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JAAlbert
Posts: 1980
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:43 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:03 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 298):
If I might return to the actual original topic: are the delays letting up?

AA's flight 1520 LAX to MIA - the flagship 777 service has been repeatedly "delayed" today. It was supposed to depart at 10:40 a.m.. As of this post, an announcement has been posted every half hour or so delaying the flight a further 30 minutes.
 
us330
Posts: 3506
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 7:00 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:17 pm

AluminumTubing, just curious if you think that the pilots would be acting this way if new management had come in (not the mere replacing of Arpey by a subordinate--I mean bringing in people from outside the company) and the same contractual terms had been presented to the pilots?
 
tonytifao
Posts: 800
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:22 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:33 pm

This is where AA is annoying. 1520 is delayed but the continuing flight, MIA GRU is still ontime! Lots of courtesy to their pax
 
n471wn
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:23 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:35 pm

anyone who books on American during this slow-down deserves what they get . This is not going to go away.....just heard that Delta is honoring American's status customers.....
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24980
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 298):
If I might return to the actual original topic: are the delays letting up?

The weekend was not as bad for cancels, but ontime performance was weak.

Saturday - 30 cancels - 62% ontime arrivals
Sunday - 23 cancels - 55% OT
Monday - 14 cancels - 63% OT (as of 3pm central)

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 300):
AA's flight 1520 LAX to MIA - the flagship 777 service has been repeatedly "delayed" today. It was supposed to depart at 10:40 a.m.. As of this post, an announcement has been posted every half hour or so delaying the flight a further 30 minutes.

Appears flight pushed ontime - 1041am, but returned with a maintenance issue.
At 1145am they decided to begin reaccommodating pax on other flights.
Pushed second time at 238pm.


Quoting tonytifao (Reply 302):
This is where AA is annoying. 1520 is delayed but the continuing flight, MIA GRU is still ontime! Lots of courtesy to their pax

1520 is a terminator. LAX-MIA only.

If you are asking about flight MIA-GRU 907 that happens to be pending on decision as there is no equipment for it at the moment. Once LAX leaves with an ETA, I guess they will update 907, or swap equipment out.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
audidudi
Posts: 2529
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:35 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 302):
AA 1520 now looks to have been cancelled today as it no longer shows on FlightAware.

Update from FlightAware now shows it took off at 2.57 PDT.

[Edited 2012-10-01 15:26:37]

[Edited 2012-10-01 15:32:02]
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 302):
This is where AA is annoying. 1520 is delayed but the continuing flight, MIA GRU is still ontime! Lots of courtesy to their pax

Yesterday, AA957 MIA-SCL was delayed for 9 hours and the flight departed MIA at 08:45AM! SCL pax are starting to avoid booking flights on AA due to these delays!
 
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LAXintl
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RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:16 pm

1520 is airborne - ETA MIA 2232. Equipment is now planned to continue on 995 MIA-GRU at 2345.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
audidudi
Posts: 2529
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:35 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 302):
AA 907 is now showing a 3 hours departure delay from MIA-GRU. AA 1520 departed LAX at 2.57 PDT for MIA, thus running about 4 hours late.

[Edited 2012-10-01 15:25:23]
 
audidudi
Posts: 2529
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:35 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:22 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 303):

I hope that DL gets to keep some of AA's status customers permanently. As others have said, why would you book on AA at all during this slow-down, unless there are no other options? Good for DL doing a class act!
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 21966
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:31 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 304):

The weekend was not as bad for cancels, but ontime performance was weak.

Saturday - 30 cancels - 62% ontime arrivals
Sunday - 23 cancels - 55% OT
Monday - 14 cancels - 63% OT (as of 3pm central)

Do we know how that compares to the other majors?

Quoting audidudi (Reply 308):
AA 907 is now showing a 3 hours departure delay from MIA-GRU. AA 1520 departed LAX at 2.57 PDT for MIA, thus running about 4 hours late.

Why wouldn't they show the inevitable 4h delay?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:39 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 301):

AluminumTubing, just curious if you think that the pilots would be acting this way if new management had come in (not the mere replacing of Arpey by a subordinate--I mean bringing in people from outside the company) and the same contractual terms had been presented to the pilots?

I am not sure exactly what "acting this way" means. If it is a job action, as I have mentioned earlier, I don't believe the pilots are doing anything wrong. I truly believe the company is so short people and parts they can't keep the operation going properly. I know many on here differ in their opinions, and that's fine.

As far as the pilots excepting the terms of the LBFO if there was different management, I don't think that would have been the only solution. I think for a new contract, there would not be enough votes unless there was a pathway towards an industry standard contract. Pilots are simply professionals who while understanding the economic reality of the situation do not expect to have our careers destroyed. They don't have to be. If a company can't compensate close to the market conditions, maybe they don't need to be in business.

I honestly hope I answered your question. Just like my other posts, this is just my opinion and perspective. We'll have to let the other experts chime in.

[Edited 2012-10-01 15:41:03]

[Edited 2012-10-01 15:53:09]
 
us330
Posts: 3506
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 7:00 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 311):
I truly believe the company is so short people and parts they can't keep the operation going properly. I know many on here differ in their opinions, and that's fine

I think the problem that American's pilots now face is that even if this statement is true, the pilots need to do a better PR job because the public perception is that the pilots are engaging in some sort of job action and engaging in action that will have the effect of cutting off their nose to spite their face.

You've provided an interesting perspective on these issues--and I appreciate you using your off-duty time to participate in this forum.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 311):
I honestly hope I answered your question

You did your best, considering how poorly I phrased the original question. I guess what I'm trying to get at, and what I'm curious about, is why wasn't management replaced when the company filed for bankruptcy. While labor issues are far from AMR's only problem, my perception, just based on what I was reading, was that there existed such an animosity between management and labor prior to bankruptcy that the only way American could possibly turn around is if one of the two feuding parties was replaced--which in this case means management. As an analogy, when a sports team is underachieving or outright failing, the first person to go isn't the players, but the coach in an effort to turn over a new leaf and create a fresh atmosphere.

Furthermore, if what you stated in my above quote is true, then it appears that management may not only be despised by labor, but they might be borderline incompetent too.

From an outsider's perspective, American simply appears to be falling apart, and it desperately needs some sort of revival or new blood that can provide some sort of visionary leadership.
 
oneskyjet
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:46 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:07 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 311):
I am not sure exactly what "acting this way" means. If it is a job action, as I have mentioned earlier, I don't believe the pilots are doing anything wrong. I truly believe the company is so short people and parts they can't keep the operation going properly. I know many on here differ in their opinions, and that's fine.

Are you seriously still maintaining the fantasy that there is no pilot job action? Gimme a break: the numbers speak for themselves since mid September and passengers are taking notice and "voting with their feet" by booking away from AA because they cant depend on it. So I must conclude that in fact you believe the second part of your statement - that the pilots aren't doing anything wrong. In effect, you are saying that there is nothing wrong with holding an airline hostage. As one of your customers, they message is clear: take my business elsewhere.

How can this possibly be good for you, your membership, the rest of your employee colleagues?
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 312):
the pilots need to do a better PR job

On the one hand, I couldn't agree more. On the other hand however, I am not really sure what the APA can do. The bottom line, is many people think that anyone who makes more than them is overpaid and hence devoid of sympathy as it were and I don't think you can change that perception. Again, just my humble opinion.

Quoting us330 (Reply 312):
You did your best, considering how poorly I phrased the original question. I guess what I'm trying to get at, and what I'm curious about, is why wasn't management replaced when the company filed for bankruptcy. While labor issues are far from AMR's only problem, my perception, just based on what I was reading, was that there existed such an animosity between management and labor prior to bankruptcy that the only way American could possibly turn around is if one of the two feuding parties was replaced--which in this case means management. As an analogy, when a sports team is underachieving or outright failing, the first person to go isn't the players, but the coach in an effort to turn over a new leaf and create a fresh atmosphere.

You pose a very good question. The board and other stake holders really don't give a rats patoot about the employees and wouldn't change management just because of bad labor relations. If the profits were there, they wouldn't care if we were beaten half to death. That is just reality. I certainly understand that.

As far as performance is concerned, that is A VERY GOOD question. As I have said before, this management team is just part of the musical chair shuffle. They have been around for so long and are ingrained in AMR's toxic environment. The various versions of our management teams have so underperformed their peers its been sickening. It's easy to blame that all on the employees, but that is disingenuous. Has the labor cost structure been out of kilter after the other airlines delcared bankruptcy. Sure. But there have been major structural problems as well. And the board has been asleep at the wheel. After the Carty fiasco, the only board member with the testicular fortitude to really speak out, was Boren. Again, in my humble opinion, these folks should have been thrown out with the used lav fluid and replaced with a new team having a vision, a plan and the ability to motivate the troops as it were. Maybe someone like Gordon Bethune. It seemed to work at Continental. This is a stodgy old group incapable of thinking outside the box. I can say that about many unions including the APA as well sometimes, unfortunately. Again, as I mentioned before, I embrace capitalism with all my heart. The problem sometimes is that corporate executives think too short term and have no vision and they are enabled by the boards who also lack vision, etc.

So, in short, why were they not replace? That's a question I can't answer. I would like to hear from the board.

Quoting us330 (Reply 312):
Furthermore, if what you stated in my above quote is true, then it appears that management may not only be despised by labor, but they might be borderline incompetent too.


All I can say, is that the employees want LEADERSHIP not managers. Anyone can manage to a certain extent, but unfortunately nowadays, there is not enough leadership in this country. Corporate or politics. We want leadership with a plan and a vision going forward.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:35 pm

Quoting Reply 313):
Are you seriously still maintaining the fantasy that there is no pilot job action? Gimme a break: the numbers speak for themselves since mid September and passengers are taking notice and "voting with their feet" by booking away from AA because they cant depend on it. So I must conclude that in fact you believe the second part of your statement - that the pilots aren't doing anything wrong. In effect, you are saying that there is nothing wrong with holding an airline hostage. As one of your customers, they message is clear: take my business elsewhere.

How can this possibly be good for you, your membership, the rest of your employee colleagues?

I think I have covered all this in my previous threads. So, no need to rehash.

I speak from my heart and my viewpoint is just that, my viewpoint. I do not believe that any of the rules of conduct on this website require anyone to agree with me. I was actually called delusional a couple days ago. I cried myself to sleep. Actually that's not true. The part about crying myself to sleep!  

I spent all day today managing the trajectories of my big silver jet and everything went just fine and my passengers exited said jet happy as far as I could tell.

You will have to excuse my sarcasm. It's not personal. It helps me deal with all the horse droppings we have to deal with at work all day.

[Edited 2012-10-01 16:38:24]
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 8508
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:37 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 303):
anyone who books on American during this slow-down deserves what they get . This is not going to go away.....just heard that Delta is honoring American's status customers.....

Just as I deserve sitting for 2 hours yesterday on a plane with - at best - dismal air conditioning in 95 degrees at MIA due to a maintenance right up at departure...





...on Delta


Are AA worse than average right now? Sure. But just like the scores of MileagePlus members who allegedly left UA after 3/3 I can't help but think that this is just a Medallion wet dream.

That said, I will give credit to DL where it's due. When I flew down to Miami on Thursday we were delayed 90 minutes with AA, not so much as an apology. On the way back DL gave us $50 credit against a future purchase and $16 in meal vouchers to use during our layover in ATL after we missed our connection... and we arrived at our destination only 1h45m we originally booked to. Is this standard at DL or are they being generous right now to differentiate themselves from AA?
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:50 pm

This battle of the wills has to end eventually - one side or the other has to cave. The pilots (and potentially to a lesser extent mechanics) are obviously pissed at the company and some, it seems to me, are determined that if AMR's Board of Directors and the Unsecured Creditors Committee (UCC) are unwilling to transfer any more of the value of the company to the pilot work group, then they will ensure that that value is destroyed rather than transferred to somebody else. And that is, bottom line, what is occurring - value is being destroyed rather than transferred to any stakeholder.

On the flip side, AMR management's motivation is also quite clear. Horton is desperately trying to hold out as long as possible without caving in so that his position isn't weakened to the point that a USAirways merger (and thus loss-of-control) becomes the only option. He wants to keep the pilot contract as cheap as possible so that the AMR "standalone" plan built around that contract looks as financially favorable to the UCC as possible versus the Parker/merger plan. The pilot contract is also, of course, the costliest and most strategically critical contract of all of them, so Horton apparently doesn't want to hand over one dime more than he's forced to. In addition, I think I remember hearing that the "me too" clauses the APFA and TWU negotiated have an expiration date. If that's true, that also obviously incentivizes AMR to try and hold out.

This is obviously causing financial harm to AMR - which, again, I believe is precisely the intended objective for some. I see this ending one of two ways. If this goes on long enough, and sufficient value in AMR is destroyed, the creditors of the company may simply decide "enough is enough" and liquidate the whole thing. I find that prospect highly unlikely, though. I think more likely where this is heading is the UCC ultimately getting behind a merger plan with Horton cut out. The merger makes sense on many (though not all) levels, and is probably inevitable anyway either before or after AMR emerges from bankruptcy.

The unions would no doubt rejoice (at least in the short-term). Never a dull moment ...
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:53 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 317):
value is being destroyed

True statement.

Excellent post as well.
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24980
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 310):
Do we know how that compares to the other majors?

Sure. Here are Sunday numbers for OALs.

B6 - 1 cancel - 85% OT
DL - 2 cancel - 87% OT
UA - 8 cancel - 79% OT
US - 3 cancel - 92% OT
WN - 3 cancel - 82% OT
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 8508
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:34 am

I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me about what happened to AA1004 from MIA to RDU today. It was 90 minutes late and a friend on the flight told me that it was because (and I quote directly) "the crew were on strike". When I pressed him for details he admitted to not really understanding what had happened, but said that they had to wait on board for a new crew to arrive.

If his account is true then that's pretty damn significant... direct illegal industrial action. I do doubt it, but was wondering if anyone knew more?
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 24980
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:36 am

1004 was coded as a maintenance delay.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:38 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 316):
That said, I will give credit to DL where it's due. When I flew down to Miami on Thursday we were delayed 90 minutes with AA, not so much as an apology. On the way back DL gave us $50 credit against a future purchase and $16 in meal vouchers to use during our layover in ATL after we missed our connection... and we arrived at our destination only 1h45m we originally booked to. Is this standard at DL or are they being generous right now to differentiate themselves from AA?

Sounds like standard fair although the agents may have went "above" a bit". The $50 credit is automatic for delays of 3 hours or more. Anything under that is at the discretion of the supervisor. The meal voucher sounded about right.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 310):
Do we know how that compares to the other majors?

Those are scary numbers...

To put things into perspective.. For the week of September 20th - 26th, Delta's completion factor averaged 100%; less than 1 per day for the week. The 26th saw an on time rate of 96%; a new personal best for Delta's history. They're on track to beat out all majors for any recorded record since the numbers have been tracked. Humming along at an 87% on-time rate and 99.7% completion factor YTD..

[Edited 2012-10-01 18:39:51]

[Edited 2012-10-01 18:41:17]
What gets measured gets done.
 
aluminumtubing
Posts: 342
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:14 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:44 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 320):
but said that they had to wait on board for a new crew to arrive.

The maintenance delay may very well have caused the crew to go illegal.
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 8508
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 321):
1004 was coded as a maintenance delay.
Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 323):
The maintenance delay may very well have caused the crew to go illegal.

Thanks guys. That makes more sense to me!

I'd suggest that the person I got this didn't just make it up and was repeating what they'd heard from someone else... However it was probably just a rumor doing the rounds on the aircraft. If I was guessing it seems likely that a mechanical delay caused the crew to time out, and then some ExecPlat who spends too much time on FlyerTalk put two and two together to get 50 and decided that they had simply walked off the job.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
tx2fl
Posts: 17
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 7:41 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:43 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 322):

To put things into perspective.. For the week of September 20th - 26th, Delta's completion factor averaged 100%; less than 1 per day for the week. The 26th saw an on time rate of 96%; a new personal best for Delta's history. They're on track to beat out all majors for any recorded record since the numbers have been tracked. Humming along at an 87% on-time rate and 99.7% completion factor YTD..

And US Airways is a very close second, with 15 100% completion days for the year so far and a very small percentage point behind Delta for on time arrivals for the year. I believe for August US beat out DL and it's been neck and neck every month for 2012.

And the people keep complaining about US being second rate to AA....hmm..(OK It's the Executive Platinums complaining about using a plastic cup in first maybe..oh the horror!)
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:50 am

As this becomes too long, we are archiving this thread.

We opened a new one so discussions can continue

AA Cancellations Continue - Part II (by LipeGIG Oct 1 2012 in Civil Aviation)


Posts after this will be deleted as a potential result of system lag


Regards,

Felipe
Forum Moderator
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2734
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: AA Cancellations Continue

Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:28 am

The irony here is that if AA goes under, who is ever going to hire a AA pilot from "the last days"?

HR person: "Oh I see here that you were a pilot at AA when they went chapter 7, who is your buddy who got this past the autodelete function? We here at reasonable airlines taxi at normal speeds and write up MX issues when noticed, not 5 minutes after leaving the gate. So please, leave now and maybe if you move fast enough security will get a little workout trying to keep up to make sure you don't take any stationary on your way out!"

Its clear that working for AA isn't THAT bad, after all when all those awesome high paying jobs in the middle east, asia, and other parts... AA still has pilots working for them. WN hasn't stolen all the 737 pilots with their top of the industry pay. Heck someone here did a comparison and found that many people could make more at WN in a couple years than sticking with thier decade plus at thier current airline.

I'll tell you the exact instant when I knew AA pilots were the anchor that was going to drag AA to the bottom of the sea. The day when AA asked them to approve work rules for flights over 12hrs and the Pilots told AA to pound sand. Thats right, AA wanted more pilots to do more work and the pilots union came back and said "nah, we are just fine where we are. you don't pay us enough so we might strike at any time, but we don't need to work more or have more pilots flying"

Since then been plenty of comedy with the various bits about how they don't get paid enough to make ends meet, which is usualy right around the same time that AA is asking them to raise the minimum hours from the industry low, or some study showing the horrid AA pilot productivity.

I just feel bad for all the other AA employees and shareholders who have gotten the shaft due to AA pilots refusing to agree to the same basic work rules as other airline pilots. For refusing to work with the management to be flexible and grow so that AA might employ more pilots flying to more places instead of fewer to less. For working harder to put AA out of business than they do to keep AA in.
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