Considering the first thread reached more than 300 posts (and at this stage it makes life of users with low speed internet connections very hard), and considering the subject still retain interest with over 30 posts last 24 hours, we are opening a new thread for discussions to continue

Link to the previous one:

AA Cancellations Continue (by NWADTWE16 Sep 23 2012 in Civil Aviation)



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So what seems to be the main issue this time which is propagating the issues? I was away from A.net for about 10 days and my connection speed doesn't let me load the other thread well.

It seems to be that the issues haven't gotten much better.

Anyone have news sources talking about the issue?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1): It seems to be that the issues haven't gotten much better.

They've improved slightly, these past couple of days have averaged at about 60%+ on time which is significantly better than what it was a week ago. And we're no closer to knowing precisely what the root cause is, the narratives provided by the various factions on the other thread are unchanged ... probably because they all have a grain of truth in them (or so my lay-observer eyes read the competing posts)

With the issues with the seats not staying bolted now being reported by the mainstream media....is this actually going to strengthen APA's position that all these write ups are in the interest of safety and that the feds are watching? You would think it is.

The irony here is that if AA goes under, who is ever going to hire a AA pilot from "the last days"?

HR person: "Oh I see here that you were a pilot at AA when they went chapter 7, who is your buddy who got this past the autodelete function? We here at reasonable airlines taxi at normal speeds and write up MX issues when noticed, not 5 minutes after leaving the gate. So please, leave now and maybe if you move fast enough security will get a little workout trying to keep up to make sure you don't take any stationary on your way out!"

Its clear that working for AA isn't THAT bad, after all when all those awesome high paying jobs in the middle east, asia, and other parts... AA still has pilots working for them. WN hasn't stolen all the 737 pilots with their top of the industry pay. Heck someone here did a comparison and found that many people could make more at WN in a couple years than sticking with thier decade plus at thier current airline.

I'll tell you the exact instant when I knew AA pilots were the anchor that was going to drag AA to the bottom of the sea. The day when AA asked them to approve work rules for flights over 12hrs and the Pilots told AA to pound sand. Thats right, AA wanted more pilots to do more work and the pilots union came back and said "nah, we are just fine where we are. you don't pay us enough so we might strike at any time, but we don't need to work more or have more pilots flying"

Since then been plenty of comedy with the various bits about how they don't get paid enough to make ends meet, which is usualy right around the same time that AA is asking them to raise the minimum hours from the industry low, or some study showing the horrid AA pilot productivity.

I just feel bad for all the other AA employees and shareholders who have gotten the shaft due to AA pilots refusing to agree to the same basic work rules as other airline pilots. For refusing to work with the management to be flexible and grow so that AA might employ more pilots flying to more places instead of fewer to less. For working harder to put AA out of business than they do to keep AA in.

XT6Wagon:

The interesting thing is that I know some AA pilots who work very hard every month to pick up an extra trip, because the vast majority of lines don't have enough hours.

I can't remember if it was prior to the concessions or 2003 or 9/11, but a typical 757/767 domestic line had 72 to 75 hours. After the concessions, it was down to between 65 to 68 hours. This may have been management's way of trying to reduce the number of furloughs.

Needless to say, a lot of pilots started picking up extra trips, in order to blunt the effects of the wage rate cuts.

So, if APA were to agree to increasing minimum hours, it would make pilots in the middle of the seniority list and higher happy, because they would earn more. But for those near the bottom, it could very well increase the risk of getting furloughed, especially if the U.S. economy slips into another recession.

By the way, the pilots tied the extra long flying to a new contract. They were willing to fly more than 12 hours, if they had a new collective bargaining agreement. But, as long as the pilots were working under the old agreement, then no extra long flying.

Of course, this just shows how airlines should be removed from the RLA (or federal mediators should be far more willing to declare an impasse). Contract negotiations shouldn't drag on for five years after the end of a contract with no right to self help.

AA ended Monday with 19 cancellations (does not include the precancels from the trimmed schedule) - and mere 57% ontime arrivals rate.

So far at 10am central have 14 cancels today.

How much of this improvement in completion factors is due to the new month re-starting the monthly hourly limit for flight crews?. Supposedly AA has 10% less pilots active this year than this time last year so I am assuming that around the 25th or 26th of each month a lot of pilots start hitting their monthly hourly limits? I remember Northwest used to have some of these issues near the end of each month during the busy summer flying season and would have to cancel some flights because of shortage of crews?

I have flown 103,356 miles on AA since January 1st of this year and have never had issues, until now. Starting to wonder whether I should start taking my business elsewhere...I love AA and out of the 103,356 miles I've flown this year I have had 0 cancelled flights and can count on one hand the number of times I've been significantly delayed.

However, over the past couple of weeks, every single one of my flights is delayed quite significantly...I would hate to have to start flying another airline after all these years of being loyal to AA...but am really starting to think about it now.

Quoting dirtyfrankd (Reply 8): I have flown 103,356 miles on AA since January 1st of this year and have never had issues, until now. Starting to wonder whether I should start taking my business elsewhere...I love AA and out of the 103,356 miles I've flown this year I have had 0 cancelled flights and can count on one hand the number of times I've been significantly delayed. However, over the past couple of weeks, every single one of my flights is delayed quite significantly...I would hate to have to start flying another airline after all these years of being loyal to AA...but am really starting to think about it now.

I don't think you're alone and if I was in management at AA, you'd be my greatest nightmare - losing a loyal customer who's traveled over 100k miles only 10 months into the year. I'm sure others are contemplating their moves right now to other carries as we speak... as Delta and UA are grinning ear-to-ear right now and eagerly awaiting those moves   

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4): The irony here is that if AA goes under, who is ever going to hire a AA pilot from "the last days"?

Didn't keep anyone from hiring exEA pilots.....many work at AA today :-/

N737AA

Quoting N737AA (Reply 10): Didn't keep anyone from hiring exEA pilots.....many work at AA today :-/

How close is American to being in the same kind of situation that turned Eastern's ch11 into a ch7? I don't know enough about either circumstance to know.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4): The irony here is that if AA goes under, who is ever going to hire a AA pilot from "the last days"?

...pretty much anybody.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4): HR person: "Oh I see here that you were a pilot at AA when they went chapter 7, who is your buddy who got this past the autodelete function? We here at reasonable airlines taxi at normal speeds and write up MX issues when noticed, not 5 minutes after leaving the gate. So please, leave now and maybe if you move fast enough security will get a little workout trying to keep up to make sure you don't take any stationary on your way out!"

AA pilots are being extra cautious because they're under increased scrutiny from the FAA and now that there's no contract, the company won't do anything in their defense if they're found to have even a minor violation. I highly doubt this scenario will play out.

Quoting dirtyfrankd (Reply 8): Starting to wonder whether I should start taking my business elsewhere...

My employer is thinking the same thing. Despite our contract, embargo on all AA flights unless it is a code-share operated by another carrier.

Not to send a message or anything, AA isn't our primary carrier and I don't believe anyone is under any illusion it'll even be noticed (other than our AA rep perhaps), it's only intended to try and keep employees from getting caught in this mess.

[Edited 2012-10-02 14:17:37]

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4): The irony here is that if AA goes under, who is ever going to hire a AA pilot from "the last days"?

Well my company hired quite a few ex-Eastern pilots from "the last days," and I know tons more at (or retired from) other carriers, in the FAA, and other respectable, responsible jobs.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4): HR person: "Oh I see here that you were a pilot at AA when they went chapter 7, who is your buddy who got this past the autodelete function? We here at reasonable airlines taxi at normal speeds and write up MX issues when noticed, not 5 minutes after leaving the gate. So please, leave now and maybe if you move fast enough security will get a little workout trying to keep up to make sure you don't take any stationary on your way out!"

No so much.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4): Its clear that working for AA isn't THAT bad, after all when all those awesome high paying jobs in the middle east, asia, and other parts... AA still has pilots working for them.

Not everyone is thrilled with the prospect of moving their family to those places or is willing to spordically commute from Africa or Asia to see their families. If that was my flying career option, I wouldn't fly.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 4): WN hasn't stolen all the 737 pilots with their top of the industry pay.

Southwest doesn't hire everyone who applies. Not everyone wants to work at Southwest. Not everyone wants to fly a 737 their entire career. Not everyone wants to start over. Or commute. Or whatever. Southwest gets great candidates, but they don't get everyone.

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 14): Well my company hired quite a few ex-Eastern pilots from "the last days," and I know tons more at (or retired from) other carriers, in the FAA, and other respectable, responsible jobs.

Well I think we all know how much credibility to give XT6wagon, the post you quoted simply being the icing on the cake.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 13): My employer is thinking the same thing. Despite our contract, embargo on all AA flights unless it is a code-share operated by another carrier.

We have an AA ban too as of last week. AA is not our contract carrier (UA, Delta, US) but I know we send a fair amount of business its way through out of policy requests for direct flights or time preferences. Point is, Corporate travel has two priorities, manage costs and, probably more important, get employes where they need to go seamlessly.

I'd bet that AAs last minute, high fare business sales have plunged just as fast as it's on time performance.

The last thing any corporate travel manager wants is a bunch of angry, delayed travelers sending nasty e-mails and buying walk-up fares on another airline when AA $%^&s the traveler.

Quoting dirtyfrankd (Reply 8): I love AA and out of the 103,356 miles I've flown this year I have had 0 cancelled flights and can count on one hand the number of times I've been significantly delayed.

Where have you flown into/out of?

EVERY AA flight I take is delayed (and I'm not just talking the past 2 weeks, but the past 4 years!). I fly:

MIA-NYC-MIA
MIA-MSY-MIA
MIA-LAX-MIA
MIA-ORD-MIA
MIA-NAS-MIA

I find the whole AA situation quite sad.

Itst one thing to go bankrupt or belly up.

But AA's seems a long drawn out torturous affair. CAncellations, infighting made public, loose seats,....

like watching a company slowly implode....

I truly wish the company well.

Quoting mirrodie (Reply 18): I find the whole AA situation quite sad. Itst one thing to go bankrupt or belly up. But AA's seems a long drawn out torturous affair. CAncellations, infighting made public, loose seats,....

Hmm this explains a lot.

RUMOR ALERT from Tempe:

US is holding back on its merger of AA because of this. Anyone got anything to support this? I heard this from people walking around Mill and from an FA on top of T-4 last week.

My parents were recently delayed 22+ hours on AA992 coming to the US. They are now sitting in MIA on AA991 going home. They just announced a dent on the wing and that they might need to take the airplane out of service.

I wonder how much money AA is losing per day with this turtle operation in progress. My favorite airline, 9 year ExecPlat. Doesn't seem to have an end insight!

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19): US is holding back on its merger of AA because of this.

Would you blame them if this is true? It's just like buying anything else. (assuming US would be the acquiring party) Who would want to buy substandard merchandise?

Quoting N737AA (Reply 10): Didn't keep anyone from hiring exEA pilots.....many work at AA today :-/

Legal stikes are one thing, and illegal work actions that drive the company you work for out of operations is a whole different thing. No one believes the union line that the Pilots are the victims in the whole delay/cancelation nightmare. Perhaps they are not alone in misbehaving, but there is clear evidence that pilots are not doing their jobs. Not all, but enough that literally overnight AA became unable to operate to even a minimal acceptable standard.

Wouldn't that make *YOU* keep looking in the resume pile if you knew that a person was a member of a group that would rather put tens of thousands out of work, than find common ground for a workable contract? One who instead of moving on and finding a new job when no longer satisfied with the current job, would rather burn the company to the ground? I know I would. Maybe when the 1500hr rule hits hard on the regionals and the bottom of the resume pile is reached... but certainly not for someone asking $100K+ a year and control of one of the companies best planes.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):

I am beginning to wonder at what point US would be better off waiting for a liquidation. . .all you would need is for a bank to pull the plug. . . .and it would happen. . . On a serious note, I think liquidation for AA is more likely now than it was even 6 months ago. Thats pretty sad. . . I feel bad for everyone over there.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 17): Where have you flown into/out of? EVERY AA flight I take is delayed (and I'm not just talking the past 2 weeks, but the past 4 years!). I fly: MIA-NYC-MIA MIA-MSY-MIA MIA-LAX-MIA MIA-ORD-MIA MIA-NAS-MIA

I think the bigger question is where have you been flying? I have averaged a trip on AA every 3-4 weeks for the last years and would say that on average my flights have been on-time about 80-85% of the time, even including during this recent slowdown.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19): RUMOR ALERT from Tempe: US is holding back on its merger of AA because of this. Anyone got anything to support this? I heard this from people walking around Mill and from an FA on top of T-4 last week.

Doubt if highly. Parker wants a merger, and a little labor unhappiness or operational chaos has never slowed him down until now with any of the other airlines he's run.

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 23): I am beginning to wonder at what point US would be better off waiting for a liquidation. . .all you would need is for a bank to pull the plug. . . .and it would happen. . . On a serious note, I think liquidation for AA is more likely now than it was even 6 months ago. Thats pretty sad. . . I feel bad for everyone over there.

And, which bank would that be? The one providing DIP financing? SMH.

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 23): I am beginning to wonder at what point US would be better off waiting for a liquidation. . .all you would need is for a bank to pull the plug. . . .and it would happen. . . On a serious note, I think liquidation for AA is more likely now than it was even 6 months ago. Thats pretty sad. . . I feel bad for everyone over there.

It came off as a surprise but I think some people really kinda saw it coming. Someone definitely didn't do something right. I agree, If US or anyone else wants their assets, I guess see if the banks will pull the plug first, then they can all vulcher in and eat up the scraps.

My flight from Chicago to Phoenix was delayed a couple days ago. They were having issues because our flight crew was delayed inbound from DFW. They ended up delaying us about an hour and 15 mins. You can tell there was an overall lack of communication and I felt bad because the CSA's have been getting the short end of the stick having to deal with upset passengers.

American ended up giving me and my spouse $250 in travel vouchers after it was all said and done. At least AA is making up for it by giving out vouchers for those travelers if they contact AA for compensation. It's a nice gesture in my book.


- Mason

For better or worse, the general public thinks of striking pilots much the same way as striking professional athletes; people who have it pretty good, (and definitely better than most people who buy tickets which pay their salaries), holding the public hostage to screw even more out of the ticket buying public.

The company is most often viewed as more sympathetic since they own the company, they pay the salaries and the expenses and take the losses while the employee makes their money regardless of how the company does, right up until they are fired, laid off, quit or the company goes under.

The APA, (much like the currently striking NHL players), may actually have some valid points but they really suck at presenting a sympathetic viewpoint. Most of the travelling public cringes at the idea of having their hard earned, (and hard to come by), vacation bucks flushed down the crapper because some rich guy wants to screw over another rich guy, which only really screws around the poor schmucks in the back.

If the APA is looking for support from the public, screwing with their travel time and money is a lousy way to do it. They have to make their case to the Walmart crowd, not the country club set.

On the other hand, maybe the APA doesn't care about what the passengers lose by their actions. Management sure isn't getting hurt by work slowdowns.

Less than 60% on time average? Really? Who do you think is really being hurt by this?

You want respect? First respect the people most vulnerable to job action. Show respect for the people who ultimately pay your salary and are left screwed by 'work to rule'. They would be the people in the back of the plane, or as I've heard them referred to by many 'professional' pilots I know, "self loading cargo".

Respect, like loyalty, has to be earned and maintained.

Maybe it's just a PR problem. Maybe every point the APA is making is totally legit and every action is justified. If so, I'd work on that pronto because I'll bet real cash money that the vast majority of the public, including the flying public, doesn't think so.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 28):

Nice post!

N737AA

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 23): I am beginning to wonder at what point US would be better off waiting for a liquidation. . .all you would need is for a bank to pull the plug. . . .and it would happen

Despite AA going into BK with cash on hand and getting DIP (debtor in possession) financing, AA is insolvent. AA owes a heck of a lot more than its assets are worth, otherwise we probably would have seen liquidation a long time ago.

The theory is that the creditors will get more back if a new AA emerges with the current creditors as shareholders, and that new AA becomes more valuable after a few years.

It seems the pilots are banking on the idea that when push comes to shove it's easier to replace a layer or two of managers than it is to replace thousands of pilots.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 22): Wouldn't that make *YOU* keep looking in the resume pile if you knew that a person was a member of a group that would rather put tens of thousands out of work, than find common ground for a workable contract?

So if you saw AA on someone's resume, you'd just assume they were guilty? Why stop there? Some airlines have scabs, would you give them preferential hiring since they tried to help a hurting airline? You clearly are lacking in knowledge about pilot hiring.

Could someone please very briefly summon what is going on? I'm planning to buy tickets to an AA flight in November, but am hesitating because of what has been posted. I flew AA LAX-DFW-MCO last week and had some problems with the latter flight. First the plane left late because of a "leaking door" (ac had to be pressurised to check whether the problem had been fixed) and later it took 1,5 hours for the baggage to arrive at the carousel for one reason or another.

I don't have a problems with delays like this, but if they are fake problems created by the workers, I would very much like to avoid the airline in the future.

Quoting commavia (Reply 24): I think the bigger question is where have you been flying?

I clearly wrote where I've been flying in the post that you quoted! LOL

Did my four segments as usual this week on AA and had no delays, no cancellations, and no crawling taxi speeds. Maybe the guidance from APA, the threat of litigation, and the reengagement of negotiations have begun to right the ship?

68 mainline cancellations so far today. Most of them 757s. Are these cancelled by AA as a result of 757 inspection on seats or by the slowdown operation?

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 35): 68 mainline cancellations so far today.

More flights are canceled for today and tomorrow. Certain flights that are affected include:
MIA-CCS
CCS-MIA
MIA-LIM
LIM-MIA
MIA-LPB-VVI
LPB-VVI-MIA
MIA-PAP
MIA-POS
POS-MIA
MIA-SJU
SJU-MIA
MIA-SSA
SSA-MIA

If US does buy (most of) AA in liquidation, it will be fitting that the pilots will literally get nothing. Sure, many will get re-hired, but nada otherwise.

Hope that the APA isn't counting on that 1% a month cut much longer from those thousands of members.

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 35): 68 mainline cancellations so far today. Most of them 757s. Are these cancelled by AA as a result of 757 inspection on seats or by the slowdown operation?

This morning, AA ordered an additional inspection of the 48 B757s with the Weber seats prior to their next revenue flight. Only certain AA maintenance stations have been authorized to perform this additional inspection so many planes must be ferried to/from these stations to have the inspections completed. Hence, many B757 cancelations today. Logic suggests there will be some more tomorrow as well.

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 37): If US does buy (most of) AA in liquidation, it will be fitting that the pilots will literally get nothing. Sure, many will get re-hired, but nada otherwise. Hope that the APA isn't counting on that 1% a month cut much longer from those thousands of members.

That might be the way you hope it is, but I don't think that will be the likely scenario. It is a very complicated situation and I would suggest you keep an open mind.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 38): This morning, AA ordered an additional inspection of the 48 B757s with the Weber seats prior to their next revenue flight. Only certain AA maintenance stations have been authorized to perform this additional inspection so many planes must be ferried to/from these stations to have the inspections completed. Hence, many B757 cancelations today. Logic suggests there will be some more tomorrow as well.

Thanks AAR90!

'American Airlines' is such an amazing brand name - I wonder who will buy it when there is nothing else left?

My flight from LAX to DFW on an AA 767 was cancelled Sunday. It appears they loaded another flight on an MD80 into the schedule as it was a 99XX number....I was a little worried about my connection in DFW being tight, luckily I was able to get stanby on and earlier flight that was 2.5 hours before my scheduled flight so it ended up being ok. I knew when I saw an 800 number call my phone at 4am in the morning it was going to be AA  

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 22): Perhaps they are not alone in misbehaving, but there is clear evidence that pilots are not doing their jobs.

Any issue, no matter how small, is written up and inspected prior to departure. That means the pilots are doing their job too well, and AA management is fuming because they know there's no legal action they can take to stop it.

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 31): So if you saw AA on someone's resume, you'd just assume they were guilty? Why stop there? Some airlines have scabs, would you give them preferential hiring since they tried to help a hurting airline? You clearly are lacking in knowledge about pilot hiring.

   XT6Wagon has repeatedly proved that he is very ignorant when it comes to the realities of being a pilot in this day and age.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 33): I clearly wrote where I've been flying in the post that you quoted! LOL

I was being sarcastic.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 34): Maybe the guidance from APA, the threat of litigation, and the reengagement of negotiations have begun to right the ship?

Let's hope.

Quoting RedTailDTW (Reply 27): My flight from Chicago to Phoenix was delayed a couple days ago. They were having issues because our flight crew was delayed inbound from DFW. They ended up delaying us about an hour and 15 mins. You can tell there was an overall lack of communication and I felt bad because the CSA's have been getting the short end of the stick having to deal with upset passengers. American ended up giving me and my spouse $250 in travel vouchers after it was all said and done. At least AA is making up for it by giving out vouchers for those travelers if they contact AA for compensation. It's a nice gesture in my book.

Wait, let me get this straight - you were delayed 1 hour 15 mins and you were given $250 in travel vouchers? Something's being left out or AA wants to go out of business quicker than any of it's enemies want it too.....   

AA announced it will trim its November schedule by further 1 percent to build aircraft and crew availability.

"American Airlines said it will cut back on passenger capacity until mid-November, extending reductions from September and October as it cancelled hundreds of flights, citing aircraft maintenance issues and pilots reporting sick."

source: http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1349994591.html

Did AA really comment about pilot sick leave usage again, or is Airwise beating an misinformed horse?

It's been a week at least since we got an update, so how are things going these days? Same miserable on-time numbers?

Quoting quiet1 (Reply 47): Did AA really comment about pilot sick leave usage again, or is Airwise beating an misinformed horse?

Not that I can find. The actual AA statement I can find - quoted on the websites of both of AA's hometown papers - says absolutely nothing about pilot sick calls. In fact, I can't find any specific mention of the pilots at all.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 48): It's been a week at least since we got an update, so how are things going these days? Same miserable on-time numbers?

Not where it should be, but dramatically improved from where it was three weeks ago.