually!
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:28 pm

This is what makes me skeptical of allowing EK to expand substantially in Canada (though I don't mind if they grow a little in YYZ). Are Australians substantially better off in the long run with this move? QF will be largely reduced a domestic/regional carrier and EK will become the default Australian international carrier to Europe.

I am left wondering why QF can't create the same kind of arrangement at another hub with the rest of its OneWorld partners. And with so much traffic being passed to EK, is there even a point in QF being in OneWorld any more? Shouldn't OneWorld boot QF for being treasonous?
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:31 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 57):
QF should just ditch BA and ditch LHR altogether on its own metal and just redeploy & compete with AU-Asia traffic, and fly to the Middle East and the West Coast of North America and hand off its passengers to more capable carriers.

Why would a pax want to do MEL-QF-DXB-EK-CDG when she could more easily do MEL-EK-DXB-EK-CDG ?
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 55):
If I'm Singapore Airlines, I just demand the rights on the Australia -> US routes which were refused to me just a few years back. As of now, I would say there is no justification for denying it anymore. So long Qantas...

A. Singapore Airlines can do diddily-squat, it's the Singaporean Government which needs to negotiate the new treaty/rights.

B. Australian carriers have 5th freedom onward to Europe, South Asia & Africa via SIN but they do not have rights to fly AU-SIN-[North Asia] which is a FAR bigger market than AU-USA will ever be - so it's not all a 1-way street for Australian carriers!
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 60):
Why would a pax want to do MEL-QF-DXB-EK-CDG when she could more easily do MEL-EK-DXB-EK-CDG ?

If EK dropped one of its 3x daily frequencies to MEL and QF picked up one of them (or QF just added a 4th, 2nd non-stop (as 2 of EKs frequencies fly via SIN and KUL respectively)) flying a larger aircraft, what difference does it mate?

the whole QF-BA JSA works like this, people can be through-routed on the same flight number/aircraft of they will mix/match in SIN between BA and QF planes.

Note that this appears to be just a code-sharing agreement, I wouldn't be surprised if someone up in SYD has a brainfart and seeks to expand to something like the BA-QF JSA eventually.
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:36 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 49):
Death knell? No, just an almighty reality check, more like.

  

Those who are talking about the death of Qantas are kidding themselves. The death of Qantas in Europe maybe, but we know full well that Aus-EU is one of the lowest yielding markets in the world.

So long as there is an Australian domestic market and the USA, QF will remain. Those two markets are both profitable, it's some other areas which are black holes.

Quoting tayser (Reply 49):
Kudos to QF, there may just be hope for you yet.

I agree.

Quoting tayser (Reply 49):
The Canton route to London/Europe? lol - irrelevant!

Hmm, I wouldn't be so sure. CZ have big plans and in time I think that they will rise to challenge CX in all of Cathay's "traditional" markets.

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 51):
Why not for QF having closer links with CX

The two airlines hate each other. It will never happen.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 52):
QF is prostituting itself. They don't have self respect anymore.

That's a bit harsh. Go and look at AS - arguably one of the best run US carriers.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 52):
Because EK has a reputation of being high quality, high standards airline.
IMHO, instead of sleeping with the enemy, QF should raise its standards.

IMHO QF is a "high standard" airline. Long haul I actually don't see much difference between their product. QF is a higher quality airline than the European legacies, and while not SQ or CX standard can hold its own well. The reason people don't fly them to Europe is their chronic lack of network, not their quality.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 53):
why not use KUL as a place to hand European-bound passengers over to MH?

That was the original plan, but negotiations fell through

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...aysian-airline-on-partnership.html

Quoting aviasian (Reply 54):
If this agreement goes through, it would be the second time in recent history that Qantas shoots itself in the foot. The first was when the management grounded the airline without notice.

Shooting yourself in the foot by ending a long term industrial dispute in 2 days? Right I understand  

Of course the grounding cost the airline a fortune, and that was reflected in the balance sheet. That said, the drip-drip-drip nature of the industrial action was slowly but surely sapping the company

Quoting aviasian (Reply 54):
I fully agree with those who asked why anyone would need to fly from Europe to Dubai on EK and then transfer to Australian cities with QF when they could do the entire flight on EK.

Go to etihad.com and look at flights to SYD. You will see the VA codeshare come up. Don't forget that most people don't care who they fly, and even those who wanted to fly EY might not realise they were on a codeshare. QF-EK is merely a carbon copy of VA-EY. Is there any particular reason why it should work for one and not the other?
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:39 pm

I seem to be one of the few that thinks this will be a great improvement for QF. Flying the longer leg is always going to be the most profitable. With QF's tiny presence in Europe... This will help.

I also seem to be the only one who thinks that QF will be able to *much* better utilize their latent European rights in a partnership with EK. While QF is dropping FRA, I wouldn't be surprised to see them open Stuttgart and feed EK's network (do I recall correctly that they are limited bilateraly to SE Asia?).

EK is near to maxing out certain Australian rights. This is a win-win for both. The government of Dubai will make EK cooperate. They do not run EK for EK's sake, they run it for Dubai's sake. A partnership with QF will dramatically increase tourism to Dubai. Perhaps attract enough investment to get the construction going full tilt again.

For QF, it is connections. It is an excellent point to utilize African bilateral rights. India would have been an even better location, but the GoI wants to have its fingers in everything, so that make Dubai the best choice.

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 3):
HUGE changes ahead. Qantas doesnt need SIN - they will leave that for JQ

I would expect to see one QF SYD-SIN-LHR retained at least with JQ serving the other markets.

Quoting mariner (Reply 19):
Why team up with several airlines when you can achieve it all with one?

And tap into one of the more connected hubs...
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Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 33):
BA is flirting with QR at the moment.

This will 'wake up' all of OneWorld. OneWorld direly needs a better mid-east and Indian sub-continent strategy.

Quoting tayser (Reply 49):
I'm surprised it took this long to clue on the fact there are better ways of doing it.

Ditto. Fly the long leg, where the money is. It is a win win. It looks like concourse 3 at DXB is 'just in time.'   

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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:44 pm

I hate EK and hate flying to Dubai. If from Perth they plan to drop Singapore and use emirates I will be done with Qantas.
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:47 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 59):
Are Australians substantially better off in the long run with this move? QF will be largely reduced a domestic/regional carrier and EK will become the default Australian international carrier to Europe.


Well, if QF survive then yes we are better off. QF will never again be able to make Europe work, especially with the schedule and network to compete with likes of EK and SQ. They are better off cutting their losses and focussing on what they're good at: domestic and USA

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 64):
EK is near to maxing out certain Australian rights

  

A lot of people here seem to have forgotten that in asking 'why would anyone fly QF when it's easier [a term I struggling to comprehend] to go EK'. Well here's your answer: EK are pretty much maxed out on frequencies to SYD, MEL, BNE and PER. If those passengers want to fly Emirates then they might just have to suck it up and go Qantas

That said (from my understanding) EK have unlimited rights to other ports so ADL can continue to expand with EK and I even think CBR might be fair game for a flight

[Edited 2012-08-31 08:56:54]
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 64):
I wouldn't be surprised to see them open Stuttgart and feed EK's network (do I recall correctly that they are limited bilateraly to SE Asia?).

While STR would be the better choice than BER there are a few questions, first of all, does the Australian-german bi-lateral allow STR as destination. next, would there be local traffic rights or would DXB be a tech stop only.

Next, and that is the one I really don't believe - would EK be accepted not only as code-share but would EK be allowed to sell STR-DXB and beyond to other countries than Australia on that service.

Now, my personal opinion about German beaurocrats is not something i could print here, but they ain't that stupid to let EK sneak in through the back door.


 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:59 pm

Am curious on this arrangement...QF sponsored MH into OneWorld...Then the asian premium carrier deal with MH failed...QF now moved to EK...So whats the use of MH in OneWorld? BA announced new routes recently but KUL was never one of it n Asean cities can be fed by 3K/JQ.
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:03 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 18):
Could you kindly confirm with a source that e.g. LHR and JNB would be included in the "West of SIN" as you have stated it?

At least for JNB I htink that will depend on whether QA holds on to the 744's as planned. If they become too costly to operate I don't see QF continue to fly to JNB with twins. Is there enough demand for the A380?

Quoting ytz (Reply 59):
I am left wondering why QF can't create the same kind of arrangement at another hub with the rest of its OneWorld partners. And with so much traffic being passed to EK, is there even a point in QF being in OneWorld any more?

Because a.net insists that alliance partners do not competing with eachother   CX would never allow QF to setup a hub in HKG.
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 57):
Not to mention SIN is a far higher yielding destination than KUL will ever be.

Yes, but SQ is in *A while MH is, or will be soon, in ow.

Quoting changyou (Reply 68):
So whats the use of MH in OneWorld?

Exactly! SQ's use in *A is clear: funnel people from Europe to SE Asia and Oz. One would have imagined MH to play a similar role for ow.
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:31 pm

Can someone expand on the JV between BA and QF concerning traffic LHR-SYD? How would this alliance with EK affect this if the LHR slots are moved to EK metal?

As I understood it anything traversing LHR-SYD on BA or QF was metal neutral.

I do remember sitting in T4 at Heathrow having a a chat with a gentleman who couldn't believe his luck (perhaps not) on missing a BA flight to SYD and being moved to an QF A380 heading down under.
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:37 pm

BA is hardly famous for having the "on top down under" ethos these days and would probably prefer to ditch SIN-SYD and concentrate on it's core business or they could trundle along as a standalone flight.

QFs deal with EK might include one A380 still going on to LHR from DXB so it might not be a complete euro withdrawal. I'm of the opinion however that they are jumping into bed with the enemy which might come back to bite their tail later in the day.
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 59):
This is what makes me skeptical of allowing EK to expand substantially in Canada (though I don't mind if they grow a little in YYZ). Are Australians substantially better off in the long run with this move? QF will be largely reduced a domestic/regional carrier and EK will become the default Australian international carrier to Europe.

Exactly what I was thinking when I read this story.
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 57):
M.E. carriers: 330 sized aircraft (or larger) can relatively easily do outbound and inbound trips in a day right across Europe - S.E. Asian carriers: require more than 1 aircraft to offer daily services and generally have to be the larger (thus longer-range) planes just to get to Western Europe and back.

But the same applies now to Oz-ME: QF will need two planes for each daily rotation Oz-DXB and back, while it could easily do Oz-KUL and back with one plane in under 24 hours. How is DXB advantageous to QF?

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 63):
That[KUL] was the original plan, but negotiations fell through

So it was not such a crazy idea...
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 69):
I don't see QF continue to fly to JNB with twins. Is there enough demand for the A380?

IMHO QF does not have any choice but flying with quads to JNB for the time being. IMO the the demand is there, especially with the QF / SA codeshare agreement due to end at the end of the year? Otherwise they may have to fly a longer route to JNB which Virgin Australia tried earlier this year with their 77W's.

At this stage JNB gets 4-class 744's on a daily basis. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


Take care and have a good weekend.  


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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:01 pm

The other interesting consequence of cutting back on European flights is that some A380s might be freed up to do the DFW route.

Could this explain what seemed to be a crazy delaying of the 13th and 14th frames when SYD-DFW is screaming for A380s?

[Edited 2012-08-31 11:05:21]
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:01 pm

Quoting aviasian (Reply 54):

If this agreement goes through, it would be the second time in recent history that Qantas shoots itself in the foot. The first was when the management grounded the airline without notice.

I think it's the best move they can make given the reality. EK would decimate them if they remained competitors. Turning your arch enemy into your best friend removes the strongest competitor, strengthens the combined clout in the OZ-Europe market and opens up a whole new untapped market (basically the rest of Europe apart from Heathrow).

I can see a JSA from Oz to Dubai and codeshare on all routes Dubai to Europe. The additional passengers Qantas will carry to Dubai will more than offset stopping all services to Europe with the exception of Heathrow.

The only problem is that Dubai is congested during the hub hours. Holding is now a given and they don't have enough stands on the ground even after the new concourse (and the one after) opens.

The future is bleak for everyone else on the Oz to Europe routes. Even CX and SQ.
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 7):

For EK, I think a large part of what EK can gain in this deal is access to QF's FFP. If QF and EK do offer reciprocal FFP benefits than this will give EK a much larger access to the Australian flyer base than it does now. Otherwise, what is there for EK to gain given that EK is already a much bigger player than QF in the Kangaroo route?

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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:12 pm

Quoting Ychocky (Reply 71):
Can someone expand on the JV between BA and QF concerning traffic LHR-SYD? How would this alliance with EK affect this if the LHR slots are moved to EK metal?

The JSA is in place until 2015 and calls for BA/QF to share revenue and to jointly market one another's flights. In which case, if the EK/QF deal goes ahead then what does it mean for the BA/QF JSA ?
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting aviasian (Reply 54):
If this means Qantas stops serving Singapore ... I can imagine SIA's management bidding farewell to Qantas with a huge send-off party, a lion dance, a dragon dance and a whole lot of gongs and cymbals ... plus fireworks
Quoting chris7217 (Reply 58):
Exactly! I'd consider SQ's chances in this case rather good actually!

Qantas should continue flying to LHR over Singapore and use the FRA planes for Australia - Dubai flights.
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:48 pm

Hooray, one stop services and Qantas Frequent Flyer points from Dublin!

I imagine a lot of people in Europe will be happy to fly from their city, via Dubai to Sydney.

It's a hell of a lot better than two stop!

The route swap is extremely interesting, actually - if it's true and it may well be. My guess is that they will share Sydney and Melbourne, Perth goes to EK, Brisbane to QF, and similar things like that.

I don't see why this has anything to do with the oneworld alliance either. oneworld allows the airlines to make their own agreements. Qantas already has agreements with Air France, Alaska, South African Airways, and several others that are not in the alliance. This makes no difference whatsoever to oneworld.

Everyone bemoaning the death of Qantas is also wrong. Qantas will do what it does well - which is serve Asia, New Zealand, the USA and South Africa. They will also keep London Heathrow, though they might not need as many frequencies when you take out all the connecting passengers. Opening up all of Europe with EK makes a lot of sense.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 39):
Yes, I know, I met some of them 2 years ago in Athens. They all flew EK. So what's the deal for QF?


Presumably, because they could, and because they want to get there through London or Frankfurt. A lot of Australians fly Emirates.

Quoting aviasian (Reply 54):
If this agreement goes through, it would be the second time in recent history that Qantas shoots itself in the foot. The first was when the management grounded the airline without notice.

I don't know why you would think Qantas shot itself in the foot. That grounding stopped the union action against Qantas stone cold dead.

It was one of the most effective things I have seen a CEO do in a long, long time.

mariner

[Edited 2012-08-31 12:54:01]
aeternum nauta
 
TravellerPlus
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:53 pm

Qantas will not stop flying to SIN. It is a major Asian city and the QF group is the second largest airline group at Changi. The ties between the countries are deep.

As mentioned, dropping FRA will release aircraft to fly to destinations that support single-sector routes with fares that are equal to or higher than Europe eg SCL or JNB. If a QF jumbo leaves SYD for FRA on Monday afternoon, it doesn't return home until Thursday morning. It could fly to both SCL or DXB and JNB in a similar number of hours and earn twice the revenue of the FRA service. Financially it is a no brainier to drop FRA.

Working with EK will not preclude QF working with BA. Many people, like myself, have reason to visit both the UK and Europe. The QF/BA combination works very well for this. Also, the combined QF/BA network provides a range of stopovers, such as Japan, the USA, South Africa or China. This gives unparalleled global coverage.

QF gains more of Africa than oneworld can offer. The numbers might be small, but Australia has growing mining interests in the continent. The fares are high. I only know a few people who travel to from Australia to north or west Africa, but all of them fly 5 or 6 times a year in business class. All of them fly EK.

I see this as a pivotal moment in QF's history, but hardly one that signals its demise.
What goes around comes around....unless your luggage is not on the carousel...
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting TravellerPlus (Reply 83):
QF gains more of Africa than oneworld can offer. The numbers might be small, but Australia has growing mining interests in the continent. The fares are high. I only know a few people who travel to from Australia to north or west Africa, but all of them fly 5 or 6 times a year in business class. All of them fly EK.

As well as the Middle East.

Quoting TravellerPlus (Reply 83):
I see this as a pivotal moment in QF's history, but hardly one that signals its demise.

I agree. I think it's just simply difficult for some people to accept the fact that times have changed and Qantas has to adapt accordingly. No reason to point to the past in order to dictate the future. The landscape simply is what it is and the Qantas model of 2012 is not sustainable to compete in the global landscape profitably on its own metal.

The DJ/VA partnership with EY should provide some interesting data points in terms of how that relationship may provide stronger yields for VA moving forward.
 
UALWN
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 81):
I imagine a lot of people in Europe will be happy to fly from their city, via Dubai to Sydney.

But that is already possible now, flying just EK from Europe to DXB and on to SYD. There's no gain.
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Lufthansa
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting Aerosol (Reply 22):

Slowly but too late the aviation world realizes what Emirates is going to do with these 90+ A380....

bingo we have a winner. They are going to deploy them and push everybody else out capcity wise like it or not

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
good, but what are the real benefits for QF except of "offering one-stop services to 25 or 30 European destinations? That still leaves a couple of hundred which require another transfer.

The reality is, Qantas lost these passengers already long ago. Right now, those people who want to fly a QF partner
for FF status, if the distination is there are using cathay. But due to both convenience, better connections and an amazing product, plenty are ditching the status and just flying Emirates. In other words, QF already isn't seeing a cent of this traffic. Routing through DXB gives them a chance to get back in the game in some way.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 39):
Yes, I know, I met some of them 2 years ago in Athens. They all flew EK. So what's the deal for QF?

The chance to somehow get back in that market

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 39):
All the places EK serves in the Middle east and Europe EK serves from their Oz cities already today. That business has been lost by QF years ago.

Bingo....

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 55):

If I'm Singapore Airlines, I just demand the rights on the Australia -> US routes which were refused to me just a few years back. As of now, I would say there is no justification for denying it anymore. So long Qantas...

Okay what everybody needs to do is think of the potential here. Think of it more like what Northwest did, and now Delta does at AMS. All those A330s flying back to cities like BOS and SEA would have never been able to support NW/DL widebody service without the european hub on the other end. Right now, Qantas already doesnt see a lot of these PAX at all. Where it does, its sending them to Singapore or Hong Kong then onto the likes of Air france... for the largest part of the journey. Not an overly competitive prospect. Instead of multiple interline agreements...sending them on one via DXB would be a stronger marketing concept. It may actually generate new traffic, stealing them back from SIA and Cathay. Think about American and BA operating their flights jointly JFK-LHR. The joint effort by far makes them the strongest player in that market.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:16 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 86):
The chance to somehow get back in that market

If you can't beat 'em - join 'em. Makes perfect sense to me.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2639
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:27 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 87):

If you can't beat 'em - join 'em. Makes perfect sense to me.

This is it, all the 'death of QF' people are failing to realise... QF is basically already out of this market.
I would personally love to see the FRA flight stay as somebody with german family and heritage, but these
days when im In that part of the world i'm usually in CPH anyway. And guess what... thats right...EK works
for that too!

The next thing we need to consider is as EK gets more A380s, where else could they be deployed other than
Australia? It may very well be that other markets are pressing for them more urgently than Australia, so it may make
sense.

Also to answer the big question 'what does a QF customer get"... Status Credits towards elite status only available presently on oneworld flights. Right now, a QF passenger wanting to get to paris on a QF flight goes to SIN, and gets
miles, but not the all important status credits... continuing on AF. If they want the status they have to make a side trip to LHR and back track (not desirable if you're on a business trip and pushed for time... you'll most likely take AF) or take cathay pacific. (meaning QF doesn't make a cent). Going to DXB would be more attractive as the all important status credits would be given for the longer leg, rather than the shorter leg.

[Edited 2012-08-31 16:46:38]
 
tayser
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:39 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 74):
But the same applies now to Oz-ME: QF will need two planes for each daily rotation Oz-DXB and back, while it could easily do Oz-KUL and back with one plane in under 24 hours. How is DXB advantageous to QF?

EK destinations on offer to Europe: 30 odd.
SQ/CX/MH/TG/CZ/MU destinations on offer to Europe (combined (as there's a lot of overlap): half of that.

Why? Because the distances to cover the same amount of cities that EK do from East / South East Asia is huge and very wasteful for an airline.

So if QF is doing the long legs and putting 2 aircraft on each route - they only have to fly to one place so its passengers can then potentially move to 30 odd Euro destinations with a simple plane change in DXB.

The current situation with SIN: very easy for QF to have high frequencies from all AU ports to SIN because of distance and the use of 330s, but the huge distance to Europe [still] from SIN leaves very few of the non-LHR ports an option - look at SQ 13 European destinations, one or two of them are tag ons, half of what EK can offer....

becoming clearer why the single hub/point to transfer passengers is better to be located nearer the destination rather than the origin?
 
TravellerPlus
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:57 pm

QF pax will most likely receive status and miles if using EK, so long as they are ticketed on a QF flight number for the EK sector. This currently happens when flying on QF flight numbers operated by non one world airlines, including AF, SA)">AS, SA, OZ, BR, MU and VN.
What goes around comes around....unless your luggage is not on the carousel...
 
Carpethead
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:31 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 18):
Could you kindly confirm with a source that e.g. LHR and JNB would be included in the "West of SIN" as you have stated it?

Just a theory if QF goes down this path. I am sure SA would figure out some way to make it to Australia if there is a profitable market for the South African to/from Australia.

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 14):
Big step isn't it? Neither NH or VA are currently, nor likely will be soon, on the AUS-TYO market

Slightly big step. But NH is not totally new at SYD. They have or planning to re-start numerous cities that were served previously like RGN & BOM. The Virgin brand though not totally absent from the Japanese market but is a known brand. Unless there is a Japan-Australia bi-lateral that says there is only two carriers allowed on the TYO-SYD route both carriers can easily start services.

Quoting VH-BZF (Reply 38):
Think you're dreamin'

We'll laugh when QF is out of business in a few years.
Who'd thought QF & AN both be out of service back in the 1980s.  
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:44 am

Quoting carpethead (Reply 91):
We'll laugh when QF is out of business in a few years.

I can't imagine why that would be.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Quokkas
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting carpethead (Reply 91):
I am sure SA would figure out some way to make it to Australia

They already do as part of an agreement with QF, flying between JNB and PER. QF operate the SYD to JNB route. The codeshare arrangement ends at the end of the year.

There was a requirement to operate at least 14 weekly services between AU and SA. That requirement has since been reduced to 10 weekly services. A request by Qantas to extend the codeshare by five years was thrown out by the International Air Services Commission earlier this year. Qantas had said that one of the airlines could pull off the route if the alliance was not allowed to continue.

Previously, SA had said it was making a small profit on its own flights between JNB and PER but losing money on the Qantas flights it code shares on between Sydney and South Africa.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
hz747300
Posts: 2420
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:23 am

Quoting tayser (Reply 61):
Australian carriers have 5th freedom onward to Europe, South Asia & Africa via SIN but they do not have rights to fly AU-SIN-[North Asia] which is a FAR bigger market than AU-USA will ever be - so it's not all a 1-way street for Australian carriers!

That's the point. It's not a one-way street, and QF seems to always be losing out. To the point now, that it seems like it will shrivel down to a domestic carrier only. It isn't fair, but it's too late to save it.
Keep on truckin'...
 
mdavies06
Posts: 548
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:44 am

Quoting TravellerPlus (Reply 83):
Qantas will not stop flying to SIN. It is a major Asian city and the QF group is the second largest airline group at Changi. The ties between the countries are deep.

As mentioned, dropping FRA will release aircraft to fly to destinations that support single-sector routes with fares that are equal to or higher than Europe eg SCL or JNB. If a QF jumbo leaves SYD for FRA on Monday afternoon, it doesn't return home until Thursday morning. It could fly to both SCL or DXB and JNB in a similar number of hours and earn twice the revenue of the FRA service. Financially it is a no brainier to drop FRA.

Working with EK will not preclude QF working with BA. Many people, like myself, have reason to visit both the UK and Europe. The QF/BA combination works very well for this. Also, the combined QF/BA network provides a range of stopovers, such as Japan, the USA, South Africa or China. This gives unparalleled global coverage.

Agree.

One of the most problematic part of the Kangaroo route is the fuel cost and Qantas doesn't have the equipement to do it well with no hub in the middle. Aus-SIN is a major regional route and will stay.

With or without a QF-EK codeshare, UK is still the largest market and here QF and BA can still find a market with a one stop option in Asia. The same for its partnership with AF.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 85):
But that is already possible now, flying just EK from Europe to DXB and on to SYD. There's no gain.

QF can gain something by selling tickets on EK flights to many more cities in Europe. Currently this is not possible.

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 77):
The future is bleak for everyone else on the Oz to Europe routes. Even CX and SQ.

Agree.

Although I'd rather think that with this agreement, EK really has reached a high point and should have little room to grow further in this market too. Don't you think?
- EK would have gained access to the largest pool of frequent flyer base in Australia
- EK is already flying to all international ports in Australia which conceivable can support a near ULH range service to DXB.
- Oil prices not going to come down anytime soon, and the benefit of the next generation of aircrafts remain to be seen.
- The opening up of even more secondary ports in Europe in the coming decades will have marginal impact as EK is already flying to almost all major countries and cities in Europe which generate traffic to Australia.

IMO the future of QF lies in Asia and the Americas, where the ecomonies are growing, ties with Australia are also growing, and where QF can service with non-stop flights if it wants to. What the ongoing economic crisis globally is doing is not only slowing down Europe by slowing investment, but the policy response to it (which is monetary loosening which is causing a boom in commodity prices), is something that Europe can't afford. It is going to slow down Europe for many more years to come by slowing down its private and public balance sheet repairment. All in all the shift of economic activities to other regions in the world (where QF can serve better geographically!) will continue.

I can conceivable imagine that, say 15 years from now, EK will be serving Australia with the same number of seats as they do today, perhaps with a slight increase allowing for population growth.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:37 am

The other aspect to consider...and why this is a good move by QF...is that the Possible partners in the EU and QF's own government are financially abusing their own airlines with over taxation and over regulation. In contrast, EK's home government provides good infrastructure at a good price with reasonable regulation.

Better to sell seats at a profit than to fly them yourself at a loss.

Maybe someday some government officials will get a clue...but probably not until EK, SQ, CX, and other airlines from forward thinking free enterprise inclined governments have already eaten their competitive lunch.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2639
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:41 am

Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 95):
I can conceivable imagine that, say 15 years from now, EK will be serving Australia with the same number of seats as they do today, perhaps with a slight increase allowing for population growth.

I'd take it slightly more than that, accounting for a hopefully real increase in wages and living standards in australia on an export push to emerging economies. In europe, a major raise in real wages (as opposed to the nominal dollar value) might be quite some time off but I dont think Australia should suffer this in the medium term. But other than that, you're right... as EK's growth isn't coming from growth in the market, but rather, crowding out existing options. Singapore, Thai and Cathay may have squeezed the linkes of Air france, KLM, Lufthansa and Alitalia out of Australia, by offering a more competitive product, 1 stop allowing the by pass of sydney via their hubs, but just as this is happening, EK are now doing the same thing to those carriers, by allowing one stop at the other end to places like Glasgow. There growth is purely at the expense of the incumbents. If anybody needs the 787-8... its the likes of SIA and Cathay to fly straight into these secondary cities. Only its so much harder for them to ever do it because they can't get the india and Africa traffic on those flights as well.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:49 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 59):

IIRC, AC was interested in a revenue sharing agreement as long as they invested nothing in the route and got 50% of the profits. That 50% of the profit was enough to convince them that they wouldn't be relegated to a domestic /regional carrier ( kinda a given considering EK wouldn't be able to affect them on any European route with substantial O&D or any Asian route), which suggests that the 'real' threat in Canada's case was little more than AC doing LH bidding. EK refuses and I think they publicly accused LH.

In QFs case, EK probably see the potential of tapping into QFs FF base and thought it a worthwhile agreement (maybe theyre giving QF a big bag of change in exchange). An agreement that made no sense with AC might have made sense here.

I assume QF have done a cost-benefit analysis and stand to gain as much as EK.

Personally, I doubt QF is going anywhere. Granted I think QR makes more sense (and I would have preferred it) but QF will obviously be getting something out of this agreement. I think its a smart move given the competition. AC tried it too...and failed. Possibly because it had less to offer due to LHs alleged influence withim AC. QF isnt as beholden to any foreign airlime as AC is to LH. As for teaming up with European airlines, stepping from a QF cabin into an LH one is a great way of losimg customers... and I doubt LH will be generous to QF FFs in terms of miles. Its an incredibly stingy airline in terms of miles (and catering).
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5197
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:05 am

Quoting carpethead (Reply 13):
The beginning of the end for QF.

If you think Canberra will allow QF to fail then you are delusional. It won't happen in yours or my lifetime.

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