Largest Metro Areas Without EK

vinniewinnie · Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 43):
don't think habits are so different in many parts of America (particularly in some of Emirates' largest markets). Countries such as Belgium or Luxembourg (I think this is substantially different in NL due to tax/policy issues) have some of the highest ownership car rates in the world (on par with the US if not higher). Granted, motorways in Benelux are usually jammed, but that's the same in the Northeast US or in urban California...

The US being such a large country, it is true (and my mistake) that it depends on which region you talk about.

No-one in his right mind would drive from DC to Philadelphia to Catch a flight. Traffic is just too unpredictable. In Northern Europe for a similar distance people will not only face the same traffic, they will also will have high oil prices to swallow.

Car ownership in Europe though is not quite at the level of the US luckily though! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_vehicles_per_capita)

But yes in the Boston to Washington Area, you have 6 main long-haul international airports (Boston, Newark, JFK, Philadelphia, Baltimore and Dulles), in a similar corridor with similar densities of population , ie Amsterdam - London - Paris triangle, we have 6 major airports as well (Amsterdam, Brussels, London Heathrow, London Gatwick, Paris Charles-De-Gaulle and Paris-Orly)

This is not a scientific analysis but shows that basically with high population densities and high congestion, there is enough demand for multiple airports.

boysteve · Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 49):
TLV: If there weren't those issues between Dubai and Israel, most likely EK (with its own metal or on an EK-owned airliner) would be flying to TLV in not time.
Several years ago, someone commented in these forums about now retired EK A310 @ TLV because UAE diplomats having talks with Palestinian dignitaries.. So for that part EK has already been to TLV.

Hmmm, I cannot see EK flying to Israel anytime soon, but whatabout Fly Dubai to Israeli or Palestian territories?

With regards to the largest metro areas not served by EK I think this measure is a little crude. We shoudl be looking at metro areas with the highest GDP not served by EK instead.

AM744 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting boysteve (Reply 51):
With regards to the largest metro areas not served by EK I think this measure is a little crude. We shoudl be looking at metro areas with the highest GDP not served by EK instead.

Exactly. In fact I'd go with a GDP per capita measure.

lightsaber · Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting AM744 (Reply 52):
Exactly. In fact I'd go with a GDP per capita measure.

Yea, but Luxemburg needs more people.

I would go with either GDP or quantity of individuals with incomes greater than $75k USD.

Lightsaber

airbazar · Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 39):
And what type of traffic would fill flights on that route? I can't see it. Is there a lot of investment by, for example, Chinese companies in Mexico? And even if there is, why would they want to fly 60% further than via the Pacific?

That's a very interesting comment. I've always been curious how LH, AF, BA, IB fill their multiple daily flighs to MEX. Is it predominantly European O&D traffic or is there a significant amount of Asian connections? I've always thought that there were a lot of connections to MEX via Europe but maybe I thought wrong. I know a lot of Europeans vacation in Mexico but they typically don't fly via MEX, and tend to use charter carriers.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 43):
I don't think habits are so different in many parts of America (particularly in some of Emirates' largest markets).

Are you kidding? My wife and I commute 45mi each way, every day to get to work. That's 90mi=145Km per day, times 2 of us. Back in Europe, where we're from that type of trip you do once every 3 months to go visit the grandparents

And at $10+/gallon for gasoline it's sometimes cheaper to do it by train or plane

justinlee · Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:56 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 39):
And what type of traffic would fill flights on that route? I can't see it. Is there a lot of investment by, for example, Chinese companies in Mexico? And even if there is, why would they want to fly 60% further than via the Pacific? Example:

There is huge chinese investment and companies in Latin America. Actually one of my best friends back in China is working in Ecuador. Not to mention the Asian population in Latin America (1 million in Peru!). It's impossible for them to transfer in the U.S. for the visa reason so most of them will go by Europe.

ghost77 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:57 pm

If EK was to serve Mexico their only options are MEX and CUN.

MEX for its GDP and pop and CUN many people connecting thru DXB to get to paradise CUN. MEX's closing this year with 30M pax and CUN near to 15M, big airports both.

Mexico's governemnt will never give EK rights either from Europe or worst inside Mexico.

EK's only option would be DXB-MEX-CUN-DXB and if they can make a profit, welcome EK.

The other option would be AM getting 77L and flying DXB-MEX-CUN-DXB.

g77

SCL767 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 44):
Once the route matures, they could drop the EZE tag from the GIG flight (just a dedicated DXB-GIG) and, instead, route EZE with a DXB-EZE-SCL (being the single Middle Eastern carrier with a direct flight to EZE).

A DXB-EZE-SCL route is very possible. EK's president recently stated that the carrier plans to increase frequencies into Latin America:

Quote:
Mr Clark stated that in the near term Emriates’ expansion into Latin America would be supported with increased production through frequency additions. The carrier currently offers a daily Dubai-Rio de Janeiro-Buenos Aires flight and a daily service Dubai and Sao Paulo. CAPA sources in Argentina expect Emirates to begin operating a non-stop to Buenos Aires, possibly starting early 2013.

Emirates continues courting American as ink dries on Qantas deal

It should be noted that in the past, LATAM has mentioned developing a possible "relationship" with EK. EK's rival QR already code-shares with TAM's rival GOL.

LAXdude1023 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:34 pm

Below are the list of the largest economies in the US. The cities that have Emirates service have a plus sign by them. That should settle the question:

1 New York Metropolitan Area $1,280,517 +++++
2 Los Angeles Metropolitan Area $735,743 +++++
3 Chicago Metropolitan Area $532,331
4 Washington Metropolitan Area $425,167 +++++
5 Greater Houston $384,603 +++++
6 Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington $374,081 +++++
7 Delaware Valley (Philadelphia) $346,932
8 San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont $325,927 +++++
9 Greater Boston $313,690
10 Atlanta Metropolitan Area $272,362
11 South Florida Metropolitan Area (Miami) $257,560
12 Seattle Metropolitan Area $231,221 +++++
13 Minneapolis – Saint Paul $199,596
14 Metro Detroit $197,773
15 Phoenix Metropolitan Area $190,601

kngkyle · Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:00 pm

30 Largest metropolitan areas by GDP, green arrows mark the ones without Emirates service. Kind of surprised to see Chicago has a larger GDP than London and Paris, but it's only by just a hair.

Damian · Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:24 pm

In Europe, if you go purely by the busiest airports by passenger numbers (by 2011 annual rankings), then Emirates Top 25 list of unserved European airports would look like this:

1. Paris-Orly (ORY)
2. Palma de Mallorca (PMI)
3. Moscow-Sheremetyevo (SVO)
4. Oslo-Gardermoen (OSL)
5. Stockholm-Arlanda (ARN)
6. Brussels (BRU)
7. London-Stansted (STN)
8. Berlin-Tegel (TXL)
9. Helsinki (HEL)
10. Malaga (AGP)
11. Las Palmas de Gran Canaria (LPA)
12. Alicante (ALC)
13. Cologne-Bonn (CGN)
14. Stuttgart (STR)
15. London-Luton (LTN)
16. Edinburgh (EDI)
17. Milan-Linate (LIN)
18. Budapest (BUD)
19. Tenerife-South (TFS)
20. Milan-Bergamo (BGY)
21. Moscow-Vnukovo (VKO)
22. Kiev-Boryspil (KBP)
23. Marseille (MRS)
24. Berlin-Schonefeld (SXF)
25. Toulouse (TLS)

Of course, some of these cities (Paris, London, Moscow, Milan) are served by EK through other airports serving the same city.

[Edited 2012-10-06 06:25:53]

N770WD · Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:03 pm

In my talk at Routes 2012 last week, I covered this topic - although I used a weighted combination of population and GDP per capita, and a broader (time and distance) definition of catchment, which did favor U.S. market opportunities. My final list for EK was:

Chicago, Taipei, Boston, Detroit, Miami (ATL and PHL were next)
I threw out MEX because of performance restrictions.

And for QR: LAX, SFO, SYD, DFW, TPE
I eliminated ORD as already announced.

Full talk here, it's the second section of the presentation:
http://goo.gl/Dk87H

SFOA380 · Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 59):

When talking about SFO in conversations that involve a region like the Bay Area, you have to include the San Jose MSA as well. These figures leave out the majority of Silicon Valley--aka Santa Clara County which is a major driver in the SFO catchment stats.

SCQ83 · Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting damian (Reply 60):

We can remove cities with airports already served by EK:

2. Palma de Mallorca (PMI)
4. Oslo-Gardermoen (OSL)
5. Stockholm-Arlanda (ARN)
6. Brussels (BRU)
8. Berlin-Tegel (TXL)
9. Helsinki (HEL)
10. Malaga (AGP)
11. Las Palmas de Gran Canaria (LPA)
12. Alicante (ALC)
13. Cologne-Bonn (CGN)
14. Stuttgart (STR)
16. Edinburgh (EDI)
18. Budapest (BUD)
19. Tenerife-South (TFS)
22. Kiev-Boryspil (KBP)
23. Marseille (MRS)
24. Berlin-Schonefeld (SXF)
25. Toulouse (TLS)

And airports heavily relying on European leisure traffic, yet I wonder if AGP could be considered as well as a "main" airport for EK (lots of tourists from the Gulf region there):

4. Oslo-Gardermoen (OSL)
5. Stockholm-Arlanda (ARN)
6. Brussels (BRU)
8. Berlin-Tegel (TXL)
9. Helsinki (HEL)
13. Cologne-Bonn (CGN)
14. Stuttgart (STR)
16. Edinburgh (EDI)
18. Budapest (BUD)
22. Kiev-Boryspil (KBP)
23. Marseille (MRS)
25. Toulouse (TLS)

Their biggest gaps in the Euro network are certainly OSL, ARN and BRU. Then, EDI and BUD. KBP is already served by flyDubai.

BER seems more complicated with the German bilateral issues. Also, AB's partnership with EY (and QR flying) maybe means too much competition already. HEL is a smaller market that the Scandinavian capitals, and AY already serves directly many Asian cities from there (the bread and butter of EK). CGN and STR are too close to FRA (QR is dropping STR soon). MRS (close to NCE as well) and TLS seem to me quite smaller markets for the very near future.

Quoting N770WD (Reply 61):
Chicago, Taipei, Boston, Detroit, Miami (ATL and PHL were next)
I threw out MEX because of performance restrictions.

I certainly can't see DTW at the same level as BOS/MIA. Maybe on the paper Detroit has a similar GDP to BOS/MIA areas, but on reality Detroit area is overall quite a depressive economy with bleak prospects and little interest to foreigners (compared to tourism in MIA or education/research/health in BOS).

DTW is only served by Air France, Lufthansa and Royal Jordanian. Certainly the DL hub will avoid more airlines opening long-haul routes there. But MIA is a AA hub and it doesn't stop foreign airliners to open new routes or duplicate AA's long-haul ones.

Malayil · Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:59 pm

I feel that Emirates needs to work on changing their bilaterals with India and China. Already EK is maxed out on Indian and Chinese routes. If EK can open up more seats to those countries then I can see more American expansion. OSL, ARN, and BRU would help EK on their South-East Asian routes. Taipei is also another possibility. As for the next American markets, ORD, MIA and BOS will definitely be the next three.

OOer · Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:09 am

What about EK doing a MEX-DTW-DXB? The route of flight from MEX to DXB goes almost directly over DTW anyways. You add the 2 cities together and you can fill-up a 777-300. Or is this not likely at all?

Aaron747 · Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 59):
30 Largest metropolitan areas by GDP, green arrows mark the ones without Emirates service.

This chart does not include Nagoya in the ranking where it belongs - just above Osaka/Kobe in overall GDP.

The Nagoya metropolitan region (known here in Japan as the Chukyo area) has a GDP of roughly $450 billion.

http://greaternagoya.org/en/eco_inf/eco.html

2travel2know2 · Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:59 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 65):
What about EK doing a MEX-DTW-DXB? The route of flight from MEX to DXB goes almost directly over DTW anyways. You add the 2 cities together and you can fill-up a 777-300. Or is this not likely at all?

Passengers from countries which need U.S. visas to get into the U.S. flying to/from MEX via DTW will require U.S. visas to be on-board those flights..

incitatus · Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:57 pm

Quoting sfoa380 (Reply 62):
When talking about SFO in conversations that involve a region like the Bay Area, you have to include the San Jose MSA as well. These figures leave out the majority of Silicon Valley--aka Santa Clara County which is a major driver in the SFO catchment stats.

Exactly - whenever I gather metropolitan area economic data, I don't even think about it anymore - got to fix the San Francisco part because it is one economic area.

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 59):
30 Largest metropolitan areas by GDP, green arrows mark the ones without Emirates service. Kind of surprised to see Chicago has a larger GDP than London and Paris, but it's only by just a hair.

This is a good list but I have one beef with it. It is PPP. PPP for air travel does not work. Air travel mostly has inputs that are priced in a global market, so its price fluctuation across countries does not follow PPP.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 66):
This chart does not include Nagoya in the ranking where it belongs - just above Osaka/Kobe in overall GDP.

The Nagoya metropolitan region (known here in Japan as the Chukyo area) has a GDP of roughly $450 billion.

Yes, Nagoya needs to be in the list. But Osaka has the same issue as San Francisco - its effective metro area is more than its prefecture plus Kobe only. Osaka's metro area GDP is about 750 billion.

Malayil · Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:47 pm

Nagoya was previously served by Emirates. I doubt they would go back there after dropping it.

lightsaber · Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting Malayil (Reply 69):
Nagoya was previously served by Emirates. I doubt they would go back there after dropping it.

Why not? It was dropped at the start of this recession. When the Japanese economy picks up again, I could see it restarted.

Lightsaber

Malayil · Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:45 pm

I admit I'm not an expert on traffic from Nagoya, but considering Japan has been in an economic malaise for the past 20 years I don't see where the premium traffic will go to. Tokyo was always the big prize and when Japan allowed EK to go there they snapped it up.

neveragain · Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 67):
Passengers from countries which need U.S. visas to get into the U.S. flying to/from MEX via DTW will require U.S. visas to be on-board those flights..

Certainly a consideration, but couldn't we expect that most Mexicans flying to the Middle East would have US visas?

(Not that MEX-DTW-DXB makes much sense. If a tag were operated, I would expect the US-Mexico segment to be relatively short-haul to minimize costs. Would you rather operate a 1500-mi route with a 50% load factor or a 500-mi route?)

boysteve · Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 67):
Passengers from countries which need U.S. visas to get into the U.S. flying to/from MEX via DTW will require U.S. visas to be on-board those flights

Why is this? Do pax flying on NZ LHR-LAX-AKL require USA visas if to go between London & New Zealand without getting off the plane? How do people cope changing planes when they don't need to officially enter a county?

Malayil · Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:37 pm

All foreigners who fly into the US must present themselves at US CBP. Even for NZ's AKL-LAX-LHR where the final destination is LHR, passengers must pass through immigration and then re-board the plane. Of course NZ and UK have access to the Visa Waiver Program so they don't have to go through the hassle of getting a US visa. However, Mexicans are not so fortunate.

migair54 · Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting boysteve (Reply 73):
Why is this? Do pax flying on NZ LHR-LAX-AKL require USA visas if to go between London & New Zealand without getting off the plane? How do people cope changing planes when they don't need to officially enter a county?

I remember before it was possible to transit via USA without visa, IB used to have some planes based in Miami to fly to central America, I think never another airline has had a hub in the USA without being an USA airline. But i´m not sure when exactly that change and even to transit thru the USA you need a visa and it´s not cheap nor easy to get, specially if you are from centra america countries.

I can´t still understand why they don´t serve Chicago, it´s such a big economy and important city in the USA.

Quoting Malayil (Reply 69):
Nagoya was previously served by Emirates. I doubt they would go back there after dropping it.

Even after that, it´s easier to see them back in NGO than starting a new city in Japan, if they flew there it´s because they saw a potential market but sometimes the market conditions are not ready yet and you have to drop and wait for the conditions to be met.... i´m almost sure than sooner or later they will be back in Nagoya

allegiantflyer · Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:36 pm

PHX comes to my mind...But that would only be in my dreams to get EK service. But maybe they could use PHX as a pit stop for fuel or something since gas is much cheaper in Arizona Than California. But again very slight chance.

Malayil · Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:27 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 75):
I remember before it was possible to transit via USA without visa, IB used to have some planes based in Miami to fly to central America, I think never another airline has had a hub in the USA without being an USA airline. But i´m not sure when exactly that change and even to transit thru the USA you need a visa and it´s not cheap nor easy to get, specially if you are from centra america countries.

That all stopped after 9/11. As for Chicago, that is a major hole in their route network. But Chicago traffic will be mostly heading to India, and with seats to India capped tickets to India will become even more expensive. The bilaterals with India and China are EK's main issues.

Rara · Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 5):
Mexico City (Valley of Mexico)
Shenzhen
Nagoya (Chūkyō)
Lima
Kinshasa
Tianjin
Bogotá
Taipei
Dongguan
Chengdu
Wuhan
Chongqing
Hangzhou

Shenzhen and Dongguan are arguably covered by HKG, and Tianjin is covered by PEK. Also, Hangzhou is just a 50m train ride from Shanghai.

I would imagine EK would target either Chengdu or Chongqing next.

sankaps · Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:57 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 58):
Below are the list of the largest economies in the US. The cities that have Emirates service have a plus sign by them. That should settle the question:

1 New York Metropolitan Area $1,280,517 +++++
2 Los Angeles Metropolitan Area $735,743 +++++
3 Chicago Metropolitan Area $532,331
4 Washington Metropolitan Area $425,167 +++++
5 Greater Houston $384,603 +++++
6 Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington $374,081 +++++
7 Delaware Valley (Philadelphia) $346,932
8 San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont $325,927 +++++
9 Greater Boston $313,690
10 Atlanta Metropolitan Area $272,362
11 South Florida Metropolitan Area (Miami) $257,560
12 Seattle Metropolitan Area $231,221 +++++
13 Minneapolis – Saint Paul $199,596
14 Metro Detroit $197,773
15 Phoenix Metropolitan Area $190,601

In terms of cities in the US, I think we'd find a high correlation as well to those that have high South Asian populations (much more relevant, due to DXB's location and EK's extremely high presence in South Asia that is fed through the DXB hub, than Arab populations). I think if you rank order accordingly, the cities not currently served is the US have the lowest South Asian populations.

boysteve · Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:13 pm

Quoting Malayil (Reply 74):
All foreigners who fly into the US must present themselves at US CBP. Even for NZ's AKL-LAX-LHR where the final destination is LHR, passengers must pass through immigration and then re-board the plane.

Really? That's just nuts! Just think of all the worldwide hubs where millions of pax change every year without having to clear immigration, but you can't do it in the USA? Even when you arrive and depart on the same aircraft?

What's the reason? Paranoia?

SCQ83 · Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:18 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 78):
Shenzhen and Dongguan are arguably covered by HKG, and Tianjin is covered by PEK. Also, Hangzhou is just a 50m train ride from Shanghai.

I would imagine EK would target either Chengdu or Chongqing next.

KLM serves both Shanghai and Hangzhou from AMS. Both cities are 180 km. away, that's probably the same distance between some major Benelux/Rhin-Rhur airports linked as well by high-speed train which have intercontinental service (I can think of Brussels downtown-CDG which is roughly 1h10' with the direct TGV service). That's also the same distance as Philadelphia to New York (granted, no high-speed train in the US

). Not to mention cities like NY, Tokyo or London with intercontinental service from multiple airports. Shanghai, Beijing and the Pearl Delta are immensely populated regions and the wealthiest areas in the second largest economy in the world... I can't think of any reason why they cannot have intercontinental service from multiple airports... even in the same carrier (EK flies to both LGW and LHR).

Tianjin is 140 km. from Beijing... same distance Shenzhen-Guangzhou. Shenzhen is in "another" country (you will need to go through two borders) when arriving to Hong Kong (even if you have the direct ferry HKG-Shenzhen), also maybe some nationalities need specific visa for HKG (no idea about this).

Quoting sankaps (Reply 79):
In terms of cities in the US, I think we'd find a high correlation as well to those that have high South Asian populations (much more relevant, due to DXB's location and EK's extremely high presence in South Asia that is fed through the DXB hub, than Arab populations). I think if you rank order accordingly, the cities not currently served is the US have the lowest South Asian populations.

Boston has a large (and in general quite well-off) Indian community. On top of that, all the universities/colleges/research institutes in the area with many South-Asians.

sankaps · Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:21 pm

Quoting boysteve (Reply 80):
Really? That's just nuts! Just think of all the worldwide hubs where millions of pax change every year without having to clear immigration, but you can't do it in the USA? Even when you arrive and depart on the same aircraft?

What's the reason? Paranoia?

Originally, because the US was not really well located for int'l-int'l transfer traffic and so there was little need or demand for it. Today, a little bit of paranoia too. Plus it would be quite expensive to "re-wire" most of the the airports to allow seamless int'l - int'l connections, they are just not designed that way.

boysteve · Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 82):
Originally, because the US was not really well located for int'l-int'l transfer traffic and so there was little need or demand for it. Today, a little bit of paranoia too. Plus it would be quite expensive to "re-wire" most of the the airports to allow seamless int'l - int'l connections, they are just not designed that way.

Yeah I guess that makes sense (my paranoia comment was tongue in cheek!). Although I do know people who have flown UK-USA-caribbean locations so I guess it was a bit of a pain for them. I was just thinking of all the locations I had changed planes in the past such as DXB, SIN, HKG, AMS, CDG, ZRH where it's just not necessary. But I am still surprised that NZ pax flying from LHR - AKL have to get off the plane at LAX, to me that is just stupid but that's a difffernt topic for a different thread.

justinlee · Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:11 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 78):
Shenzhen and Dongguan are arguably covered by HKG, and Tianjin is covered by PEK. Also, Hangzhou is just a 50m train ride from Shanghai.

I would imagine EK would target either Chengdu or Chongqing next.

You can't imagine besides AMS, Hangzhou even has 5xWeekly flight to Addis Ababa via Delhi! Actually Hangzhou has the second largest South Asia and West Asia community in China and the largest South and West Asia community in China locates 100km south of Hangzhou, check out Yiwu on wiki. Then you will know why EK is trying to get traffic rights from Hangzhou. Even the 911 there has Arabian receptionists! I used to live there so I know it

SFOA380 · Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:14 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 68):
Exactly - whenever I gather metropolitan area economic data, I don't even think about it anymore - got to fix the San Francisco part because it is one economic area.

I'm pretty sure that once the San Jose economy is added in, it approaches Chicago and is ahead of Washington with a couple million less people.

AMX748 · Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:25 am

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 56):
Mexico's governemnt will never give EK rights either from Europe or worst inside Mexico.

Masiosare, that strange foe, which is not a foreigner. How long it will take for the Mexican government to act consistently with the philosophy they took since Salinas in the late 80's. Globalization means that. 5th freedoms and become into a truly cosmopolitan country

I remember Malaysia banned to maintain its service from LAX to MEX, according with some posts in the extinct "America Vuela" forum, because it bothered toooooo much the interests of AM and MX, which instead of renting a bigger plane to compete at the same level, they just kicked in the butt MH to never come back to MEX and continue offering their ordinary 3rd class service. UUhh, but DePrevoisin robbed more than 60 million USD to AMX instead looking to consolidate the FRA and FCO flights

What a mediocre country Mexico actually is, the narcos should be all dead hanged and addicts worldwide vaccinated for the drug consumption.

The hardest obstacle to EK coming to MEX is not performance. Is the lack of commitment and willingness to do the things in the appropriate way. How many years we must be dealing with the obsolete Mexico City airport instead of doing the new one. A matter that is pending from 10 years ago. That's why I said, about 70 posts earlier, we have to clean all the mess in the General Direction of Civil Aviation, and in the companies. Too many had the balls to destroy MX. Well, I could assume they will have enough balls to make their moves in a 5th freedom environment, like the AKL-ACA-JFK route instead of keeping acting as frightened pigs when the wolf appears. IMHO

Rara · Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:33 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 81):
KLM serves both Shanghai and Hangzhou from AMS.

Quoting justinlee (Reply 84):
You can't imagine besides AMS, Hangzhou even has 5xWeekly flight to Addis Ababa via Delhi!

I know, it's amazing.. It's strange more international carriers wouldn't use Hongqiao, because then they could really serve the Hangzhou and the Shanghai market with one flight. I can see why people wouldn't really want to go all the way to Pudong from Hangzhou. Is Hongqiao very restricted for foreign carriers?

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 81):
I can't think of any reason why they cannot have intercontinental service from multiple airports... even in the same carrier (EK flies to both LGW and LHR).

I'm sure they will have in the future, especially as the airports reach their growth limit. If Beijing goes ahead with the new international airport, it appears they will have two major airports with full international service. Still, for the time being I would think EK should focus on markets which they have no access to at all, and CTU/CKG ought to be the priority..

sankaps · Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:29 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 81):
Boston has a large (and in general quite well-off) Indian community. On top of that, all the universities/colleges/research institutes in the area with many South-Asians.

BOS is probably on EK's to-do list, along with ORD. BOS though has a different pax profile, and the South Asian population, though high in the University towns, is probably not amongst the highest in the US in absolute terms.

Regardless of these two exceptions, I think one will find the highest correlation of EK presence in US cities to be with South Asian populations.

Quokkas · Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:09 pm

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 56):
Mexico's government will never give EK rights either from Europe or worst inside Mexico.

In April 2007 an agreement was signed by Ahmed Mohammed Al Haddabi, Deputy Director General of the General Civil Aviation Authority in the UAE and LIC. Y P.A Gilberto Lopez Meyer, Director General of Civil Aviation of United Mexican States. According to what was reported in UAE Interact and AMEinfo, the agreement did allow traffic via specified points in Europe. I haven't been able to locate the actual agreement but this is what was reported at the time:

Quote:
The agreement includes designations of four UAE national airlines; Emirates, Etihad, Air Arabia, and RAK Airways. It also includes unlimited capacities, numbers of frequencies and routes, as well as any types of aircraft whether owned or leased that are operated by designated airlines of both countries for passenger and cargo services. The agreement also includes, in addition to the third and fourth freedoms, the practice of the fifth freedom traffic rights on specific intermediate points in Europe.

http://www.ameinfo.com/116926.html
http://www.uaeinteract.com/news/default3.asp?ID=361 (Emphasis added)

Of course, it is one thing to sign an agreement. Putting it into practice is another.

SCQ83 · Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:40 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 88):
BOS is probably on EK's to-do list, along with ORD. BOS though has a different pax profile, and the South Asian population, though high in the University towns, is probably not amongst the highest in the US in absolute terms.

Regardless of these two exceptions, I think one will find the highest correlation of EK presence in US cities to be with South Asian populations.

"Historically" there has been a relevant Indian community in BOS... on top of that there are the coming and going students/researchers (most of whom are not residents and consequently will not count for census purposes... and they will probably travel more often to India/Pakistan/Bangladesh). Sure it is not the largest community in the US, but according to Wiki, there are +62k Indian-Americans in the Boston area:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_American

justinlee · Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:15 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 87):
I know, it's amazing.. It's strange more international carriers wouldn't use Hongqiao, because then they could really serve the Hangzhou and the Shanghai market with one flight. I can see why people wouldn't really want to go all the way to Pudong from Hangzhou. Is Hongqiao very restricted for foreign carriers?

There is some kind of noise restriction for Hongqiao but CA/MU is using wide body all the time. So I think that's just a rumor. It's more or less a strategy thing for Shanghai Airport Group. They want to mimic Tokyo: NRT=PVG and HND=SHA. But the problem is that PVG is not so well connected in ground transportation as NRT.

justinlee · Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 87):
I'm sure they will have in the future, especially as the airports reach their growth limit. If Beijing goes ahead with the new international airport, it appears they will have two major airports with full international service. Still, for the time being I would think EK should focus on markets which they have no access to at all, and CTU/CKG ought to be the priority..

I agree. Some West China destinations should be top priority, including URC and KMG.

SCQ83 · Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:40 pm

Quoting justinlee (Reply 92):
I agree. Some West China destinations should be top priority, including URC and KMG.

It is surprising no Middle Eastern airlines serve Urumqi, considering the large Muslim population there and that it is a much shorter flight from the Gulf that the coastal cities (a A320/B737 could fly there).

Particularly URC seems to me more of a FlyDubai than Emirates destination.

justinlee · Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 93):
It is surprising no Middle Eastern airlines serve Urumqi, considering the large Muslim population there and that it is a much shorter flight from the Gulf that the coastal cities (a A320/B737 could fly there).

Particularly URC seems to me more of a FlyDubai than Emirates destination.

CZ had PEK-URC-SHJ and PEK-URC-DXB before. None of them seems successful. Not quite sure whether FlyDubai can succeed because now there are URC-IST, URC-THR, URC-ISB and so on. But it's worth a try!

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