What Happened To AAs LGA Redo?

jfklganyc · Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:45 pm

I know Concourse D was fixed up, but Concourse C was also supposed to be fixed up.

I was there Friday. Looks like a third world nation with leaky roof (always) and portable air condition units blowing air into each gate area.

In other words, nothing has changed.

How does AA expect to compete with DL and their Ipad Palace across the field with these conditions?

AAIL86 · Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:54 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Thread starter):
How does AA expect to compete with DL and their Ipad Palace across the field with these conditions?

Good point, although we could ask the exact opposite question at JFK...

deltairlines · Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 1):

Good point, although we could ask the exact opposite question at JFK...

Though Delta is making tangible progress to fixing that with the expanded Terminal 4 opening up next Summer.

Sure, Terminal 2 is no prize, but it is functionable (though the RJ complex is a zoo) and is a lot better than the mess Terminal 3 is.

STT757 · Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Thread starter):

How does AA expect to compete with DL and their Ipad Palace across the field with these conditions?

Same way DL competed at JFK with their own third world facilities. Besides when the CTB is rebuilt, the Port Authority should be making an announcement soon, it will the premier facility in the NYC market.

deltairlines · Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:07 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
Besides when the CTB is rebuilt, the Port Authority should be making an announcement soon, it will the premier facility in the NYC market.

Though before, AA was competing with a very different Delta at LGA - one that was heavily using 50 seat RJs.

Granted, AA has stepped up their use of CR7s out of LGA (a competitive necessity), but now Delta serves pretty much every city out of LaGuardia that AA does (the three that they don't are YYZ which Delta codeshares with WestJet on; XNA which AA has long had dominance in; CRW which quite frankly is a minor city and would not likely be able to support both AA and DL service to New York). A good number of these cities that AA is flying are on one-cabin RJs, where Delta is running two cabin RJs with F, wi-fi, Economy Comfort and other things that are just not found on

DLD9S · Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:09 pm

How many people base their travel purchases on the shape of the terminal amenities on one end of the trip... especially in NYC? If that was the case, we would only be flying DL at LGA and AA and B6 at JFK, yet all airlines at all three airports seem to have plenty of repeat customers.

Sure, maybe those people who really love iPads will chose DL, but I don't see an ExPlat jumping ship because DL has a fancier terminal at one airport.

I know it is bash AA month on this site, but I don't think people will hold the crappiness of LGA against AA.

777222LR · Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:11 pm

I first flew into/out of LGA around 1999 on AA, and a few times in 2000, 2001, and 2002. Then, I flew mainly to JFK or EWR for a period of 10 years. In 2011, I flew through LGA again, and it looked just like it did 10-12 years ago. Terrible construction, seemingly at the same gates. LOL!

STT757 · Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:14 pm

AA is not in a position to compete aggressively, they are in survival mode right now. Just as DL was during their bankruptcy. There are going to be major changes, merging with US is probably the most likely. How that will change their presence at LGA I do not know. A merged AA/US might put more emphasis and more resources into the NY market, or they can keep the status quo, or they can downsize.

JAAlbert · Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:32 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
Besides when the CTB is rebuilt, the Port Authority should be making an announcement soon, it will the premier facility in the NYC market.

For us non-new yorker/non-aviation folks, what's the CBT?

I had the experience of flying through Delta's JFK terminal a few times before new construction started - it was shocking that authorities - whomever they are - would have allowed something that awful as a gateway into and out of the USA's top city. I can't wait to see the new terminal. I also flew through LGA about two years ago and again was shocked at its condition. I am hoping they are cleaning it up.

STT757 · Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 8):
For us non-new yorker/non-aviation folks, what's the CBT?

CTB, Central Terminal Building.

Main LGA Terminal where most carriers are located, the Port Authority is in the planning stages of replacing the 1950s structure with a new $2.6 Billion dollar terminal.

qqflyboy · Sun Oct 07, 2012 8:27 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but AA doesn't own/control the C concourse, like they do D, and therefore needed more cooperation with PANYNJ and perhaps United to complete the renovations there, and still haven't gotten the go ahead to do so. Perhaps it's a moot point for now and they're not actively pursuing it, but I know there were delays out of AA's control early on in the process of planning for the C terminal. Ultimately AA would like to have an airside connector built between C and D to prevent connections from having to clear security again.

JAAlbert · Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
CTB, Central Terminal Building.

Ah! Thanks STT. I am sure the building was great back in the day. It would be great if the renovations bring in more light, space and height into the building - views of the tarmac are of course always appreciated!

jfklganyc · Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:13 am

I want to add one thing:

I was back in LGA today...this time in D. Holy Crap! It's spectacular!

AA did such an fantastic job on D, I hardly recognized the place

Now it is REALLY a shame that C is such a mess. We are comparing a Hilton to a Roadside Hourly Rate Motel between the 2 concourses...and they are both AA!

Weird

airliner371 · Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:18 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 11):
renovations

Its not a renovation, its a demolition and rebuild.

commavia · Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:28 am

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 1):
Good point, although we could ask the exact opposite question at JFK...

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9):
Main LGA Terminal where most carriers are located, the Port Authority is in the planning stages of replacing the 1950s structure with a new $2.6 Billion dollar terminal.

As we've previously discussed, seeing as this is New York we're talking about, I'm not holding my breath.

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 10):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but AA doesn't own/control the C concourse, like they do D, and therefore needed more cooperation with PANYNJ and perhaps United to complete the renovations there, and still haven't gotten the go ahead to do so. Perhaps it's a moot point for now and they're not actively pursuing it, but I know there were delays out of AA's control early on in the process of planning for the C terminal. Ultimately AA would like to have an airside connector built between C and D to prevent connections from having to clear security again.

I have read that that is a big piece of why improvements to C have not materialized like with D. My understanding was that AA's #1 priority with regard to C - beyond any aesthetic improvements - was the sterile C-D connector, and that once that was put on ice for a variety of reasons, that slowed the whole thing.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
I was back in LGA today...this time in D. Holy Crap! It's spectacular!

AA did such an fantastic job on D, I hardly recognized the place

Now it is REALLY a shame that C is such a mess. We are comparing a Hilton to a Roadside Hourly Rate Motel between the 2 concourses...and they are both AA!

I agree. AA did a nice job fixing up D as much as they possibly could given the constraints they were working with. That concourse will certainly not be winning any awards, by any stretch, but compared to what it looked like before, it is a vast improvement. As somebody who has been flying in and out of LGA for over 20 years, as thus with realistic expectations, I was very pleasantly surprised with how nice the D refurbishment turned out.

PIEAvantiP180 · Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:53 am

Well I'll post the 64 million dollar question, what happens if AA and US merge? I know that there is no way the current facilities from either airline can handle both operations. So do they run a separate operation from two terminals which will confuse allot of people who are not regular fliers and will end up in the wrong place all the time. Or do you try and craft a deal where multiple airlines can move into the marine air terminal like AC, WN, F9, B6, NK and have DL move into the rest of C and then US would have enough room to move in with AA in the central terminal. What are everyone's thoughts on this matter?

jfklganyc · Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:02 pm

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 15):
Or do you try and craft a deal where multiple airlines can move into the marine air terminal like AC, WN, F9, B6, NK and have DL move into the rest of C and then US would have enough room to move in with AA in the central terminal. What are everyone's thoughts on this matter?

Good question. US would likely return to the CTB after a 25 year hiatus. Talk about going backward.

Move with the least disruption...US to CLT/PHL to the CTB, Shuttle stays at Terminal C

Another scenario: B6 to Terminal C, US to the A concourse in the CTB

airliner371 · Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:46 pm

Or UA moves to B and one gate in A, 3 WN in A, 3 AC in A, F9, NK and B6 all go to US gates and US takes over the rest of C. This would be an even trade of US to other airlines. Another possibility is to move F9, NK, B6 to Terminal A and move the shuttle to C so DL and WS are sole airlines in C/D.

This way AA/US get all of concourses C/D.

STT757 · Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:09 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 14):

As we've previously discussed, seeing as this is New York we're talking about, I'm not holding my breath.

At some point in the future, 2015?, the Port Authority will stop building the World Trade Center. That alone will relieve their capital plans.

FlyDeltaJets · Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:58 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 17):

UA is already in the process of moving their remaining flights from A to C to consolidate operations.

STT757 · Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 19):
UA is already in the process of moving their remaining flights from A to C to consolidate operations.

Yup, they just closed the former Presidents Club/ Ionosphere club. It's been there forever, right as you come in from the parking garage before you head down stairs.

airliner371 · Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:39 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
Yup, they just closed the former Presidents Club/ Ionosphere club. It's been there forever, right as you come in from the parking garage before you head down stairs.

It is now a Maple Leaf Lounge.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 19):
UA is already in the process of moving their remaining flights from A to C to consolidate operations.

Thats not going to stop anyone.

gq · Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:48 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIbjnsofkxk

How can AA compete when Delta has the best NYC ad campaign LOL

richierich · Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:23 pm

Quoting gq (Reply 22):
How can AA compete when Delta has the best NYC ad campaign LOL

That's a nice NYC ad - have to admit! Is that the Queensboro Bridge in the video? Very close to JetBlue-HQ if it is!

STT757 · Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:27 pm

Quoting gq (Reply 22):
How can AA compete when Delta has the best NYC ad campaign LOL

AA's bridges campaign of the late '90s is still the best imo, although association with the tragic events of 9/11 cannot be ignored watching this today.

http://youtu.be/Fayz_MOTFns

[Edited 2012-10-08 08:28:24]

richierich · Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 24):
AA's bridges campaign of the late '90s is still the best imo, although association with the tragic events of 9/11 cannot be ignored watching this today.

I forgot about this commercial... besides a few views of the towers and a flight board that included Los Angeles, I didn't really know notice any strong 9/11 "associations" until the final seconds. Quite poignant and bizarre when viewed with historical hindsight.

gq · Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:25 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 23):
Is that the Queensboro Bridge in the video?

Yes it is

neveragain · Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:00 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 18):
At some point in the future, 2015?, the Port Authority will stop building the World Trade Center. That alone will relieve their capital plans.

The PANYNJ is likely going to be turning to the private sector to fund the re-development of the LGA CTB having recognized that it in not in a position to move forward with the development itself. Last winter, it asked the financial community to provide ideas and suggestions for proposed financing models that could be used to support the $2.6B project. That document provided numerous details about the project, which from memory was discussed in a separate thread on this site a month or two ago.

The likely model will be something similar to what was used to re-develop JFK Terminal 4 and will be a build-operate concession of some sort. The concession holder will likely consist of one or more financial interests/investment funds, and airport operator, and other engineering and construction interests. For example, one could imagine a combined Citibank/Fraport/Turner entity pursuing this project. (note those were just example companies....)

Folks might find pages 8-13 of this document interesting: http://www.panynj.gov/business-opportunities/pdf/RFIDOC_27466.pdf

Key points:

* Plan would involve construction of two parallel piers that are roughly parallel to the existing piers on Terminals C and D. Remote parking and hardstands would be provided between piers.

* Construction would commence in July 2014 (likely to slip) and last seven years

* Terminal would be operated by a concession agreement and would likely be full common-use with preferential use rights for key tenants

In light of this massive re-development, it is clear why airlines and the PANYNJ have avoided extensive investments within the current facility. Of course, that is likely of little consolation to the passengers using the terminal today.

commavia · Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting neveragain (Reply 27):
The PANYNJ is likely going to be turning to the private sector to fund the re-development of the LGA CTB having recognized that it in not in a position to move forward with the development itself.

Like I said - not holding my breath.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 27):
The likely model will be something similar to what was used to re-develop JFK Terminal 4 and will be a build-operate concession of some sort. The concession holder will likely consist of one or more financial interests/investment funds, and airport operator, and other engineering and construction interests. For example, one could imagine a combined Citibank/Fraport/Turner entity pursuing this project. (note those were just example companies....)

Makes sense.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 27):
* Plan would involve construction of two parallel piers that are roughly parallel to the existing piers on Terminals C and D. Remote parking and hardstands would be provided between piers.

Interesting. That would seem to be a plausible setup - I'd imagine with AA taking up much of that western pier, United the balance and/or moving into the head house, and then the rest of the airlines taking up the east pier. I think the part of find most interesting about that proposed layout is the fate of the 3 AA hangar bays on the west side of the CTB - are those definitely envisioned to stick around, and if so, considering that the shared bays between the CTB and DL-US terminal are going away, would AA still be able to retain control of all 3 of those hangar bays?

Quoting neveragain (Reply 27):
* Construction would commence in July 2014 (likely to slip) and last seven years

Quoting neveragain (Reply 27):
* Terminal would be operated by a concession agreement and would likely be full common-use with preferential use rights for key tenants

So to me, based on the current users of the CTB, that would imply preferential use for AA and United, and common-used for everybody else.

rwy04lga · Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:33 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 23):
Is that the Queensboro Bridge in the video?

Already answered

Quoting commavia (Reply 28):
I think the part of find most interesting about that proposed layout is the fate of the 3 AA hangar bays on the west side of the CTB - are those definitely envisioned to stick around, and if so, considering that the shared bays between the CTB and DL-US terminal are going away, would AA still be able to retain control of all 3 of those hangar bays?

I believe those 3 hangars were a gift to AA as reward for starting service to LGA way back when. What's the deal with those hangars? Will they stay with AA? Will the PA take them back?

airliner371 · Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 28):
So to me, based on the current users of the CTB, that would imply preferential use for AA and United, and common-used for everybody else.

Preferential to AA, UA, WN, B6 and MAYBE AC.

jfklganyc · Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:47 am

"I believe those 3 hangars were a gift to AA as reward for starting service to LGA way back when. What's the deal with those hangars? Will they stay with AA? Will the PA take them back"

Sure are. And if they stay as is, AA pays minimal rent (circa 1939) per the agreement...so I've heard.

AA operates quite the little mx operation out of there.

Total dumps...you should see the rat boxes every 10 feet or so inside

What Happened To AAs LGA Redo?

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