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RyanairGuru
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:13 pm

Quoting fiscal (Reply 198):
That would be right. Snub Perth passengers again where we have just under a 12 hour flight.....

Well given that PER is going to be operated by EK, how is QF not offering limos in any way snubbing PER?
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Quokkas
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:52 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 200):
Well given that PER is going to be operated by EK, how is QF not offering limos in any way snubbing PER?

If you book a flight in J/F with an EK coded ticket you will be entitled to a chauffeur drive to the airport and a car to your hotel or wherever at your destination. If you book the same flight on QF's website and have a QF coded ticket will you receive the same benefit as the flight block is about 11.00 one way and 10.30 the other, assuming the flight terminates in DXB.

But according to this link not all QF passengers flying 12 hours or more will benefit.

Quote:
Travellers connecting via a domestic flight to an eligible Qantas international flight - more than 12 hours - will have access to the Chauffeur Drive service

If the article is correct, if you were flying out of Sydney or Melbourne(for example) you would only be eligible if you were first flying into Sydney or Melbourne in order to join that flight. The article also does not make clear if the flight refers solely to the first leg (e.g. SYD-DXB) or the complete journey (e.g. CBR-SYD-DXB-LHR)

The EK service has different distance limits for passengers in J and F and in different cities. This service is not available in all countries but is in most of Europe and in the USA and Canada. Will QF's service have similar limitations?

So many questions....

Perhaps this is one of the things that still needs refinement or improved communication of what is actually being offered.


Emended to change SIN to SYD.

[Edited 2012-09-07 06:20:39]
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SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:00 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 142):
My worry is that many loyal QF pax may abandon this EK/QF sardine tin and head to the likes of SQ

Why is that a worry may I ask ?
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VHTAE
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:02 pm

I am so looking forward to and excited about this alliance. These two carriers are my preferred when traveling domestically and internationally. The Emirates terminal in Dubai is amazing and to have so many connections available onto Europe will definitely ensure my loyalty to both Qantas and Emirates.

VH-TAE.
 
mdavies06
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:04 pm

Quoting mcogator (Reply 169):
Quote:
The hotels are chasing a lucrative and booming market. Dubai hotels ranked number one on the global hotel occupancy list at 86.2 percent in January 2012, up from ninth place a year earlier, according to a report last month by the hotel industry research firm STR Global, higher than in Tokyo, Paris or New York.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/wo...d=all

However, January is a peak travel season for the Dubai and non peak in Japan, France and US!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 170):
Here is a number for you. Between QF and EK, this will move 1.5M to 2M passengers a year to transiting DXB from SIN on 1 April 2013 (if the schedule holds). PLUS any growth to secondary European cities that are enabled by the this QF/EK announcement. Let's just agree to disagree on the number of secondary city passengers for I think it will grow quickly to a significant number and you do not.

How many daily flights would this implies - the two new A380 daily flights to LHR? this figure seems a lot from two flights.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 170):
But the most exciting part for me will be when SQ/JQ starts to open up new European cities, in partnership with EK, with their latent bilateral air service rights. A new city in Germany? CDG? (QF just freed up rights with the termination of the AF code share...), VIE?, more LHR slots? This seems right in line with what the Qantas group has done at the Asian hubs... Why not at DXB?

The problem of not being its own hub and high operating cost won't go away for QF and JQ though.

Quoting faz777 (Reply 179):
I hope EK push Dubai govt. to start thinking long term for AMI down the road (the worlds biggest airport in waiting).

Good point.
 
dcaviation
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:09 pm

wow QF sold its soul to the devil. the funny thing is that the biggest losers will be Australian flying public. No more competition. Pricing will be set accordingly. just wow
 
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:19 pm

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 205):
wow QF sold its soul to the devil. the funny thing is that the biggest losers will be Australian flying public. No more competition. Pricing will be set accordingly. just wow

When you are competing on probably the most competitive route in the world (in terms of no. airlines), 2 joining together isn't exactly the end of competition...
 
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:19 pm

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 205):
No more competition. Pricing will be set accordingly

Do you have any idea how many airlines fly to Australia, especially to Europe?
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
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jetfuel
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:22 pm

Quoting SInGAPORE_AIR (Reply 202):
Quoting jetfuel (Reply 142):
My worry is that many loyal QF pax may abandon this EK/QF sardine tin and head to the likes of SQ

Why is that a worry may I ask ?

SQ and Tiger are probably the most threatening/hated airline if you talk to Qantas
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting vhtae (Reply 203):
I am so looking forward to and excited about this alliance. These two carriers are my preferred when traveling domestically and internationally. The Emirates terminal in Dubai is amazing and to have so many connections available onto Europe will definitely ensure my loyalty to both Qantas and Emirates.

VH-TAE.

Cheers...

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 205):

wow QF sold its soul to the devil. the funny thing is that the biggest losers will be Australian flying public. No more competition. Pricing will be set accordingly. just wow

And the Australians will be the biggest losers why?!$&@&$!? Hmmm... Services to DXB from SYD, MEL, BNE, ADL, & PER with a gateway to 33 European cities & that's just the beginning of the Australian flying public options... Just wow!

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 207):

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 205):
No more competition. Pricing will be set accordingly

Do you have any idea how many airlines fly to Australia, especially to Europe?

I'll would put $100 on absolutely no idea how many airlines serve Australia...

EK413
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lightsaber
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:27 pm

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 197):
Or better yet. When the regulators don't approve, Qantas and Emirates can continue their partnership, and claim that they thought the regulators were making an April Fool's joke.

   Nice play.

Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 204):
How many daily flights would this implies - the two new A380 daily flights to LHR? this figure seems a lot from two flights.

But it isn't just two flights to LHR. It will be other flights from Australia feeding EK's extensive network.

Perhaps my numbers are a little high, but of the right order of magnitude.

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 206):
When you are competing on probably the most competitive route in the world (in terms of no. airlines), 2 joining together isn't exactly the end of competition...

Wow, I wanted to prove that the most competitive route in the world is NRT-LAX.    7 airlines fly the direct, but off the top of my head, these are the ones that fly SYD to LHR:
QF, EK, SQ, QR, TI, CX, VA, MH, CZ, and ??.

The ?? includes AI, Guardia? (do they fly the route?), and any Chinese airlines I might have forgotten. But getting to nine competing airlines is enough! I am convinced that QF/EK will not have much pricing power.

Lightsaber
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qf002
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 210):

Also KE, OZ, TG, EY, QR, CA, BR, SA, AC, UA, DL, MU, JL etc -- though this isn't limited to just SYD. There most certainly will continue to be cheaper options -- it just won't be EK anymore.
 
LH121GLA
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:04 pm

I may have missed it from above but is there any indication yet of what will happen to EK's Trans Tasman services?
 
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mariner
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:38 pm

There's one small benefit to the DXB service - in many cases the British APD - Airport Departure tax goes down:

http://www.theage.com.au/business/qa...s-its-bleeding-20120907-25jv3.html

"The other seemingly forgotten benefit of the Emirates alliance - and it is material - is that Qantas and its passengers will pay lower departure taxes to British and German government authorities.

The UK departure tax, called the air passenger duty (APD), is higher for UK flights departing for Australia that hub through Singapore, Hong Kong and Bangkok than for flights that hub through Dubai when passengers stay at the hub point for 24 hours or more, which is the case for a high percentage of passengers."


 

mariner
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LH121GLA
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:00 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 213):

There's one small benefit to the DXB service - in many cases the British APD - Airport Departure tax goes down:

Yes, like the article states, for those spending +24h at the hub point. For those in transit at DXB it will not make one little bit of difference.
 
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mariner
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:07 pm

Quoting LH121GLA (Reply 214):
Yes, like the article states, for those spending 24h at the hub point. For those in transit at DXB it will not make one little bit of difference.

Every little helps.

I see that Qantas has confirmed the chauffeur service, too:

http://www.voxy.co.nz/business/qanta...ces-new-chauffeur-service/5/134117

"Qantas today announced a new chauffeur service for Qantas travellers as part of its global airline partnership with Emirates.

Chauffeur Drive, which is planned to start in April 2013, will be offered to Qantas passengers travelling in First and Business on flights greater than 12 hours long."


mariner
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Viscount724
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 207):
Quoting dcaviation (Reply 205):
No more competition. Pricing will be set accordingly

Do you have any idea how many airlines fly to Australia, especially to Europe?

At least 18 carriers can offer one-stop connecting service between Australia and Europe via Asia on their own metal (not counting codeshares), plus another 3 (AC/UA/DL) that can do it on the longer route via North America. AR can also do it via EZE which to some points in Europe (e.g. MAD) is about the same distance as via North America.

[Edited 2012-09-07 13:27:04]
 
Viscount724
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:32 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 51):
It's like KLM-Northwest all over again.

Which was a highly-successful venture.

Quoting Andrensn (Reply 107):
Weird question for my end of year trip next year:
Would this JV allow me to go WLG-SYD (QF) SYD-SIN (QF) SIN-CMB (EK) on one ticket?

I'm sure you can do that today. Almost all major carriers have interline ticketing agreements with all other major carriers that allow them to issue tickets on the other carriers' services. For some reason, many people seem to think that you need an alliance or codeshare agreement to do that. Airlines have been doing that since the earliest days of air travel.
 
ikramerica
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 213):
The UK departure tax, called the air passenger duty (APD), is higher for UK flights departing for Australia that hub through Singapore, Hong Kong and Bangkok than for flights that hub through Dubai when passengers stay at the hub point for 24 hours or more, which is the case for a high percentage of passengers."

How do they define a high percentage? Compared to what, zero?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Viscount724
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 218):
Quoting mariner (Reply 213):
The UK departure tax, called the air passenger duty (APD), is higher for UK flights departing for Australia that hub through Singapore, Hong Kong and Bangkok than for flights that hub through Dubai when passengers stay at the hub point for 24 hours or more, which is the case for a high percentage of passengers."

How do they define a high percentage? Compared to what, zero?

I have no data but I would guess the percentage of EK passengers UK-Australia that spend 24 hours or more in DXB between flights is in the low single digits. People want to get where they're going as quickly as possible these days.
 
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mariner
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 218):
How do they define a high percentage? Compared to what, zero?

The opposite of a "low" percentage, perhaps?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 219):
I have no data but I would guess the percentage of EK passengers UK-Australia that spend 24 hours or more in DXB between flights is in the low single digits. People want to get where they're going as quickly as possible these days.

Almost everyone I know (which is still a low percentage) traveling from NZ to London with Emirates chooses a stopover in Dubai. Emirates offers dome great hotel deals.

Removing Emirates and Dubai from the equation, I have very few friends in Oz or NZ who fly straight through - most elect for a stopover in Asia, either going there or coming back. One well-heeled chum chooses the airline(s) by the stopover deal they offer.

I am sure there are some - even many - who fly straight through but I;m not too sure why you'd pay all that money just to get there.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
tayser
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:47 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 210):
but off the top of my head, these are the ones that fly SYD to LHR:
QF, EK, SQ, QR, TI, CX, VA, MH, CZ, and ??.
Quoting qf002 (Reply 211):
Also KE, OZ, TG, EY, QR, CA, BR, SA, AC, UA, DL, MU, JL etc -- though this isn't limited to just SYD. There most certainly will continue to be cheaper options -- it just won't be EK anymore.

The reduction in competition arguments are laughable eh!

I'll attempt a fairly detailed analysis with the two end points of MEL and LHR - despite the fact we really shouldn't focus on a single city at either end, but anyhow:

All options for passengers in MEL who want to fly to LHR, post April 2013, no more than a 3-4 hour stopover in the M.E or Asian hub - one direction only (AU -> UK):

departure time ex MEL, arrival time in LHR

Direct competition between airlines - 22-28 hour flight time

QF 9 - MEL-DXB-LHR (380) daily dep 3:30pm arr 5:40am [assumed similar times as current QF9]

EK 405 - MEL-SIN-DXB (77W) daily, connects to EK1 DXB-LHR (380) daily (2 hour connection time in DXB, 2 hour layover in SIN) dep 6:00pm arr midday
EK 406 - MEL-DXB (380) daily, connects to EK1 DXB-LHR (380) daily (2 hour connection time) or EK29 DXB-LHR (380) daily (3.5 hour connection time) dep 9:30pm arr midday or 2:30pm
EK 409 - MEL-KUL-DXB (77W) daily, connects to EK5 DXB-LHR (380) daily (2 hour connection time in DXB, 2 hour layover in KUL) - dep 2:40am arr 8:45pm - this has a departure time from MEL of 2.40am and is no doubt #1 priority to change.

EY 461 - MEL-AUH (345/346) daily, connects to EY 19 AUH-LHR (77W) daily (2 hour connection time) dep 10:00pm arr 1:00pm

QR 31 - MEL-DOH (77L) daily, connects to QR 11 DOH- LHR (77W) daily (2 hour connection time) dep 11:00pm arr 1:30pm

SQ 218 - MEL-SIN (773/77W) daily, connects to SQ 306 SIN-LHR (380) daily (2 hour connection time) dep midnight arr 3:30pm
SQ 228 - MEL-SIN (380) daily, connects to SQ 332 (daily) / SQ 316 (Thur only) (380) (2 hour connection time) dep 3:30pm arr 6:30am
* SQ has one more frequency(SQ 238, dep 10:30am), but doesnt connect to an LHR flight, assumption its mostly the same day intra-asian connection flight

MH 128 - MEL-KUL (330/77E) daily, connects to MH 4 - KUL-LHR (744) daily (3 hour connection time) dep midnight arr 4:00pm
MH 148 - MEL-KUL (330/77E) daily, connects to MH 2 - KUL-LHR (380) daily (2 hour connection time) dep 2:30pm arr 6:00am

TG 466 - MEL-BKK (77E) daily, connects to TG 910 BKK-LHR (346) daily (4 hour connection time) dep 2:00pm arr 6:00am
* TG has one more frequency (TG 462 dep midnight - 5 x weekly - at present, might change in April 2013) and like SQ is probably more geared toward intra-asian flying

VN have no direct LHR/LGW service from HAN or SGN where the MEL flight flies through, they do connect to other European ports.

CX 104 - MEL-HKG (333) daily, connects to CX 251 HKG-LHR (77W) daily (2 hour connection time) dep 2:30pm arr 6:00am
CX 178 - MEL-HKG (333) daily, connects to CX 257 HKG-LHR (744) daily [seasonal flight?] (2 hour connection time) dep midnight arr 4:00pm
* CX like TG and SQ has one more frequency (CX 134, dep 8:00am daily) which caters for intra-asian flying

CZ 322 - MEL-CAN (332) daily, connects to CZ 303 CAN-LHR (332) 3x weekly (3 hour connection time) dep 10:30pm arr 3:25pm
* CZ has one more frequency (CZ 344 3x weekly) but like TG, SQ, and CX connects to intra-asian flights

MU & CA dont offer same day / one-stop LHR connections via PVG or PEK.
KE don't offer same day connection to LHR via ICN
No Japanese or Taiwanese Carriers fly to MEL

Periphery Competition - beyond 28 hours flying time

NZ 124 - MEL-AKL (77W) daily, connects to NZ 2 AKL-LAX-LHR (77W) daily (4 hour connection time) dep midday arr 11:00am [32 hours]

__________

For SYD add about 20-30% more options (airlines like SQ and CX have 4 daily frequencies to SYD and no doubt 3 of the 4 connect onwards, there's double the EY/VA frequency to connect to Europe). For BNE reduce the options by 10%, for PER reduce the options by 20-30% and ADL reduce the options by 50-60% to give you a general idea for the competition from Australia's big 5 ports to LHR.

QF & EK to combine their pricing. But that still leaves competition from 7 + airlines. SQ and TG compete with each other despite being in Star, CX has always competed with QF, CZ is the newcomer with its "Canton route" likely to add more frequencies on CAN-LHR soon enough, then no doubt MU and CZ will follow suit.

Like an earlier post, you compare to Trans-Altantic and there's generally only 3-4 different competing groups of airlines!
 
CXfirst
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:29 am

The beauty with the kangaroo route is that it does require one-stop no matter which way you go, and that creates a lot of options. In comparison, trans-atlantic and trans-pacific (mostly), has non-stop options, and therefore they get an immediate advantage (when travelling trans-atlantic, most passengers just compare non-stop options rather than one-stop options).

I do not expect prices to go up. Current EK pricing is where I see QF flights being priced, which is very competitive.

As for PER, I do lose the QF/BA option, but still have QF/EK, SQ, TG, MH, CZ, CX, QR. That is 7 options, with potentially GA, EY/VA and even VS being future potentials.

-CXfirst
 
cam747
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:36 am

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 205):

wow QF sold its soul to the devil. the funny thing is that the biggest losers will be Australian flying public. No more competition. Pricing will be set accordingly. just wow

May I also add myself to the list of a.netters who think this is a ridiculous and ill-considered comment. The Kangaroo route is one of the most competitive in the world, and that won't change.

I've been a critic of many of QF's decisions in the past, but I think this announcement is fantastic, and will hopefully be the saviour of QF International. They still get to serve key destinations with their own metal, and get to focus on direct Asian destinations - which will hopefully mean better services for my home town of ADL - long neglected by QF.

On a side note - very interesting article in The Australian today with some insight into the conception of the deal, worth a read. (The article is behind a paywall, but if you google the title, you can read the whole thing).

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...antas/story-e6frg95x-1226467714292
 
Escapehere
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:22 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 171):
MAN is surely bigger than CDG.

For EK, perhaps MAN is bigger than CDG, but I doubt it is for the entire Australian market. As far as I'm aware, flying to MAN one stop from Australia, your only option is EK. There are a ton airlines/alliances that can get you one stop from Australia to CDG - EK is one of many.

That's not to dismiss your point about secondary cities and their importance, I do agree with you. I know a few people who fly EK, despite not really liking the airline, *precisely* because they go to the likes of Birmingham and Glasgow in one stop. However, overall, I think CDG would be a bigger destination on the Kangaroo route than MAN. Let's face it - if you're going to MAN it's probably to see relatives, not for the amazing weather, beautiful cityscape or numerous tourist activities it offers.
 
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jetfuel
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:31 am

Quoting escapehere (Reply 224):
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 171):
MAN is surely bigger than CDG.

For EK, perhaps MAN is bigger than CDG, but I doubt it is for the entire Australian market

Reality is QF used to operate to MAN, so it is an important market
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
CXfirst
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:09 am

Quoting escapehere (Reply 224):
However, overall, I think CDG would be a bigger destination on the Kangaroo route than MAN. Let's face it - if you're going to MAN it's probably to see relatives, not for the amazing weather, beautiful cityscape or numerous tourist activities it offers.

That's a very Australian point of view.

Remember, the kangaroo route goes both ways.

I would predict that there more people living in MAN wanting to go to Australia, than people living in Paris wanting to go to Australia, with the reasons being the same as above, family + Manchester residents might be a little bit more attracted to warmer climates.

-CXfirst
 
srbmod
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RE: QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12

Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:33 pm

Please continue the discussion here:

QF & EK Announcement - 10am Aest 6/9/12 Part 2 (by YankeesFan Sep 7 2012 in Civil Aviation)

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