Knife Passes Security Control Into An A320 Cabin

Gonzalo · Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:45 am

A Vueling Airbus A320 flying from La Coruna to Amsterdam was climbing out when the crew stopped the climb following a report by cabin crew, that a knife had fallen out of a passenger's backpack. The aircraft returned to La Coruna.

One flight attendant observed the knife falling and informed the flight deck

A knife undetected by the airport security is a big deal ...

Thoughts ?

http://avherald.com/h?article=455404ca&opt=0

PHX787 · Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
A knife undetected by the airport security is a big deal ...

In America this would cause a huge uproar, believe me

CrimsonNL · Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:06 am

Well if the LCG security check is as "thorough" as other security checkpoints I've experienced in Spain, then I can't say I'm surprised!

Gonzalo · Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:21 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
In America this would cause a huge uproar, believe me

I believe you... and the chances of the man carrying the knife being authorized to board again and complete the flight without even being interrogated are ZERO in U.S. soil... Apparently Spain has a more "relaxed" way to deal with this events...

Rgds.
G.

PanAm788 · Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:35 am

I agree with CrimsonNL, can't say I'm surprised. Flew through MAD a few times earlier this year. Security took 30 seconds: Shoes? Fine, Belt? Leave it On, Forgot to take liquids out? No big deal. Plus no body scanner machines and a relaxed group of employees.

Definitely a weak spot in the world-wide impenetrable defense forcefield that is airport security.

ZKOJH · Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:01 am

shocking for all involved ,

I passed through KUL last week, and that was shocking too in Security, to the point I had to raise an issue with them, a PAX in front of me taking a big bottle of water through, well over the 100 ML rule, the staff were like this is normal nothing we can do about it, if they want to drink let them! WTF answer is that??!

Maverick623 · Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:29 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
A knife undetected by the airport security is a big deal

Depends on the kind of knife. A 7-inch machete should raise alarms, but I don't see why butter knives (or even small pocket knives) should even be prohibited.

gc2 · Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:16 am

It is a bit crazy though. Once through security you can buy a glass bottle of pretty much any size, which can do a lot of damage. I think more intelligent pax profiling and common sense is the way to go.

Rara · Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:23 am

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 4):

I agree with CrimsonNL, can't say I'm surprised. Flew through MAD a few times earlier this year. Security took 30 seconds: Shoes? Fine, Belt? Leave it On, Forgot to take liquids out? No big deal. Plus no body scanner machines and a relaxed group of employees.

Just to offer a different perspective, I found MAD security no different to most other European airports I've been through, and all in all I found MAD rather restrictive in terms of security (no doubt a result of the 2003 terror attacks).

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 6):
but I don't see why butter knives (or even small pocket knives) should even be prohibited.

I agree. If you can hijack a plane wielding a butter knife, frankly you deserve the bloody plane.

EIDL · Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:25 am

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 4):
I agree with CrimsonNL, can't say I'm surprised. Flew through MAD a few times earlier this year. Security took 30 seconds: Shoes? Fine, Belt? Leave it On, Forgot to take liquids out? No big deal. Plus no body scanner machines and a relaxed group of employees.

That's just Europe in general.

I've had to take my shoes off once in the past 12 months of fairly extensive travel and that was LGW on a "lets do everything to everyone" day. They'd just got a mini-xray for shoes fitted since the last time I was through, probably wanted to use it.

Generally setting off the metal detector in Europe results in a far less obsessive over-reaction than it does elsewhere too.

ghifty · Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:26 am

What sort of knife was it?

Quoting gc2 (Reply 7):
Once through security you can buy a glass bottle of pretty much any size, which can do a lot of damage.

Eventually TSA will discover this, and we'll all be flying in straightjackets.

Quoting PanAm788 (Reply 4):

I agree with CrimsonNL, can't say I'm surprised. Flew through MAD a few times earlier this year. Security took 30 seconds: Shoes? Fine, Belt? Leave it On, Forgot to take liquids out? No big deal. Plus no body scanner machines and a relaxed group of employees.

THIS is very true.

I flew out of BCN recently, and they seem to be a lot more lax than other European airports and, especially, US ones. I started taking off my shoes ".. you can leave them on.. ." Started taking laptop out of it's bag ".. it's okay, leave it in there.. ." Left me a little worrisome after dealing with TSA.

Icaro · Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:42 am

Have you ever sliced a can of Coke in two? there you have two perfect cutting knives ready to do any harm you want.
Want a bottle of wine? you got plenty of those in a plane, break one and there you go
Ever broke a wine glass? that can slice your neck in two...
Want some tuna? eat it and later you got a perfect knive with the tin...
and so on.....
a plane is full of potential weapons, you don't need to carry any on board, they are already there.

a secure cockpit door? that can help maybe. Other measures and checks are more discouraging than effective...

shufflemoomin · Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:43 am

Quoting ghifty (Reply 10):
I flew out of BCN recently, and they seem to be a lot more lax than other European airports and, especially, US ones. I started taking off my shoes ".. you can leave them on.. ." Started taking laptop out of it's bag ".. it's okay, leave it in there.. ." Left me a little worrisome after dealing with TSA.

Yet there's no more airborne terrorism in those airports than the US. What does that tell you?

Asturias · Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:47 am

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 2):
Well if the LCG security check is as "thorough" as other security checkpoints I've experienced in Spain, then I can't say I'm surprised!

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/08/2...ston-bag-screeners-distracted.html

http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/2012...a-baggage-screeners-aren-t-perfect

I've gone through security checkpoints in the UK with 1L bottle of liquid in my hand luggage, a lighter and a knife (swiss army) without even an eybrow being lifted.

Security is a show, a demonstration - a spectacle for our amusement. Taking off shoes, banning of liquids..

ghifty · Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:53 am

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 12):
What does that tell you?

It tells me that Spain has more relaxed security policies because they're not as much of a terrorist target as, say, the US?

Heck, Spain hasn't ever dealt with an airplane hijacking (to my limited knowledge).

EDIT: Oh, I think I understand what you meant. Are you saying TSA's requirements are moot?

[Edited 2012-09-03 02:06:43]

UALWN · Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:05 am

I travel all the time extensively all over Europe and I don't see large differences between theater, I mean security, in Spain or elsewhere in Europe. I never have to remove my shoes anywhere (until they asked me last month in KEF), I don't need to remove my liquids almost anywhere, but I do have to get my laptop out everywhere (including BCN and MAD).

ghifty · Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:08 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 15):
I don't need to remove my liquids almost anywhere, but I do have to get my laptop out everywhere (including BCN and MAD).

Ah yes, it's the liquids they don't require you to remove! That's interesting. I must have flown through BCN on one of those rare occasions where security slips up. Only my second time.

lukeyboy95 · Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:53 am

One has to consider that some things are going to fall through the gap... all it takes is a momentary lapse of concentration on the screener's behalf and the damage is done. Whilst the action is still conducted by humans there will be a margin of error.

I got through LTN (by accident) with a 'Swiss Army Card' which has a few (admittedly very small) blades on it. I was surprised as I had made the same mistake at LHR some years before - they caught it and I had to mail it back home.

RWA380 · Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:29 am

I have a diabetic friend, and twice he has unintentionally gone through security 4 times, with an injection needle in his bag. Now I do not know if one is allowed to take, in cabin, injection needles, but he usually checks his needles to avoid any possible conflict or embarrassment (his threshold is very low)

Gonzalo · Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:55 am

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 12):
What does that tell you?

That question has many answers.

1.- TSA is doing a lot of senseless scandal with safety in USA, with no better results than Spain.... but OTOH they dealt with probably 100 times more flights every year in the US compared with the number of flights in Spain... that could be a factor to take into account.
2.- Spanish are lucky people.
3.- The next case of an airliner diverting or doing an emergency landing with a moron trying to kill everyone ( like the DL flight from AMS or the explosive shoe before ) will have a Spanish airport as origin, instead AMS.

Probably much more answers, but those are enough for me.

Rgds.
G.

peh · Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:02 am

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 5):
I passed through KUL last week, and that was shocking too in Security,

It's a cultural thing.

I lived in China for two years and I'll never forget walking out of the STERILE AREA at PEK's brand new terminal without my kid's pram. I raced back inside, walked up to the 16 year old they had standing at the customs exit, ranted at him in English and HE LET ME STRAIGHT BACK IN without any rescreening or even showing ID. This was just a month before the Olympics.

Being a well-dressed white guy will open a lot of doors in Asia... even ones that should be locked tight!

scbriml · Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:37 am

If you knew everything that gets through airport security checks and onto planes every single day, you'd be shocked. You only ever hear about ones like this because of something that happens subsequently.

With respect to laptops in or out of bags, in my experience, that varies from airport to airport and may depend on the nature of the scanning equipment.

Belts and shoes, at least at Heathrow my last time through, are now only randomly checked. Just how randomly was illustrated by the fact that the guy in front of me was wearing flip-flops and was asked to put them through the scanner!

shufflemoomin · Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:52 am

Quoting ghifty (Reply 14):
It tells me that Spain has more relaxed security policies because they're not as much of a terrorist target as, say, the US?

Heck, Spain hasn't ever dealt with an airplane hijacking (to my limited knowledge).

EDIT: Oh, I think I understand what you meant. Are you saying TSA's requirements are moot?

That's exactly what I mean. All these hoops to jump through in the US yet it's not worse or better than any other country for safety. It's ridiculous that whenever something happens on an airliner once, people become obsessed with the fact that it'll happen all the time from now on. US airlines fly in and out of Europe all the time. If terrorists wanted to attack them, they could. Security theatre is unnecessary and I'm sure there would be statistics out there to prove it. I wonder what the stats are for stopping a genuine threat against lack of attention allowing items through that could have been used as threats but weren't? I'm sure I know the answer to that.

Fabo · Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:26 pm

You know that airport security is a fcked up theater when the guy who was supposed to teach you the rules and how to use them, jokes about them.

The single one reason we have not seen a hijacking since 2001 is change of mind of the passengers. Those guys on 9/11 probably thought they are getting a free trip to Cuba. You could not successfully hijack an airplane nowadays, everybody would rather kill you or die trying. Not feasible anymore. With that in mind, not letting you bring onboard your swiss army knife or nailclippers is idiotic.

Aircraft bombing, on the other hand, I would still consider a real risk, in a way. However, practice has shown that only single idiots are doing this anymore. Apparently, bombing an airplane is no longer a worthwhile endeavor for proffesional groups like Al Quaeda, IRA, or (Spanish!) ETA. (admittedly the last two are inactive). Why that is I dont know, I guess PR effect has changed. Meanwhile, if I wanted to do something bad, security theater measures are laughably easy to circumvent, and all just a burden on regular well-meaning passengers.
Example? They would not let me take my half-liter water bottle on board (OK, they did in FRL on Friday, but that is beside the point), but if all I wanted was to get 500ml of liquids on board, all I have to do is put it in 5 small bottles and put those in a bag. If the concern is, that an individual would be able to bring large amount of flammables on board, how about putting a limit on total volume?
Say, you can bring one litre on board. Whether you do two half litre coke bottles or 50 bottles of 20ml perfume testers is your decision.

pvjin · Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:34 pm

Yeah, I believe that knives and other stuff like that pass security checks daily all around the world, even in US. I remember how I forgot battle full of water into my backpack and it went through... Even heard a story about some military guy who was flying on a charter flight and forgot hand grenade in his bag and it went through, not sure if that was a true story but I would imagine that it could happen.

But anyway I agree with Fabo, biggest threat nowadays are aircraft bombings.

rwsea · Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:44 pm

Quoting ghifty (Reply 10):
I flew out of BCN recently, and they seem to be a lot more lax than other European airports and, especially, US ones. I started taking off my shoes ".. you can leave them on.. ." Started taking laptop out of it's bag ".. it's okay, leave it in there.. ." Left me a little worrisome after dealing with TSA.

It is not a requirement to take shoes off at security in Europe - or anywhere else for that matter (except for the US). Kind of makes you wonder .... Hundreds of international flights headed to the US daily, and people didn't take off their shoes to go through security! Oh the horrors...

breiz · Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 15):
I travel all the time extensively all over Europe and I don't see large differences between theater, I mean security, in Spain or elsewhere in Europe.

In Europe I can think of AMS, MRS, SVG, GVA, CPH, OSL, HEL, LHR, CDG, NCE where in recent months knives and liquid would not go through.

UALWN · Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:06 pm

Quoting breiz (Reply 26):
In Europe I can think of AMS, MRS, SVG, GVA, CPH, OSL, HEL, LHR, CDG, NCE where in recent months knives and liquid would not go through.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that knives and liquids (beyond the maximum allowed) do go through all the time in Spanish airports? I don't think so...

lhcabincrew · Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:15 pm

we serve steel knifes with our menues aboard!

ushermittwoch · Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:39 pm

I've taken a Leatherman through US security by accident within the last two years.
I have also taken a FULL 1.5 liter bottle of water through German security last year.

I will not name the airports here.
They were both medium-sized ones though.

babybus · Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:47 pm

Heavy security is killing the airline industry. So if everything is getting a bit more relaxed probably due to better profiling of suspects then why not.

We are not all terrorists and the chances of any of us here being the victim of a mid flight security incident are the same as me winning the lottery. That ain't going to happen either.

We underestimate the scope of national intelligence.

dlphoenix · Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:57 pm

The TSA detection rate is not 100% either,
A few months ago a colegue of mine carried a 4" switchblade into an airplane in the pocket of his coat. He discovered it when we reached our destination and ended up checking his carry-on bag on the return flight because he didn't wan't to risk losing it.

DLP

stevenmeyer2005 · Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:06 pm

Yesterday, 3 of September 2012, at Malaga airport the woman in front of me in the security line was asked if she had a knife in her bag after her bag was scanned. She started to remove items from the bag and found a small Swiss army knife. The woman apologized and tried to hand the security officer the knife but he replied that it is fine and she can put it back and continue.

Are the rules on pocket knifes different now?

Fabo · Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting stevenmeyer2005 (Reply 32):
Are the rules on pocket knifes different now?

There is a size limit IIRC, something in the spirit of up to one inch is ok.

packcheer · Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:35 pm

While we are talking about airport security.....

Last year I went through airport security about 6 times at various points around the US...

In my carry on was a 3 inch folding knife. I call it a utility knife, but it's big and sharp.

It was completely on accident, I found it in December and I was shocked it was in that bag...

On to my point. If that knife can slip through security at the multiple airports I flew through over last fall, I am not surprised at anything getting through security.

mayor · Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:15 pm

Several years ago we were travelling out of DUB. Security detected a pair of plier type nail clippers in my carry on via x-ray. So, security started searching my bag, to no avail.....the even ran it thru the x-ray again, but no luck......Finally, they gave up and passed me thru. When I got back home, I was unpacking the bag and found the clippers, behind the liner, in the bag.

EIDL · Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting lhcabincrew (Reply 28):
we serve steel knifes with our menues aboard!

I'd find it hard-pressed to think of any full-size airport that doesn't have knives in airside restaurants. A steak knife can do a fair amount of damage to someone, definitely able to get them in DUB.

Pretty much anything done since the mid 1990s in airport security is theatre, no more. Its there to convince the general public that flying is still safe and to create sales for the firms that make the scanners/detectors/gas chromatographs/whatever they've decided they need this week.

I can actually remember when *everyone*, even people dropping others off, collecting an arrival or there to go to the spotting gallery had to go through metal detectors in DUB. Took a few seconds, airport far safer inside than it is now with the ridiculous EU-mandated checks for airside only.

747438 · Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
A knife undetected by the airport security is a big deal ...

In America this would cause a huge uproar, believe

I take it you are joking !?
I work in security at LHR and can tell you that on a daily basis, that knives are found on pax that have travelled from the US and are transiting the UK. To my mind, as one who works in the industry, US security is amongst the worst in the world.

XFSUgimpLB41X · Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:24 am

I accidentally had a knife in my flight kit for 3 months after I started flying for the regionals (in a survival kit that I kept in there when I flew corporate). Let me just say the TSA is truly exceptional.

PHX787 · Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:57 am

Quoting 747438 (Reply 37):
I take it you are joking !?

Hahaha in a way I am. I'm mostly talking about the media!

acedriver · Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:34 am

Quoting lukeyboy95 (Reply 17):
I got through LTN (by accident) with a 'Swiss Army Card' which has a few (admittedly very small) blades on it. I was surprised as I had made the same mistake at LHR some years before - they caught it and I had to mail it back home.

Strangely, the last time I was flying home from LHR, the Terminal 5 security staff let me into the departure area without realizing that I had a Swiss Army Knife in my backpack...

AR385 · Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:46 am

Last time I passed through FRA, which was about 6 months ago, security was very heavy. They made me take off my shoes, my belt, and asked me to turn on my laptop. And they were doing this to everybody. The line was very long.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 18):
I have a diabetic friend, and twice he has unintentionally gone through security 4 times, with an injection needle in his bag. Now I do not know if one is allowed to take, in cabin, injection needles, but he usually checks his needles to avoid any possible conflict or embarrassment (his threshold is very low)

I suppose you may need a letter from a doctor. When I was insuline-dependent, I flew LH MEX-FRA and realized at mealtime I had forgotten my needles. So I asked the FA if they had some. She said she had to call the Purser. So the Purser comes, a very nice guy, asks me by my last name if there is any problem. I explain the issue to him, and he says that they have two medical kits. One for not so serious stuff, which he can open, and one with the serious stuff, including needles, but to open that one he needs the authorization of the Captain. So up to the Upper Deck he goes and is back in 10 mins with a needle. he was very nice and apologetic, which is ironic. I should have been the one being apologetic.

StuckInCA · Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:57 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
A knife undetected by the airport security is a big deal ...

It should be, but I'm unsurprised.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
In America this would cause a huge uproar, believe me

Only if reported.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 14):
It tells me that Spain has more relaxed security policies because they're not as much of a terrorist target as, say, the US?

Are you actually asserting that this only happened because it's in Spain and that it couldn't have happened in the US? I can't tell if you're joking.

A few months ago, my mom came to visit (SMF-SEA). When she got here she started scouring her suitcase for the gifts she had brought for my kids and found roughly a 7" serrated kitchen knife in the front pocket of her carry-on. A very sharp, high end knife. My father had probably (idiotically) put it there when using the suitcase for a non-flying trip (who knows) and my Mom (idiotically) never checked before packing. Either way, nobody said anything. It made it here.

Even prior to that incident, I assume that only some percentage of things would get caught. I get out my laptop and my liquids, take off my shoes and get X-Rayed yet they don't catch a knife.

YYZYYT · Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:30 pm

Quoting Fabo (Reply 23):
Aircraft bombing, on the other hand, I would still consider a real risk, in a way. However, practice has shown that only single idiots are doing this anymore. Apparently, bombing an airplane is no longer a worthwhile endeavor for proffesional groups like Al Quaeda, IRA, or (Spanish!) ETA. (admittedly the last two are inactive). Why that is I dont know, I guess PR effect has changed. Meanwhile, if I wanted to do something bad, security theater measures are laughably easy to circumvent, and all just a burden on regular well-meaning passengers

What about the August 2006 plot to blow up multiple flights from the UK? Not sure it is was ever actually confirmed to be Al Quaeda, but it was certainly an organized plot...

I think it is fair to say that security standards vary widely. My favourite for strict is IST which required an x-ray check point to get into the TERMINAL, and some "up close and personal" time with a polite but menacing police officer in a screened cubicle. My favourite for lax willl always a flight out of NAS, where security waved me AROUND the scanner because I was pushing a stroller with a baby.

Maverick623 · Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting dlphoenix (Reply 31):
The TSA detection rate is not 100% either,

In fact, "red team" detection rates have been on the order of ~35%

mayor · Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:09 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 43):
I think it is fair to say that security standards vary widely. My favourite for strict is IST which required an x-ray check point to get into the TERMINAL, and some "up close and personal" time with a polite but menacing police officer in a screened cubicle. My favourite for lax willl always a flight out of NAS, where security waved me AROUND the scanner because I was pushing a stroller with a baby.

One of the guys I worked with at DL, when we were going thru the PA transition, was travelling thru several different European cities and he mentioned that when flying into Bucharest, you had to go thru security, coming OFF the plane and into the terminal.

Fabo · Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:33 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 43):
What about the August 2006 plot to blow up multiple flights from the UK? Not sure it is was ever actually confirmed to be Al Quaeda, but it was certainly an organized plot...

Oh, well, yes. Still, this was not caught on the checkpoints, but rather before getting even as far as getting tickets. As it should be, I suppose.

Maverick623 · Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:37 pm

Quoting Fabo (Reply 46):
Oh, well, yes. Still, this was not caught on the checkpoints, but rather before getting even as far as getting tickets. As it should be, I suppose.

As it should be. It's pretty funny, though, how they fuel conspiracy theories. Start following the bad guys and building the case too soon, and it becomes an "inside job" PR mission to "scare the populace".

Just like the underwear bomber, where some people have said that it was clearly an inside job. To me, it sounds like the government didn't know as much as they thought and were just gonna tail the guy in the US, but in a twist worthy of a bestselling crime novel (or a certain Friends episode), they knew that we didn't know that they knew that we knew.... oh ... my head....

bennett123 · Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:33 pm

My understanding is that liquids up to 100ml are OK provided that the containers are in a clear plastic bag.

In that case, once through security, with my plastic bag containing these little containers, suppose I tip all the little bottles into the plastic bag.

I now have a plastic bag containing almost 1000ml of liquid.

Am I missing something here, or have a just pushed a cart and horses through the security circus.

EIDL · Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 48):
Am I missing something here

You're not. The liquids drama is just one of many dramas now making up the wonderful yet fundamentally no safer than before security theatre.

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