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Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:13 pm
by fpetrutiu
RENTON, Wash., Sept. 6, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Boeing's (NYSE: BA) Next-Generation 737-900ER (Extended Range) surpassed 500 orders this week. The milestone was reached when a customer converted its 737-700s to 737-900ERs.

Source: http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2406

Any idea who converted?

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:15 pm
by Stitch
I imagine we'll find out on Thursday when the publish the weekly numbers.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:20 pm
by ssteve
Aviation Capital Group?

Odd that they have a large outstanding unfilled order for 700s.

[Edited 2012-09-10 13:21:29]

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:23 pm
by rotating14

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:26 pm
by callumm92
Quoting fpetrutiu (Thread starter):
Any idea who converted?

It's actually United, as reported in www.aviationweek.com

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:34 pm
by drerx7
Quoting SSTeve (Reply 2):
Odd that they have a large outstanding unfilled order for 700s.

The -700 is usually the place holder for airlines and can be switched to any variant up to a certain point in time.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:56 pm
by 1337Delta764
Also, the 739ER is now the fifth best selling 737 variant of all time, after the 738, 733, 73G, and 732, and ahead of the 734, 735, 736, 739, and 731.

[Edited 2012-09-10 13:58:23]

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:03 pm
by AirframeAS
Quoting rotating14 (Reply 3):

The customer was UA.....

Isn't this old news, like a month old or so?

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:05 pm
by FlyASAGuy2005
While many were saying that the 739 (ER) was somewhat of a dog as far as sales goes, it seems like it}s finally found its place as big airlines such as DL and UA line up their ducks to replace the 757.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:06 pm
by FriendlySkies
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
Isn't this old news, like a month old or so?

UA placed a new order for 50 739ERs and 100 739 MAX then, but this sounds like conversion of more of the original CO order already on the books.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:14 pm
by United1
Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 9):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
Isn't this old news, like a month old or so?

UA placed a new order for 50 739ERs and 100 739 MAX then, but this sounds like conversion of more of the original CO order already on the books.

This is a conversion of the 737-700's that were used as placeholders.

If I did my math right UA plans on taking:

100 737-9 MAX
140 737-900ER (of which 43 are currently in service)

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:14 pm
by STT757
UA converted the remaining 47 CO 73G orders to additional 737-900ERs, CO had a large 73G order on the books with Boeing but hasn't taken delivery of any new 73Gs in quite a long time. They've all been converted to either 738s or 739s as production neared.

Boeing now lists for UA:

97 737-900ERs
100 737-9MAX

(47 were of the 97 737-900ERS were converted from the sCO 73G order and 50 were part of the recently announced order for 50 737-900ERs and 100 737-9MAX).

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:22 pm
by AirframeAS
Ah, that makes more sense now. Thanks.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:27 pm
by VC10er
In the end will UA be the largest 737 operator? Or will Southwest be largest? (I assume they are the largest)

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:48 pm
by FlyASAGuy2005
Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):

I would assume WN will hold that title in the US market even after these top off orders.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:11 pm
by United1
Quoting VC10er (Reply 13):

In the end will UA be the largest 737 operator? Or will Southwest be largest? (I assume they are the largest)

WN will still be larger but assuming UA doesn't retire any 737NGs they will have 418 737NG/MAX once all have been delivered.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:11 pm
by mham001
Fantastic. It wasn't too long ago I was reading here that Boeing should not even bother offering the plane, it was so inferior.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:21 am
by traindoc
The 737-900 may be able to fly a lot of routes that the 757 flies. But, they are very different aircraft. The 757 has a wider fuselage and at 3 by 3 is more roomy in Y than the 739. The 757 is a BMW, while the 739 is a Camry. They both go from point A to point B, but one of them is a more enjoyable trip. The only area in which the 739 excels vs. the 757 is fuel burn.

Now I am not knocking the 737, it is a good A/C. But the 757 and 737 are quite different animals. In fact, the A 321 is closer size wise to the 757, than is the 739. But it too cannot directly compete with the 757 when it comes to range or payload.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:36 am
by Stitch
Quoting traindoc (Reply 17):
The 757 has a wider fuselage and at 3 by 3 is more roomy in Y than the 739.

The 737 and 757 have identical interior widths at 139" and identical exterior widths at 148". They have identical seat widths (17") and identical aisle widths (20").

[Edited 2012-09-10 18:37:50]

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:40 am
by traindoc
I stand corrected! Mea culpa! So why does the 757 interior seem bigger than the 737 interior?

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:43 am
by col
I did not realize that the 321 was such a dog compared with the 739ER. Am surprised that they have delivered 4 x as many 321's than 739ER's this year and sold more than double totally. Gotta love the A and B marketing teams trying to put down each others products.

Good to see the 739ER doing well anyway, but it is at the expense of the 73G, the new 736?

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:43 am
by vaus77w
Quoting traindoc (Reply 17):
The 737-900 may be able to fly a lot of routes that the 757 flies. But, they are very different aircraft. The 757 has a wider fuselage and at 3 by 3 is more roomy in Y than the 739. The 757 is a BMW, while the 739 is a Camry. They both go from point A to point B, but one of them is a more enjoyable trip. The only area in which the 739 excels vs. the 757 is fuel burn.

That's actually not correct, the 757 has the exact same fuselage width as the 737.

EDIT: Beaten to it.

[Edited 2012-09-10 18:45:04]

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:45 am
by ChiGB1973
Quoting traindoc (Reply 17):

The 737-900 may be able to fly a lot of routes that the 757 flies. But, they are very different aircraft. The 757 has a wider fuselage and at 3 by 3 is more roomy in Y than the 739. The 757 is a BMW, while the 739 is a Camry. They both go from point A to point B, but one of them is a more enjoyable trip. The only area in which the 739 excels vs. the 757 is fuel burn.
Cabin Size 737 V. 757 (by Ultrapig Nov 14 2004 in Civil Aviation)

I had to look it up, but I thought they were the same.

M

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:55 am
by gigneil
Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 8):
While many were saying that the 739 (ER) was somewhat of a dog as far as sales goes, it seems like it}s finally found its place as big airlines such as DL and UA line up their ducks to replace the 757.

It and the A321 have leapt ahead as improvements happened, 757s got old, and CASM ruled the sky,

Quoting mham001 (Reply 16):
Fantastic. It wasn't too long ago I was reading here that Boeing should not even bother offering the plane, it was so inferior.

The 737-900 that was definitely the case.

Quoting traindoc (Reply 19):
I stand corrected! Mea culpa! So why does the 757 interior seem bigger than the 737 interior?

Where the floor is in the fuse, from what I been told.

NS

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:07 am
by Mcoov
Quoting col (Reply 20):
Am surprised that they have delivered 4 x as many 321's than 739ER's this year and sold more than double totally.

That's because at the time, Boeing only offered the 737-900, not the 737-900ER. The original 739 was a 738 with more room for cargo, and was the dog in the 757 replacement market.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:29 am
by gigneil
Quoting col (Reply 20):
Good to see the 739ER doing well anyway, but it is at the expense of the 73G, the new 736?

The 736 hasn't had an order in years.

NS

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:04 am
by ODwyerPW
Got to love it!! 500 of the 739ER! It's been holding it's own against the A321 recently.

It is still my favorite plane.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:02 am
by col
Quoting gigneil (Reply 25):
The 736 hasn't had an order in years.

The 73G has one BBJ order this year and they have delivered 7. Similar pattern to 736 a few years back. 319 is also headed that way, but not so dramatic. Probably down to performance of 738 v 73G.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:44 am
by wjcandee
Quoting traindoc (Reply 17):
In fact, the A 321 is closer size wise to the 757, than is the 739. But it too cannot directly compete with the 757 when it comes to range or payload.

Or baggage.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:07 am
by Clydenairways
Quoting traindoc (Reply 17):
Now I am not knocking the 737, it is a good A/C. But the 757 and 737 are quite different animals. In fact, the A 321 is closer size wise to the 757, than is the 739. But it too cannot directly compete with the 757 when it comes to range or payload.
Quoting wjcandee (Reply 28):
Or baggage.

So what. The 767 carries more payload and more range than the 757, all things are relative.

Despite what people here on A-net say, the Airlines want the 739ER/MAX and A321/NEO.
Those two aircraft have the operating costs they want and the 757 doesn't.

You could design an all new narrow body with the same range/payload and take-off performance as the 757. But it would still have higher operating costs than the 739ER and 321. It would just be a niche aircraft.

People need to understand that aircraft markets are not cast in stone, but evolve over time.
Just because in one generation there was an aircraft with X capacity/range/payload etc doesn't mean it's replacement will have exactly the same capabilities.

The market dictates what the future needs are for operating costs and performance.

If you need more performance then that's no problem to achieve, but performance costs money.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:52 am
by Burkhard
Quoting col (Reply 20):
Good to see the 739ER doing well anyway, but it is at the expense of the 73G, the new 736?

Average aircraft size is going up, slowly, slower than some people hope, but steadily. I expect the 737-MAX market ot be mainly 738 and 739. 737 MAX and A319NEO only have a niche market if they offer larger range compared to the bigger models.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:54 am
by airliner371
Quote:
The 736 hasn't had an order in years.

I think that was his point. I think he means the 737 is going to die like the 736.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:20 am
by sweair
A318/319/737-700/MAX-7 might start to feel the growing new competition coming from below. Its seems that the sweet spot of the NB market for A+B are the larger models.

Maybe A+Bs frames become more suboptimal when fuel efficiency get even more important. The 700/319 are a bit heavier than say Bombardiers try at the 110-140 seat market.

I guess A+B only have one way to maintain or grow their market and that is upward in size. Maybe the NSA will become even larger to better fit their future role.

Adapt and survive, the one that sleeps in old comfort may not survive in the long run.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:32 am
by HAWK21M
Quoting vaus77w (Reply 21):
the 757 has the exact same fuselage width as the 737.

True.

What the number of B739s manufactured in comparisn and when the B739ER was introduced was the B739 program shut.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:56 am
by Boeing74741R
Quoting Mcoov (Reply 24):
Quoting col (Reply 20):
Am surprised that they have delivered 4 x as many 321's than 739ER's this year and sold more than double totally.

That's because at the time, Boeing only offered the 737-900, not the 737-900ER. The original 739 was a 738 with more room for cargo, and was the dog in the 757 replacement market.

In addition I think the 737-900 could only carry the same amount of passengers as the 737-800 due to the amount of exits being the same (KLM configure their 739s with 189 seats to offer a 2-class service and more galley space). As the 737-900ER has an extra set of exits behind the wings it can take advantage of the extra length to offer more seats, as well as the other improvements to range.

The A321 had the amount of required exits from the off so could carry more passengers than the 737-900 and be closer to the seating capacity of a 757-200, which partly explains why the worldwide A321 fleet is larger than the worldwide 739/739ER fleet.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:25 pm
by scbriml
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 33):
What the number of B739s manufactured in comparisn and when the B739ER was introduced was the B739 program shut.

Boeing only sold 52 of the non-ER version of the 737-900. Yes, once the ER version was available, the non-ER was no longer offered for sale.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:48 pm
by fun2fly
It is amazing that UA will have 240 739ER and 739MAX.

Will competition change UA's plans? I wonder if UA will take some of these 739ER or MAX's and put them into P.S. configuration right from the factory. The AA transcon video in the other thread is fantastic and would surpass even an even an upgraded UA752. Plus save fuel.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:50 pm
by speedygonzales
Quoting traindoc (Reply 17):
In fact, the A 321 is closer size wise to the 757, than is the 739. But it too cannot directly compete with the 757 when it comes to range or payload.

The A321 actually has slightly higher max payload than the 757-200 until the range where it starts to become payload limited.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:00 pm
by Stitch
Trip costs between the A319 and A320 | 737-700 and 737-800 are often so close that the extra seats the A320/738 offer are essentially "free". If you sell them, it's extra profit and if you do not, hauling them empty doesn't really cost you anything. As such, the trend with more and more operators is to choose the larger model.

Airbus and Boeing already know the A318 and 736 are non-starters against the CSeries (or a stretch MRJ / SSJ) so they are not bothering to carry them forward. The A319neo and 737-7 will appeal mostly to customers with field performance needs or long, thin routes.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:23 pm
by sweair
Is there any 757-300WL flying trans continental? 289 seats in one class and almost 3600nm range, that must be a hard target to beat even after all this time? 289 seats in a NB must be cramped? That is even more than the highest density 788s?

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:33 pm
by 817Dreamliiner
Quoting sweair (Reply 39):

The highest densiy 788 is 335 on NH domestic birds.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:47 pm
by sweair
oh, 335 seats in a 788..I have been on a 299 seat 332 and that was tight. About the same size of airframe.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:53 pm
by hiflyeras
Quoting Boeing74741R (Reply 34):
In addition I think the 737-900 could only carry the same amount of passengers as the 737-800 due to the amount of exits being the same (KLM configure their 739s with 189 seats to offer a 2-class service and more galley space). As the 737-900ER has an extra set of exits behind the wings it can take advantage of the extra length to offer more seats, as well as the other improvements to range.

AS takes their first 900ER soon...configured with 16/172 and the additional aft wing exit plugged. Their standard 900 carries 16/156 and their 800 16/141. So you get quite a reduction in CASM with the 900ER vs. similar models.

I don't think the extra exit is required unless you go for an all-coach configuration and exceed 200 seats.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:00 pm
by avi8
When are these new aircraft going to be delivered?

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:04 pm
by CaptSkibi
Quoting traindoc (Reply 19):
So why does the 757 interior seem bigger than the 737 interior?

I believe I've seen in another thread that the 737's bins were lowered (pre-Sky interior) to accommodate the larger roll-aboard bags wheels/handles in. NW had to add a bump and expanded doors to accommodate the roll-aboard bags on their 757's.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:09 pm
by PlaneAdmirer
Alright so can a 737-900ER take off at MTOW from the following airports: MDW; DCA; LGA; DAL, EWR (I would think so since UA has them on order); and DEN?

Based on the cities I am asking about everyone knows this question is leading to a certain airline that just took delivery of 737-800s.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:03 pm
by CALTECH
Quoting traindoc (Reply 19):
I stand corrected! Mea culpa! So why does the 757 interior seem bigger than the 737 interior?

The galley that seperates the fwd cabin from the aft cabin on the 757. On the 737, it is just a partition. It makes a big difference in perception.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 23):
Where the floor is in the fuse, from what I been told.

Not so. Now, the aft cargo compartment was lowered on the 757. It is 11.95 inches deeper than the fwd cargo, the 757 fuaselage is fatter aft of the wing than before it. The floor beams for the 737 and 757 are in the same place, no difference. 707,720,727,737 and 757 all share the same cabin dimension.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:19 pm
by lightsaber
Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
Trip costs between the A319 and A320 | 737-700 and 737-800 are often so close that the extra seats the A320/738 offer are essentially "free". If you sell them, it's extra profit and if you do not, hauling them empty doesn't really cost you anything. As such, the trend with more and more operators is to choose the larger model.

To further expand: Because of this, the resale value of A319s and 73Gs has a little faster depreciation than the A320/738. Thus, financing of the smaller models has become more expensive and thus, for new build, there can actually be a case where (for a short enough lease) the costs per flight are identical.

This is why the A319NEO and 737-7MAX have not been great sellers (no 737-7MAX sales actually...).

Quoting col (Reply 20):
Good to see the 739ER doing well anyway, but it is at the expense of the 73G, the new 736?

Every engine upgrade has increased the optimal size of the 737. I expect the NEO to do best with the A321. With the MAX, it could remain the 738MAX or go up to the 739MAX. Either way, it is a sale. I expect few short fuselage MAX and NEO sales.

Quoting col (Reply 27):
The 73G has one BBJ order this year and they have delivered 7. Similar pattern to 736 a few years back. 319 is also headed that way, but not so dramatic. Probably down to performance of 738 v 73G.

Considering Allegiant is buying used A319s, that says the resale is poor. Who will finance the smaller planes?

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 29):
Despite what people here on A-net say, the Airlines want the 739ER/MAX and A321/NEO.

   In particular for TATL. For the A321NEO, there is good money being spent to give it the range. Nothing public yet, but R&D money is employing friends of mine.   

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 45):
Alright so can a 737-900ER take off at MTOW from the following airports: MDW; DCA; LGA; DAL, EWR (I would think so since UA has them on order); and DEN?

LGA, DEN, and EWR will not be an issue. Oh, LGA might not be at MTOW, but enough routes will be met (e.g., to ORD). For the others... UA could always sub in a fractionally smaller aircraft and charge higher fares. I've flown many a route where the better CASM of the 738 resulted in the 752 being removed from the route.

I fully expect a good number of 752 missions to not be flyable by the 739MAX.    That is what the 738MAX is for.  

Lightsaber

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:35 pm
by yeelep
Quoting hiflyeras (Reply 42):
AS takes their first 900ER soon...configured with 16/172 and the additional aft wing exit plugged. Their standard 900 carries 16/156 and their 800 16/141. So you get quite a reduction in CASM with the 900ER vs. similar models.

The AS -900's could be configured to have almost the same number of seats as the ER will. The difference is the slimline vs standard seats and the ER having a flat rear pressure bulkhead that will allow a closet to be relocated.

Quoting hiflyeras (Reply 42):
I don't think the extra exit is required unless you go for an all-coach configuration and exceed 200 seats.

I think the -800, -900 and 900ER with plugs are all limited to 189 seats.

Quoting avi8 (Reply 43):
When are these new aircraft going to be delivered?

If you are referring to AS. The first one should be in the next month, with three more by the end of the year and 25 total by the end of 2014.

RE: Boeing's 737-900ER Surpasses 500 Orders

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:02 pm
by CRJ900
Quoting hiflyeras (Reply 42):
AS takes their first 900ER soon...configured with 16/172 and the additional aft wing exit plugged. Their standard 900 carries 16/156

That will be 16 seats more in Y on the 900ER, does that mean the 900 has a luxurious seat pitch and the 900ER will be a tight squeeze or will there be new slimline seats allowing more rows but with same pitch? Will the 900 be reconfigured to match the new 900ER?

Great to hear that the 900ER has sold so well   It reminds me a bit about the good old B707 with those extra exits - let the nostalgia live on