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sstsomeday
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:11 am

It's all part of EK's master plan. I'm surprised so many countries on the periphery of EK's route structure allow this decimation to happen, along with the loss of all the jobs and income for an (in this case) Australian company. To my mind, EK is a sort of virus. In today's economic climate, EK is growing exponentially while everyone else is struggling to stay afloat, because of a geographic position that cannot be countered. They don't even have close to half of their 380s, people, along with all the 787s and other twins on the horizon. The worse, by far, is yet to come. Unabated, it's going to be a bloodbath.
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United Airline
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:26 am

What the hell is wrong with them? A few years back they were expanding like mad. Now they are cutting so many routes. Wonder if these routes will be reinstated
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:34 am

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 99):
If you think Canberra will allow QF to fail then you are delusional. It won't happen in yours or my lifetime.

well it might in a sense... I could see them doing 'an alitalia'... and allowing virgin to buy the name/take over key routes etc.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:52 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 102):
I could see them doing 'an alitalia'... and allowing virgin to buy the name/take over key routes etc.

Why would that happen? Qantas is a very wealthy corporation, with over $3 billion in cash reserves.

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Lufthansa
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:11 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 103):
Why would that happen? Qantas is a very wealthy corporation, with over $3 billion in cash reserves.

mariner

It wouldn't just if the impossible happened and they went through it all. it won't come to that, they'd stop all flying except domestic before it got to that point. Of course, if they ignored commercial reality, and flew to everywhere they previous did with the 747 a handful of times a week and making multiple tag ons just to keep the network going, you could probably go through that 3 billion in cash in about 6 or 7 years. Obviously people are going to take aciton before it ever gets so far.
 
UALWN
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:19 am

Quoting tayser (Reply 89):
So if QF is doing the long legs and putting 2 aircraft on each route - they only have to fly to one place so its passengers can then potentially move to 30 odd Euro destinations with a simple plane change in DXB.

But passengers can already do this by flying EK alone. So what exactly does QF add?

Quoting tayser (Reply 89):
becoming clearer why the single hub/point to transfer passengers is better to be located nearer the destination rather than the origin?

Most people fly return trips, so the origin will become the destination on the inbound trip, and the destination will become the origin. I don't see your point.
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:39 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 104):
Obviously people are going to take aciton before it ever gets so far.

Sure, and I think that action has been taken.

In my book, CEO Joyce has bitten the bullet of reality in several remarkable ways. He understands that there are no sacred cows - which is bound to upset a lot of people.

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MHG
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:22 am

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 52):
Why Australians prefer EK over QF? Because EK has a reputation of being high quality, high standards airline.
IMHO, instead of sleeping with the enemy, QF should raise its standards.

I wonder if QF would be able to spend the neccessary huge amount of money to increase the passenger´s flight experience to be at least close to EK´s ...
"Sleeping with the enemy" will - some time down the road - marginalize QF´s overall market presence to a regional carrier at best beyond the point of no return.
But they might survive this way - somehow - but longhaul mainly limited to flights to the US

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 52):
Are they really that stupid? If people will fly SYD-DXB-Europe, first part on Qantas and second part on EK, soon they will have no passengers on the SYD-DXB sector. People will realize that they can fly all the way on EK.
EK wont steal any passengers from QF, QF passengers will voluntarily choose EK next time they will have to fly, be it to Asia, Europe or any other place.

This is exactly what will happen.
I really don´t see EK struggling to carry all those wanting to fly EK only.
EK will deploy 380´s to all Oz destinations and - at a later stage - probably even find ways to get bi-laterals changed to their advantage.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 53):
And soon MH. We know CX and QF behave more like rivals than partners, but why not use KUL as a place to hand European-bound passengers over to MH?

Sounds like a perfect match at first glimpse but how many destinations does MH serve in Europe ???
Forget it.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 67):
Now, my personal opinion about German beaurocrats is not something i could print here, but they ain't that stupid to let EK sneak in through the back door.

But they did with the AB/EY deal ...
Last time I heard EY was still an airline based in the UAE.
So, why measuring with two different scales was possible here ?
(It was obviously because of EY being the last straw for AB´s survival)
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:34 am

Quoting MHG (Reply 107):
But they did with the AB/EY deal ...
Last time I heard EY was still an airline based in the UAE.
So, why measuring with two different scales was possible here ?
(It was obviously because of EY being the last straw for AB´s survival)

Contrary to QF, AB is a German carrier and that makes the whole difference.
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qf002
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:35 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 105):
But passengers can already do this by flying EK alone. So what exactly does QF add?

1. The corporate market, which is one thing that QF most definitely does still control.

2. Access to regional markets. While that seems like a small issue, it was enough for SQ to jump into bed with VA, so it's a big consideration for an airline that already has saturation in the major centres.

3. Additional access to major centres, where EK is very close to maximum capacity.

4. Further collaboration could see EK dropping Australia-Asia legs, allowing them to increase the efficiency of their operations in Asia.

5. QF might also add traffic (though probably not that much) to EK's SIN-Europe flights, if they were to redirect their LHR/FRA flights through DXB.

The relationship does make sense, even if there are other scenario's that make more sense. This is a big opportunity for EK, because QF is starting to get a bit desperate. So they probably have pretty favourable terms.
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:00 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 109):
The relationship does make sense, even if there are other scenario's that make more sense.

Other relationships may make sense, but I don't know of any that make more sense.

Whatever posters individual affections for Qatar or Kuwait Airways may be, Dubai is the glittering star of the Gulf destinations.

But a great hub is two things, a desirable destination and and a natural crossroads - and that's Dubai and Emirates.

So I think this - whatever it is - is a bit of a coup for Qantas, and I don't see the airline as a bit desperate.

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bill142
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:25 am

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 55):

If I'm Singapore Airlines, I just demand the rights on the Australia -> US routes which were refused to me just a few years back. As of now, I would say there is no justification for denying it anymore. So long Qantas...

Yeah because they Australian government is going to buy their lack of competition argument?  
Quoting United Airline (Reply 101):
What the hell is wrong with them? A few years back they were expanding like mad. Now they are cutting so many routes. Wonder if these routes will be reinstated

Of course they won't be. Haven't you noticed how management has capitulated and is now handing over all traffic heading west to EK?
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:14 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 48):

If QF breaks from oneworld, immediately the SCL and DFW routes would be in jeopardy, while LAX would have to be cut back a bit.

Not necessarily. QF has stand alone agreements with many airlines and has immunity in place with AA to collaborate. AA likes QFs feed into its network and QF likes AA's feed onto its flights...no need for OW. Likewise SCL, LA will struggle with its flights to SYD without QF feed and QF would struggle at SCL without LA feed so its best for both to co-operate.
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vhtje
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:55 pm

Do we know 100% that the deal is with EK and not RJ?

The only reason I ask is because I am currently in Amman, and have been for most of the last 2 months. The road from the airport to Central Amman today is festooned with Jordanian and Australian flags - and I mean festooned, there are hundreds of them, on every bridge, light pole and roundabout. I can find no reference to any visiting Australian dignity - although Foreign Minister Bob Carr was here early in August, the flags were definitely not out last week.

I admit it seems an extremely long shot, but I can find no reason why there should be so many Australian flags flying in Jordan.
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koruman
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:03 pm

I do see one potential problem for Qantas.

The conventional logic is that the Kangaroo Route is a recipe for losing money because it entails two-sector flying and ties up aircraft for more than 24 hours.

The solution is widely advocated as being the model where there is an intermediate hub, with one carrier flying Europe-Hub and the other flying Hub-Australia.

But the problems for Qantas are that:

1. Dubai is 3/4 of the distance to Europe. Australia-Dubai is much the dearer sector to operate, and again aircraft are going to be away from base for around 32-34 hours, making scheduling and timetabling difficult.

2. Premium Economy currently delivers high profits for the limited space it occupies, but Emirates don't operate such a cabin.
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:04 pm

Quoting vhtje (Reply 113):
Do we know 100% that the deal is with EK and not RJ?

That would be solid gold if they did, to be honest! RJ serve quite a few cities in Europe, though some are codeshares. That would be very hilarious (since people would faint at the unexpectedness of it - on here and in the Australian media), yet somehow quite interesting if so  

[Edited 2012-09-01 06:06:08]
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Quokkas
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting vhtje (Reply 113):
Central Amman today is festooned with Jordanian and Australian flags

The Governor General of Australia is in Jordan for a state visit from Saturday, 1 September to Tuesday, 4 September. She will not be announcing any link up between RJ and QF.

http://www.gg.gov.au/news.php/view/i...to-the-hashemite-kingdom-of-jordan
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LJ
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:52 pm

Quoting changyou (Reply 68):
Am curious on this arrangement...QF sponsored MH into OneWorld...Then the asian premium carrier deal with MH failed...QF now moved to EK...So whats the use of MH in OneWorld? BA announced new routes recently but KUL was never one of it n Asean cities can be fed by 3K/JQ.

I wonder how the management of Mh thinks of QF's plans and wonder if they still think oneworld is their best option...

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 77):

I think it's the best move they can make given the reality. EK would decimate them if they remained competitors. Turning your arch enemy into your best friend removes the strongest competitor

Unless EK and QF get anti-trust immunity they remain competitors.

BTW isn't a codeshare (in the absence of full revenue sharing) always more beneficial to the airline operating the flight?
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:14 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 86):
bingo we have a winner. They are going to deploy them and push everybody else out capcity wise like it or not

Like it or not? A very defeatist point of view.

It is called competition. Time for the other airlines to show they have game instead of complaining. Realize they have plenty of advantages and start using them.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 99):
If you think Canberra will allow QF to fail then you are delusional. It won't happen in yours or my lifetime.

If you think they will back up QF no matter what then I think you are delusional. I'm sure Australia will have an airline in some form for a very long time, not so sure it will be named Qantas. That said, I do not see it happening soon.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 100):
EK is growing exponentially while everyone else is struggling to stay afloat, because of a geographic position that cannot be countered.

EK is very smart about using their geographic position but never forget they add several hours and a lot of expenses to each individual transfer flight.

Time for the competing airlines to use their advantages instead of folding over.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 109):
The relationship does make sense, even if there are other scenario's that make more sense. This is a big opportunity for EK, because QF is starting to get a bit desperate. So they probably have pretty favourable terms.

Clearly there are big opportunities. Equally clear there are big risks. This is one of QF's defining moments. Time will tell if it was right.

My prediction is that we are witnessing QF's transformation in to a regional airline. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Geographically Australia is in a corner and it makes it a lot harder to reach other corners.
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huaiwei
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 3):

QF can dump SIN completely and merely fly to DXB and let EK connect with another 30 cities in Europe. It will be sold as opening up over 100 new destinations for Qantas customers. Even SYD-DXB-LHR is more profitable as the fuel burn/loads are way kinder to the A380

HUGE changes ahead. Qantas doesnt need SIN - they will leave that for JQ

QF can dump SIN and surrender the market to SQ at its own peril.

All five components of the SQ Group (SQ, SQC, MI, TR, TZ) fly to Australia, and for good reason. The market is sizeable and profitable.

- 956,039 Australian tourists visited Singapore in 2011 (4th largest market)
- 318,500 Singaporean tourists visited Australia in 2011 (6th largest market)
- 6,952 Australians moved to Singapore for long-term stays, and 3,746 Singaporeans went the opposite way in 2011.
- Singapore is the fourth favourite migration-destination for Australians, and Australia is the favourite migration destination for Singaporeans.
- In 2006, there were 49,819 Singaporeans in Australia, of which 11,199 were in Perth.
- 16,126 Singapore students entered Australia on student visas in 2011.
- The Australian International School in Singapore has over 3,500 students, 67% of them from Oceania. Student enrolment is the highest in Asia, more than thrice the enrolment in HK.

Quoting tayser (Reply 61):
A. Singapore Airlines can do diddily-squat, it's the Singaporean Government which needs to negotiate the new treaty/rights.

B. Australian carriers have 5th freedom onward to Europe, South Asia & Africa via SIN but they do not have rights to fly AU-SIN-[North Asia] which is a FAR bigger market than AU-USA will ever be - so it's not all a 1-way street for Australian carriers!

First of all, it is usually the Singapore government pushing the Australian government to the negotiation table because Singapore has been trying to sign an OSA with them, so I am not sure what sources you are looking at to make that statement.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2003/s952195.htm

Secondly, my impression from their 2003 CMU was that there is full fifth-freedom rights for both airlines out of each other's respective countries, except for the trans-Pacific restrictions for SQ. Perhaps you may show me the relevant documents as I could not find it on the web (only found the outdated ASA)?

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 111):
Yeah because they Australian government is going to buy their lack of competition argument?

QF's argument that the route is particularly important to them for bringing in the most money is also moot now.
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ElPistolero
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:58 pm

This is undoubtedly one of the more interesting possible events/threads around here. One way or another, everyone seems to be convinced that it is a watershed moment.

From an aviation perspective, I can understand the surprise, since airlines are often treated as sacred cows that, althought privately owned, have some kind of national significance. From a buisness perspective, however, the deal doesn't look that surprising, provided some basic conditions are met.

For example, I am pretty certain that QF thinks it stands to gain something from this, something that it believes is acceptable to its shareholders (lets not forget that these are the people who matter most to QF, not the average Australian traveller). As much as we would all love to see QF tails shining in the sun in every airport in Europe, lets face it: with the ME and Asia sitting in between, those routes were always going to be vulnerable to Asian and ME competition. QF has realized that and focused on making sure that it can get the most money out of it. Tying up with EK makes sense in this regard. Provided they get something out of it.

If they run it in the way that AC/LH run their shop (revenue sharing and all) then I think it can benefit both. If we use some of the logic put forth by some of the posters here (particularly the German ones), then we have to remember that despite AC's outsourcing of some of its traffic to LH, people didn't switch to LH en masse, and AC didn't exactly become a regional airline - at least thats the consensus here in Canada (FWIW, most of AC's TATL routes fall within the A330 range, which seems to be a criticism of QF often).

So to the Germans and Canadians (who have plenty to say about EK) I ask - why is QF/EK any different to AC/LH? They're obviously trying something to do with FFs (so there is something of an 'alliance' basis to it). There may be revenue sharing. It can be a win/win for both. There's more than enough competition from external actors like CX, TG and SQ, not to mention EY and QR, so consumers are protected. Has AC turned into a regional carrier? Has LH stolen AC traffic (granted, part of this might be down to LH's relatively poorer offering)?

At the end of the day, QF's goal is to make money. If QF makes more money by investing less aircraft (think costs) on routes that aren't always profitable, but still picks up a healthy bag of change, its profits will go up. Will this hurt it in the future? I don't think so. Given the rising wealth in Asia, it can focus on an Asian market that is not going to be affected by EK (no matter how hard EK tries), while letting EK pick up the pieces on ULH traffic (like the AC/LH relationship of today). There will always be growth opportunity - dropping FRA doesn't necessarily mark the end of expansion, nor is it a harbinger of ...errr...retraction (?). With Europe's economy in a less than happy state, the benefits of using one's own metal (with the relatively higher associated costs) might simply not make sense.

I think QF's shareholders will be happy with this in the long term. I am sure some here will be mighty angry about QF tails not being everywhere, but that is not QF's raison d'etre. Its goal is to make money, and if that involves 'sleeping with the enemy', so be it. Complaining about it is irrelevant; in fact, in this age of MNCs, its probably quite hypocritical since most of the people complaining about how EK is going about its business, are picking up dividends from companies that may only be able to afford dividends because they're outsourcing to India/China at the cost of the "local jobs/industry" in the countries that some of these folk reside in.

Airlines don't have a 'higher calling' that makes it necessary for QF to park a tail in FRA. If you want that, nationalize the airline and subsidize loss-making routes.
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
But giving up Europe altogether? No services north of Singapore, or better India, at all?

Maybe they can get EK to buy most of their 380's - looks like they won't be needing as many now

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 43):
So this shows that OneWorld is OneJoke alliance.

I put in a lot of miles on oneworld and never found that alliance to be a joke. Dropping oneworld might be a good first step in QF becoming a Domestic airline only.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 45):
As things stand, QF has to survive and if they think that getting close to EK will accomplish this then Oneoworld nust come second.

QF just needs to be very careful as to how far they push oneworld down

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 48):
If QF breaks from oneworld, immediately the SCL and DFW routes would be in jeopardy, while LAX would have to be cut back a bit.

If QF breaks away from oneworld then the US to Australia routes might be changing a bit. AA delivers pax to QF from around the US and, while that market might be down right now, it can make money over time. I'd be surprised if QF cuts off their nose to spite their face.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 81):
It's a hell of a lot better than two stop!

Which is one reason I'm excited about this venture. It moves the hub to a better location for QF than SIN. At SIN, not only is it a two stop flight, but long legs are flown by someone other than QF.

I could see QF partnering with airlines other than EK at DXB. Far more airlines than would be possible at SIN.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 88):
The next thing we need to consider is as EK gets more A380s, where else could they be deployed other than
Australia? It may very well be that other markets are pressing for them more urgently than Australia, so it may make
sense.

EK is short on aircraft, so it is possible to see some rationalization of resources.

Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 95):
The same for its partnership with AF.

Moving the transfer to DXB also shifts the revenue to QF as they will be flying the majority of the distance. I'll be curious to see how the flight distribution shifts.

Is EK/DXB definative? I'd like to know more. Or are we commenting on someone's hope/fear?

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 120):
If you want that, nationalize the airline and subsidize loss-making routes.

Because AI has shown how well that route works...   

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migair54
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:01 pm

I don´t understand this.... it´s very weird.... Actually I think EK does not need QF at all for the Kangaroo route but maybe to get more slots in LHR only.

If they want to do this kind of agreement why not QR in OneWorld?? they already serve Perth and Melbourne so QF can do Brisbane and Sydney and try to compete a bit with EK, SIA....

Is QF planning to use this planes for new markets?? like Brazil?? it could be nice addition, however difficult to compete with LAN.

I think i remember I read that QF candel the B787 so I don´t really understand much this situation, I thought they might use them to reduce some B747 flight and make them more profitable using small planes with good yields....
 
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mariner
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 7:28 pm

Ben Sandilands of Crikey has been aggressively attacking Qantas - and CEO Joyce - for the past couple of years, but he seems quite reasonable about this rumour:

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...te-hand-over-expected-within-days/

He also posts another rumour going the rounds - that as part of the deal Qantas will get some (used) Emirates 777's:

"There is speculation being circulated that Qantas may get some Emirates 777s to play with."

I don't buy it - we're told it is just a code share - but IF it's true, if Qantas does get some 777's, that should set a few hearts on a.net fluttering.  

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UALWN
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 109):
3. Additional access to major centres, where EK is very close to maximum capacity.

Can't EK deploy another 380 or two (or three!) to those major centers?
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:07 pm

I could imagine that may be this is a nice way for EK to get more flight rights into Germany. QF could extend a Australia-DXB easily with a fifth freedom DXB-Germany.
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 119):
Secondly, my impression from their 2003 CMU was that there is full fifth-freedom rights for both airlines out of each other's respective countries, except for the trans-Pacific restrictions for SQ. Perhaps you may show me the relevant documents as I could not find it on the web (only found the outdated ASA)?
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1967/25.html

scroll down to the Annex

AU carriers can fly from any port [optionally via Indonesia] to Singapore and on to anywhere, including Kuala Lumpur, except Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, The Philippines, Mainland China, & Canada/USA via a north Pacific routing. North Asia is blocked out.

SG carriers can fly from Singapore [optionally via Indonesia] to Australia and onto NZ - note this section does look out of date because SQ is subject to the BNE/SYD/MEL/PER rules and that's probably what the MoU from 2003 went on to amend - whether they amended the AU carrier restrictions, I can't say - but I bet one of the reasons - apart from the lower cost base on Singapore - 3K fly SIN-PEK rather than JQ is to get around these restrictions.
 
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:40 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 123):
If they want to do this kind of agreement why not QR in OneWorld??

EK could provide, with one stop shopping, more en-route connections to Europe. DOH, even the new DOH, doesn't have the growth room.

DXB is also a far larger 'classic wayport.' By that I mean it is a collecting ground of various airlines who freely trade passengers and cargo. While EK is the 'big boy' there, there are far more additional opportunities at DXB. It is simply the '1st mover advantage.'

Quoting UALWN (Reply 125):
Can't EK deploy another 380 or two (or three!) to those major centers?

1. EK is short of A380s. They are needed elsewhere. It will be years before the current shortage is rectified and there might be another.
2. A code share allows EK to isolate SQ out of some of their feed. A win for EK
3. This partnership has huge benefits for QF.
4. EK is basically at their route allocations for the highest demand cities.
5. While they can go from 77W to A380, QF is still competitive enough that that takes time to grow the demand. This shortcircuits the process by a decade.

Overall, Dubai wants the connecting traffic. Traffic that bypasses Dubai has no value. It also gives EK a chance to compete for more European traffic.

Does QF/Jetstar have the rights to set up a mini-hub in Australia? I know there is some rights. e.g., for every trans-tasmanian right EK has, there is a right for QF to Europe with the same provisions. But what is the limit for QF?

Lightsaber
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TravellerPlus
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:09 am

Lightsabre, given the debate about how "Australian" the QF group is and how much will remain in Australia, the typo wondering whether they have the rights to set up a mini hub in Australia is amusing.  

I presume you meant to write Dubai?
What goes around comes around....unless your luggage is not on the carousel...
 
hz747300
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:30 am

Quoting TravellerPlus (Reply 129):
Lightsabre, given the debate about how "Australian" the QF group is and how much will remain in Australia, the typo wondering whether they have the rights to set up a mini hub in Australia is amusing.

Agreed sort or an sad & ironic funny. Like would the EK group allow QF to maintain a hub in Australia.
Keep on truckin'...
 
Quokkas
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:58 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 124):
Ben Sandilands of Crikey

"This is where we could see Qantas in its support role for the Emirates global vision benefiting, more as an agent than a real airline," is the bit that may well sum up the relative position.

I agree, the idea that EK may provide QF with some 777s seems a bit far-stretched, given that both Tim Clark and Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum have ruled out any equity in QF and that EK is constantly complaining that it can't get enough aircraft. The phasing out of A332 and A343 has already been delayed, so I am not sure where any spare 777s would come from.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 125):
Can't EK deploy another 380 or two (or three!) to those major centers?

Over time this will happen. TC has indicated he wishes to introduce the A380 to PER within 12 months and it is likely that other 777 routes will be upgauged.

As a side note, my understanding is that under the MOU signed in 2010, EK can increase frequencies to the four gateways beyond the set 84 weekly direct flights. They have the ability to introduce an additional 21 weekly flights provided they are routed via a regional destination first.

Quote:
Both delegations further agreed on additional 21 frequencies to getaway points provided that are operated via regional points, under the "enhanced regional package"

Source: http://www.ameinfo.com/223910.html

Theoretically, they could introduce a DXB-DRW-SYD, for example.
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Gemuser
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 128):
Does QF/Jetstar have the rights to set up a mini-hub in Australia?

Assuming you mean DXB, the answer is yes, unless my memory is playing tricks on me (not impossible!)
I believe DXB is a "free port" that is the government places no restrictions on airlines operating to/from DXB (subject to slots being available, I assume). So no problem there.


Most, if not all, of Australia's bi-laterals with European countries allow for stop overs, with 5th freedom rights, in the "Middle East" and have done so since L749s ruled the airways. The only possible problem that COULD arise is the operating flights that don't originate in Australia. That could limit the number of flights from any hub. On the other hand IF (and it's a big IF) the EU/Australia Open Skies agreement is ever signed, that could over come that.

I've been advocating a Middle Hub for QF for more than 10 years. The only real problem I see is QF & EK working together. That worries me, otherwise it's a "grand plan".

Gemuser
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EK413
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:56 am

Quoting chris7217 (Reply 41):
Quoting hz747300 (Reply 46):

Who cares what OW and CX think of the QF / EK Alliance... Did CX approach QF when they introduced 4 x Daily ex-SYD for example...? There is no cooperation between the 2 so who cares... End of the day QF need a new network partner to connect Europe and Australia and EKs network is exactly what QF need to accomplish it...

EK413
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hz747300
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:36 am

Does anyone have the numbers on how much AU -> EU traffic is routed though SIN now? I wonder how much of a squeeze on SQ / SIN this will do. Or how much on CX / HKG for that matter.

When I was living in Sydney and traveling to HK once a month, SQ was always the cheapest by at least A$200. Nice thing about this agreement, is that fares should come down on the EU routes for Oz citizens, just to keep up with the EK flood. Having flown both, EK is better service on board than QF, and that's Aussie flight attendants on EK.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 133):
Who cares what OW and CX think of the QF / EK Alliance...

I don't recall saying CX/OW would care, just pondering why they would not be first choice--tongue in cheek--when I fly QF I only receive 50% of the miles in my CX account. The disgust between them is palatable and well documented on A.net.

I still believe in terms of any independence, it is a bad deal for QF over the long haul. As many have said, why fly QF to DXB, when you can book EK all the way. Ultimately with cheaper fares on other carriers with arguable the same or better service, QF will pass on to a domestic carrier with some flights to North America. If people stop caring about quality, then going to North Asia, via China (Air China, China Eastern, etc..), it will create an even tighter death grip on QF.
Keep on truckin'...
 
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huaiwei
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:09 am

Quoting tayser (Reply 127):
AU carriers can fly from any port [optionally via Indonesia] to Singapore and on to anywhere, including Kuala Lumpur, except Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, The Philippines, Mainland China, & Canada/USA via a north Pacific routing. North Asia is blocked out.

SG carriers can fly from Singapore [optionally via Indonesia] to Australia and onto NZ - note this section does look out of date because SQ is subject to the BNE/SYD/MEL/PER rules and that's probably what the MoU from 2003 went on to amend - whether they amended the AU carrier restrictions, I can't say - but I bet one of the reasons - apart from the lower cost base on Singapore - 3K fly SIN-PEK rather than JQ is to get around these restrictions.

I have seen this document. I am referring to the 2003 MOU, which may have removed most, if not all, those restrictions. I vaguely remember SQ complaining that QF is getting full fifth-freedom rights out of Singapore while it does not get the same out of Australia, but I could be wrong. Every source I searched would talk endlessly about the trans-Pac flights, and hardly reveals much else about the agreement.

I don't see how the 3K and JQ routing on SIN-PER indicates anything. Both has full rights to fly any frequency they want between Australia and Singapore. However, 3K can take advantage of more liberal ASAs out of Singapore to SE Asia and E Asia, which Australian carriers do not enjoy. This does not necessarily mean the Australia-Singapore ASA is not liberal either, since it depends on Australia's rights agreements with the onward destinations.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 122):
It moves the hub to a better location for QF than SIN. At SIN, not only is it a two stop flight, but long legs are flown by someone other than QF.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 122):
Moving the transfer to DXB also shifts the revenue to QF as they will be flying the majority of the distance.

1. I am not sure how DXB offers one stop, while SIN offers two stops on the kangaroo route, unless you are talking about services to smaller European destinations? If so, does it really matter to most travellers?
2. How would QF flying the longer leg neccesarily translate to higher yields, when costs also go up along with revenues? Would QF be able to maintain the same level of frequency into DXB as they do now via SIN, and all with the same number of planes?

[Edited 2012-09-01 21:11:54]
It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
 
docpepz
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:36 am

JQ using Australian aircraft and rights out of Singapore fly the following fifth freedom routes:

SINDPS (JQ-coded flight does this 5 times a week or something)
SINPEK
SINKIX (starting later this year)
SIN-AKL-MEL

3K does not fly SINPEK. JQ does. The flight in theory originates in MEL, stops in SIN and goes onto to PEK as one flight number.

They may be operated by the SIN base, but they still use Australian route entitlements out of Singapore

QF flies:

SINFRA
SINLHR


Australian carriers are thus flying 6 fifth-freedom routes out of Singapore.

The Singapore-Australia Open Skies Agreement allows for Australian carriers to fly unlimited services to and through Singapore, and Singaporean carriers to fly unlimited services to and through Australia - except the USA.
 
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EK413
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:20 am

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 134):

Reason CX wasn't approached is the same reason QF launched JQ Hong Kong... There isnt any cooperation between the 2 which is sad really considering both carriers are suppose to assist one an other...

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2639
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:56 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 133):
Who cares what OW and CX think of the QF / EK Alliance... Did CX approach QF when they introduced 4 x Daily ex-SYD for example...? There is no cooperation between the 2 so who cares... End of the day QF need a new network partner to connect Europe and Australia and EKs network is exactly what QF need to accomplish it...

here here well said. Cathay should have... years ago... got closer to EK but it steadfastly refused knowing it had the upper hand. Now... there is another option. Cathay will of course control the china/north asia business market. But it may lose its once very sweet european connection..

BTW does anybody know if cathay have removed 'the torture chair' from its australian a330 flights?
 
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EK413
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:47 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 138):
BTW does anybody know if cathay have removed 'the torture chair' from its australian a330 flights?

SYD was one of the 1st cities to receive the new J/C seating and Premium Y/C product and appears other ports will be upgraded gradually... I have included a link http://www.ausbt.com.au/melbourne-pe...lass-and-premium-economy-this-week

Cheers...

EK413
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jetfuel
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 131):
agree, the idea that EK may provide QF with some 777s seems a bit far-stretched, given that both Tim Clark and Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum have ruled out any equity in QF and that EK is constantly complaining that it can't get enough aircraft.

Well...... something to consider that may (not) be part of this week's announcements.

EK is running out of landing rights in a number of European ports. QF sets up a quasi DXB base with 777 a/c and operates QF flights into places EK cant get any additional rights. Suddenly there are now QF and additional EK seat capacity into ports EK wants more capacity. win win.

IF QF is playing this super smart and pull off some of these concepts it may make Joyce look like a wizz kid.

It makes sense. Can the 787 and use that capital to take on some 777 fleet from EK.
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
qf002
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:01 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 140):

It seems far too complicated and convoluted to me. EK has said that this will just be a simple codeshare deal -- that's all that I'm expecting to see.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting TravellerPlus (Reply 129):
I presume you meant to write Dubai?

   Oops. You are correct.  

That is one heck of a typo!

Quoting gemuser (Reply 132):
The only real problem I see is QF & EK working together. That worries me, otherwise it's a "grand plan".

Since it will benefit Dubai in the short term, I think Tim Clark will be told what is good for him. Oh, he'll re-arrange it to assure EK makes a profit. But this is quite an opportunity for both.

Lightsaber
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a6ega
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 140):

So QF flies to YVR from SIN with EK carrying traffic from DXB via SIN....? Possible? Way to get around into Canada too?
 
LJ
Posts: 5463
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 140):

EK is running out of landing rights in a number of European ports. QF sets up a quasi DXB base with 777 a/c and operates QF flights into places EK cant get any additional rights. Suddenly there are now QF and additional EK seat capacity into ports EK wants more capacity. win win.

However, the bilaterals don't always allow more than 2 airlines on a route.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 128):

EK could provide, with one stop shopping, more en-route connections to Europe. DOH, even the new DOH, doesn't have the growth room.

However, QRs new strategy to get into Europe with narrowbodies will probably lead to more QR in Europe than EK in the long run.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 128):

1. EK is short of A380s. They are needed elsewhere. It will be years before the current shortage is rectified and there might be another.

They're short of A380s because of the A380 having to go into non scheduled maintenance. Moreover, if EK would give some 777s to QF, this would create a bigger shortage.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:58 pm

Quoting a6ega (Reply 143):
So QF flies to YVR from SIN with EK carrying traffic from DXB via SIN....? Possible?

Not possible. The Canada-Australia bilateral restricts Australian carries to service to YVR (and one other point in Canada of their choice) via intermediate points of NAN, PPT, HNL, SFO only.
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 145):
Not possible. The Canada-Australia bilateral restricts Australian carries to service to YVR (and one other point in Canada of their choice) via intermediate points of NAN, PPT, HNL, SFO only.

If you use Jetstar Asia, then that is a Singapore Company using Singapore Rights, not Australian ones.  
 
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zkokq
Posts: 518
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:36 pm

Quoting a6ega (Reply 143):
So QF flies to YVR from SIN with EK carrying traffic from DXB via SIN....? Possible? Way to get around into Canada too?

THIS! is exactly what I was thinking.

I see this being a great move for the Qantas group. I really hope this works out. Its one of the most exciting things to happen in Aviation (other than my beloved 787 getting off the ground) for a while now.
 
ytz
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:23 am

What's all this talk about Canada? DXB isn't all that popular a destination for Canadians, except as a transit point.
 
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zkokq
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RE: Qantas To Axe Frankfurt - EK Announcement Imminent

Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:32 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 148):
What's all this talk about Canada? DXB isn't all that popular a destination for Canadians, except as a transit point.

Its popular for people inbound though for the ski slopes?

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