LaoLao
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LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:46 pm

Some elaboration about the battle between LH and EK:


 
PlaneInsomniac
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:31 pm

Very interesting analysis. Is it yours? It makes me question the long-term sustainability of EK's business model, which depends on a very low cost base. As the fleet and staff age, as well as with rising oil prices, one has to wonder if they can keep costs at their current level.
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
MaverickM11
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:44 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 1):
It makes me question the long-term sustainability of EK's business model, which depends on a very low cost base.

+ enormous investment in Dubai as a whole, and for Indian/Pakistani/other carriers to remain total basket cases. Any of that changes and things could get real ugly, real quick for EK/EY/QR.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
LaoLao
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:46 pm

@ PlaneInsomniac: yes, last weekend i did some number crunching. And i think it's amazing how long the loop ways via DXB are. This whole "DXB-world-hub-idea" is only competitive with very low cost operation. Yes, it's ideally located for connecting the indian subcontinent with north amercia, europe and africa. But nothing more.
everything else is a bubble, esp. in an environment of rising fuel prices.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:47 pm

very nicely done. minor typos regarding "than" vs. "then" but a great piece nevertheless.
 
LaoLao
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:48 pm

@mogandoCI: sorry, i'm not native
 
lhcvg
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
+ enormous investment in Dubai as a whole, and for Indian/Pakistani/other carriers to remain total basket cases. Any of that changes and things could get real ugly, real quick for EK/EY/QR.

That's a great point - who's to say these South Asian carriers won't start to gain their footing? Plus, if one or more of the Central Asia "Stans" carriers make a go of things (I seem to remember at least one trying to get into Star) that could hurt too.
 
G500
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:52 pm

who will win?

Any Gulf carrier (Emirates, Etihad, Qatar) would beat any European, Australian, Canadian or U.S airline because they're not constrained by contracts and/or unions... Do you see Emirates' Flight Attendants going on strike? NO

So who will win? EK

[Edited 2012-09-11 08:03:57]
 
KFlyer
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:53 pm

Something seems wrong with the last image. EK CASK (or seat miles if you prefer) is not so low nor is LH so high. Nor is there a so high difference between the yields. IIRC, EK Yield/RPK (not RPM) is around 9 cts while LH is about 11 cts.
It is not really very fair to call EK a low cost carrier. SQ, 9W etc have much lower CASKs (about 1cts lower).
The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:57 pm

I think DXB+EK has 3 distinct advantages :

1. NA/Europe to India (where LH is panicking)
2. Kangaroo Route (where QF panicked and hit the surrender button)
3. Far East Asia to South America
 
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lightsaber
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:39 pm

First, nice analysis.

IMHO, there will be competition. No 'win.' LH and EK will both be around for decades. But LH is constrained by limited expansion. I've pointed out multiple times that EK's (and QR's/EY's) growth was facilitated by lack of European hub expansion. FRA is only expanding a little. Where is the additional runway (or two) at MUC? As Indonesia, Malaysia, and Thailand (among others) expand their middle classes, how will LH add new cities to their route map? How will LH maintain frequency to have superior connections?

Part of this is driven by demand for a TATL NEO/MAX. When that happens (much money is being spent to make it happen), then how will FRA expand to take advantage of the opportunities? The mid-east hubs with the currently proposed NEO/MAX will easily open up more of Europe.

I do expect EK to enter more West African markets. But that will be with Asian feed that only marginally competes with LH.

If EK really does have a 14% lower break-even load factor (despite lower fares, which I doubt its that high), than they will grow. EK has done a good job of keeping their aircraft highly utilized. That cuts costs.

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 1):
Very interesting analysis. Is it yours? It makes me question the long-term sustainability of EK's business model, which depends on a very low cost base. As the fleet and staff age

Why do you say that? EK's fleet is leased. It isn't going to 'age' very much.
A343s are leaving the fleet this year.
A332s are slowly leaving the fleet and will disappear once enough A350s arrive.
The 773 leases expire in 2014
The first 77Ws will, per Tim Clark, leave in 2015 (to be replaced by new 77Ws).
That only leaves the 77A/77E and A345 subfleets to 'age.'

Since EK depreciates on a 14 year depreciation schedule, the 77As and 77Es should sell at a profit whenever EK decides to remove them from the fleet. Since 777s are known to age well, EK will probably rotate them out of the fleet with the A350 deliveries. Probably around when they return the 773s to GECAS as the maintenance economics will become worse with such a small sub-fleet of engines.

So that only leaves the A345 for EK to dispose of. Right now those aircraft are 9 years old (circa 2003). They will need D-checks in ~2014 (they will have transitioned from a 10 year to 12 year D-check cycle, so I guess 11 years, but that is just a SWAG). At that time I expect EK to take the depreciation hit and scrap them. Since the A345s should have a scrap value in the $5M to $8M range, I see EK taking a hit of about $21M per aircraft at that time or $210M or more than twice the cost of the D-checks. However, EK must be losing $25M per year for the subfleet in maintenance and fuel costs (vs. the 77W), that it is a hit EK eventually must take. The D-check just seems the obvious time. EK is profitable enough to take that hit in one year.

So what basis do you have on their aircraft aging? Yes, the aircraft are well utilized by EK, but that is just part of the leasing deal.

As to the staff, EK will always be able to have much more efficient work rules.

Quoting KFlyer (Reply 8):
Something seems wrong with the last image.

It includes a bunch of LH short haul flying which sharply increases the CASM.

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AsoRock
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting laolao (Reply 3):

You're missing the point. You've made conclusions that the Emirates business model isn't sustainable and that Dubai's geographic positioning is over rated or not competitive afterall? That's from Lufthansa's vantage point yes. But the full truth is that the Gulf region is situated roughly in the center of the world's emerging economies, the BRIC countries mainly (Brazil, Russia, India and China). If you are traveling from Beijing and flying to say Nigeria, or from Sao Paulo to Mumbai, or say Australia to Italy, then Dubai is by far the best transit point in saving time.

Add to that a stagnant or shrinking EU economy and a not so rosy outlook, Dubai's Emirates looks set to capitalize on the points I mentioned above, serving high-growth economies. It's probably going to be the worlds largest airline in the next decade. Quite achievable, given the data and amusing also considering people were laughing when Emirates ordered A380s, asking where these giant aircraft will fly. Its certain 90 of them will be flown regularly and full to points all around the globe !
 
jfk777
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting AsoRock (Reply 11):
You're missing the point. You've made conclusions that the Emirates business model isn't sustainable and that Dubai's geographic positioning is over rated or not competitive afterall? That's from Lufthansa's vantage point yes. But the full truth is that the Gulf region is situated roughly in the center of the world's emerging economies, the BRIC countries mainly (Brazil, Russia, India and China). If you are traveling from Beijing and flying to say Nigeria, or from Sao Paulo to Mumbai, or say Australia to Italy, then Dubai is by far the best transit point in saving time.

Dubai is ideally placed as a hub for anything from the UK to Australia & Japan and China to Southern Africa. Brzail to anything east of Dubai work well too. From the USA to the Middle East and India works too, but to Asia the Pacific works better.
 
mcogator
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:18 pm

There isn't any advantage when traveling from the Eastern US to SE Asia. I can fly either way, and the total trip time will be roughly the same.

Random Date: Nov-6 through Nov-13


Route: MCO- KUL


AA. $1552, total trip time depart/return 31.25,28.45
EK. $1664, 26.25, 30.1
LH. $3400, 34.3, 33.5


Route: MCO-BKK

DL: $1392, 28.15, 25.11
EK: $1496, 24.4,28.45
LH: $2118, 30.25, 30

To Bangkok I would fly DL just for the miles, but if that wasn't a concern for me I would probably go with EK because of their newer planes.
“Traveling – it leaves you speechless, then turns you into a storyteller.” – Ibn Battuta
 
Rara
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:15 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 9):
3. Far East Asia to South America

Not really an advantage for DXB though. East Asia to South America is halfway round the world, you could connect at any airport with flights to both regions. It's more lack of a (location) disadvatage than actual advantage.

Quoting AsoRock (Reply 11):
You're missing the point. You've made conclusions that the Emirates business model isn't sustainable and that Dubai's geographic positioning is over rated or not competitive afterall? That's from Lufthansa's vantage point yes.

He explicitly did an LH-EK comparison, so... yes, from Lufthansa's vantage point indeed. That's the whole point of the analysis. Obviously nobody is going to choose LH over EK when flying Cairo to Mumbai, but that's not LH's business model either. The question was, is DXB better located than FRA for serving the markets LH has traditionally been strong in.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 13):

There isn't any advantage when traveling from the Eastern US to SE Asia. I can fly either way, and the total trip time will be roughly the same.

Time-wise perhaps, because of better connections. Still if you fly MCO to BKK via DXB you're going to fly some 800 kilometers more compared to going via FRA. That fuel has to be paid for. Right now it's obviously no problem for EK, but it could theoretically be a factor in the future.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
BommerJan
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:08 am

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 4):
very nicely done. minor typos regarding "than" vs. "then" but a great piece nevertheless

.... and "it's" becomes "its", unless you are abreviating "it is/it has"..... "its" is actually something completely different from "it's" grammatically:


"It's is a contraction of "it is" or "it has."

It's time to go.

Do you think it's ready?

I read your article - it's very good.

Do you know where my purse is? It's on the table.

It's been a long time.


Its

Its is the possessive form of "it."

That's an interesting device - what is its purpose?

I saw Les Misérables during its initial run.

This stove has its own timer.

The bird lost some of its feathers.

Where is its head office?"

(above examples quoted from http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com/difficulties/its.html)
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:49 am

The ultimate goal of language is to communicate. In that respect, LaoLao succeeded. While I appreciate the goal of helping a non native speaker with the finer points of a particular language, I suggest doing it via pm, instead of on a public thread where, what is probably intended entirely as a good deed, can come off a bit like scolding.

It's like 'loose' used as 'lose'. Do I understand their meaning because of context? Usually. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, especially in this age of the runaway, HAL like machinations of auto correct gone rogue.

As for LaoLao's ability to communicate, I think I understood his very detailed analysis and appreciate it for the work involved and the ideas delivered. It is a hell of a good piece of work on a very interesting and relevant subject.

I would be very interested in this type of comparison with Singapore airlines...or even an airline from every continent. Being much too lazy, I couldn't possibly do it myself but I will gladly read the work of others.
What the...?
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:08 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 16):
The ultimate goal of language is to communicate. In that respect, LaoLao succeeded. While I appreciate the goal of helping a non native speaker with the finer points of a particular language, I suggest doing it via pm, instead of on a public thread where, what is probably intended entirely as a good deed, can come off a bit like scolding.

  

And it's quite interesting to see how many "native" English speaking members on this forum use atrocious English while posting.....
 
GVAJFKflyer
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:35 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
they will have transitioned from a 10 year to 12 year D-check cycle

Really that long ?
 
Burkhard
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:47 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
That only leaves the 77A/77E and A345 subfleets to 'age.'

And the other small subfleet of very small aircraft, the A380s...
 
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Faro
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:38 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 16):

The ultimate goal of language is to communicate.

Indeed, as any linguist will tell you, language without meaning is meaningless. And linguistics, BTW, does not recognise any so-called 'standard' or 'correct' form of any grammar, everything is relative in that department...

Faro
The chalice not my son
 
tayaramecanici
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting laolao (Thread starter):
Some elaboration about the battle between LH and EK:

Brilliant !

Quoting AsoRock (Reply 11):
But the full truth is that the Gulf region is situated roughly in the center of the world's emerging economies, the BRIC countries mainly (Brazil, Russia, India and China).

DUBAI and the ME are located OFF-CENTRE to the RIC among the BRIC.

India shares a border with China on its N-East region and southern Russia lays across the Himalayas, past the stans to the north of India.

The advent of A320Neos and B737Max will create multiple Tier-2 and T-3 city pairs between the 3, bypassing much of the ME hubs.

I have always harped here that EK survives on the India bound traffic or rather Indian-Subcontinent. They are once again desperate to increase their traffic rights into India. http://articles.economictimes.indiat...es-indian-airports-indian-economy, I have no doubts they will manage to secure significant increases in their traffic rights. However it all depends on when do they manage to get these additional seats because they are adding capacity faster than they can deploy on new profit yielding routes, resulting in overcapacity affecting yields in their traditional markets.
To give you an example, i live in LTN. LGW and BHX are equidistance at approx 75mile, LHR is closest at 35mile with most expensive fares. The same factors affect the catchment to the north of England where, NCL lays not far from the GLA and MAN catchments. Last month i was checking the loads on EKs evening dep from BHX at various dates they ranged from lows of 280 going up to 400. The average worked out to 60%, this was during the peak season month of AUG.

EK is basically a catalyst to develop DXB but if the cost of doing so repeatedly burdens the state into debt, then the decision to reduce the debt is a no brainer.
''You are as good as your nearest competitor'' Bob Crandall.
 
sq_ek_freak
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 1):
As the fleet and staff age, as well as with rising oil prices, one has to wonder if they can keep costs at their current level.

You think EK will allow their staff (especially their 12,000 + cabin crew) to age? EK's turnover rate isn't necessarily purely unintentional.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Indian/Pakistani/other carriers to remain total basket cases.

Well based on current trends it will be some time yet before any of them even begin to emerge as true world players. Suppose Jet is the most poised to take this path. At the moment I'd suggest that TK is the biggest threat with the way they've been going.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
Why do you say that? EK's fleet is leased. It isn't going to 'age' very much.

  

Quoting AsoRock (Reply 11):
But the full truth is that the Gulf region is situated roughly in the center of the world's emerging economies, the BRIC countries mainly (Brazil, Russia, India and China). If you are traveling from Beijing and flying to say Nigeria, or from Sao Paulo to Mumbai, or say Australia to Italy, then Dubai is by far the best transit point in saving time.

Anecdotal, I know, but its always interesting to see and hear where people on our flights are transiting to and from.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 16):
The ultimate goal of language is to communicate. In that respect, LaoLao succeeded. While I appreciate the goal of helping a non native speaker with the finer points of a particular language, I suggest doing it via pm, instead of on a public thread where, what is probably intended entirely as a good deed, can come off a bit like scolding.

Agreed.
Keep Discovering
 
hohd
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:49 pm

While they have complete control of the Indian subcontinent traffic, however they cannot push the prices much. Many travellers in that region are price sensitive, once the pricing is out of range, EK will not get their business. However. EK and other middle east carriers are very good in keeping the prices low even on a very short notice, sometimes the fare within 1 day may be the same as 60 days out and they have great one way fares as compared to European or North American carriers.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:55 pm

There is a fallacy inherent in this thread. While LH might be focussed on and batteling EK, the same is not true in reverse. EK is just following their business plan to connect Dubai with as many cities as it can that are capable of filling their planes profitably. EK is not focussed on attacking any other airline, just in connecting population centers with DXB.

EK has a very sustainable classic hub and spoke longhaul business model where the hub is in a very friendly business climate (not unlike SQ's or CX's situation when they were formed, but in a different geographic location). Business is about making money, not about competing with any other single entity.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:55 pm

Who will win depends on whether Star Alliance could score Jet Airways. If they could, LH+9W could be a formidable force. If not, EK has the upper hand.
 
PanHAM
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:02 pm

Excellent work, laolao.

Now, the real headache and challenge for LH is not EK but TK.
TK flies to almost every runway long enough for 738s and has an impressive network from IST. Ethnic traffic pays for the flight and transit is gravy. Emission trading is to IST only, whereas EK has to pay till DXB.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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lightsaber
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 24):
While LH might be focussed on and batteling EK, the same is not true in reverse. EK is just following their business plan to connect Dubai with as many cities as it can that are capable of filling their planes profitably. EK is not focussed on attacking any other airline, just in connecting population centers with DXB.

   EK does compete directly at FRA and MUC, but otherwise this is 'hub bypass.' Ironic eh? Considering how big of a hub DXB is...

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 25):
Who will win depends on whether Star Alliance could score Jet Airways. If they could, LH+9W could be a formidable force. If not, EK has the upper hand.

LH+TK+9W would be a formidable force. However, until India helps facilitate easier connections (via infrastructure and policy), 9W will be handicapped.

Quoting tayaramecanici (Reply 21):
The advent of A320Neos and B737Max will create multiple Tier-2 and T-3 city pairs between the 3, bypassing much of the ME hubs.

Agreed. Yet those same aircraft will expand the ME hubs. DFW didn't go away with the 738/A320 opening up TCON flights. Not every city pair supports P2P. So it will be a mixed market.

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MaverickM11
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:18 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 26):
TK flies to almost every runway long enough for 738s and has an impressive network from IST. Ethnic traffic pays for the flight and transit is gravy. Emission trading is to IST only, whereas EK has to pay till DXB.

I think that highlights perhaps the achilles heal of EK's network--two destinations connected with 380s via DXB are much more likely to be connected nonstop on say a 787 than anything over IST that joins a 738 to another 738 up to a 77W. In other words EK connecting MAN to BKK with 380s could conceivably be a 787 nonstop. HAJBKK over IST however, not so much.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ElPistolero
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting tayaramecanici (Reply 21):
EK is basically a catalyst to develop DXB but if the cost of doing so repeatedly burdens the state into debt, then the decision to reduce the debt is a no brainer.
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 24):
While LH might be focussed on and batteling EK, the same is not true in reverse. EK is just following their business plan to connect Dubai with as many cities as it can that are capable of filling their planes profitably. EK is not focussed on attacking any other airline, just in connecting population centers with DXB.

Rubbish. EK was formed for the sole purpose of putting LH and AC out of business. Don't believe me? Go and read everything those two companies have said in the last 2 years.

  

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 26):
Now, the real headache and challenge for LH is not EK but TK.

Couldn't agree more. TK seems hellbent on using the EK model, albeit with one distinct advantage - its in *A. From what I can tell, it's also slightly more generous than LH in terms of miles for booking classes (70% vs 50% on some discounted classes). Through this, it can potentially attract away milehunting frequent fliers as well as bargain hunters. To top it off, it has a hard product in Y that is significantly superior to LH's. Not sure about the J cabin - I think TK's current J is in line with LH's current J in terms of hard product, but LH's new J is more advanced (not sure what the customer response has been there), though the Y+ cabin could skim away some of LH's higher yielding Y transatlantic traffic.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 27):
EK does compete directly at FRA and MUC, but otherwise this is 'hub bypass.' Ironic eh? Considering how big of a hub DXB is...

DXB is a pretty streamlined hub in comparison to FRA.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
In other words EK connecting MAN to BKK with 380s could conceivably be a 787 nonstop.

Not neccessarily true. As others have pointed out, EK caters mostly to low-yield pax. No reason to believe that segment will pay more to fly a 787 direct. If its price sensitive, it might not be the most viable use of a 787.
 
aeroflop
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 7):
who will win?

Any Gulf carrier (Emirates, Etihad, Qatar) would beat any European, Australian, Canadian or U.S airline because they're not constrained by contracts and/or unions... Do you see Emirates' Flight Attendants going on strike? NO

So who will win? EK

Yes because everywhere outside of EK workers try to fight for their T & C's. They have to defend their lifestyle in the times of cost cutting and parasitic airlines like EK.
If the EK flight attendants go on strike then they will be dismissed the next day. How about working in an environment where you can be let go in an instant? Fearing for you job?

I hope that EK has its day of reckoning sooner rather than later.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:46 pm

Quoting aeroflop (Reply 30):
I hope that EK has its day of reckoning sooner rather than later.

EK and just about every fortune 500 company (make that western multinationals) employ folk in countries with lax labor laws. It happens in every industry.

I don't know where you work, but the moment that day of reckoning come, you might lose money invested in the stock market, dividends, or (worst case) your job.

Welcome to the global economy. EK is only doing what everyone (including the companies that employ some folk on this board) is doing.

FWIW, AC F/As cannot strike etiher. Forget losing their job - they'll probably be liable to the Government too.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:00 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 29):
TK seems hellbent on using the EK model, albeit with one distinct advantage - its in *A.

TK also has the benefit of higher O&D at IST. By establishing new routes from IST, TK will benefit a bit more from O&D that doesn't compete as much with their neighbor hubs. IMHO, TK will have a tougher time growing until the new Istanbul airport (5 runways) opens. Note: All they need is two parallel runways to grow a bit more.

TK's management turned around a money loser and are now competitive. They are now an airline to partner with but also compete with LH.

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LaoLao
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:04 am

Connecting at IST is a mess. I did it twice, and it was very congested. With the current IST airport, i don't see how TK can expand their network.
Are there plans for a new airport?
If yes, TK will really hurt LH, as they have very low CASM and an ideally located hub to connect europe with africa, me and asia.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:31 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 29):

Not neccessarily true. As others have pointed out, EK caters mostly to low-yield pax. No reason to believe that segment will pay more to fly a 787 direct. If its price sensitive, it might not be the most viable use of a 787.

I think that's a misconception--there are streams of high yield traffic that EK needs; they can't survive on garbage flow to India much more than LH/BA/AF. Taking those streams and putting them on nonstops is going to hurt EK, or any hub really.
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deltaflyertoo
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:26 pm

From pax point of view EK is def. cheaper when going from US to India. You can get a $5,000 r/t biz class ticket on EK vs like 8 or 10k on a euro airline.

EK's other advantage is indeed geographic. To add what I didn't see above, to go from US, esp west coast to India is a grueling journey. EK offers option of going all the way through, OR collecting ones self in Dubai before continuing on the next day and arriving in the DAY in India. You go through Europe and due to Europe's location the best you can do is get to India at like 11pm at night (but a lot have like 2AM arrivals). So price aside, EK has a more appealing schedule that by default due to geography the euro carriers can never match.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: LH Vs EK: Who Will Win?

Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:24 pm

EK has lower charges because their fleet is still relatively new. I also believe that people are saying that DXB is the "Worlds Hub" because EK has enormous orders for enormous aircraft. 60+ 77Ws and 60+ A380s to name a few. Those aircraft take time to make and deliver. I doubt that all of that capacity will be used or even needed all at one time. EK may have plenty of room to grow, but they can't be everywhere at once. I for one think those A380s were ordered because EK knew it would take years to have all of them delivered and the later 20ish frames would replace the first 20ish frames; and ordered them all at once (for the most part) to get good deals from Airbus.

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