Captain's Seat Loose On AA Flight 469

Medic2366 · Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:32 pm

PAX on AA Flight 469 from Philly to Miami are reporting that the captain announced his seat is loose on a 737-800. PAX reporting ground crew has boarded and removed captain's seat.

OOer · Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:53 pm

So you suggest the pilot fly the airplane in violation of an F.A.R. ? As much as you want to throw in a dig to the AA pilots...if there was nothing wrong with it...the plane would be flying and the seat would not be replaced.

jetblueguy22 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:22 am

I'd be one of the first to call out pilots on questionable actions, but this isn't one. We had an aircraft here at UND a few years ago that had a seat malfunction. The student was at the controls and the mechanism failed and he slid back, pulling the flight controls with him and nearly crashing. The CFI took controls and recovered. But what if this happened in the commercial flight? Even if they only had a strong nose up feeling in back you know it would be all over the news about how unsafe the planes are and how even the captain's seats are breaking. I say good for the pilot.
Blue

ikramerica · Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:48 am

I guess it would depend on how "loose" the seat was, wouldn't it? One assumes that the aircraft had just done a turn in PHL. Did the previous pilot write it up? Or did the previous pilot not even notice this dangerous and potentially deadly (so it seams) maintenance issue? Or did the new pilot overdo his seat adjustment causing damage?

EMBQA · Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 6):

I worked for an airline for many years before going to work for a MRO. I would see this all the time. When ever the flight crews wanted to make a statement some of the oddest write up's would start showing up. Write ups of an obscure nature, then we would get a bunch right in a row.

Aesma · Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:52 am

Once in my car I tried to adjust the seat while driving at 80Km/h (I know, stupid !). It was on a busy boulevard around Paris, and traffic in front of me was a little slower, so while adjusting the seat I wanted to brake just a little bit. I ended up stopped ! As soon as I touched the brake pedal the seat sled and made me brake harder and harder, then the automatic emergency braking that I didn't know I had since it was very new at the time, did the rest. Fortunately I wasn't rear ended.

aluminumtubing · Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:07 am

It is kind of funny regarding all the conspiracy theories related to many of these write ups. While I haven't bothered checking this one, I have checked many of them out. Having access to the log book via Sabre, I can see the actual write ups and the balancing entries. I have not seen any bogus entries on the flights I have researched, nor have I seen any on any of the aircraft I have personally flown. I guarantee I have not made any.

ikramerica · Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:52 am

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 11):

Right. So the increased number is both abrupt and absolutely within the norm? Or were pilots willing to fly unsafe planes before but now are finally reporting these dangerous situations?

There's a difference between "bogus" and anal.

georgiaame · Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:52 am

“Mr Bond, they have a saying in Chicago: 'Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action'.”
Auric Goldfinger in Ian Flemming's "Goldfinger"

I've been known to quote this on a number of occasions. This one seems appropriate.

DeltaMD90 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:15 am

Not qualified enough to make an assessment, but I don't think EVERYTHING that goes wrong at AA is due to labor. It is a dangerous time for pilots, IMO, because I think some pilots might be hesitant to write things up out of fear they'd be accused of slowing down the airline. That is a big problem

Maverick623 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:48 am

Sorry, but anyone accusing this particular pilot of participating in some sort of illegal "industrial action" is full of it.

It's pretty obvious the OP is trying to draw connections to the recent 757 issues, which is stupid because those have nothing to do with pilots and this incident happened on a 737... and this is something I have seen dozens of times in my aviation career at a different airline.

Medic2366 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:29 am

The original story came to me from two photographers who work for NBC. They reported this story and showed video of the seat being removed on the news at 11pm. They didn't say anything about sabotage. To assume someone sabotaged the plane is just speculation. There are no facts to prove that. I think it is very dangerous and irresponsible to say these things if we have no proof. All we know is another seat, this time one of the pilot's seats, was missing two springs, causing it to be loose. Flight was delayed for an hour as they searched Philly's airport for another spring since this aircraft only had one extra.

Medic2366 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:31 am

Here's the story with video - http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/A...in-Pilot-Seat-Pilot-172749211.html

aerobalance · Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:39 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
Not qualified enough to make an assessment, but I don't think EVERYTHING that goes wrong at AA is due to labor. It is a dangerous time for pilots, IMO, because I think some pilots might be hesitant to write things up out of fear they'd be accused of slowing down the airline. That is a big problem

You can only cry wolf so many times...

727forever · Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:45 am

This may come as a shock to some, but crews fly frequently when things on the airplane don't work exactly as they did new, but work well enough to get through the day with. There is not an airplane out there that is 100% perfect. Perhaps there is a higher sense of awareness now amongst the AA pilot group since they are under increase FAA observation and they no longer have the protection of a union contract or ASAP.

As for this seat, they break. It is common to have the lumbar support broken is not adjusting properly, the seat won't go up and down properly, or the locking spring on the fore/aft handle breaks. All should be written up and repaired.

727forever

jetdeltamsy · Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:59 am

this is what our pilots did at Eastern. and they, along with the mechanics killed the airline. pitiful.

XFSUgimpLB41X · Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:53 am

Quoting 727forever (Reply 14):

This may come as a shock to some, but crews fly frequently when things on the airplane don't work exactly as they did new, but work well enough to get through the day with. There is not an airplane out there that is 100% perfect. Perhaps there is a higher sense of awareness now amongst the AA pilot group since they are under increase FAA observation and they no longer have the protection of a union contract or ASAP.

As for this seat, they break. It is common to have the lumbar support broken is not adjusting properly, the seat won't go up and down properly, or the locking spring on the fore/aft handle breaks. All should be written up and repaired.

727forever

This. We let a lot of things go from day to day. What you're seeing at AA is what happens when you strictly follow what the FAA actually wants you to do legally. Pretty amazing the effect, isn't it?

BMI727 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:08 am

Remember the good old days when mechanical delays at AA were all caused by an old and worn out fleet?

AF1624 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:58 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):
Once in my car I tried to adjust the seat while driving at 80Km/h (I know, stupid !). It was on a busy boulevard around Paris, and traffic in front of me was a little slower, so while adjusting the seat I wanted to brake just a little bit. I ended up stopped ! As soon as I touched the brake pedal the seat sled and made me brake harder and harder, then the automatic emergency braking that I didn't know I had since it was very new at the time, did the rest. Fortunately I wasn't rear ended.

Mwahahah you shouldn't do that on the Periphérique man.

You were lucky indeed.

bigfoot0503 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:36 am

Were it not for the fact that AA is presently in bankruptcy proceedings and dealing with tenuous labor negotiations (or lack thereof) this issue would not even register as newsworthy. Sadly there are too many media outlets that tend to sensationalize stories such as this writeup and once "latched on" the saga continues.

I worked for Continental Airlines in the late 1980's/90's during which time Continental filed for bankruptcy in December 1990. It was apparent at that time throughout the reorganization process that generally the news media would report on stories/occurrences that were very routine and relatively innocuous. It's difficult to cast an organization in a favorable light when the flying public is basing solely their opinion on what is reported and sensationalized in the media. It was frustrating at the time working under those conditions and customers would make incredibly derogatory comments based on so little or no facts at all.

I have no doubt that the majority of the employees at AA are committed to a constructive, positive process that will restore the public's faith in the product that AA has for so long delivered on.

Tbone354 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:00 am

Not the pilot seats but back to the passenger seats...I heard on the news last night that among other things, AA is blaming spilled sodas for the seats coming loose. I would think that if this is part of the problem then all planes world wide would be having seat issues. Not at all certain I buy into this excuse.

Goldenshield · Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:22 am

I was jumpseating one time, and on taxi out, the captain's seat just would just randomly move with the bumps, so the best course of action was to turn the plane around, return to the gate, and ultimately, the flight was cancelled since it wasn't a simple fix.

0newair0 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:29 am

Quoting Tbone354 (Reply 20):
I heard on the news last night that among other things, AA is blaming spilled sodas for the seats coming loose.

I can't tell if your being serious or not... but as of 10/2 AA is officially blaming incorrectly installed fasteners that hold the seats in place for the issue. Someone "funny" journalist may have just made an off the cuff remark about the sodas.

hiflyer · Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:05 pm

from ap yesterday
"But officials offered a new explanation Thursday, saying that a combination of wear, poor design and even soda spilled into the tracks caused pins to pop out of the grooves."

cmf · Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:16 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 7):
Right. So the increased number is both abrupt and absolutely within the norm? Or were pilots willing to fly unsafe planes before but now are finally reporting these dangerous situations?

There's a difference between "bogus" and anal.

Is it increased? Or is it just more reported?

fr8mech · Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:13 pm

Flight crew seats are vastly more complicated than passenger seats. Their attached to a set of rails, which in turn, attach to the seat track. It has been my experience that when a flight crew member complains of a loose seat, he is complaining that the seat will not lock into the track and continues to slide. Rarely, the complaint is that the seat is wobbling or unstable.

That having been said; the flight crew tends to have final determination as to what a seat feels like. It is a rare maintenance operation that will go against the flight crew when it comes to a seat. It's been done, but only with Flight Ops management in the loop and with their concurrence. Still, the crew member can refuse to fly, but at that point, the crew member will face discipline.

thrufru · Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:46 pm

Quoting Medic2366 (Thread starter):
PAX on AA Flight 469 from Philly to Miami are reporting that the captain announced his seat is loose on a 737-800. PAX reporting ground crew has boarded and removed captain's seat.

As a pilot who flies this aircraft, I can assure you that problems with adjusting the seat are commonplace. In my experience it's not so much a function of the seat being "loose" as it is a problem with adjusting it to the desired location and/or getting it to lock into that position. It can be incredibly frustrating (especially flying on a small fleet and knowing that you've written up this item on this aircraft before). It's become my own SOP to lurch back and forth in the seat after I put it in it's final desired position when I'll be manipulating the flight controls to ensure that it's locked.

0newair0 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting hiflyer (Reply 23):
and even soda spilled into the tracks caused pins to pop out of the grooves."

Wow...

lightsaber · Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:40 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 2):
I'd be one of the first to call out pilots on questionable actions, but this isn't one.

Agreed. And not that uncommon with aircraft seats.

Question, do the pilot seats rotate?

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 3):
I guess it would depend on how "loose" the seat was, wouldn't it?

Aircraft seats must be very secure to be safe.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):
Remember the good old days when mechanical delays at AA were all caused by an old and worn out fleet?

Quoting thrufru (Reply 26):
It's become my own SOP to lurch back and forth in the seat after I put it in it's final desired position when I'll be manipulating the flight controls to ensure that it's locked.

A smart idea. Three cars ago I had a vehicle that if I didn't do that the seat might not lock. I was starting a drive and had a very pretty lady slam forward when I was barely breaking! Not how I wanted that evening to start.

Lightsaber

Bobloblaw · Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:21 pm

Ill say it...this is labor sabotage.

JFKPurser · Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:39 pm

INOP pilot seat is a very serious issue.

aluminumtubing · Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 7):
There's a difference between "bogus" and anal.

If a flight attendant hands me a cabin maintenance request form informing me there are 3 passenger reading lights out, I will write that up for repair. If I am at an outstation with a passenger reading light out and there is no maintenance or spare part available, since it is not a safety of light item, I will write it up back at the hub. Is that bogus, or am I "anal"? If you get me your cell number, I can call and verify with you whether as a Captain I should write something up.

futureualpilot · Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting Bobloblaw (Reply 29):
Ill say it...this is labor sabotage.

Thats pretty disingenuous to say it is all entirely sabotage. There are very valid reasons already discussed why this is happening, and none of them have to do with sabotage.

yeelep · Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 28):
Question, do the pilot seats rotate?

Not on the 737, the seats move fore and aft with the seat moving outboard but parallel to aircraft center line in the last 5 inches of aft travel. The other adjustments are seat back recline, armrest height and stow, lumbar, thigh pads, headrest and seat height.

falstaff · Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:40 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
Sorry, but anyone accusing this particular pilot of participating in some sort of illegal "industrial action" is full of it.

I agree this kind of stuff happens. Several years ago my dad was flying SFO-STL on AA (those were the days) and the plane was delayed coming out of SFO because the FO's seat was broken. Apparently the lock that stops the seat from sliding failed and the seat wouldn't lock in place. My dad later told me that they replaced the seat and they departed late.

Quoting Medic2366 (Reply 11):
They reported this story and showed video of the seat being removed on the news at 11pm.

Funny how now that is a news story now, but at one time it was no big deal.

Mechanical things break....

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 30):
INOP pilot seat is a very serious issue.

I was taking a ground school class at the time and I mentioned the above story to the instructor and he said that was a huge safety issue because if the seat were to slide back unexpectedly the pilot may accidentally pull back on the yoke

DocLightning · Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 34):
I was taking a ground school class at the time and I mentioned the above story to the instructor and he said that was a huge safety issue because if the seat were to slide back unexpectedly the pilot may accidentally pull back on the yoke

Bingo. And at what point of the entire flight is that seat MOST likely to slide back?

a) Landing and roll-out
b) In straight and level flight
c) Takeoff and rotation
d) At the gate.

The correct answer is (C). Which is the absolute WORST time for it to happen because even the best and most professional pilot is likely to reflexively yank on the yoke, leading to either premature rotation (start flying before there is sufficient control authority for controlled flight, which is especially bad if an engine fails right then) or over-rotation and tailstrike. Even if he has the presence of mind to release it the instant his seat slides, the other pilot has to recognize what just happened and assume control, which can be a delay of a second or two. At 150MPH on a short runway, you can travel an awfully large distance in that time.

In other words, a loose pilot seat has the potential to crash the entire aircraft and kill everyone aboard. Worst-case scenario, yes. But in safety-critical jobs, the job of workers is to think of the worst-case scenario and make sure that it never ever ever happens.

737tanker · Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 31):
If a flight attendant hands me a cabin maintenance request form informing me there are 3 passenger reading lights out, I will write that up for repair. If I am at an outstation with a passenger reading light out and there is no maintenance or spare part available, since it is not a safety of light item, I will write it up back at the hub. Is that bogus, or am I "anal"? If you get me your cell number, I can call and verify with you whether as a Captain I should write something up.

In the scenario that you gave even at the outstation you can write it up. You just have to contact maintenance and they will have you put it as a crew deferral and it will be MELed. If the F/As tell you about something that is broken just write it up and MEL it. If it can't be MELed then you get it fixed, either with your maintenance or via contract maintenance.

Maverick623 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting Bobloblaw (Reply 29):
Ill say it...this is labor sabotage.

Let's just say you're not the first one to say that in this thread.

And let's just say there's a reason you don't see those posts anymore.

aluminumtubing · Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 36):
In the scenario that you gave even at the outstation you can write it up. You just have to contact maintenance and they will have you put it as a crew deferral and it will be MELed. If the F/As tell you about something that is broken just write it up and MEL it. If it can't be MELed then you get it fixed, either with your maintenance or via contract maintenance.

Yes, you can write it up at an outstation. If the crew can flight crew placard it, yes it can be. Or yes, it can be deferred by maintenance as well. However, if there is no contract maintenance available, and it is truly a non-safety of flight item, it can be written up and flown back without a balancing entry. That is per our MEL procedures. My point is you have people on this site who are not airline pilots and seem to have the idea they are qualified to make decisions on how maintenance items should be handled.

goboeing · Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting Bobloblaw (Reply 29):

Ill say it...this is labor sabotage.

Either you're joking, or you have no idea how often the mechanisms that move the seats break!

This only made the news because of the recent nonsense to do with maintenance and loose seats.

DeltaMD90 · Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:59 pm

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 39):
Quoting Bobloblaw (Reply 29):

Ill say it...this is labor sabotage.

Either you're joking, or you have no idea how often the mechanisms that move the seats break!

He's joking.

Even with the most pissed off employees, I doubt they'd do something like this... this could down the entire aircraft

goboeing · Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 40):
He's joking.

Even with the most pissed off employees, I doubt they'd do something like this... this could down the entire aircraft

I hope so! . . . some of the replies in some of these threads have been so out of touch with reality it puts them in the category of complete absurdity.

Mir · Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting Tbone354 (Reply 20):
I heard on the news last night that among other things, AA is blaming spilled sodas for the seats coming loose.

Yeah...right....

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 31):
If a flight attendant hands me a cabin maintenance request form informing me there are 3 passenger reading lights out, I will write that up for repair. If I am at an outstation with a passenger reading light out and there is no maintenance or spare part available, since it is not a safety of light item, I will write it up back at the hub.

Shouldn't you be able to defer cabin reading lights by the MEL? If not, someone at the MX department has to be dropping the ball - it's ridiculous to have to ground a flight because a reading light doesn't work. I'm not in the airline world, nor do I know our MEL by heart, but I'm pretty sure our reading lights are in there.

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 36):
If it can't be MELed then you get it fixed, either with your maintenance or via contract maintenance.

pecevanne · Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

I remember when I was young, taking off from Mexico City airport in B 727-200, just after rotation in runway 23 R My seat was broken and I went almost direct to FI panel. Capt took control of the roll an continue climb. Flight back to MEX City airport. How this happen??? I still missed MEXICANA

DocLightning · Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:41 pm

Quoting pecevanne (Reply 43):
I remember when I was young, taking off from Mexico City airport in B 727-200, just after rotation in runway 23 R My seat was broken and I went almost direct to FI panel. Capt took control of the roll an continue climb. Flight back to MEX City airport. How this happen??? I still missed MEXICANA

Exactly the sort of scenario I described in my post. Thank you very much for illustrating my point so beautifully. If it will happen, it will happen at rotation. Your captain did an excellent job by recognizing what had just happened and reacting immediately.

I wonder if this sort of failure is ever covered in the sims.

goboeing · Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:48 pm

I've had it slide back one notch at rotation several times. Not completely broken to the point of sliding all the way back but the momentum is certainly there because it was only the notch that stopped it from going all the way back.

futureualpilot · Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:27 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 44):
I wonder if this sort of failure is ever covered in the sims.

Hard to simulate a seat sliding back in the sims without bringing crews in on it, but I have had instructors quietly whisper either to me, or the other pilot depending on who was PF at the time to pretend to be unresponsive so the PM had to react at a critical time, so there is something that can be done.

aluminumtubing · Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 42):
Shouldn't you be able to defer cabin reading lights by the MEL?

They are not safety of flight items, hence you are correct. Which is why it is so comical with all the stories lately of flights being written up for such trivial items and the flights being significantly delayed. Not happening for such things.

planefreakaa · Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:58 am

the 737 capt. seat has a spring in that breaks alll the time, this spring helps to secure the seat in the seat track...... this is not a job action at all

OB1504 · Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:38 am

Quoting 727forever (Reply 14):
This may come as a shock to some, but crews fly frequently when things on the airplane don't work exactly as they did new, but work well enough to get through the day with. There is not an airplane out there that is 100% perfect. Perhaps there is a higher sense of awareness now amongst the AA pilot group since they are under increase FAA observation and they no longer have the protection of a union contract or ASAP.

The pilots aren't doing this to destroy the company. Quite the contrary: they like being AA pilots and are trying not to lose their jobs!

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 22):
I can't tell if your being serious or not... but as of 10/2 AA is officially blaming incorrectly installed fasteners that hold the seats in place for the issue. Someone "funny" journalist may have just made an off the cuff remark about the sodas.

It's half-right. In another thread it was mentioned that spilled liquids can cause the fasteners to malfunction. It's a bizarre occurrence.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 35):
The correct answer is (C). Which is the absolute WORST time for it to happen because even the best and most professional pilot is likely to reflexively yank on the yoke, leading to either premature rotation (start flying before there is sufficient control authority for controlled flight, which is especially bad if an engine fails right then) or over-rotation and tailstrike. Even if he has the presence of mind to release it the instant his seat slides, the other pilot has to recognize what just happened and assume control, which can be a delay of a second or two. At 150MPH on a short runway, you can travel an awfully large distance in that time.

In other words, a loose pilot seat has the potential to crash the entire aircraft and kill everyone aboard. Worst-case scenario, yes. But in safety-critical jobs, the job of workers is to think of the worst-case scenario and make sure that it never ever ever happens.

Even in a Cessna 152, a loose seat can be a death sentence. And to those who say this is sabotage: What pilot would endanger his own life because he's not happy with his pay?

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