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oneskyjet
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:46 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:07 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 238):
Our VP of Flight Operations has a statement out to the pilots. It says, and I quote "Fly aggressively safe". That statement comes from a senior member of AA management. Now, how would you interpret that? If I don't follow his order, then am I not insubordinate. One thing I learned about hierarchy as an officer in the military and a Captain in the airline environment, is that to not follow rules and directives from superiors, can get you fired. Would you be willing to defend me pro bono? I am not trying to be facetious here. It's a legitimate question.

Aggressively safe does not equal stupidly safe.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:14 pm

Quoting Reply 250):
Aggressively safe does not equal stupidly safe.

Actually, DeltaMD90 selected that quote of mine. And I couldn't agree more with your statement in general. However, are you privy to exactly what is going on, or are you just armchair quarterbacking from the outside. You either have not been reading any of my postings, or you are just choosing to disregard them because you don't believe anything I have been saying. That is certainly your privilege and if that is the case, there is not much I can say.

The AA company spokesman (and spokesmen are nothing but corporate spinners and always have been) says something, and people believe it without any supporting documentation. AA claimed there was a sickout. They provided no statistics. APA did, and the Dallas Morning news printed it. AA hasn't been saying that anymore.

And by definition, stupidly safe would not be safe.

[Edited 2012-09-30 06:18:26]
 
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pu
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:08 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:39 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 244):

and taking care of the investors portfolio

Who are the investors of AMR at this point and who put them there? Seems to me mgmt failed the old owners, fired them, and replaced them with new owners chosen by mgmt (since mgmt acquired the debt from the creditors and therefore indirectly chose the creditors cmte)

Quoting par13del (Reply 248):

restoring confidence of the investors

The investors / onwers of the company had their control wrestled from them by management that persuaded a disloyal BOD to declare bankruptcy.
.
Stockholders, aka the owners of the company?...Their interests have been the most disserviced of all the stakeowners - management eliminated it. So this "serving the needs of the investors" freshman business class economics mantra could use some adjustment.
.
A case could be made that AMR took on all that huge debt, new plane orders etc... precisely to fleece the stockholders of any residual claim and put the new AA firmly in the hands of the owners picked by management....to include mostly creditors and management itself.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 243):

I will post this lesson of "reality" on the pilots bulletin board in operations. We had NO idea how this was supposed to work. Thanks for the information.
.
The number of times you see "What a business/economics textbook says on page 32" about running a company is indeed humorous - thanks for adding comic relief.

Pu
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:44 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 251):
The AA company spokesman (and spokesmen are nothing but corporate spinners and always have been) says something, and people believe it without any supporting documentation.
Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 251):
AA claimed there was a sickout. They provided no statistics. APA did, and the Dallas Morning news printed it. AA hasn't been saying that anymore.

The earliest public statement from AA that I could find merely mentioned sick calls as one of "a number of factors" affecting the delays, along with maintenance issues.

The meaning of the sick call statistics published by the Dallas Morning News were not entirely clear, because - unless I missed later, additional data - they showed the number of pilots out on the 18th of every month for the last year. That doesn't really tell us much about the immediate trend in the post-abrogation period, which is really the period in question. Nonetheless, I take the APA entirely at their word when they say that a "sickout" en masse is not happening. I take their word over the company's implications on that one.

Nonetheless, the additional statistics later published by the Dallas Morning News since then paint a pretty clear picture, and it isn't one the APA likes. The statistics show a dramatic, and immediate, drop in on-time performance within 24 hours of the new AA terms being released out. On September 12, AA ran a 77.9% on-time operation, and one day later, after the terms were announced, AA was at 46.5%. AA later stated - and I have no idea if they are lying or not - that the level of maintenance calls that led to mechanics finding no actual issue has nearly doubled in the last few weeks.

So obviously AA pilots are changing their behavior en masse, and right after the new terms. The only real question now is why - and the company and the unions obviously have different theories. The APA statements about an old fleet, tight schedule and utilization and planning seem a little implausible unless the APA is claiming that all of those problems magically appeared on September 13, 2012. The less motivated maintenance workforce and the pilots' "uncertainty" with no CBA protection, seems more plausible (at least to me). Maybe APA should stick to those explanations.

Based on the latest blog post from Terry Maxon at the Dallas Morning News blog, it seems he is beginning to find all of the various back-and-forth accusations, denials and alternative explanations a bit farcical and comical as well.

[Edited 2012-09-30 06:45:28]
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:48 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 253):
Based on the latest blog post from Terry Maxon at the Dallas Morning News blog, it seems he is beginning to find all of the various back-and-forth accusations, denials and alternative explanations a bit farcical and comical as well.

If all this wasn't so serious, I would find it quite comical as well. But then again, I have a very twisted sense of humor.  
 
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Revelation
Posts: 25598
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:29 pm

Quoting B377 (Reply 241):
Yet the Pilots LBFO was much better than the ones given to the AFPA and TWU. And your coworker pilots voted it down. The poor gate agents and management, didn't even get a chance to vote. They just accepted what was necessary to save the company.

The reality of their situation is different. They are much easier to replace and the weak economy leaves them not many if any other options.

Quoting B377 (Reply 241):
All the pilots, flight attendants, mechanics and all other employees have the responsibility to support these senior officers efforts, regardless of what direction that they are taking the company.

I think you are missing the basic fact that the pilots just do not trust management, and they feel management has done little to earn that trust, and they feel management has not been negotiating in good faith.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:44 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:11 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 234):
But is your certificate any more on the line at AA than at another bankrupt carrier?

Yes because other carriers had contracts in bankruptcy. This is the first time a 1113C motion has been granted against a pilot group. In every other case the concessionary TA passed, which meant that a contract was in place that protected the pilots.

In the AMR bankruptcy case the TA DIDN'T pass and the judge tossed the contract by granting the 1113C motion. Essentially 50 years of collective bargaining was thrown out the window with one decision. There is no contract anymore.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 234):
As a matter of contract law, that's correct. As a matter of bankruptcy law, the picture is murkier, and it's not inconceivable that there might be situations that implicate some of the common law public policy exceptions to employment at will.

The fact that it appears murky to you should be an indication of why the pilots are being so cautious. If you thought it was a possibility you could lose your driver's license forever for having a broken tail light, wouldn't you make sure you get it fixed before driving?

That's essentially what is going on here. These guys have no confidence that the company would go to bat for them in the event of a broken tail light incident. The FAA can levy some ridiculous fines for even minor things like forgetting to sign a page in the aircraft maintenance log. ExpressJet recently got fined over $8,000 for each flight an aircraft did with out a signed maintenance log page ($400,000 for 49 flights). The work was done, it just wasn't signed off but the FAA still levied the fine.

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...rier-atlantic-southeast/70000709/1

If you were a 30 year AA Captain tipping the pay scale and you cost a company like AMR $8,000 because you didn't verify all the paperwork was in order they wouldn't hesitate to fire you. AMR hates its employees and they'd view getting rid of a 30 year Captain as a major cost saver. With out a contract they could easily do it since there is no more protection.

If you go to apply to a different company you'd have to check the yes box for, "Have you ever had any FAA violations," at which point they'd toss your resume in the trash. The uncertainty of what could happen is too much for these guys since its their livelihoods on the line. This was one of the consequences the company knew or at least should have known about when they pursued the 1113C
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 256):
The fact that it appears murky to you should be an indication of why the pilots are being so cautious. If you thought it was a possibility you could lose your driver's license forever for having a broken tail light, wouldn't you make sure you get it fixed before driving?

That's essentially what is going on here. These guys have no confidence that the company would go to bat for them in the event of a broken tail light incident. The FAA can levy some ridiculous fines for even minor things like forgetting to sign a page in the aircraft maintenance log. ExpressJet recently got fined over $8,000 for each flight an aircraft did with out a signed maintenance log page ($400,000 for 49 flights). The work was done, it just wasn't signed off but the FAA still levied the fine.

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/p...rier-atlantic-southeast/70000709/1

If you were a 30 year AA Captain tipping the pay scale and you cost a company like AMR $8,000 because you didn't verify all the paperwork was in order they wouldn't hesitate to fire you. AMR hates its employees and they'd view getting rid of a 30 year Captain as a major cost saver. With out a contract they could easily do it since there is no more protection.

If you go to apply to a different company you'd have to check the yes box for, "Have you ever had any FAA violations," at which point they'd toss your resume in the trash. The uncertainty of what could happen is too much for these guys since its their livelihoods on the line. This was one of the consequences the company knew or at least should have known about when they pursued the 1113C

Powerful stuff. Good points. I guess I already know the answer, but why on earth doesn't the APA say essentially that (perhaps minus the "AMR hates its employees" statement)? That would get the point across.
 
mcg
Posts: 1141
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:55 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 256):
The fact that it appears murky to you should be an indication of why the pilots are being so cautious.

How do you explain a 40+ minute taxi from runway to gate at DFW? perhaps not sure about speed limit?

Sorry, I don't mean to sound overly negative, but I just have a hard time feeling sorry for a bunch of guys who earn (per a post somewhere on a.net) $180K. I understand that the new contract terms are no fun and you'd all really prefer the old contract, but life doesn't always work that way. And I think it's shameful to drag your customers into this dispute.
 
mcg
Posts: 1141
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 220):
Quoting mcg (Reply 219):
Quoting mcg (Reply 219):
Actually, maybe not. Any employer/labor group relationship defined by 'cloud of hate and disdain' is not sustainable. Maybe it's better to just face the music and move on. It'd be painful for everyone in the short run, but I think the air transport system would adapt pretty quickly and the pilots could go find better jobs.

Again, a wee bit short sighted, don't you think. I think it much more adult to solve a problem than to run away a coward.
Men solve problems, cowards run away.  

If we disagree on that, I don't know what to say.

Does this sound like a viable business?:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/op...tlantic-trip-turns-kafkaesque.html

I'm just not sure the problems at AA are fixable to anyone's satisfaction.
 
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PITingres
Posts: 1346
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:59 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:12 pm

Quoting norcal (Reply 256):
AMR hates its employees and they'd view getting rid of a 30 year Captain as a major cost saver.

I think you made some very good points, except for this one. Who is this "AMR" who hates their employees? I'm being serious here; you can work with real people to try to change things, but you can't work with a personified abstract. "AMR" is an abstract; the pilots make up a much larger fraction of "AMR" than management does, I'm betting. If a significant fraction of pilots and other employees are basing their actions on "AMR hates us", I seriously doubt that this is going to go anywhere other than Chapter 7. Maybe those employees should just quit now and get it over with?
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
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N62NA
Posts: 4501
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 218):
Thanks. Sometimes, I just think about aborting my posts and just going around. But I have had several private messages asking me to continue posting.

Well, here is a public message to you: Please stick around and keep posting!  
Quoting Revelation (Reply 204):

12:09 departure, so about 1.5 hrs late, twice the seven day average.

Yep, all because of an air conditioning vent not working in one of the galleys of our not-at-all-ancient AA 772 that had been sitting at the gate for at least 4 hours prior to boarding us pax.

I do want to say that our flight attendants were superb on this flight, both during the delay and also providing inflight service (though full disclosure, I was in F and this was AA's 3 class transcon service). In fact one of the flight attendants who was taking care of us in the cabin came up to each of us shortly before landing and personally thanked each of us for flying with AA today.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 247):
A coffee maker is another story. And even if there is a problem with the wiring issue of a coffee maker or hot plate, it could simply be deactivated and placarded inoperative.

That's what our Captain said on AA 277 yesterday (Saturday) that they eventually ended up doing. Why this couldn't have been done in the 4 hours that the plane was sitting at the gate before they loaded us pax aboard for a 2 hour "sitting on the plane at the gate" episode, is beyond me.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 246):
To me, writing up a coffeepot and taking a 2 hour delay to fix it is not giving 100 percent to passengers.

Or, in my case, an air conditioning vent in one of the galleys.
 
b377
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:51 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 243):
I will post this lesson of "reality" on the pilots bulletin board in operations. We had NO idea how this was supposed to work. Thanks for the information.

Good start. Now encourage your fellow pilots to follow it.

Then after the Courts deny all appeals, after AA comes out of bankruptcy without a contract with the APA, you can once again petition the NRLB to declare an impasse on any new contract. When that happens, and history proves it get them concur is very difficult, you will be free to strike.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 261):
That's what our Captain said on AA 277 yesterday (Saturday) that they eventually ended up doing. Why this couldn't have been done in the 4 hours that the plane was sitting at the gate before they loaded us pax aboard for a 2 hour "sitting on the plane at the gate" episode, is beyond me.

It's completely beyond me as well. It makes no sense. I have had problems where I couldn't figure out why things took so long. I can refuse and aircraft I feel is unsafe, but I can't take an aircraft that does not a write up signed off. (assuming it is not flight crew placardable). This doesn't sound like the Captains doing.

I saw where a 777 had an issue last night. Apparently something was found by the FO on the walk around. That is done between 45-60 before departure on average. The aircraft was taken out of service for a ferry flight to Alliance for repairs. That certainly was not a pilot caused problem. It was found in proper time and there was no way the aircraft would have been taken out of service had it not been deemed a necessity by maintenance. So, there is so much more here than meets the eye.

I just spoke with another FO who found the same thing on two separate aircraft in a row. He told the Captain who wrote it up both times. He said great, we wrote up the same thing two flights in a row, and someone will ask us questions. I know this guy, he is not the least bit a ":trouble maker". I asked him what it was. I said if the FAA was there would you have written it up. He said absolutely. I said you did the right thing. He said he knows that, but I just doesn't need to be hassled. So, I wish I could put my finger on what the heck is going on, but I can't.

Quoting mcg (Reply 258):
How do you explain a 40+ minute taxi from runway to gate at DFW? perhaps not sure about speed limit?

The other day, I had to wait 6 minutes on the taxiway, as ground control told me to hold until another airline's aircraft finished it's push so I could taxi into the alley way. I ended up arriving late. I made a PA to keep the passengers informed as to exactly what was happening. As some jerk deplaned he told me I was an idiot and that I lied just to have an excuse to arrive late. I could have explained it's a little difficult to just stop on an active taxi way for no good reason, but decided to just smile and say have a nice day.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:08 pm

Quoting B377 (Reply 262):
Good start. Now encourage your fellow pilots to follow it.

Once again, excellent advice. I am on top of it. I just don't know what i/ we would do with out all the excellent advice provided.

It's truly amazing most of us pilots are able to get out of bed and make it to the airport on time. Maybe you could provide a wake up call for us as well.

I will need one for 0430 tomorrow morning!
 
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N62NA
Posts: 4501
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:26 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 263):

It's completely beyond me as well. It makes no sense. I have had problems where I couldn't figure out why things took so long. I can refuse and aircraft I feel is unsafe, but I can't take an aircraft that does not a write up signed off. (assuming it is not flight crew placardable). This doesn't sound like the Captains doing.

I don't know if this is just an AA thing or all the airlines do it this way, but if you're going to have an aircraft sitting around for a few hours, why not have it checked out during that time, instead of waiting until all the pax have been loaded on the plane and making us sit on the plane at the gate for 2 hours? These kind of delays do not engender a good image in the mind of the pax and in the end, it's all about customer service as most pax (well, OK, not we who live in MIA) do have other options that are as good as AA in terms of price and ability to get to their destinations nonstop or with 1 connection - and those other airlines these days have a much better on-time record.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 263):

The other day, I had to wait 6 minutes on the taxiway, as ground control told me to hold until another airline's aircraft finished it's push so I could taxi into the alley way. I ended up arriving late. I made a PA to keep the passengers informed as to exactly what was happening. As some jerk deplaned he told me I was an idiot and that I lied just to have an excuse to arrive late. I could have explained it's a little difficult to just stop on an active taxi way for no good reason, but decided to just smile and say have a nice day.

First, I'm sorry that some passenger told you that you were an idiot. He has no idea what was going on and he was totally out of line.

Second... I noticed something else unusual on my AA 277 MIA-LAX yesterday. We left from gate D21 (north side of the airport, usual departure runway is 8R which is on the north side of the airport as well), but for this flight, we went all the way round to the south side of the airport and used runway 9. As we made the turn to head away from 8R, I noticed only 2 other flights queued for takeoff on 8R. Did I confront the Captain at the end of the flight? Of course not, I have no idea why we used runway 9. HOWEVER, with the 2 hours of sitting on the plane for the air conditioning vent incident to then follow that up with a rather out of the ordinary departure runway to add another 10 minutes to the delay does seem a bit odd.

[Edited 2012-09-30 10:31:58]
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:37 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 265):
I don't know if this is just an AA thing or all the airlines do it this way, but if you're going to have an aircraft sitting around for a few hours, why not have it checked out during that time,

That is an outstanding question. I have been asking myself that same question for the last several years. Actually though, I know the answer. They are so short personnel they can't accomplish that. Why do you think AA had all those fines. I can assure you, it wasn't the pilots. It certainly wasn't the mechanics. We have one hell of a group of mechanics at AA. When a certain VP took over, I supported his actions to streamline maintenance and to make the process more effecient. He cut through all the fat. The problem, was he did not stop there. He cut through muscle and eventually into the bone marrow. We did not have the spare parts and aircraft were no longer checked on many overnights. Our mechanics would have loved to have been able to do their jobs. It is not uncommon to have to have seat cushions replaced due to spills, etc. I have been in DFW a number of times where they didn't even have spare seat cushions or covers and we had to block off a seat to a fare paying revenue passenger. Or if they did, we had to wait for them to be sent over from the hangar. These are routine items frequently needed that should be stored on the ramp This in not uncommon. It frustrates the hell out of us, but no one will listen to our debriefs. They are the experts and we are just the hired help. I have spoken directly to the chief pilots to point out some glaring details. They agree, but only shrug. They aren't listened to either.

Sorry, that was a long bloviating response to a simple question.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 265):
Second... I noticed something else unusual on my AA 277 MIA-LAX yesterday. We left from gate D21 (north side of the airport, usual departure runway is 8R which is on the north side of the airport as well), but for this flight, we went all the way round to the south side of the airport and used runway 9. As we made the turn to head away from 8R, I noticed only 2 other flights queued for takeoff on 8R. Did I confront the Captain at the end of the flight? Of course not, I have no idea why we used runway 9. HOWEVER, with the 2 hours of sitting on the plane for the air conditioning vent incident to then follow that up with a rather out of the ordinary departure runway to add another 10 minutes to the delay does seem a bit odd.

Again, I am truly sorry your flight did not go as planned. This whole AA thing for whatever reason makes me sick to my stomach. And I have a strong stomach.

Obviously, not being there I have no idea as to the specifics. When taxing out to the 8/12 departure area, I always brief my FO on the departure plan and procedure for both the 8 and 12 runways ahead of time. At least according to my experience, they tend to plan you on a east departure and then at the last minute, change it to 12 or vice versa. I don't get to MIA often, but that is my experience anyway. At the last second you have to change the "box" (FMC) and in some cases flap settings and speeds. That takes a few minutes, as it has to be loaded and verbaly checked and verified by both crew members. And also, with a change in flap settings, a portion of the TakeOff check has to be redone. I know the northside versus the southside is a little bit different, but due to inbound traffic, they may have wanted your flight on a right downwind departure versus a left downwind for flow. Again, I wasn't there, but those are normally the reasons why. While I will certainly request a certain runway due to weight and balance and performance isssues at times, 99% of the time we go where they send us. My guess, is that after a 2.5 hour delay, the crew just wanted to get the heck out of there and to their layover hotel as well.
 
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par13del
Posts: 10610
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:00 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 252):
(since mgmt acquired the debt from the creditors and therefore indirectly chose the creditors cmte)

Ahh no, management did not acquire the company debt, they are put in charge of managing the debt.

Quoting pu (Reply 252):
The investors / onwers of the company had their control wrestled from them by management that persuaded a disloyal BOD to declare bankruptcy.

Management persuaded the BOD that the only way to maintain their investment was to wipe out the bulk of it in chpt.11?
If that is true one has to wonder why folks are so against the pilots when they say that AA management sucks and cannot be trusted, if they conned the BOD imagine what they would / have done to the minions below them?

Quoting pu (Reply 252):
Stockholders, aka the owners of the company?...Their interests have been the most disserviced of all the stakeowners - management eliminated it. So this "serving the needs of the investors" freshman business class economics mantra could use some adjustment.

Management filed chpt.11 after the BOD approved it, if it was not approved the entire team would now be in jail. A chpt.11 fling is not a simply thing that management can just up and do when they feel it is in their best interest.
A number of the prior investors are still in the game, they may have lost some money but the gamble they are taking is that X lost today via chpt.11 will equal X+Y in profit later after restructuring.
In any event, management is still working for the investors, whether past or present, the only difference is that there is now a third party - judge - who reviews most of the decisions of the BOD before their staff (management) can implement.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 25598
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:30 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 265):
OWEVER, with the 2 hours of sitting on the plane for the air conditioning vent incident to then follow that up with a rather out of the ordinary departure runway to add another 10 minutes to the delay does seem a bit odd.

Well, on the good news side of the equation, it seems your crew made up for 40 minutes of the delay while airborne!   
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 258):
I just have a hard time feeling sorry for a bunch of guys who earn (per a post somewhere on a.net) $180K.

Actually, I have been earning more than that. But I am quite senior. The further you go down the list, the less you make obviously. And FO's certainly don't make that much. But of course, they are just a bunch of gear jerkers right?

May I ask how much you make? Oops, I apologize, that was tacky. How much you make is none of my business.

[Edited 2012-09-30 11:40:28]

[Edited 2012-09-30 11:53:22]
 
mcg
Posts: 1141
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 7:53 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 263):
Quoting mcg (Reply 258):
How do you explain a 40+ minute taxi from runway to gate at DFW? perhaps not sure about speed limit?

The other day, I had to wait 6 minutes on the taxiway, as ground control told me to hold until another airline's aircraft finished it's push so I could taxi into the alley way. I ended up arriving late. I made a PA to keep the passengers informed as to exactly what was happening. As some jerk deplaned he told me I was an idiot and that I lied just to have an excuse to arrive late. I could have explained it's a little difficult to just stop on an active taxi way for no good reason, but decided to just smile and say have a nice day.

Seems like you handled the delay well and I apologize on behalf of the passenger. The pilots on the flight in question made no PA and simply taxied very slow.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5198
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:01 pm

Yesterday, I called the AAdvantage Gold Desk to inquire about a flight that I have next month, #1689 BOS-ORD. It seems to cancel a lot, often a day ahead. I was trying to see if the flight is scheduled to go on 10/14.

The agent wasn't able to say that it was going that day and suggested I check every two or three days for updates.

I mentioned in passing that I was having dinner with a 737 Captain, and that the operational issues would probably come up as a topic of conversation.

She said, and I quote, "If I were you, I wouldn't buy him a drink."

Ouch!

I responded that I thought he had a trip the next day, so he probably wasn't drinking.

Still, the CSAs have probably taken a lot of flak from passengers whose flights have been delayed or cancelled, and they probably are more than a little irritated with the pilots.

It would be interesting to know how the other work groups at AA feel about the pilots and what they are alleged to be doing to disrupt operations.

By the way, I mentioned the conversation with the CSA to the 737 Captain. Both he and his wife laughed, and we actually didn't discuss the state of affairs at AA.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 271):
Seems like you handled the delay well and I apologize on behalf of the passenger.

Thanks.

Quoting mcg (Reply 271):
The pilots on the flight in question made no PA and simply taxied very slow.

I can't comment on the slow taxi, as I obviously wasn't there. Unfortunately, the FAA regulations prohibit us from making PA's while moving. It's part of the sterile cockpit rule while moving on the ground and flying below 10,000. However, I think it is inappropriate to not make a PA once stopped if the delay is excessive.

I will add, that if I see a long line waiting for takeoff, I will definitely taxi much slower than normal. To waste fuel to just taxi faster to get to the point I have to stop and wait is unproductive. Kind of like slowing down early approaching a red light. However, once stopped in line I would most definitely make a PA explaining the delay. I find that 99% of the passengers handle delays and maintenance issues so much better when kept informed. No one wants to be kept in the dark. It is obviously common courtesy.
 
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pu
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RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 268):
Ahh no, management did not acquire the company debt, they are put in charge of managing the debt

No.
Who brought the company into debt if not management?

Quoting par13del (Reply 268):

A number of the prior investors are still in the game, they

Who, exactly?
I believe creditors are the only ones effectively "in the game" and I don't count bondholders as investors in terms of what the BOD is supposed to protect. Neither allegedly have a voice on the board, but are now in control of the company. Managment has every incentive to take on more debt if bankruptcy is their plan as it leaves them in control and eliminates bothersome shareholders.

Quoting par13del (Reply 268):
they conned the BOD imagine what they would / have done to the minions below them?

They are doing it.
.
Bankruptcy shields the BOD from most shareholder suits against them. Thus as corporate performance declines, boards start seeking to protect themselves more than the shareholders. Bad management needs a cooperative or sleeping board to remain bad as long as AMR has been. Bankruptcy protects both the BOD and managment as they both wrestle the company from its true owners, the shareholders, inorder to CYA from litigation and ensure mgmt gets a post- bx payday.

Pu

[Edited 2012-09-30 13:21:56]

[Edited 2012-09-30 13:23:06]
 
crAAzy
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RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:23 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 236):

They are going far beyond what they need to. They are truly being vindictive by going as far as they are. They are punishing the pilots for voting no. If not, why would they offer gate gate agents a 5.5% 401k match and give nothing to the pilots. I am a capitalist. I understand very well how business works. Trust me, these guys are going for the jugular.

Of course they are. This should come as no surprise to the pilots and it should come as no surprise to any of the union groups that the further they push AA into a loss making situation, the more more vindictive management is going to be. Unfortunately, the pilots are in a position where AA's management can do the most damage to them because it has gotten to the point where their contract has now been thrown out the window.

I said it before and I'll say it again, I really feel for the employees at AA, but AA's management team is on a role and will do/cut/slash everything it can get away with during BK because they DO NOT and WILL NOT want to file again in a few years. The more the employee groups try to fight back and jeopardize the company's plan to exit while in BK the more damage AA's management can (and likely) will do to the work groups. It doesn't matter what the pilots (or anyone else) think the ARE doing - the perceptions, operational issues, and loss of customers is just going to give AA (and some of it's creditors) an excuse to be even more vindictive.

It's clear almost every AA employee hates Horton and Co. and wants new management, but it's Horton's team that is still calling the shots and making the decisions. It's the management team they really have nothing to lose at the end of this "game" and if they feel like they are going to be out of the picture anyway then like their predecessors they will fall on their sword - that's what they get paid to do. Unfortunately, the Excalibur for the pilot group is their pension and I wouldn't put it past Horton to drop the pilot pensions completely as his final screw you to the pilots.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 275):
Of course they are. This should come as no surprise to the pilots and it should come as no surprise to any of the union groups that the further they push AA into a loss making situation, the more more vindictive management is going to be. Unfortunately, the pilots are in a position where AA's management can do the most damage to them because it has gotten to the point where their contract has now been thrown out the window.

All true. I am not that worried about the vindictive part too much. Yes, they can do what they want. For now. There will be a consensual agreement sometime, or this place will absolutely disintegrate and AA will no longer exist as we now know it.
That, I have no doubt. This is AA putting the squeeze on the pilots trying to get us to capitulate and cave. Nothing earth shattering here. At some point in the future, this will boil into something that will be uncontainable. I am not speaking for me personally, because I can afford to leave. Not that I want to. I have just seen the anger brewing and escalating. My understanding is that the creditors are watching very closely. Apparently they invited the APA to meet with the UCC's labor sub-committee.

As I have said before, there is enough blame to go around. Either the UCC, AA and APA compromise for a win win, or it will be a lose, lose. Hopefully, they can see what is happening in Washington DC and see that a lack of compromise gets everyone nowhere.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 276):
For now. There will be a consensual agreement sometime,

The trouble is that this nonsense has already done damage to passenger perceptions and will do more damage every day it wears on. Of all companies, AA should know that. After all, they benefited from UA's travails in the summer of 2000 for a decade or more.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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par13del
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RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:49 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 272):
It would be interesting to know how the other work groups at AA feel about the pilots and what they are alleged to be doing to disrupt operations.

I think we all know the answer to that one, the other labour groups have not had the power of flight crew and as such have been broken a long time ago. AA was able to get agreements with most other groups but the pilots, so I'm betting relations with other staff was bad prior, look at the pink slips already announced before the slow down, thousands but none of them pilots, so do you think resentment existed prior to the slowdown or what?
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
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RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:54 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 277):
The trouble is that this nonsense has already done damage to passenger perceptions and will do more damage every day it wears on. Of all companies, AA should know that. After all, they benefited from UA's travails in the summer of 2000 for a decade or more.

I am not referring to what is supposedly happening now. That is in my humble opinion AA running a very poor airline. I am talking about some point in the future. I am not saying I necessarily agree that a meltdown sometime in the future is a good idea. I just know many guys are financially preparing themselves for a possible D-day. In my almost 30 years, I have NEVER seen this group so upset. It is truly a powder keg. I sat my wife down, and said to pray for the best, but to brace for the worse. I pray daily it does not come down to this.

[Edited 2012-09-30 15:56:37]
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
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RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 240):

Here's my question, and this probably cuts to the heart of the matter...why does AMR Corp. (and, for that matter, nearly every other unionized company in the country) have to have multiple bargaining units. To me, that's a large portion of the problem.

Just at AA, you have the APA (pilots), the TWU's seven different bargaining units (dispatchers, fleet service, stores, ground school instructors, simulator technicians, mechanics, and technical specialists), and the APFA (flight attendants). What you essentially have, in your scenario, is nine different bargaining units bargaining with the company separately for the same slice of the pie, and since you guys were the last ones to an agreement, you guys get the short end of the straw. Unfortunately, what that means is the nine of you can't work together to say to the company "look, what can we do to make the pie bigger", and that 401(k) match would be identical (with respect to wages) across the entire company, the benefits would be identical (and proportionate) across the entire company, and the entire company would be covered under one contract, and you (the Aluminum Tube Aircraft Workers of America) can work together to make the company better, rather than the status quo, which doesn't work for any heavily-unionized airline in the country except for Southwest (and probably doesn't work for very many heavily-unionized-but-fragmented companies of any type on this planet).

Just the thinking of this one outside-the-Metroplex person...

Aluminumtubing, just wanted to ask my question again. Wasn't sure if you saw it the first time, after I posted at 1:30 AM local.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 280):
Aluminumtubing, just wanted to ask my question again. Wasn't sure if you saw it the first time, after I posted at 1:30 AM local

I am sorry I failed to respond. I did see your post and was distracted by another.

Having one bargaining unit is impossible with groups so diverse as what we have here at AA.

The most simple example, is that different organizations have different trade groups. You have the NRA representing gun owners and the tobacco lobby representing the tobacco industry. I just picked two entities at random, no hidden meanings here. Both entities represent their specific interests efficiently, or so we would hope. Having one organization representing both would be a disaster.

In a capitalist society, it is normal for those with a higher skill set or skill that is in higher demand to command a better pay package. It takes years to properly train a pilot and for that person to gain the experience. Sure, according to the Federal Air Regulations, you can hire someone with relatively little experience. So, if you want to have low time pilots in the cockpit, you can do that with a much lower cost. If you want experienced pilots with thousands of hours, you need to pay more. To agree to pay a constant 401k contribution level to all may seem fair, but is not capitalistic in nature (in other words follow the law of supply and demand) nor realistic. So, each group on the property has it's own union to represent its interests to the best of their ability. You would most certainly pay the Lawyer more than the receptionist.

And please understand when I say a person with certain skills should command a better compensation package, I don't intend to infer that the pilots are better people or are better human beings just because we have a certain skill set. Quite the contrary. Each and every employee provides a needed skill set to help get the job done.

Others here may disagree with me and I may get clobbered, but that is my explanation in a fairly simplistic manner.

[Edited 2012-09-30 16:27:56]
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
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RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:39 pm

Point taken, and I understand on that point, but why does the TWU bargain on behalf of seven separate unions, when they are all basically bargaining against each other? That makes absolutely no sense, and it seems to be an arrangement that, to me, benefits no one, and hurts everybody.
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:53 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 282):

Point taken, and I understand on that point, but why does the TWU bargain on behalf of seven separate unions, when they are all basically bargaining against each other? That makes absolutely no sense, and it seems to be an arrangement that, to me, benefits no one, and hurts everybody.

You have a good point. That has been a bone of contention for some time. I know the mechanics for example have wanted to split off for some time for just that reason. They have a very important skill set and obviously have different interests. So do the dispatchers and sim instructors for that matter. So, I am somewhat surprised that they haven't split up. I truly don't have an answer for that. Maybe there is a a.net who is a TWU member that could better answer that.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:09 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 282):
but why does the TWU bargain on behalf of seven separate unions, when they are all basically bargaining against each other?

A question many TWU members regularly ask.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 282):
That makes absolutely no sense, and it seems to be an arrangement that, to me, benefits no one, and hurts everybody.

Incorrect.

It benefits AA enormously, particularly in the case of the mechanics, because AA is able to play the overhaul/base off the line and get more out of each of them. This is one of the main things that has worked against the mechanics at AA, and why they are, in general, compensated less than mechanics at some other airlines. AA's legacy competitors - including Delta, United and USAirways - all used bankruptcy in the last decade to essentially eliminate in-house overhauls, outsource the bulk of that work to third-party vendors (some in foreign locations) and, in turn, return some of that cost savings to the remaining (substantially-reduced) maintenance workforce in the form of raises, etc. AA, with the not-so-tacit approval and assistance of the TWU, has kept - even with the newly-ratified Chapter 11 CBA - relatively more of its overhaul work in-house than those competitors, but in so doing has progressively driven the average compensation per-mechanic down. The TWU and the base mechanics in Tulsa have, repeatedly, voted for these measures as a way to preserve jobs (which to at least a certain extent, it has), but the result has been more dues-paying TWU members, but lower pay for the entire mechanic workgroup.

Because Tulsa alone accounts for such a huge portion of the entire AA TWU-represented mechanic workgroup, Tulsa can outvote the line stations every time, and as you might imagine, that has not, historically, benefited the line mechanics all that much. It has, many would argue, benefited AA, however.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:27 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 284):
It benefits AA enormously, particularly in the case of the mechanics, because AA is able to play the overhaul/base off the line and get more out of each of them. This is one of the main things that has worked against the mechanics at AA, and why they are, in general, compensated less than mechanics at some other airlines. AA's legacy competitors - including Delta, United and USAirways - all used bankruptcy in the last decade to essentially eliminate in-house overhauls, outsource the bulk of that work to third-party vendors (some in foreign locations) and, in turn, return some of that cost savings to the remaining (substantially-reduced) maintenance workforce in the form of raises, etc. AA, with the not-so-tacit approval and assistance of the TWU, has kept - even with the newly-ratified Chapter 11 CBA - relatively more of its overhaul work in-house than those competitors, but in so doing has progressively driven the average compensation per-mechanic down. The TWU and the base mechanics in Tulsa have, repeatedly, voted for these measures as a way to preserve jobs (which to at least a certain extent, it has), but the result has been more dues-paying TWU members, but lower pay for the entire mechanic workgroup.

I knew someone could provide a better answer regarding the TWU!
 
YYZAMS
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:54 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:49 am

I didn't book on AA for my holiday because of this, even though it was cheaper. I am in support of the pilots, however, in the end I only have a limited number of days to fly out and can't risk the hassle.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14925
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:01 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 279):
I am not referring to what is supposedly happening now.

I don't think there's anything "supposed" about the operational issues that are happening now. They have even made it in to the mainstream media; I heard a story about it on NPR last Wednesday or Thursday and have read a couple of pieces in larger newspapers as well.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ckfred
Posts: 5198
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:01 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 278):
I think we all know the answer to that one, the other labour groups have not had the power of flight crew and as such have been broken a long time ago. AA was able to get agreements with most other groups but the pilots, so I'm betting relations with other staff was bad prior, look at the pink slips already announced before the slow down, thousands but none of them pilots, so do you think resentment existed prior to the slowdown or what?

When I talk to union workers outside of the airline industry, it's definitely like the Three Muskateers---all for one and one for all. You don't see carpenters thinking that the plumbers are angling for a better deal, so we will cross their picket line.

By the same token, you may find at other carriers that the various unions are all part of the AFL-CIO, including ALPA.

My father was in labor relations for 7 years. You may find that one work group takes a contract for various reasons, but they will support another work group trying to get a better deal. After all, everyone is fighting the same common enemy, management.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 287):
I don't think there's anything "supposed" about the operational issues that are happening now. They have even made it in to the mainstream media; I heard a story about it on NPR last Wednesday or Thursday and have read a couple of pieces in larger newspapers as well.

I can't disagree the operation is not doing well to say the least. Where we disagree, is whether the pilots are to blame or whether AA is mismanaging the airline. I have learned years ago that what is in print is not necessarily factual. And as for NPR, well....

[Edited 2012-09-30 18:05:53]

[Edited 2012-09-30 18:08:15]
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14925
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RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:11 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 289):
Where we disagree, is whether the pilots are to blame or whether AA is mismanaging the airline.

Who is to blame doesn't make a lick of difference to me when I go to book a flight. It saddens me equally whether it's a job action, mismanagement or some combination of the two (which I think is the most likely, FWIW).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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N62NA
Posts: 4501
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RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:18 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 266):
That is an outstanding question. I have been asking myself that same question for the last several years. Actually though, I know the answer. They are so short personnel they can't accomplish that. Why do you think AA had all those fines. I can assure you, it wasn't the pilots. It certainly wasn't the mechanics. We have one hell of a group of mechanics at AA. When a certain VP took over, I supported his actions to streamline maintenance and to make the process more effecient. He cut through all the fat. The problem, was he did not stop there. He cut through muscle and eventually into the bone marrow. We did not have the spare parts and aircraft were no longer checked on many overnights. Our mechanics would have loved to have been able to do their jobs. It is not uncommon to have to have seat cushions replaced due to spills, etc. I have been in DFW a number of times where they didn't even have spare seat cushions or covers and we had to block off a seat to a fare paying revenue passenger. Or if they did, we had to wait for them to be sent over from the hangar. These are routine items frequently needed that should be stored on the ramp This in not uncommon. It frustrates the hell out of us, but no one will listen to our debriefs. They are the experts and we are just the hired help. I have spoken directly to the chief pilots to point out some glaring details. They agree, but only shrug. They aren't listened to either.

Sorry, that was a long bloviating response to a simple question.

I appreciate the response very much!  


Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 267):
Again, I am truly sorry your flight did not go as planned. This whole AA thing for whatever reason makes me sick to my stomach. And I have a strong stomach.

Obviously, not being there I have no idea as to the specifics. When taxing out to the 8/12 departure area, I always brief my FO on the departure plan and procedure for both the 8 and 12 runways ahead of time. At least according to my experience, they tend to plan you on a east departure and then at the last minute, change it to 12 or vice versa. I don't get to MIA often, but that is my experience anyway. At the last second you have to change the "box" (FMC) and in some cases flap settings and speeds. That takes a few minutes, as it has to be loaded and verbaly checked and verified by both crew members. And also, with a change in flap settings, a portion of the TakeOff check has to be redone. I know the northside versus the southside is a little bit different, but due to inbound traffic, they may have wanted your flight on a right downwind departure versus a left downwind for flow. Again, I wasn't there, but those are normally the reasons why. While I will certainly request a certain runway due to weight and balance and performance isssues at times, 99% of the time we go where they send us. My guess, is that after a 2.5 hour delay, the crew just wanted to get the heck out of there and to their layover hotel as well.

And I also appreciate that response very much as well.  


Quoting Revelation (Reply 269):
Well, on the good news side of the equation, it seems your crew made up for 40 minutes of the delay while airborne!


Yes they did! And apparently with some pretty strong headwinds which is even more remarkable.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:22 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 290):
Who is to blame doesn't make a lick of difference to me when I go to book a flight. It saddens me

We are going to have to agree to agree. It saddens me more than you can ever know. I have given almost 30 years to this company. I and my family have invested a lot. And I am willing to continue to give it all I have. And to see folks like you suffering as well makes it even worse. There is a solution. Whether or not it is pursued is beyond your and my control. I have a feeling if it were up to you and I, we could fix this. In fact, I am sure of it. And more than likely in fairly short order.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14925
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:28 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 292):
We are going to have to agree to agree. It saddens me more than you can ever know. I have given almost 30 years to this company. I and my family have invested a lot. And I am willing to continue to give it all I have. And to see folks like you suffering as well makes it even worse. There is a solution. Whether or not it is pursued is beyond your and my control. I have a feeling if it were up to you and I, we could fix this. In fact, I am sure of it. And more than likely in fairly short order.

  
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
mcg
Posts: 1141
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:49 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 292):
There is a solution. Whether or not it is pursued is beyond your and my control.

What do you think the solution is? I just don't see a solution that makes the pilots happy and is economically viable for the company. Thus the 'rub'.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:11 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 294):

It's called maturity and compromise. I know, good luck with that. 
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 21577
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting mcg (Reply 294):
What do you think the solution is? I just don't see a solution that makes the pilots happy and is economically viable for the company. Thus the 'rub'.

What is a viable middle ground? AMR must return to profit. I would be fine with the idea that employees would be paid less with a bonus at the year end out of profits over X%. But only if management bonus were paid last.  
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 277):
Of all companies, AA should know that. After all, they benefited from UA's travails in the summer of 2000 for a decade or more.

So true. The BK hurt AMR a little, these issues will linger...

Quoting ckfred (Reply 288):
After all, everyone is fighting the same common enemy, management.

There is a problem. They are not enemies. They have conflicting economic interests however...

Lightsaber
4 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
tonytifao
Posts: 800
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:22 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:33 pm

Big question here... AA must be losing a lot of money with these operational issues.... how much extra money is AA losing a day? Is there an end insight?
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22112
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RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:45 pm

If I might return to the actual original topic: are the delays letting up?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
tonytifao
Posts: 800
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:22 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:51 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 298):
If I might return to the actual original topic: are the delays letting up?

Exactly! Are there talks going on? Are people willing to work together? Is AA, whoever is to blame, realize their passengers and their reputation are being affected tremendously?
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