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av8orwalk
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AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:47 pm

Very sad day for many of my friends at AA. Although they only expect 4,400 of the 11,000 to actually lose their job, it's still a big blow.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...-amr-flights-idUSBRE88H1CQ20120918

Cheers,
Russ MCO

[Edited 2012-09-18 16:49:05]
The safest place to be in an airplane crash is on the ground.
 
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rotating14
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:01 am

I wonder if this has anything to do with ----> Lots Of AA Cancellations Today 9/17 (by ozark1 Sep 17 2012 in Civil Aviation)
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:09 am

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 1):

I wonder if this has anything to do with ----> Lots Of AA Cancellations Today 9/17 (by ozark1 Sep 17 2012 in Civil

They are continuing with a planned outsourcing jobs, including shipping maintenance overseas. Pretty soon, no jobs will be left in the US.
 
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AirAfreak
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:09 am

I know American Airlines is a place of business, however, during the months of Thanksgiving and Christmas???!!!! How un-American! I can only imagine the answers to the old, "What did Santa bring you this year?" And then a reply, "a nice little pink slip with an AA logo stamped onto it!" =[

I wish the salaried executives would share the pain of the Front Line employees and at least make a nice donation to the employees that will be suffering. The Holidays will be very sad, unfortunately, and this news breaks my heart.

I wish all the luck in the world for those affected.

Bon Voyage,

Air Afreak
Korean Air | Excellence in Flight.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:20 am

Looks to me like American Airlines has a well planned operation and is using bankruptcy to the best of their advantage, similar in what Northwest Airlines did when they filled bankruptcy in 2005. Employees beware.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
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rotating14
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:26 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 2):
They are continuing with a planned outsourcing jobs, including shipping maintenance overseas. Pretty soon, no jobs will be left in the US.

I totally respect your profession but what is the root of all of this. I've heard of a wave of pilots calling in sick but I doubt that.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:34 am

Doug Parker is probably sitting in his office right now smiling at the thought of eventually being the hero in all of this. Although all these cuts aren't a shocker it's sad to see what is happening to a great company. I wasn't a fan of the US deal early on but the more and more I see stuff like this it seems it may be the only way to get the company on the right track.
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 5):
I totally respect your profession but what is the root of all of this. I've heard of a wave of pilots calling in sick but I doubt that.

There is no sickout. The pilots are not taking any illegal actions.

See the three LOTS OF AA CANCELLATIONS TODAY 9/17 I have several posts on that thread.
 
WNCrew
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:40 am

Any idea of the breakdown of employee groups who got the notices? FAs, Pilots, etc? Does this mostly apply to corporate jobs or ground employees? Just curious...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
fco110
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:43 am

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 3):
I wish the salaried executives would share the pain of the Front Line employees and at least make a nice donation to the employees that will be suffering.

I know an office in the sales side that just had a complete re org and reduction so not sure this point is valid.
 
commavia
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:53 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 2):
They are continuing with a planned outsourcing jobs, including shipping maintenance overseas.

The vast majority of fare-paying consumers simply don't seem to care where their aircraft is maintained as long as it isn't falling out of the sky.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
Doug Parker is probably sitting in his office right now smiling at the thought of eventually being the hero in all of this.

Wouldn't be the first time. He was able to enjoy much the same benefit at USAirways - he wasn't there for the massive concessions wrung through two rounds of bankruptcy in as many years, but he was certainly able to utilize them to the fullest extent and take at least partial credit for the financial results they contributed to.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
I wasn't a fan of the US deal early on but the more and more I see stuff like this it seems it may be the only way to get the company on the right track.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree or disagree with you, but you do realize that Parker's term sheet to the TWU reportedly included more layoffs than AA is now planning, right? AA says today - at least as of now - they expect 4,400 involuntary layoffs from the TWU-represented workgroups; Parker's number was 4,900.

The unfortunate (for TWU members) truth was that TWU-represented workgroups, particularly maintenance and fleet service, were inevitably going to get hit hard under either the AMR or USAirways scenarios, since, like with the pilot scope, these were some of the most glaring areas where AA's labor contracts were so far out of line with the industry. The contracts of some work groups - especially the flight attendants - have little impact on the strategic direction and overall business model of the company, and thus they were able to truly try and improve their contract between AMR and USAirways, but for groups like the pilots and especially the mechanics, there was realistically only so much improvement they could get out of Parker relative to what Horton already put on the table.

The TWU continues to insist that it is cheaper to overhaul a jet in Tulsa than El Salvador or Asia, but airline after airline has concluded differently, to the point where AA was literally the single only airline of any substantial size in the U.S. still doing all (or even the majority) of its own overhauls.

Much like the uncompetitive scope and longhaul provisions built into the APA contract, these were some areas that simply were going to be addressed one way or another regardless of who the unions were making the deals with (Horton or Parker).
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:58 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 10):
The vast majority of fare-paying consumers simply don't seem to care where their aircraft is maintained as long as it isn't falling out of the sky.

Understood. Not referring it to an AA issue, but a USA issue. You won't be able to buy a ticket when your job is outsourced. If we eliminate all the skilled jobs in this country, then what. I believe it was Henry Ford who stated, he must pay his people enough to buy his products.

On a secondary note, you may want to talk with some folks who are flying aircraft with outsourced maintenance. Some is quite good, others.... I have had a number of FAA inspectors in the jump seat who are quite concerned about this topic. They do not have enough people to sufficiently inspect many maintenance companies in foreign lands.

[Edited 2012-09-18 18:00:04]
 
airliner371
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:03 am

Quote:
Pretty soon, no jobs will be left in the US.

This is what makes me angry, out source is fine but why does it have to be out of America...

Quote:
I wish the salaried executives would share the pain

One good thing Jeff Simisk did at CO was give up all of his salary until Continental made a profit. Why can't Horton do this? Because he's a snob.
 
commavia
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:32 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 11):
If we eliminate all the skilled jobs in this country, then what.

We aren't eliminating all the skilled jobs in this country. There are still plenty of skilled jobs in this country - they just aren't necessarily in the same places they were 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Times, and economics, change. The U.S. no longer has a comparative economic advantage in some fields anymore. Airline mechanics seems to be one of them. It's no different than how, 100 years ago, the U.S. had a comparative advantage in textile manufacturing. Today? Not so much. When was the last time you saw a garment factory in New York? That didn't lead to mass unemployment - it just meant that jobs moved to other places where U.S. labor is competitive.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 11):
On a secondary note, you may want to talk with some folks who are flying aircraft with outsourced maintenance. Some is quite good, others.... I have had a number of FAA inspectors in the jump seat who are quite concerned about this topic. They do not have enough people to sufficiently inspect many maintenance companies in foreign lands.

Trust me - you're preaching to the choir.

I personally do (did) like the idea that AA jets have been maintained by AA mechanics on AA payroll. That's not because of any jingoism or xenophobia - I have no doubt that there are plenty of perfectly competent, capable aviation mechanics worldwide maintaining the rest of the jets at the rest of the world's airlines. My larger concern is, indeed, the relatively lesser amount of oversight, and the perception - by me at least - that the FAA seems to have in some ways come down harder on AA than other vendors in the U.S. or abroad (exhibit A: the MD80 wire-spacing AD issue). But the larger issue that matters the most to me is that AA employees have a closer personal connection to the maintenance of those jets: by and large, AA employees put their own children and families on those planes, and thus, I suspect, they are more likely to take good care of them.

But, again, all that being said - none of that seems to matter enough for the vast majority of people to change their buying behavior. And as such, AA has no choice but to compete.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:39 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
But, again, all that being said - none of that seems to matter enough for the vast majority of people to change their buying behavior. And as such, AA has no choice but to compete.

As a capitalist, I completely understand each and every point you made. The bottom line, is that the USA will never be competitive with the likes of Outer Slobovia. They majority of the airlines are not outsourcing their maintenance to companies of the caliber of Lufthansa Technik. But if business and labor cannot find a compromise, and if jobs continue to leave the USA, things are going to head in the wrong direction. With all the manufacturing being outsourced, one can realistically make the argument that it goes beyond the average guys job and involves the overall security of our country. We are in trouble, this is just a drop in the bucket.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 14):
The bottom line, is that the USA will never be competitive with the likes of Outer Slobovia.

Well, actually, if the Reserve currency status was removed from the US dollar today, the US would be the most competitive country in the world. The US doesn't actually create much value at all in the global economic system - they just move it around at whim.

Then again, the inflation would leave most of the population bankrupt in hours. So not the greatest idea  

And as long as reserve currency status is maintained and oil is still the main source of the world's energy, the US will never be competitive. It's a trade-off which comes with getting everything for free.
#AvGeek
 
OB1504
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:59 am

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 8):
Any idea of the breakdown of employee groups who got the notices? FAs, Pilots, etc? Does this mostly apply to corporate jobs or ground employees? Just curious...

In MIA/FLL, at least, about 47% of the jobs lost were fleet service clerks/crew chiefs. The overwhelming majority were airport positions.
 
aluminumtubing
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:59 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 15):
And as long as reserve currency status is maintained and oil is still the main source of the world's energy, the US will never be competitive. It's a trade-off which comes with getting everything for free.

True statement!
 
commavia
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:05 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 14):
The bottom line, is that the USA will never be competitive with the likes of Outer Slobovia.

Not in airline maintenance. In other areas, the U.S. is and will be.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 14):
They majority of the airlines are not outsourcing their maintenance to companies of the caliber of Lufthansa Technik.

And, the most jaded among us would say they don't need to. Statistically, air travel appears to be getting progressively safer each year. If planes aren't falling out of the sky, then how are airline management teams going to justify paying more to do work in high-cost places as opposed to low-cost places? Regardless of how any of us feel about that overly-simplistic logic, it is nonetheless the ultimately underling logic driving these decisions

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 14):
But if business and labor cannot find a compromise, and if jobs continue to leave the USA, things are going to head in the wrong direction.

Jobs leave the U.S., but many jobs also come to the U.S. It's a constant flux. 20 years ago, how many jobs did the internet support in the U.S.? Not many. Today? Hundreds of thousands, directly or indirectly. The industries and skillsets that will generate employment for thousands if not millions of Americans 20 years from now may well not have even been invented yet.

As such, I can't get too concerned about it, and I certainly don't expect "business and labor" to do anything more than they already are doing: business trying to maximize value for shareholders, and labor trying to maximize its compensation. That dynamic tension is healthy.

In the airline industry, as said in another thread, the airline mechanic unions have failed to preserve the jobs of their members and prevent the off-shoring of thousands of their jobs first and foremost because they were simply unable to demonstrate the value of their own labor. Why should airlines pay more, and thus why should airline passengers pay more, to fly on a place maintained in Tulsa as opposed to El Salvador? (I know, I know, some don't think Tulsa is more expensive, but playing along with the "conventional wisdom," right or wrong.) Airline mechanic unions have yet to answer that question, and thus nobody - airlines, politicians, or customers - have done much of anything to stop this trend of sending jets to lower-cost vendors in the U.S. or other countries for maintenance.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 14):
With all the manufacturing being outsourced, one can realistically make the argument that it goes beyond the average guys job and involves the overall security of our country.

While I understand and respect the point you're making - probably the majority of Americans would express much the same opinion - I think, respectfully, that's a bit alarmist. Don't you think people said the exact same thing 50 or 100 years ago about the big industries then? It was all downhill after the U.S. was no longer competitive in [insert-long-since-gone industry here]. Agriculture, textiles, cars, silicon chips, and on and on - all areas where U.S. labor is no longer competitive with foreign labor or, in many cases (more and more lately), with machines. And yet the sky didn't fall, the country's security wasn't compromised, and society didn't collapse. I suspect that, by and large, the same is true here. But, alas, it doesn't make that transition any less painful for the human beings and families effected - and I am certainly not trying to deny or minimize that.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:07 am

Any jobs lost at corporate?
 
spiritair97
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:15 am

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 3):

I agree that it is horrible timing.

In my mind, the REAL UN-Amiercan thing is outsourcing jobs. I mean, I know that lots of companies do it, but AMERICAN Airlines. Come on now, really?
 
spiritair97
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:17 am

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 3):

I agree that it is horrible timing.

In my mind, the REAL UN-Amiercan thing is outsourcing jobs. I mean, I know that lots of companies do it, but AMERICAN Airlines. Come on now, really?
 
gizmonc
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:20 am

I saw a former TWA employee I worked with before AA, he has 34 years seniority...Been part time for years since AA took over STL. He got his notice today that after 34 years he is getting laid off , he is 7 months from his 62 birthday. I am so glad that when AA bought TWA I got laid off. I dont have to deal with this MESS. We are heaving that the
STL pilot base is getting cut in April 2013 and flights out of STL will probably go down to only service to ORD, DFW and MIA.
 
spiritair97
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:25 am

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 22):

That sucks about your co-worker. So close, yet so far away, I guess.

As for the STL base cut, I bet the service to LGA will be spared, too, though probably with some frequency cuts.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:46 am

We are outsourcing and automating jobs away why would unemployment improve? ......not everyone can work in the service industry in this country. I am old enough to not be effected and settled in a career luckily but the poor people graduating college dont have a chance in this economy. which is why so many of them are brewing starbucks and working at whole foods with legit college degrees and making it so hard on everyone else. The unemployement among youth in italy, greece, and spain is headed our way i hate to think its just how long it takes since all we do it outsource and automate jobs away.

Quoting Bobloblaw (Reply 19):
Any jobs lost at corporate?

good question i dont know.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:22 am

Those who complain about outsourcing have no concept of macroeconomics. There is a reason that outsourcing happens, and there is a reason that everyone in the USA can afford such a high standard of living and such high salaries.

No, the reason is not education (although education plays a part). The main reason is reserve currency status. This status means that the rest of the world must earn US Dollars in order to buy oil, which is necessary for just about everything. In return for giving away jobs, USA gets to print money. Hence, everything bought in the USA is essentially free - it's subsidized by every single country in the whole world.

I assure you that India would love to take over reserve currency status and send all the IT jobs back. Sadly, our navy isn't powerful enough to displace the US Navy and take occupy the Gulf.
#AvGeek
 
PHX787
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:31 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 25):
Those who complain about outsourcing have no concept of macroeconomics. There is a reason that outsourcing happens, and there is a reason that everyone in the USA can afford such a high standard of living and such high salaries.

   Not to mention the political climate and the amount of taxes levied in the USA. It's driving stuff away from the US.
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BEG2IAH
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:53 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 25):
Those who complain about outsourcing have no concept of macroeconomics.

I would strongly suggest that you check what mAcroeconomics is all about. Outsourcing happens because of companies' bottom line, i.e., they decrease expenses and maximize their net income. This is a very mIcroeconomic issue.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 25):
The main reason is reserve currency status. This status means that the rest of the world must earn US Dollars in order to buy oil, which is necessary for just about everything. In return for giving away jobs, USA gets to print money. Hence, everything bought in the USA is essentially free - it's subsidized by every single country in the whole world.

As long as you hold any foreign currency in your pocket you are financing that country's inflation. Simple as that. I'm trying but I really can't understand your apparent link between outsourcing and money printing. You are not comparing apples to apples. But then I absolutely can find the link between printing money and reserve currency argument, although you just mixed up too many things here.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
usflyer msp
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:54 am

I was looking at the job positings for a friend here at MSP and I did notice that American Eagle was hiring "Station Agents". MSP is currently a mainline station so suspect that it is about to be outsourced (at least below the wing).
 
aeroblogger
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:08 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 27):
I would strongly suggest that you check what mAcroeconomics is all about. Outsourcing happens because of companies' bottom line, i.e., they decrease expenses and maximize their net income. This is a very mIcroeconomic issue.

If you ask why companies outsource, that is certainly a microeconomic issue. To vastly oversimplify, companies outsource because labor is cheaper in foreign countries. This isn't in dispute...

What I was talking about is why is labor cheaper in other countries. That is a macroeconomic issue...

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 27):
I'm trying but I really can't understand your apparent link between outsourcing and money printing. You are not comparing apples to apples. But then I absolutely can find the link between printing money and reserve currency argument, although you just mixed up too many things here.

it's hard to do justice to the topic I was discussing in a few sentences. Let me try to make it simple:

1) USD is the world's reserve currency, and all oil must be denominated in dollars.
2) Since all countries need oil to serve their energy needs, all countries need USD.
3) In order to earn USD, countries must maintain a trade surplus with the USA.
4) The resulting trade deficit means that USA's jobs and manufacturing must go overseas (outsourcing). In order to attract this outsourcing, manufacturing and labor costs internationally must be lower.
5) Since every country is trying to earn dollars and the USA has the ability to print dollars, the effects of US' inflation is spread around the world. Since the US' value creation base is very limited, the entire world is essentially subsidizing the purchases made in the US market. On the other hand, if this didn't happen, the rest of the world would not earn USD and therefore would not have access to energy.

Hope this was clearer?
#AvGeek
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:23 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 29):
Hope this was clearer?

All I can tell you as a professional economist is that your points 3, 4, and 5 have zero theoretical or empirical support. Things just do not work the way you describe them. On point #1, reserve currency has nothing to do with oil trade being in USD. These are very different animals (holding reserves and trading). As I said you mixed things up. The only point I would agree to a certain extent is #2.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
aeroblogger
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:09 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 30):
On point #1, reserve currency has nothing to do with oil trade being in USD.

Oil trade being in USD is a major reason that USD is reserve currency... I agree that reserve currency status isn't the reason oil is traded in USD.

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 30):

All I can tell you as a professional economist is that your points 3, 4, and 5 have zero theoretical or empirical support.

I haven't gotten a chance to learn economics the way it is taught and practiced in the US, but I'm curious as to what your disagreements are. I can find cites in literature here in India which would back up the observed behaviors I mentioned without much difficulty.
#AvGeek
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:58 am

Now we are outsourcing our a.net economic advice to india lol jk  
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:15 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 31):
I haven't gotten a chance to learn economics the way it is taught and practiced in the US, but I'm curious as to what your disagreements are. I can find cites in literature here in India which would back up the observed behaviors I mentioned without much difficulty.

The economics science should be the same wherever it's studied. I studied finance and economics in a very non-US setting for 6 years, then studied industrial organization and microeconometrics in the US for another 6 years. This doesn't even matter. You confuse the basics. Your point #3 shows fundamental misunderstanding of how international trade and finance work. Then you build a whole new theory that I never saw in my 15 years of teaching and consulting on economic issues. Some of your points could be valid, but you mix things that cannot be mixed, i.e., they cannot be in the same equation.

Can we get back to topic?

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 32):
Now we are outsourcing our a.net economic advice to india lol jk

Need to qualify the vendor first.  
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
milesrich
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:32 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 11):
Understood. Not referring it to an AA issue, but a USA issue. You won't be able to buy a ticket when your job is outsourced. If we eliminate all the skilled jobs in this country, then what. I believe it was Henry Ford who stated, he must pay his people enough to buy his products.

On a secondary note, you may want to talk with some folks who are flying aircraft with outsourced maintenance. Some is quite good, others.... I have had a number of FAA inspectors in the jump seat who are quite concerned about this topic. They do not have enough people to sufficiently inspect many maintenance companies in foreign lands.
Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
We aren't eliminating all the skilled jobs in this country. There are still plenty of skilled jobs in this country - they just aren't necessarily in the same places they were 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Times, and economics, change. The U.S. no longer has a comparative economic advantage in some fields anymore. Airline mechanics seems to be one of them. It's no different than how, 100 years ago, the U.S. had a comparative advantage in textile manufacturing. Today? Not so much. When was the last time you saw a garment factory in New York? That didn't lead to mass unemployment - it just meant that jobs moved to other places where U.S. labor is competitive.
Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 14):
As a capitalist, I completely understand each and every point you made. The bottom line, is that the USA will never be competitive with the likes of Outer Slobovia. They majority of the airlines are not outsourcing their maintenance to companies of the caliber of Lufthansa Technik. But if business and labor cannot find a compromise, and if jobs continue to leave the USA, things are going to head in the wrong direction. With all the manufacturing being outsourced, one can realistically make the argument that it goes beyond the average guys job and involves the overall security of our country. We are in trouble, this is just a drop in the bucket.

The above is why free trade is such a joke. If we pass laws that require FAA inspections of major overhauls, they will have to be done here if the FAA does not assign inspectors to work in foreign countries. If all US carriers are required to work under these rules, it will not be anti competitive.

Everyone pays lipservice to outsourcing and moving jobs offshore, however, when it is your job that is moved to China, then you will sing a different tune. As aluminumtubing said, one day there will not be enough people in the US to buy tickets.
 
bjorn14
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:45 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 16):
In MIA/FLL, at least, about 47% of the jobs lost were fleet service clerks/crew chiefs. The overwhelming majority were airport positions.

It's around 1500 jobs-

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/ripti...american_airlines_lays_off_140.php
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:51 pm

Quoting Bobloblaw (Reply 19):
Any jobs lost at corporate?

Don't know the answer, but I would bet that many positions at corporate were eliminated.
 
comorin
Posts: 3858
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 29):
1) USD is the world's reserve currency, and all oil must be denominated in dollars.
2) Since all countries need oil to serve their energy needs, all countries need USD.
3) In order to earn USD, countries must maintain a trade surplus with the USA.
4) The resulting trade deficit means that USA's jobs and manufacturing must go overseas (outsourcing). In order to attract this outsourcing, manufacturing and labor costs internationally must be lower.
5) Since every country is trying to earn dollars and the USA has the ability to print dollars, the effects of US' inflation is spread around the world. Since the US' value creation base is very limited, the entire world is essentially subsidizing the purchases made in the US market. On the other hand, if this didn't happen, the rest of the world would not earn USD and therefore would not have access to energy.

Hope this was clearer?

Aeroblogger, good try but time to turn off the afterburners....
 
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NWAESC
Posts: 1389
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:43 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 8):
Any idea of the breakdown of employee groups who got the notices? FAs, Pilots, etc? Does this mostly apply to corporate jobs or ground employees? Just curious...

Numbers cited by the TWU as possibly affected:

AMT's: 5,445
GSE/Facility mech's: 1622
Ramp: 3477
Fuelers: 75
Stock clerks: 540
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
AM744
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:05 pm

RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:31 pm

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 22):
He got his notice today that after 34 years he is getting laid off , he is 7 months from his 62 birthday.

Wow. Does this have any bearing on his conditions for retirement? I'm not familiar with US labor law.
 
swaluvfa
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri May 17, 2002 1:59 pm

RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:47 pm

Does anyone know if the TWA flight attendants that were recently called back to work will now be affected by this recent cut? Thanks....
 
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william
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:03 pm

What happens when the majority of the American public refuses to pay higher fares to travel from point A to point B? Lets be honest, some fares are the same as they were 20 years ago. When that happens something has to give, and sad to say its labor in this instance.

And to those on this board that laud praise upon UA and DL for their financial performance, keep in mind they outsourced and laid off many while they were in bankruptcy. To be lean and mean one has to make hard decisions that AA are making.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:04 pm

It is a sad day for all of the great AA employees and to have it occur right around the holidays makes it even more unfortunate. AA management gives the appearance of not really caring about public opinion or appearances. All best wishes to these fine professionals and lets hope they are recalled quickly.

Unhappy front line employees leads to poor customer service and that is never a good thing for an airline. It is a lot harder to rebuild a reputation than it is to trash one. Continental did a good job of it as quoted in the book "From Worst to First." It take a titanic shift in attitudes and corporate philosophies to make it work and that has to start at the top with leaders who inspire rather than react.

All best wishes to our dedicated colleagues at AA as they endure these tough times.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3620
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 2):
Pretty soon, no jobs will be left in the US.

False

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 11):
I believe it was Henry Ford who stated, he must pay his people enough to buy his products.

He also said "why should I pay for the whole worker, when all I want is his hands?"

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 14):
The bottom line, is that the USA will never be competitive with the likes of Outer Slobovia.

Definitely not in positions that can be bought as a "Q - Quantity" that is also not location dependent. For example, you can't outsource the maintenance on your Semi-Truck to China, but your Jet you can. Location dependence is what gives Unions their power.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 20):
In my mind, the REAL UN-Amiercan thing is outsourcing jobs.

I always like to ask people a simple question. If there is a non-location-dependent position, what makes an American citizen more deserving of the position than an equivalently qualified Mexican or Canadian person? The assertion that WE deserve more things and a better life than others simply because we were born in a different spot on the globe is the same thing as saying we are "better" people, which is obviously false. Using a regional reference is closer to home so people will usually say nothing, but then they are outraged about the same job going to India or Asia.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 24):
but the poor people graduating college dont have a chance in this economy.

They'll find jobs, don't forget people have been graduating into a poor economy for the last 5 years.
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1741
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:52 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 12):
This is what makes me angry, out source is fine but why does it have to be out of America...

Because it's more efficient overall. $$$$

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 12):
One good thing Jeff Simisk did at CO was give up all of his salary until Continental made a profit. Why can't Horton do this? Because he's a snob.

Integrity.

I think it can be argued that integrity left AA with Bob Crandall. Many of the execs who put AA where it is today, worked under Bob Crandall. Seems they just decided to ride his wave until it came ashore. Well, the shore line is here, but it's covered in jagged rock that requires integrity to navigate.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 34):
If all US carriers are required to work under these rules, it will not be anti competitive.

Really? How will this affect Air Canada, BA, Taca, Virgin Atlantic, V Autralia, Quantas, Aeroflot, Swiss, Iberia, Lufthansa, .................
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
ABQopsHP
Posts: 461
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 10:47 am

RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting gizmonc (Reply 22):

I saw a former TWA employee I worked with before AA, he has 34 years seniority...Been part time for years since AA took over STL. He got his notice today that after 34 years he is getting laid off , he is 7 months from his 62 birthday. I am so glad that when AA bought TWA I got laid off. I dont have to deal with this MESS. We are heaving that the
STL pilot base is getting cut in April 2013 and flights out of STL will probably go down to only service to ORD, DFW and MIA.

Im right there with you guys. Worked for HP/US for 17 years and had to leave and move to be with family, take care of parents. Then when things settled down, I got a job with Expressjet here in CRP. After 5 years with them, our positions were outsourced to Eagle. I saw that as a bad move and did not take that position. Sitting here searching for a job, I think Im washing my hands of the airline industry that I love so much. What a sad day for AA. I have always had heartfelt feelings for the people at TW and AA. I just hope all my old TW friends are doing ok. Take Care all you AA workers, and welcome to the dismal decline of our industry.

JD CRP
ABQ ops, Cactus 202 requesting you order 5 Green Chile Chicken stew for us to p/u on arrival. ;)
 
26point2
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:22 pm

Outsourcing asside I haven't seen any mention of improved service? How will this move help the customer like me?

Even though my call "is very important" I sure don't feel very important.
 
flyfree727
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:11 am

RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting SWALUVFA (Reply 40):
Does anyone know if the TWA flight attendants that were recently called back to work will now be affected by this recent cut? Thanks....




No, these announcements were regarding TWU. The recalled fa's are under APFA.. We have been told repeatedly there will be no fa furloughs. Also, as of today, over 1900 fa's have elected to take the buy out package.

AA ORD
 
ckfred
Posts: 5181
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 3):
I know American Airlines is a place of business, however, during the months of Thanksgiving and Christmas???!!!! How un-American! I can only imagine the answers to the old, "What did Santa bring you this year?" And then a reply, "a nice little pink slip with an AA logo stamped onto it!"

It's actually very common to lay off people towards the end of the fiscal year, as the budget for the next year goes into effect. Since most companies are on a calender fiscal year, that's when the lay-offs are implemented. My father once worked for a company that had the government's fiscal year (October 1 to September 30). So, lay-offs took place in mid July to late September. When the company switched to the calender fiscal year, then the lay-offs started taking place in November and December.


Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 6):
Doug Parker is probably sitting in his office right now smiling at the thought of eventually being the hero in all of this. Although all these cuts aren't a shocker it's sad to see what is happening to a great company. I wasn't a fan of the US deal early on but the more and more I see stuff like this it seems it may be the only way to get the company on the right track.

Isn't right sizing the work force to match the increased productivity in labor contracts getting on the right track? No one likes lay-offs, but if you realize that you can do the same amount of work with several thousand fewer employees, you don't have a lot of choice. Otherwise, you wind up like GM, with a lot of employees getting paid to wait around for the market share to increase, so that plants can add a third shift, or a mothballed plant reopens.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 7):
There is no sickout. The pilots are not taking any illegal actions.

I will grant you that the APA is not advocating a sick-out. But that isn't to say that individual pilots aren't decding to call in sick.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 14):
But if business and labor cannot find a compromise, and if jobs continue to leave the USA, things are going to head in the wrong direction. With all the manufacturing being outsourced, one can realistically make the argument that it goes beyond the average guys job and involves the overall security of our country. We are in trouble, this is just a drop in the bucket.

Believe or not, we are seeing jobs returning to the U.S. from overseas. Wages in India and China are rising much faster than in the U.S. It's much easier to oversee work in the U.S. And you don't have to deal with the time difference and long, expensive flights to check up on a plant.

To that extent, I am curious as to why AA is outsourcing widebody maintenance to Hong Kong. If someone at HQ is having an issue and needs to kick a few butts in person, he has to fly all of the way to Hong Kong, probably on CX with a connection at LAX. If the problem is at TUL, it's just hop on a plane to TUL, resolve the problem, and possibly be back in the Metroplex to watch Jay or Dave.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Issues Layoff Notices To 11,000 Employees

Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 48):
I will grant you that the APA is not advocating a sick-out. But that isn't to say that individual pilots aren't decding to call in sick.

Every pilot I know who is out sick has verification of a Dr visit. We are doing this to protect ourselves if we call in sick. It is against the FAR's to fly sick and a Dr's diagnosis is proof of that. While the average person can go to work with something as minor as congestion, a pilot cannot. I know the paid liar (company spokesperson) is trying to put the blame on the pilots. As far as spokespersons here at AA are concerned, I have had them comment on issues I have personally had on the line and wasn't even sure if I was the Captain or even worked for the same airline. They were saying things so off the mark it wasn't even funny. I was directly involved and new to the letter what happened.

I would also like to add, that if there was an ounce of proof that the pilots are calling in sick when not sick, I can assure you all the AA lawyers would be tripping over themselves to get an injunction.

[Edited 2012-09-19 11:26:03]

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