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LH422
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:45 am

So sad that we'll no longer be seeing the QF 747 parked south of the runways at FRA every day. That plane made FRA a truly global airport in my eyes. I guess all we'll be seeing in the future is the occasional A380 in for maintenance.
 
mutu
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:48 am

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 79):
What are the odds that IAG will join this alliance?

Virtually zero

An EK tie up serves little benefit for BA' network. If MAS does end up stabilising its finances and joining Oneworld then BA has a partner via asia to replace QF only via KUL. It could probably leave the flying onto OZ to MAS exclusively by introducing a KUL terminator, keeping 2x daily SIN terminators.

QR adds options to BA on the Kanagaroo route but frankly I suspect the Brits are more inclined to travel to Oz via HKG SIN KUL BKK

And if the JSA is a loss maker then terminating it benefits BAs bottom line too.
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:58 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Suppose a big finger to oneworld and BA.


However I commend Qantas for being willing to shake things up.

Also kudos for EK landing this significant venture under the nose OW and BA.

Not true at all.

First of all, IAG was told by Qantas that these discussions were happening before they were made public.

I think the IAG statement was quite honest in saying the world has changed and it's been clear for a while that the JSA no longer really works for either airline. Australia is not an important market for IAG or BA. It doesn't even feature in IAG strategy.
 
seansasLCY
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:58 am

Quoting mutu (Reply 101):
An EK tie up serves little benefit for BA' network.

I disagree, it would bring in a large number of destinations. Guangzhou, Osaka, Manila, Ho Chi Minh, Kuala Lumpur, Phuket, New Zealand.

It would work the same as the Qantas deal just in the other direction. I don't see it happening but would be pleased if it did.
 
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allrite
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:59 am

I wonder what options Qantas might provide (eg via ff bookings on their website) for routings to Europe via Asia with thier OW partners. They may not be optimal for business travellers, but I personally would rather have stopovers in HK, Tokyo, Singapore etc than Dubai. It would be nice to earn FF points as well.
I like artificial banana essence!
 
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NZ107
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:01 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 99):
The alliance won't be in place until April next year, the turn-around plan for QF International isn't due to start delivering results until 2014. So assuming everything gets approved and the turn-around is successful, 2014 is the perfect time to start firming up options for some long term fleet planning for the joint business.

The 789s would have been ripe for delivery right at that time - 2014. NZ won't be getting theirs until mid-late 2013 and that'll be the first batch too - still a wait for the rest to clear before QF were to get theirs.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 99):
And if worse comes to worse, how many 77W's does EK have on order again?

But who's to say they're willing to 'give' them to QF and sacrifice their own growth?


It just seems like Qantas is continuing this path to diminishing from what they used to be. When you sign an agreement with the largest and most successful of everything, the 'other company' usually shrivels up and gets swallowed by the other. We'll see who benefits the most in the end.


A couple of new slogans for them: Emirates - The Spirit of Australia.. And Hello Tomorrow. Goodbye Qantas.

Quoting LH422 (Reply 100):
That plane made FRA a truly global airport in my eyes.

I hope that NZ will return one day...
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
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mariner
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:30 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 99):
This is a briliant play by Alan Joyce, gazzumps Virgin and its alliances and cements QF's place beside a mega carrier for a decade. If that's not far sighted managed with an eye on a prize, I don't know what is.

I agree with that. As I said in the other thread, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

I really don't understand the complaints from a few that Qantas is becoming a virtual airline or that it is "diminished" - Europe, the Middle East and much of Africa is now taken care of, and Qantas can turn its attention to the regions that have potential for growth.

This article calls it an historic shift, and I agree with that:

http://australianaviation.com.au/2012/09/if-you-cant-beat-em-join-em/

"Today’s announcement and signing of the historic alliance agreement between Qantas and Emirates represents a seismic shift in the dynamics of the Australian airline market, both from the customer and the airline business perspectives."

It is historic because it is a turn of the head, by Qantas, reflecting the reality of Australia's geography. The article goes on to look at the future:

"Suddenly Qantas seems to have stopped the rot in its international network, and the prospect of a Emirates tie-up to cover Europe, and optimised Asian network, a muscled up (thanks to Emirates again) trans-Tasman offering, and a robust Americas network hubbing through LAX, DFW and Santiago sounds a viable proposition for the competitive market that Qantas finds itself in."

I was intrigued by the emphasis placed on DFW - I wonder if there are any plans there - and, as a side note, I think it places a pressure on Air New Zealand to grasp the nettle and form some meaningful relationships, other than the bland Star Alliance.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Andrensn
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:55 am

Weird question for my end of year trip next year:
Would this JV allow me to go WLG-SYD (QF) SYD-SIN (QF) SIN-CMB (EK) on one ticket?
Thanks
Andrensn
 
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NZ107
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:56 am

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 103):
I disagree, it would bring in a large number of destinations. Guangzhou, Osaka, Manila, Ho Chi Minh, Kuala Lumpur, Phuket, New Zealand.

These can (nearly) all be served with current OW partners. CX and JL fly to KIX, CX is ideal for MNL, SGN can be done by both CX and MH, MH can do KUL and HKT and both can serve AKL. CAN just won't be direct though (KA serve it I think) if they thought it deserved it, they'd fly it themselves. CZ is only just starting flights between LHR and CAN though.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
mutu
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:10 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 108):
These can (nearly) all be served with current OW partners. CX and JL fly to KIX, CX is ideal for MNL, SGN can be done by both CX and MH, MH can do KUL and HKT and both can serve AKL. CAN just won't be direct though (KA serve it I think) if they thought it deserved it, they'd fly it themselves. CZ is only just starting flights between LHR and CAN though.

Indeed. BA have stated they are looking at ne Asian routes and new "partner arrangements" to expand Asian network. They are not going to stand still and they are not going to route via DXB to Asia! The quick route is via HEL!!
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:23 am

Interesting move. Thats a lot of capacity into DXB from Australia.

Didn't think they would give up on SIN-Europe completely, but hey, it was time for a shake up.

The big question with all of this, where does MH fit into any of these plans? QF sponsored their OW entry but have seemingly moved away from any further dealings after their talks broke down re RedQ.

I would agree with a couple of posts that BA may well say bye, bye to SYD.
 
koruman
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 9:40 am

On reflection, there is scope within this for Qantas to really stitch up some secondary markets with their 788 fleet.

Emirates already serve destinations like Glasgow, Newcastle (UK), Dublin, Lyon, Dusseldorf and Hamburg, and presumably get most of the eastbound long-haul traffic from those destinations.

But Qantas could do the same thing at this end by flying 788s with approximately 220 seats from secondary airports such as Cairns, Gold Coast and Newcastle into the DXB hub. They would wipe out long-haul demand to/from those cities on any other carrier.

And 220 seats is basically the economy capacity of a Jetstar A320 plus 25 Premium Economy seats plus 15 Business Class seats.

[Edited 2012-09-06 03:15:55]
 
qf002
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:00 am

I'm very glad to see this rumour come true! This should be an interesting partnership to observe and discuss...

To all those questioning what QF brings to the table -- they bring 84% of Australias corporate contracts. That's a big deal for EK -- their J offering today attracts a similar market to W on QF, and subsequently much lower fares. IMO the biggest test of the success of this relationship from EK's perspective is an increase in premium fares, yield and profitability...

And of course QF stands to gain a lot. It's excellent that they have actually committed to this new relationship, rather than having a flimsy codeshare (a la AF to CDG, CX to FCO etc). They are taking a risk, but I think it's one that will pay off.

Knowing that they will be redirecting their flights through DXB quells many of my comcerns about EK as their partner (as opposed to QR, for example). I was concerned that they might drop all their flights in place of codeshares, but I can see them playing an important role with EK to Europe now...

Quoting monteycarlos (Reply 86):

* Extremely low. I'd say close to nil, though IAG passengers might be able to route to SYD/MEL via DXB on a QF codeshare. They wouldn't be able to access EK services though.

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 103):

QF and EK only really compete in one market -- Australia to Europe. Sure there will be some overlap to a couple of cities in SE Asia/Middle East, but the competition is pretty focused.

BA and EK compete in a dozen different markets -- Asia to the Americas, Europe to Africa, Europe to Asia, Europe to Australia, the local markets to DXB etc. It's much harder for companies at compete in so many different areas to work together in one.

It's like suggesting a BA/LH parternship, or a BA/AF partnership. Too much overlap.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 105):
It just seems like Qantas is continuing this path to diminishing from what they used to be. When you sign an agreement with the largest and most successful of everything, the 'other company' usually shrivels up and gets swallowed by the other. We'll see who benefits the most in the end.

On the flip side, EK has just signed with the largest and most successful airline in Australia. You have to maintain some perspective and remember that this is one small part of a very big company -- the two companies as a whole are very similarly sized in terms of revenue...

Quoting Andrensn (Reply 107):
The big question with all of this, where does MH fit into any of these plans? QF sponsored their OW entry but have seemingly moved away from any further dealings after their talks broke down re RedQ.


MH will be a regional partner -- same as the relationship with JL (or what the relationship with CX could have been). If QF International starts making money again, and they start some slightly more aggressive expansion in Asia, then we could easily see QF flying to KUL to pass passengers off to China, India etc.
 
tim
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:03 am

In terms of the double daily PER-SIN-PER services industry rumour looks like one will be canned and they will leave a retimed existing daily 333 flight. Something like PER-SIN 0900/1400 then SIN-PER 1500/2000. PER-HKG QF67/68 to survive the axe.

Perth Airport doing all they can to get these A380 gates built. EK are waiting for them the day they are done!
 
ozglobal
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:13 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 34):
uoting planesarecool (Reply 27):
What does Emirates have to gain from this? They already have a massive stake in the EU-OZ market, why the need to jump into bed with a loss-making competitor?

Removing a competitor means higher prices. It's basically a price fixing scheme. OZ pax will get screwed. It's not as if any more options are actually opened to them, only funneled through a different portal, connecting to a different airline...

Unfortunately, this looks like the best explaination of the move: QF cuts off a hemoraging limb, but retains a share of revenues from a more sustainable model. EK loses its main Kangaroo route competitor. They both thereby effectively colude to fix prices for better margins. Loser: Kangaroo route customers.

I'm seriously looking at switching FF membership to CX.

[Edited 2012-09-06 03:14:02]
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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NZ107
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:21 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 112):
EK has just signed with the largest and most successful airline in Australia.

Yeah, well what choice did they have?

Quoting qf002 (Reply 112):
the two companies as a whole are very similarly sized in terms of revenue...

EBITDA(R) is where it's at - Revenue alone is irrelevant. Take it down to the EBITDA(R) and you'll see a substantial gulf between the companies. Same with the book value - EK is worth around 3x as much.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:42 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 114):
Unfortunately, this looks like the best explaination of the move: QF cuts off a hemoraging limb, but retains a share of revenues from a more sustainable model. EK loses its main Kangaroo route competitor. They both thereby effectively colude to fix prices for better margins. Loser: Kangaroo route customers.

I'm seriously looking at switching FF membership to CX

I wouldn't bet on it. There are still something like 16 other carriers offering this one stop, and China Southern with massive growth plans in the market coming online soon. Yes, not all of them are 'premium' brands but in the end supply and demand are a key component in pricing and when supply increases elsewhere but demand remains similar then the ability to raise ones prices...no matter how attractive the product... become harder. if you need evidence look at the impact of Delta's entry into the Sydney route... particularly business class pricing upfront.

China southern chases prices on the bottom end of the market, putting pricing pressure on everyone and QF/EK steals some of the upper end of it back from Cathay and SIA heading north. if QF had any real pricing power in that market it wouldn't be racking up losses
 
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huaiwei
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:21 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 116):
QF/EK steals some of the upper end of it back from Cathay and SIA heading north.

And how will that actually happen?

From a Singaporean's perspective, the main negative development from this news is that we will no longer see QF A380s here, and most likely also B744s. It also means less choices on LHR/FRA-Singapore, but prices are unlikely to change much since competition is still intense. QF will likely loose its position as the second biggest carrier in SIN in terms of ASK, but the overall dent on SIN is not significant, given the rapid rise in regional and LCC markets.

But there are some benefits. SQ sees less direct competition on its European markets, but prices may actually go down lower to grab market share amongst those not willing to fly via QF/EK. QF's timings may be better optimised into SIN for the Singapore-Australia market, which gives us more options down under and greater competition for SQ, again hopefully pushing down prices which are ridiculously high at times.

It remains to be seen what QF's plans will be here in SIN, but overall, I still feel a tinge of sadness that another airline is "surrendering" to ME carriers. I fear this sets a trend of of less diversity in the aviation world.
It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
 
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HELyes
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:32 am

Quoting tayser (Thread starter):
Indeed. BA have stated they are looking at ne Asian routes and new "partner arrangements" to expand Asian network. They are not going to stand still and they are not going to route via DXB to Asia! The quick route is via HEL!!

Yes, talking about routes from UK to China, Japan, Korea the fastest routes usually go via HEL. Naturally it's a different situation flying from UK to SE Asia.
 
ADDICT4QF
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:38 am

Can someone clarify my understanding- QF is building a new First Lounge in Singapore, but as the A380s are not going to be used to SIN anymore, there will actually be no First to SIN from SYD or MEL???

Also a very smart way for EK to increase its capacity to cities where it is reaching its limits; codeshare on another carrier to a city passing through DXB, i.e. QF.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:45 am

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 117):
And how will that actually happen?

In Cathay's case, very easy because I significant amount of its Euro PAX connecting from Australia pick it
purely as a oneworld option that only invovles one stop to Major centers.

In SIA's case, One stop obviously plays a major role QF was having a hard time competing with, but SIA offered
not much loyalty rewards to Australian travelers until recently since the Ansett saga. So SIA won on timings, frequency and of course quality of product which swayed enough travelers in that market to forgo QF's loyalty program. Of course SIA had the advantage of being able to mix Asian/India bound traffic as well as european passengers on its Australian flights helping sustain frequency, but in reality, the late departure from Changi offered the most in terms of european destinations, with a similar timing to a QF departure. SIA's hub will still have power to key cities, but for the likes of Paris, Frankfurt and Rome QF just gave you an option they previously weren't competing for with a high level of Quality. And full rewards. That will have some impact. Ex Australia plenty of people will bypass Changi if QF gives them an incentive to do so. It's a very competitive alternative, underwritten by the largest frequent flyer program in Australia. SIA will still obvously win some, and some new ones thanks to Virgin, plus its always high quality product, but for years there have been plenty of Australian PAX selecting SIA when they'd rather actually trade off a slightly lower level of service in exchange for greater status and loyalty rewards headed to southern europe because Qantas didn't really offer them anything that remotely seemed to make sense.
 
bill142
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:47 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 105):
It just seems like Qantas is continuing this path to diminishing from what they used to be. When you sign an agreement with the largest and most successful of everything, the 'other company' usually shrivels up and gets swallowed by the other. We'll see who benefits the most in the end.

Yet when Virgin Australia did a similar thing it was applauded as Borghetti brilliance. Interesting.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:55 am

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 121):
Yet when Virgin Australia did a similar thing it was applauded as Borghetti brilliance. Interesting.

Borghetti has just been Guzzumped...and in a major major way.

A combined QF/EK operation, early next year should see about 5000 seats a day to DXB.
A combined VA/EY operation see a mere 800 seats a day. Not even close.
Ditto for the destinations on offer...not even half.
And then look at the frequency....
And after that we have the great appeal of DXB as a stopover destination.
 
qf002
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:59 am

Quoting ADDICT4QF (Reply 119):

The First Lounges aren't all about First passegners. I'd be willing to wager that the vast majority of visitors are actually status frequent flyers (for example, QF only offers about 60 (sometimes 75) F seats each day out of SYD for a 220 seat lounge). SIN and HKG are both hard cities for QF because the local competition is so strong (ie SQ and CX), so it's essential that they have strong ground offerings for those passegners that make the route profitable.

There's also Oneworld to consider, especially at SIN where QF has the only OW F lounge...
 
r2rho
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:09 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 106):
if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Indeed. QF needed this deal more than EK, who could have also just waited for QF to bleed to death on the Kangaroo route. The Middle East is the new way to go for EU-Aus, QF has realized it and has decided to make the best possible deal out of it rather than maintaning unsustainable Europe Kangaroo routes.
Having now solved the Europe problem, QF has to concentrate on gaining terrain in Asia.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Suppose a big finger to oneworld

Effectively, the only reason for QF to remain in OW would be linking up with AA network from the US West coast. QF has become completely irrelevant to IAG, and is a thorn in the eye for CX. I would not be surprised if QF leave OW at some point (but maintaining an alliance with AA for US destinations).

Quoting aussie747 (Reply 17):
how will this benefit QF customers from BNE,ADL and PER. QF will still not fly to DXB from these cities

No, but EK will do so with a QF code on the flights.

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 88):
The possibility is that QF will be able to fly its own metal via DXB to cities that EK cannot, such as BER.

Don't read too much into this. Nowhere do I see that QF would set up onward operations out of DXB, let alon open a back door to EK bilateral restrictions. The way I read it, QF will fly some Aus-DXB routes, but will not operate anything West or North of DXB.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 96):
QF won't be operating any flights to Germany or elsewhere in Europe other than 2x daily LHR.

   That is also the way I read it.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 114):
the best explaination of the move: QF cuts off a hemoraging limb, but retains a share of revenues from a more sustainable model. EK loses its main Kangaroo route competitor. They both thereby effectively colude to fix prices for better margins. Loser: Kangaroo route customers.
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 34):
Removing a competitor means higher prices. It's basically a price fixing scheme. OZ pax will get screwed. It's not as if any more options are actually opened to them, only funneled through a different portal, connecting to a different airline...

   Unfortunately, I fear you are both completely right in your interpretation.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:11 pm

My 5c worth, and I'm sure its been said before up thread somewhere, is that this is a f**k you very much from Qantas to any Australian who doesn't happen to live in either Sydney or Melbourne and wants to fly to Europe. How does that sit with the Qantas sale act?

Another 2c, Qantas also now makes us (you not me) fly 10 across in a 777 so its basically downgrading its services.

[Edited 2012-09-06 05:59:31]
BV
 
qf002
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:22 pm

Another thought -- could we see new QF/EK lounges at LHR? The existing EK First Lounge looks like it is nowhere near as good as QF's F Lounges...
 
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huaiwei
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:31 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 120):
In Cathay's case, very easy because I significant amount of its Euro PAX connecting from Australia pick it
purely as a oneworld option that only invovles one stop to Major centers.

So OneWorld loyalists can still fly CX for the entire journey if they wish to transit via HKG, couldn't they? I still do not see much of an impact?

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 120):

In SIA's case, One stop obviously plays a major role QF was having a hard time competing with, but SIA offered
not much loyalty rewards to Australian travelers until recently since the Ansett saga. So SIA won on timings, frequency and of course quality of product which swayed enough travelers in that market to forgo QF's loyalty program. Of course SIA had the advantage of being able to mix Asian/India bound traffic as well as european passengers on its Australian flights helping sustain frequency, but in reality, the late departure from Changi offered the most in terms of european destinations, with a similar timing to a QF departure. SIA's hub will still have power to key cities, but for the likes of Paris, Frankfurt and Rome QF just gave you an option they previously weren't competing for with a high level of Quality. And full rewards. That will have some impact. Ex Australia plenty of people will bypass Changi if QF gives them an incentive to do so. It's a very competitive alternative, underwritten by the largest frequent flyer program in Australia. SIA will still obvously win some, and some new ones thanks to Virgin, plus its always high quality product, but for years there have been plenty of Australian PAX selecting SIA when they'd rather actually trade off a slightly lower level of service in exchange for greater status and loyalty rewards headed to southern europe because Qantas didn't really offer them anything that remotely seemed to make sense.

Precisely what incentive can QF offer to Australian passengers to lure them away from SIN, whether the flight transits at SIN or DXB? Those already flying via SQ will keep flying it, unless the DXB transit somehow offers much lower fares?

The only potential loss I can think of are passengers wanted to fly to smaller European cities served only by EK, but won't these passengers already be flying via EK rather than via SQ or QF anyway?

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 121):
Yet when Virgin Australia did a similar thing it was applauded as Borghetti brilliance. Interesting.

The difference is that Virgin is a smaller player expanding its network via a partnership, while QF is a bigger player shrinking its network via a partnership.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 124):
Don't read too much into this. Nowhere do I see that QF would set up onward operations out of DXB, let alon open a back door to EK bilateral restrictions. The way I read it, QF will fly some Aus-DXB routes, but will not operate anything West or North of DXB.

QF did point this out, didn't they? They said they are not really retreating from Europe, but they will build on their DXB "hub" and plan to launch flights from there? EK has also said they want to use this to overcome ASA restrictions and codeshare on QF's flights to destinations it cannot serve. QF, can, for example, actually fly into Germany via DXB...unless Germany responds by restricting EK from codesharing with others into its market!
It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
 
emirates202
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:34 pm

I just hope I won't end up on a QF flight if I'm flying to SYD. I'm sure it will be a random flight number, like 9124 and say that it's a code share with QF? Is it going to say its nt operated by EK so we know what we're flying?
Fly Emirates, Hello Tomorrow
 
VH-BZF
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:39 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 19):
If anything this gives Etihad and Virgin a bloody nose because the combined VA/SQ and Etihad network between Australia and Europe is vastly inferior to EK's. When VA said "Game On" don't think this is what they had in mind!

Good Call


  

QF will definitely improve their offering into Asia from April 2013 with flights to both HKG and SIN allowing much better connections. Always thought their late night departures to HKG were a much better idea, timed better to allow same day connections into China, North Asia or to do a full day of business in HKG.

BZF
Ansett Australia - (was) One of the worlds great airlines!
 
6thfreedom
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:41 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 122):

Borghetti has just been Guzzumped...and in a major major way.

A combined QF/EK operation, early next year should see about 5000 seats a day to DXB.
A combined VA/EY operation see a mere 800 seats a day. Not even close.
Ditto for the destinations on offer...not even half.
And then look at the frequency....
And after that we have the great appeal of DXB as a stopover destination.

I wonder how long it will take for the North QLD, Cairns and Darwin population, both big markets for UK and Germany to realise that the EK/QF codeshare does nothing to improve their access? now all these markets become 2 or 3 stop!
 
Nimish
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:43 pm

I presume a one-world FFP (say AY) would not earn miles/status on the EK operated legs flying say FRA-DXB-SYD (even if it were on a QF ticket and code share)?
Incredible India!
 
CXfirst
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:19 pm

Quoting qf002 (Reply 126):

Another thought -- could we see new QF/EK lounges at LHR? The existing EK First Lounge looks like it is nowhere near as good as QF's F Lounges...

Wouldn't surprise me. QF currently use BA lounge at LHR. So, wouldn't be surprised to see them leave for EK, who might even create a larger lounge, or even co-brand it.

-CXfirst
 
Quokkas
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:24 pm

Quoting emirates202 (Reply 128):
I just hope I won't end up on a QF flight if I'm flying to SYD.

Assuming you use EK's booking engine any codeshare flight will be clearly indicated. The flight number will appear as a four digit number with the first digit being other than 0 and under the timings it will state operated by Qantas. You will then have the option of selecting that flight or another one.

I also understand that the law in the US requires that any flight operated by an airline other than the one who is selling the ticket must be clearly indicated as such, so if you use a different online travel agent it should still appear as a codeshare flight.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
ElPistolero
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:59 pm

This type of consolidation was bound to occur sooner or later, given the varying cost bases around the world. To the ubernationalists, I would argue that it makes complete sense to leverage a partners lower cost bases to ones advantage. The simple fact is that prices do matter and QF would always carry the burden of the higher cost of operating in Oz vis-a-vis Singapore or the UAE or, increasingly, China.

I don't think it will have a significant impact on prices, though i see many here are convinced it will. Why do i think so? Because competition isnt going away. Two players have consolidated, but VA/EY, TG, SQ, CX, QR etc, not to mention China Southetn (CZ?) are still present - even expanding. I really doubt it's bad for consumers as it stands. If you think the situation in Australia is bad, spare a thought for Canada. Our entire TATL market is defined by these types of alliances (AC/LH/UA/OS/LX v AF/KL/DL v BA/AA). The prices for 10 airlines are set in 3 offices (and it show). At least SQ, CX, TG, CZ are independent actors in this regard.

What I will say is that the nature of competition will be healthier, financially, for QF, which was otherwise close to, if not at, the wrong end of the profit/loss spectrum.

Historic? Possibly. Certainly think its a game changer.

Quoting huaiwei (Reply 117):

Were you tinged with sadness when LH, OS etc 'surrendered' to SQ in the 2000s? Nor was SQ doing any favors for QF. Bit rich to feel sad about it given SQ's own dent on QF, especially when it's simply because EK's out-SQ'ed SQ in some ways. Same business model. Same 'victims'. Questionable righteousness. Suffice it to say I think it's a terrific move by QF.
 
tayser
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:01 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 91):
I have no idea whether there is such a restriction, but it would not be an unusual requirement in a bilateral

The original AU-DE treaty is from 1959(!) - with MoUs in the mid and late 90s which presumably modernised the treat to allow the SYD-SIN-FRA flights.

Australia needs an EU-wide treaty to override all the specific Euro country treaties it has at present (i.e the horse-dung 3x weekly frequency treaty into France that eventually killed the QF flights to CDG 10+ years ago).

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 114):
Unfortunately, this looks like the best explaination of the move: QF cuts off a hemoraging limb, but retains a share of revenues from a more sustainable model. EK loses its main Kangaroo route competitor. They both thereby effectively colude to fix prices for better margins. Loser: Kangaroo route customers.

I dare say competition and prices pan-Asia and Middle East will not rise by all that much. Qantas, hilariously, always charged a premium to fly on their own planes all the way to LHR compared to SQ/CX/MH/TG/EK/EY - one thing to keep in mind, any carrier which has a hub between SIN and HKG now actually has a slight marketing edge - they're still going to be offer the fastest route to Europe over QF/EK (MEL-DXB-LHR is about 150-200nm longer than MEL-SIN-LHR/MEL-HKG-LHR), I doubt it would have much effect given the QFF base, but one's thing for sure this tie up does not diminish competition to the point where the ACCC would slap everyone around.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 124):
The way I read it, QF will fly some Aus-DXB routes, but will not operate anything West or North of DXB.

Errr... QF will fly North West of DXB to LHR.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 125):

My 5c worth, and I'm sure its been said before up thread somewhere, is that this is a f**k you very much from Qantas to any Australian who doesn't happen to live in either Sydney or Melbourne and wants to fly to Europe. How does that sit with the Qantas sale act?

What a load of absolute garbage - what happens with the current setup: ADL, PER and BNE just have SIN terminating flights that connect to the main MEL/SYD-SIN flights that just so happen to continue on to Europe - OH NO, ADL/BNE/PER won't have a same plane service still - first world problems!! Fact: PER/BNE/ADL will ALL have far better frequency to M.E./Europe/Africa with the new setup over the existing arrangement.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 71):


I wonder if the AC folk in YOW/YUL are preparing another press release on how EK has destroyed Australia. Haven't seen anything so far. Maybe they're awaiting instructions from FRA? :-P

I expect a lobbying team is being prepared in Ottawa right about....now.

That said, AC has been studying QF's model particularly with regard to JQ. Maybe they will take a cue from this and tie up with that great ME giant ... KU!
 
tayser
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:12 pm

Other thoughts:

Trans-Tasman - QF currently fly MEL-AKL-MEL 3x daily 738s (Jetconnect?), I wouldn't be surprised if the morning departure ex MEL and the evening departure ex AKL is dropped and the slack taken up on EK's 380s with QF's codes which will start flying the route soon. Likewise this could apply to SYD-AKL and BNE-AKL flights conceivably.

likewise if EK kept DXB-BKK-SYD-CHC-SYD-BKK-DXB on the CHC tag, the QF mainline service (usually a 763?) on SYD-CHC-SYD could possibly dropped and the slack picked up by the EK flight with QF codes on it.
 
777way
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:17 pm

Any chances of QF launching some OZ-Dubai terminator flights with 747 in the future?
 
mogandoCI
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:20 pm

QF exiting SIN-LHR and downgrading SIN-SYD experience away from A380. SQ is the one popping the champagne.
 
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BoeingVista
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:23 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 135):
What a load of absolute garbage - what happens with the current setup: ADL, PER and BNE just have SIN terminating flights that connect to the main MEL/SYD-SIN flights that just so happen to continue on to Europe - OH NO, ADL/BNE/PER won't have a same plane service still - first world problems!! Fact: PER/BNE/ADL will ALL have far better frequency to M.E./Europe/Africa with the new setup over the existing arrangement.

What a load of absolute garbage.

But thats what I have come to expect from your replies, you never seem to read or understand the post you proceed to bad mouth. How will PER/BNE/ADL have better connections when they are not getting a single extra flight or indeed any Qantas flights to DXB and are losing the connection to Europe via SIN?

How does packing PAX 10 wide on a 777 give passengers a better service?

These are 2 pretty basic questions that seem to have been missed in all this glad handing.
BV
 
tayser
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:33 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 140):


But thats what I have come to expect from your replies, you never seem to read or understand the post you proceed to bad mouth. How will PER/BNE/ADL have better connections when they are not getting a single extra flight or indeed any Qantas flights to DXB and are losing the connection to Europe via SIN?

Go back and re-read the thread, PER and ADL -are- getting more flights to DXB on EK metal - just in time for the proposed start date in April 2013.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 140):
How does packing PAX 10 wide on a 777 give passengers a better service?

Let's not split hairs now.

This is a 10 year agreement: immediate benefits for SA and WA through extra EK frequencies, no doubt improvements once QF get 789s in the next 4-5 years and given that as recently as 2010 the UAE and AU signed a new MoU to increase frequencies by 14x weekly + another 21x weekly frequencies to "regional" ports, I wouldn't be surprised if there's some re-jgging to give BNE a 3rd daily (or simply the current 2x daily flights are upgauged to 380s) given the liberal increases in frequencies allowed between the countries.
 
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jetfuel
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 140):
How does packing PAX 10 wide on a 777 give passengers a better service?

THIS is my single biggest concern. Many I know, including me, wont fly on EK's sardine 777. And 7 across in business class on the 777 with a very narrow seat recliner seat is positively inferior

EK is not the luxury comfort airline that everybody thinks it is. My worry is that many loyal QF pax may abandon this EK/QF sardine tin and head to the likes of SQ
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
TWA85
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 103):
Quoting mutu (Reply 101):
An EK tie up serves little benefit for BA' network.

I disagree, it would bring in a large number of destinations. Guangzhou, Osaka, Manila, Ho Chi Minh, Kuala Lumpur, Phuket, New Zealand.

It would work the same as the Qantas deal just in the other direction. I don't see it happening but would be pleased if it did.

Agreed! Although there is a lot of so called overlap between BA and EK, there is just as much if not more complimenteray parts of there networks. EK could provide BA access to many Asian destinations that BA does not currently serve tody. BA could provide EK access to many secondary European destinations and North American destionations that EK does not serve today. Also as EK struggles to secure more landing rights in countries like Germany and Canada, BA could easily add capacity for EK in these countries. EK would also gain access to additional memembers of the BA FF program.

The overall problem of the BA/QF JSA was not the lack of importance for either carrier, it was the lack of room for growth due to geographic restrictions of both airlines. Having EK in the mix would mutually benifit all three airlines together.
 
Quokkas
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 135):
Fact: PER/BNE/ADL will ALL have far better frequency to M.E./Europe/Africa with the new setup over the existing arrangement.

This we do not know for sure. The speculation and rumour machine is now suggesting that the PER - SIN frequency will be reduced. If so, there is no overall additional frequency, only a greater choice of one-stop destinations sold by QF. Those choices were already available to those who wanted to fly EK in any case.

Quoting BoeingVista (Reply 140):
How does packing PAX 10 wide on a 777 give passengers a better service?

It depends on how you define service. For some passengers the priority will be the greater comfort afforded by fewer seats per row. For others the ease of connectivity and shorter travel times may rank higher. QF will now have the ability to sell seats in F for the entire journey, something that was not possible if you travelled from PER via SIN.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
tayser
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 139):
QF exiting SIN-LHR and downgrading SIN-SYD experience away from A380. SQ is the one popping the champagne.

and TG & CX!

They now are able to market themselves as the only airlines to provide a seamless one-stop trip to Europe with a stop-over in Bangkok and Hong Kong respectively. (yes I know VS go via HKG but the single flight is hardly going to attract anyone outside SYD).
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:46 pm

BoeingVista, this isn't about how many tails there are on the apron or how many lines on the route map, but rather providing flights to destinations their passengers want to go. As a FF Silver in BNE I don't feel as if I've just been given the finger. To the contrary I am ecstatic that my horizon has just been broadened several times over, and this will keep me in the QF camp now permanently.

I had been considering a defection to SQ and would have done if it wasn't for my penchant dislike of DJ, but now I don't need to go anywhere.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
tayser
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:50 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 144):
This we do not know for sure. The speculation and rumour machine is now suggesting that the PER - SIN frequency will be reduced. If so, there is no overall additional frequency, only a greater choice of one-stop destinations sold by QF. Those choices were already available to those who wanted to fly EK in any case.

Fair enough, but going by what was said today, focus is shifting away from South East Asia and into East / North Asia - i.e HKG.

There might be a reduction in the short term, but I see this move as a way of clearing the decks for tackling Asia head on given that nearly all reputable aviation sources continually talk about how this is where the growth is and will be for a long time to come.

2016-2020 is when the next refresher for the QF widebody fleet will start to come online, I wont be surprised if:

a) its mainly deployed on point to point individual AU cities to big Asian cities
b) more aircraft are ordered - despite the recent cancellation of 787s. 787/330/350 sized aircraft can get you anywhere from any port in Australia to pretty much all the main centres of Asia (330s a stretch to India, however) with generally 1 aircraft can operate a daily service [this is what CX/MH/SQ all do, one aircraft is dedicated to one frequency whereas now its all muddled up with European flights for QF], an order for next gen 330s or 350s themselves might eventuate so Qantas can just do what SQ, TG, CX, MH and the Chinese airlines do, but in reverse: serve the home markets to the ports where business connections suit - QF is feeble in this area and a rejuvenated international division just might have the stones to take them all on with connections a bonus.

[Edited 2012-09-06 07:52:34]
 
mogandoCI
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:52 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 124):
Effectively, the only reason for QF to remain in OW would be linking up with AA network from the US West coast. QF has become completely irrelevant to IAG, and is a thorn in the eye for CX. I would not be surprised if QF leave OW at some point (but maintaining an alliance with AA for US destinations).

QF could just as easily obtain the same feed from UA if they're willing to jump to Star Alliance. But they probably would have to first can EK before LH would say yes.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting tayser (Reply 145):
and TG & CX!

They now are able to market themselves as the only airlines to provide a seamless one-stop trip to Europe with a stop-over in Bangkok and Hong Kong respectively. (yes I know VS go via HKG but the single flight is hardly going to attract anyone outside SYD).

CX's feelings are mixed. On one hand, more oneworld purists would choose them over EK services. On the other, JQ is invading CX territory even further (and they wonder why CX is not cooperating).

I think the net winners of the deal are EK and Star.

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