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mariner
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:09 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 49):
I cannot imagine that they would choose Qantas via Dubai or Virgin Australia via Abu Dhabi, regardless of whatever reassurances they may be offered.

I know Australian and New Zealand Jews who have flown Emirates.

There was the famous case of the Kiwi Jew who flew TT with Emirates, asked for a kosher meal and complained when he didn't get it.

I love it. That's one of my definitions of chutzpah.  

mariner
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C010T3
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:10 am

It's like KLM-Northwest all over again.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:14 am

This is what JQ International could look like in a few years if EK got involved and JQHK happens.
http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/zkpilot2/mapPPEK-SIN-HAK-HKG-NNG-SIN-BKK0d0a.gif
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:27 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 47):

No more Premium Economy to UK/Europe from Brisbane, Perth or Adelaide
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 51):
It's like KLM-Northwest all over again

which is still a powerful model and working well today.
 
81819
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:30 am

Wow, what a network!

Australia now has an airline that is capable of connecting to every part of the world.

This is good news, not just for QANTAS, but for Australia. This is going to strengthen our ties with the middle east, whilst keeping our Asian ties intact. I think this could be the catalyst for Australia truly becoming a multi-cultural nation.

I just hope the tie up doesn't artificially bring the re-structuring of the core Qantas business to a premature end.

Good day for Qantas and Australia.
 
monteycarlos
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:37 am

Quoting travelhound (Reply 54):
I just hope the tie up doesn't artificially bring the re-structuring of the core Qantas business to a premature end.

I wouldn't think that will happen. Qantas International are strongly committed to delivering the 'four-pillar' turnaround plan, and this is an essential element of that.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
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allrite
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:37 am

Joyce said that Emirates and Qantas would match service levels to whoever has the higher standard. So maybe Y+ for Emirates.
I like artificial banana essence!
 
Lufthansa
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:47 am

Quoting allrite (Reply 56):

Joyce said that Emirates and Qantas would match service levels to whoever has the higher standard. So maybe Y+ for Emirates.

Meaning an attempted at product consistency on the route, though undoubtedly he is talking a soft product. so fingers crossed this substancially increases demand. I have every reason to think it will by the fact we are talking basically the worlds largest long haul hub here...that's very powerful and QF having exclusive access to the Emirates side of the terminal. Meaning easy and seemless connections and those very big lounges in DXB.

Also if there are any further plans to fly to DXB from other cities using QF metal, my guess is they are gonna stay mum about them for now. Why? QF probably want to be able to go to Fair Work Australia and force some redundencies to Long haul as part of a cost restructuring process. Then, if there is increased demand rehire for this at cheaper rates.
 
Sydscott
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:47 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 26):
As such, I wonder whether, at some point in the future, Emirates and QANTAS may want to, or be able to, pull IAG into their new JV. My, what a combination that would be.

For IAG this expands their options in the EK vs QR argument. It'll be interesting to see who BA eventually chooses.

However I think the even more interesting OW airline to watch is American Airlines. With Etihad now in bed with Virgin Australia, and one of AA's major partners now in bed with EK, it'll be interesting to see if they switch as well.

As per usual CAPA now have an excellent analysis up on this deal.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...son-next-qatar-into-oneworld-81650

Well worth the read.
 
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:57 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 57):
and those very big lounges in DXB.

Though they're built for holding a lot of people and that's about it; referring to the J lounge here. But also there's no need for QF to build their own lounge.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
bill142
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:59 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 47):
No more Premium Economy to UK/Europe from Brisbane, Perth or Adelaide.

When have you ever been able to fly Premium Economy on QF from Perth or Adelaide?
 
koruman
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:22 am

As ever, Ben Sandilands is right on the money, if I may introduce a fair-use quote:
......................................................

"Under Alan Joyce as CEO, and led by Leigh Clifford as chairman, the Qantas Group has seen its brand trashed, its share price ruined, its dividends stop, and its capacity or will to actually provide a Qantas service to important emerging markets diminished.

The so called Asia based single aisle premium but minority owned carrier that was going to subsidize the revival of the Qantas long haul brand is a stateless, brandless failure.

The Arabs that were the subject of such derisory insults from Qantas lobbyists in Canberra over a period of time, and in particular recently, are now being embraced as saviors."
........................................................

Who would have thought it? Qantas becoming a "virtual airline"?
 
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mariner
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:32 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 61):
The so called Asia based single aisle premium but minority owned carrier that was going to subsidize the revival of the Qantas long haul brand is a stateless, brandless failure.

How does he know that?

mariner
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Sydscott
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:34 am

Quoting koruman (Reply 61):
As ever, Ben Sandilands is right on the money, if I may introduce a fair-use quote:

You mean more biased crap from him.

Quoting koruman (Reply 61):
Who would have thought it? Qantas becoming a "virtual airline"?

The Qantas "virtual airline" has been in place for quite sometime and significantly longer than VA. Specifically with;

Asiana;
Eva Air;
Vietnam Airlines;
Japan Airlines;
Aircalin;
Air Nuigini
Air Pacific
Air Tahiti Nui
Air Vanuatu

This Emirates deal is an extension to it.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 57):
Why? QF probably want to be able to go to Fair Work Australia and force some redundencies to Long haul as part of a cost restructuring process.

At least we now know for sure how they will get down to 9 744's. This puts another 3 744's potentially on the scrap heap come April next year. I'd also not be surprised to see QF pull some of the International configured A330's flying domestically back into Asia OR maybe some of those JQ A332's coming back to QF mainline when 787's start arriving in 3rd quarter next year won't all be coming back to QF domestic. The re-furb of the 16 767's now starts to make even more sense given this announcement.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:37 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 58):
As per usual CAPA now have an excellent analysis up on this deal.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...son-next-qatar-into-oneworld-81650

Well worth the read.

Thanks for sharing...was an amazing read and confirms my suspicion that after QF has done
some "resturcturing/house cleaning" at its long haul division, (read potentially forced redundancies and
outsourcing) it may seek to offer flights from DXB to europe to cities where EK can't. Like DXB - BER.

Another goal to remember. EK exists not only for profit but as a means of making DXB a transfer point
rather than asia. Stealing a big bunch of PAX previously going through SIN or Hong Kong would please
Dubai's Administration. They may be willing to encourage QF growth to supplement EK's operations rather
than maximize EK's return on each of their australian flights. This is about to get interesting.
 
monteycarlos
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:45 am

Not sure if this weblink has been posted already but here it is:

http://www.qantasandemirates.com/

Interesting use of what appears to be the NATO 4 point star.   
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
tayser
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:48 am

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 48):
Was that 14 flights daily from Australia to Dubai from 2013 between Emirates and Qantas? Is that any different from what Emirates already flies between Australia and Dubai. Sorry I haven't taken the time to count the daily frequencies each week.

MEL: 3x daily (1x DXB-MEL, 1x DXB-KUL-MEL, 1x DXB-SIN-MEL)
SYD: 3x daily (2x DXB-SYD, 1x DXB-BKK-SYD)
BNE: 2x daily (1x DXB-BNE, 1x DXB-SIN-BNE)
PER: 2x daily (2x DXB-PER) - moving to 3x daily in March 2013
ADL: 1x daily from February 2012 (starting at 4x weekly in November 2012)

So by April - conveniently when this new deal is scheduled to start - EK will have 12x daily services + QF1/2 and QF9/10 moving from SIN to DXB en route to LHR there's your 14 daily services.
 
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EK413
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting planesarecool (Reply 27):

EK has been looking at ways of increasing frequency on the OZ route and with this move they will increase flights to 98 flights a week & access to QF FF... A win win for both carriers...

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
CXfirst
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting planesarecool (Reply 27):
What does Emirates have to gain from this? They already have a massive stake in the EU-OZ market, why the need to jump into bed with a loss-making competitor?

They gain QF frequent flyers.

They gain regional passengers, that would have booked QF to Europe, as they would have needed to connect with QF at one of the larger Australian cities anyway.

Also, they gain more flights into Australia (through QF departures), as they are limited to bilaterals.

-CXfirst
 
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qfvhoqa
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:58 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 64):
Another goal to remember. EK exists not only for profit but as a means of making DXB a transfer point rather than asia. Stealing a big bunch of PAX previously going through SIN or Hong Kong would please
Dubai's Administration. They may be willing to encourage QF growth to supplement EK's operations rather
than maximize EK's return on each of their australian flights. This is about to get interesting.

This is a very good point, and I would not be surprised if that was the main goal of the agreement (from the DXB side). EK exists to grow Dubai Inc.

Would it be possible for QF to set up a DXB cabin crew base, potentially lowering staff costs ever further?
 
777way
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:59 am

Wish this had happened when the 747 was flagship of QF fleet, and it would have been great to see another 747 opetator at DXB.
 
tayser
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:13 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 64):

yep very good / interesting read... I especially liked the back-hander to AC and LH about being anti-Gulf and thought of the select few people on here extolling the virtues of uber-protectionism  
 
toobz
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:24 am

Very impressive. Flown QF - thought they were great. Never flown EK but hear they are good too.
Does this change anything with AA?
 
fiscal
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:30 am

So, here are some questions based on PER

1. EK are supposed to offer FF seats from PER, but will they terminate in DXB? Who takes us onward to LHR for instance.
2. When will FF seats be available to choose online?
3. Will quantity of premium FF seats improve?
 
Lufthansa
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:31 am

I really think this is going to be VERY popular with QF PAX who have long complained about wanting to use
EK but not willing to forgo the Frequent flyer points.

I can see this creating a powerhouse... in one of the largest and most popular... but also overly competitive
areas of travel. Aust - Europe.

Okay so far i like the deal and I see potential...and I'm saying YES to it.
 
runzel
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:35 am

So from my home ports SYD & MEL to Europe & Middle East I can no longer see any reason at all to be involved with QF. The QF FF programme is not any great inducement. Predominantly a Y traveller, and having experienced EK's 10-abreast 777s, I'd not wish to repeat such accommodation. The airline you have when you are not having an airline? (If this post is redundant my apologies, I looked but could not find anything quite similar.)
 
Quokkas
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:01 am

Quoting fiscal (Reply 73):
So, here are some questions based on PER

1. You will be able to use FF points to any EK destination. Your tier status will be recognised for the entire trip, regardless of which airline (QF/EK) you fly with.
2. Subject to regulatory approval, from April 2013
3. Only in the sense that their are more available flights, but you will then be competing with EK Skywards members. I suspect the number of seats available on each flight will remain at levels similar to what they are now.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
Sydscott
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:06 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 74):
I really think this is going to be VERY popular with QF PAX who have long complained about wanting to use
EK but not willing to forgo the Frequent flyer points.

Quote from the CAPA article;

"Emirates CEO Tim Clark half-jokingly remarked the codeshare deal is made possible by “your love affair with a frequent flyer point”. Mr Clark expects to tap into Qantas' "formidable" position in the domestic market. He expects Emirates will introduce a fourth loyalty tier at the top end to match Qantas' programme."

This nicely summarises the benefit EK gets out of this.

Quoting tayser (Reply 71):
yep very good / interesting read... I especially liked the back-hander to AC and LH about being anti-Gulf and thought of the select few people on here extolling the virtues of uber-protectionism

I think a QF 789 BNE-DXB-FRA service is highly desirable if you're in Emirates shoes and are finding it difficult to get market access. As the CAPA article says, the Australian treaties have plenty of unused route authorities and capacity available and this agreement with QF effectively gives EK a backdoor into using all of them. Extremely smart move by them!
 
Lufthansa
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:20 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 77):
BNE-DXB-FRA

Not FRA...I'd say Berlin. And here is why.
Berlin is the largest city in Europe, with the Brandenburg /Berlin area home to about
6 million people. It has no service, and has been poorly served by Lufthansa for years
and since reunification Lufthansa has shown little interest in expanding, forcing people
through its other hubs instead. The City of Berlin and the state of Brandenburg have long
argued for direct long haul intercontinental service from their city but heading towards the East...this has
been largely blocked by Lufthansa's lobbying efforts. EK is restricted to flying to 5 cities in germany,
which it already does and therefore cannot add anymore and Etihad I believe Berlin is specificially excluded
from flying to for UAE carriers, hence the back door via their Air Berlin investment.

Now consider Qantas should be have to fly there using Australian bilaterials... and 5th freedom rights between
germany and DXB (or pretty much anywhere between australia and Germany) it could have this flight fed from the entire
EK network, from as far away as south africa to tokyo. I dont think they'd wanna push it too far just yet, they have
to get the basics up and running soon. But where ever else EK meets staunch resistance but Australia carriers have
ancient rights to fly there, largely unused... I can see the potential.
 
TWA85
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:25 am

What are the odds that IAG will join this alliance?
 
Quokkas
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:25 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 77):
effectively gives EK a backdoor into using all of them

This is something I do not understand. QF seem to be reducing flights on their own metal to Europe. How does this give greater access to to EK? EK can't start up flights to where QF go but EK doesn't if it lacks the necessary rights. A UAE aircraft is still a UAE aircraft even if it carries passengers with QF issued tickets. So this argument would only apply if QF were flying to a greater number of European destinations and receiving feed from EK.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
Flightsimboy
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:29 am

Quoting tayser (Reply 66):
PER: 2x daily (2x DXB-PER) - moving to 3x daily in March 2013
ADL: 1x daily from February 2012 (starting at 4x weekly in November 2012)

So by April - conveniently when this new deal is scheduled to start - EK will have 12x daily services + QF1/2 and QF9/10 moving from SIN to DXB en route to LHR there's your 14 daily services.

Thanks Tayser. So basically just the new daily from PER and ADL , while the two QF LHR services now go via DXB that are the changes in Apr 2013.
LAX772LR - "Answer to goofy question:" in response to my question about the B737-MAX8 being grounded. 48 hours later all B737-MAX8 grounded worldwide. Go figure!!
 
fiscal
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:31 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 76):
2. Subject to regulatory approval, from April 2013

I wonder how long the approval process will take?

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 76):
. Only in the sense that their are more available flights, but you will then be competing with EK Skywards members. I suspect the number of seats available on each flight will remain at levels similar to what they are now.

There are more J seats on the 777 than the QF A330's, so maybe that is of benefit.

I also note that the 777's still have sloping beds? How comfortable are they I wonder for sleeping?
 
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EK413
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:32 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 80):

Gives EK access to QFs frequent flyers on international and domestic sectors... Goes hand in hand with both carriers with QF passengers now able to access Europe via EKs network with 1 stop via DXB...

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
tayser
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:34 am

Quoting runzel (Reply 75):
So from my home ports SYD & MEL to Europe & Middle East I can no longer see any reason at all to be involved with QF. The QF FF programme is not any great inducement. Predominantly a Y traveller, and having experienced EK's 10-abreast 777s, I'd not wish to repeat such accommodation. The airline you have when you are not having an airline? (If this post is redundant my apologies, I looked but could not find anything quite similar.)

In this instance, you'd book yourself on QF legs MEL/SYD to DXB then transfer to EK to wherever you're going if it's not LHR - DXB - Europe sectors are bascially 1/2 the length of MEL/SYD-DXB sectors making it far more palatable to be flying in their 77Ws for only one third the time (7 out of 33 are 380 destos, and there are a lot of 333 destinations) so the chances of going on their 77Ws are not exactly that high in the first place.

As someone who does not have much love for QF's international route network, I have to say I am 110% suitably impressed with this setup and loving the fact they're breaking their conservative mould theyve been stuck in since privatisation.

Icing on the cake will be MEL/BNE-DFW with 789s when they get them.
 
Quokkas
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:53 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 83):
Gives EK access to QFs frequent flyers

I appreciate that part of things but was referring to access to rights that QF has and EK doesn't - e.g. EK can't fly to Berlin (as it already flies to the 4 maximum permitted destinations) so no amount of partnershipping with QF will give them that access unless QF were to fly there. Given QF is cancelling its FRA flights and not introducing any other European destinations, how does this help EK overcome barriers imposed by ASAs?
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
monteycarlos
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:20 am

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 79):
What are the odds that IAG will join this alliance?

Low.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
Lufthansa
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:23 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 85):
so no amount of partnershipping with QF will give them that access unless QF were to fly there. Given QF is cancelling its FRA flights and not introducing any other European destinations, how does this help EK overcome barriers imposed by ASAs?

Very easy. They don't even need to codeshare. All EK needs to do is onsell a QF operated flight at favorable prices, which can be part of a 'behind the sceens' arrangement if the german govenment did not allow EK to stick its tag on the QF flights. The fact that its passengers and QF's passengers will be integrated via the FF program will not put either at a disadvantage. EK will be getting access to those seats at a better rate than anybody else, and QF will be looked after on other flights in exchange...on the surface, it looks like a passenger then bought an EK ticket from their origin to Dubai, and then a Qantas ticket from Dubai to say, Berlin. So to use the earlier example, QF could run a flight BNE/PER - DXB- Berlin on a single flight number...no different to they do FRA now from singapore. Remember there is nothing, under fifth freedoms to stop a pax currently buying SIN-FRA. The problem is...SIA, being a competitor isn't going to feed that flight from say Hong Kong or Kuala Lumpur. it would direct them onto its own flights...This would not be the case with Emirates.
 
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qfvhoqa
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:28 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 85):

I appreciate that part of things but was referring to access to rights that QF has and EK doesn't - e.g. EK can't fly to Berlin (as it already flies to the 4 maximum permitted destinations) so no amount of partnershipping with QF will give them that access unless QF were to fly there. Given QF is cancelling its FRA flights and not introducing any other European destinations, how does this help EK overcome barriers imposed by ASAs?

The possibility is that QF will be able to fly its own metal via DXB to cities that EK cannot, such as BER. This would allow QF to capture feed from EK to make it viable as opposed to relying on its own feed from Australia.
I doubt QF will base any aircraft in DXB, but once they receive 789, a through flight from BNE could end up in BER for example. Or maybe an A332 from PER?

EDIT: Lufthansa beat me to it

[Edited 2012-09-05 23:31:09]
 
richcandy
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:42 am

Hi

A few years ago QF used to fly from LHR to SYD/MEL via HKG/BKK/SIN, so that gave passengers 3 easy stop over choices (if we just look at pure QF). QF also must of picked up some passengers who just wanted to fly HKG/BKK/SIN to LHR and v.v.

Now its going to be just via DXB, passengers traveling from the UK to Australia will I am sure want to stop at DXB. However LON-DXB is fairly short long haul and DXB is a big short break destination from the UK so maybe not as popular as the far east. Also there are lots of flights from DXB-LHR, so are QF going to have issues filling seats on that sector?

If you are a pure point to point traveller then of course it makes very little difference where QF from LHR-SYD stop to pick up fuel, be it SIN or DXB. Maybe thats the passengers they are looking for?

This new arrangement is much better for passengers wanting to travel from lots of cities in Europe to SYD or v.v. on QF. Rather than routing via LHR and then a stop at SIN you now have a one stop option via DXB, but then you always did with EK.

Alex
 
pilotdude09
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:43 am

Quoting tayser (Reply 66):
PER: 2x daily (2x DXB-PER) - moving to 3x daily in March 2013

Around the time the A380 gate will be ready in Perth which Emirates has told Westralia Airport Corp to hurry the hell up with.

For Perth it seems we will loose 2x QF flights and an option via SIN to London/Frankfurt. But we could potentially gain another daily service with Emirates or have QF operate a PER-DXB. Guess we will have to wait and see.

One good thing is this means EK might operate the A380 a couple times a day instead of the expected once daily next year. This is good for Perth and customers - A380 all the way through instead of carriers "regional" product.

Exciting times ahead.
Qantas, Still calling Australia Home.........
 
kiwiandrew

RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:45 am

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 88):
The possibility is that QF will be able to fly its own metal via DXB to cities that EK cannot, such as BER. This would allow QF to capture feed from EK to make it viable as opposed to relying on its own feed from Australia.

Of course if QF's rights into Germany specify that a certain minimum percentage of pax carried must be Australian originating this would limit the number of pax who could be carried DXB-BER on QF metal having originated from other EK destinations feeding into DXB. (I have no idea whether there is such a restriction, but it would not be an unusual requirement in a bilateral).
 
ben175
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:48 am

Quoting pilotdude09 (Reply 90):
For Perth it seems we will loose 2x QF flights and an option via SIN to London/Frankfurt. But we could potentially gain another daily service with Emirates or have QF operate a PER-DXB. Guess we will have to wait and see.

I seriously doubt QF will axe both daily PER-SIN services, even without the European connections this leg is a huge market. I wonder what the re-timed schedule will look like though? Anyone have any ideas?
 
Lufthansa
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:57 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 91):
I have no idea whether there is such a restriction, but it would not be an unusual requirement in a bilatera

I haven't heard anything to that effect and my guess would be, based on the old Lufthansa routes to Sydney, probably
not too many restrictions because back in the day LH had quite a few stops with various routings...more than just needed for fuel and carried a lot of intra asia traffic on the way too and from Sydney.

See this one is hard for Lufthansa to protest. If they, for example want to prevent EK sticking their tags on QF flights, then the Australian government can do it to LH with thai and SIA flights. And Lufthansa would then lose more connections to more cities than EK would gain by QF going to Berlin. Lufthansa would also then be forced to enter into a similar merely onselling of SQ and TG tickets for the final leg... (which i might add LH is selling more tickets into and out of Australia than it ever has in history and more than when it flew here) Two carriers who would have no incentive to co operate much, prefering to fill their own flights. There is a little bit of genius in this idea on EK's part.
 
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EK413
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:07 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 85):
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 87):
Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 88):

You guys beat me to it...

Even though QF has dropped the much speculated FRA route I believe QF will be returning to Germany utilizing the B787 in 2016 which by then QF International would've returned to profitability...

Personally I am very happy with today's news and I am sure there are more changes ahead at both QF and EK...

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
Sydscott
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:15 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 78):
Not FRA...I'd say Berlin. And here is why.

I'd disagree, but will say that QF will fly where EK can't get rights to go. If the joint service gets more benefit our of BER that's where the service will go. If the joint business gets more business out of FRA, that's where the service will go. Considering FRA is a business oriented market, and BER is still very much a lower yielding one in comparison I'm not as sure as you are that it warrants service.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 80):
QF seem to be reducing flights on their own metal to Europe. How does this give greater access to to EK?

Because with a joint business arrangement QF can start a service, say BNE-DXB-BER, using Australian Air rights with a 789 and receive EK traffic to fill up the plane. It means EK can expand frequency and presence using its partner if it cannot obtain more traffic rights to expand.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 80):
So this argument would only apply if QF were flying to a greater number of European destinations and receiving feed from EK.

Correct. Given the protectionism in Germany and the general antipathy towards granting EK more rights, I'd say QF will be back in Germany at some point in the medium term to add the frequencies EK can't. Again, this is a perfect way for the joint business to use all of those 789 options.

Quoting pilotdude09 (Reply 90):
For Perth it seems we will loose 2x QF flights and an option via SIN to London/Frankfurt. But we could potentially gain another daily service with Emirates or have QF operate a PER-DXB. Guess we will have to wait and see.

I'd say Perth will retain probably a daily flight into Singapore with probably an earlier arrival time. That will allow better onwards connectivity onto the 3K and Partner networks along with better servicing business O&D.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 93):
If they, for example want to prevent EK sticking their tags on QF flights, then the Australian government can do it to LH with thai and SIA flights.

Exactly. Long term it's a very shrewd move by Tim Clark!
 
Quokkas
Posts: 1327
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:51 pm

RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:20 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 87):
All EK needs to do is onsell a QF operated flight at favorable prices

But there is the rub. QF won't be operating any flights to Germany or elsewhere in Europe other than 2x daily LHR.

OK, at a later date they may revise that and reintroduce them. The agreement covers a ten year period but in the short term it appears to me that the "back door" isn't even unlocked, let alone open. This leaves EK in the present position where it is able to buy seats from AB or LH if passengers wish to go to Berlin.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
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NZ107
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:23 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 95):
Again, this is a perfect way for the joint business to use all of those 789 options.

Yet they just threw away the early orders a couple of weeks ago and now have to wait longer! I love this Qantas mis-management and short-sightedness. It's another step towards their downfall.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
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EK413
Posts: 5652
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:33 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 97):

& what's stopping EK from leasing QF a few B77Ws in the meantime enabling QF to reintroduce routes which have been dropped while providing EK the capacity they have requested however been blocked from doing so...???

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
Sydscott
Posts: 3513
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:50 am

RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:34 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 97):
Yet they just threw away the early orders a couple of weeks ago and now have to wait longer!

The alliance won't be in place until April next year, the turn-around plan for QF International isn't due to start delivering results until 2014. So assuming everything gets approved and the turn-around is successful, 2014 is the perfect time to start firming up options for some long term fleet planning for the joint business. And if worse comes to worse, how many 77W's does EK have on order again?

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 97):
I love this Qantas mis-management and short-sightedness. It's another step towards their downfall.

QF have just inked an agreement with probably the most successful International airline of the last 20 years which, by analysts estimates, should benefit them by $80 to $90 million a year. This is a long term deal and I'll bet every last dollar I have that EK also had a hand in QF cancelling the 789 order last week. Why spend the money when your new Partner has all the equipment you could possibly need? If anything this goes back to QF International needing more A330's for Asian services. And low and behold they announce they're spending $20 million to keep 16 763's in service while getting 11 A332's from JQ starting in 3rd quarter next year, just after the alliance starts. Co-incidence? There was far more to last weeks announcements than we knew and it makes alot more sense now in relation to QF's long term strategy. This is a briliant play by Alan Joyce, gazzumps Virgin and its alliances and cements QF's place beside a mega carrier for a decade. If that's not far sighted managed with an eye on a prize, I don't know what is.

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