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gilesdavies
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"Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:12 pm

That is what a government think tank are saying should happen, if Heathrow cannot be expanded...

Before all the Luton Airport haters out there jump on the bandwagon, were not talking of the existing facility, but a new airport completely, built in that vicinity near to Luton!

I think this idea makes so much sense, especially when were talking about location and its superior connections to the rest of the country compared to other locations in the London area, where current airports exist or have been proposed.

Obviously like any location for an airport of this size, huge amounts of infrastructure would still need to be put in place.

http://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2012-...on-could-become-uks-major-airport/

http://www.kentnews.co.uk/news/luton..._airport_says_think_tank_1_1651926
 
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mayor
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:22 pm

Not all that familiar with with it all, but why couldn't Gatwick become the main airport for London? Is there room to expand, there?
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tp1040
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 1):
Not all that familiar with with it all, but why couldn't Gatwick become the main airport for London? Is there room to expand, there?

Wrong side of town??
 
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lightsaber
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:34 pm

How? I'm not worried about location, but rather land ownership. I could see LTN becoming a two runway large airport, but not 'London's main airport.' If LHR is not expanded, it is time to seriously consider the Thames Estuary.

Quoting mayor (Reply 1):
but why couldn't Gatwick become the main airport for London?

Land locked in a high value neighborhood. Eventually (IIRC after 2020), they could use both runways together. But it would be tough to bring the transportation to Gatwick. For LTN, the challenge is getting out of London. Near the airport wouldn't be that tough of a challenge.

Will London rise up to its potential and build a large new airport... or ???

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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:38 pm

Why did I have the feeling that my Local MP and the "Think Tank" he's on is behind this.

The guy is a first class Tool!


Isn't Luton Airport on top of a hill, making expansion limited at best?
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:39 pm

The NIMBYs would have a field day !
 
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:47 pm

Quoting gilesdavies (Thread starter):
I think this idea makes so much sense, especially when were talking about location and its superior connections to the rest of the country compared to other locations in the London area, where current airports exist or have been proposed.

Come now, the tenor of the report is quite different than your spin:

Quote:

Author of the report and chief economist of CentreForum Tim Leunig – education secretary Michael Gove’s policy advisor – stated that the best approach would be to build a “new four runway Heathrow” west of the current site.

But he stressed that if that was not possible, Luton was the next best location.

“This airport is on the right side of London for the rest of the country, and can easily be linked with high quality connections to London, the M1, the West Coast mainline and the East Coast Mainline,” he said.

“There are disadvantages: the site is relatively hilly and Stansted would have to close. In addition, business and individuals that have located near Heathrow for access to the airport would need to relocate.

“For those reasons Luton is second best, but deserves to be considered.”


Those small details, like having to close STN and expecting much of LHR to relocate itself to the LTN area, make this a non-starter, just like Boris Island.

If anything, it's using an absurd LTN proposal to try to provoke discussion about LHR expansion, which is a non-starter at this point in time.

My 2p: Nothing will knock LHR from it's top spot for the foreseeable future.
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:53 pm

I've been to Luton at least 30 times, they have a good operation, things usually go VERY smooth there. please don't ruin that.

Besides, they don't have to room to expand
 
gilesdavies
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:54 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 4):
Isn't Luton Airport on top of a hill, making expansion limited at best?

Were not talking about directly on top of the existing airports site... In the Area of Luton or Bedfordshire/Hertfordshire border area.

Quoting by738 (Reply 5):
The NIMBYs would have a field day !

I think a four runway airport built on St. Albans and Harpenden's doorstep would be great for the towns. It would make the UK's most expensive towns to buy a house outside of London even more desirable!  
Quoting mayor (Reply 1):
Not all that familiar with with it all, but why couldn't Gatwick become the main airport for London? Is there room to expand, there?

Gatwick is south of London, so its catchment area is limited to an extent...

While an airport built North of London opens up the airport to people living north of London too, where the UK's other major urban areas are. Luton lies on the M1, which is the UK's main North/South artery road to and from London. Cities like Birmingham, Coventry, Leicester, Derby, Sheffield and Nottingham would be only about 2hrs away by road transport and not have to travel around London on the M25 to get to these other airports.

Also the airport would be accessible to the UK's major North-South Rail links like the Midland Mainline and close to the West Coast Mainline.
 
tp1040
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:03 pm

I could see 6 parallel runways at Luton. Then close Heathrow, Standsted and Gatwick.

Silly idea? Of course, the idea of closing Heathrow is ridiculous.
 
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting gilesdavies (Thread starter):
if Heathrow cannot be expanded...

But Heathrow CAN be expanded (there's land, there's money, only some stupid villages and politicians blocking everything), so a new Luton is a stupid idea, they must have been drunk while creating that idea?
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OA260
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:20 pm

Hopefully this is just another pipe dream. Gotta love these "Think Tanks".
 
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 8):
Were not talking about directly on top of the existing airports site... In the Area of Luton or Bedfordshire/Hertfordshire border area.

So not far away from Cublington - haven't we been here before?
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:59 pm

LTN is just so far and I think STN would be a better choice because it is a bit closer in. LGW would be good as the train service is frequent and expedient. I do agree LHR needs help badly though. And you WILL have NIMBY's at LTN more so than the others. Just my take. I have never minded using LGW.
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:00 pm

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 10):
only some stupid villages and politicians blocking everything

Right...
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:08 pm

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 10):

Oh yeah, only some"stupid villages". What if that was your family home?! Have some consideration!!

I think personally from driving in the region and getting rail services Luton's infrastructure for transport would need to be improved drastically. Driving into London from there could be a nightmare with the M25...

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rfields5421
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:21 pm

While I'm not sure of details - this looks like some people are finally looking at the London airport problem somewhat like the decision to build CDG or NRT.

Quoting mayor (Reply 1):
but why couldn't Gatwick become the main airport for London?

Mainly because of some existing agreements that prevent expansion for a couple decades.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 4):
Isn't Luton Airport on top of a hill, making expansion limited at best?

As mentioned above - not an expansion of the current Luton Airport, but a new airport in the area.

Quoting Rockinflyer (Reply 13):
LTN is just so far and I think STN would be a better choice because it is a bit closer in.

I don't know a lot about London housing areas - but I'm assuming you mean the time to be transported out to the airport is the difference, because when I look on a map, the Luton Airport is closer by a few miles than Stanstead to central London.

CDG is a bit closer to central Paris. NRT is quite a bit farther out from the central area of Tokyo.

Both started out a bit difficult to get to, but the transportation infrastructure grew to eventually make them very accessible.
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:32 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):
CDG is a bit closer to central Paris. NRT is quite a bit farther out from the central area of Tokyo.

CDG at least to me is spatially closer to Paris than most of the London airports. But that is just my personal "space".

Now NRT is a great example. Further out, generally easier to expand, but people hated going there, even with transportation options. Given HDN now being "international" again, who really wants to go to NRT. Sort of like LGW to LHR.

The only way this makes sense is if they close LHR/LGW and force people to another airport. Otherwise they'll go to LHR and be done with it.

Personally I'd just assume see LCY be expanded to take the A380, but that's just me. *cough*
 
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):
Land locked in a high value neighborhood. Eventually (IIRC after 2020), they could use both runways together. But it would be tough to bring the transportation to Gatwick. For LTN, the challenge is getting out of London. Near the airport wouldn't be that tough of a challenge.

It's hardly landlocked, it has loads of room to expand on already owned land. They could however not use both runways they currently have due to lack of separation. 08L/26R was never intended to be a full time runway, and neither will it ever be. It's a standby runway and something that an airport like LGW needs, it operates the worlds busiest single runway, if it has to close it, it needs to be able to switch, and switch fast!

On the subject of Luton, people seem to forget that the wealthiest catchments in the UK are London AND the South East, build a new airport to the north of London and unless you chuck a huge amount of money at a high speed transport initiative, it'd never work. The South East has fast transport to both LHR & LGW (Railair, road etc), anything to the north of London means going through or around it, which at the moment takes a lot longer.

Don't forget, a London airport needs to serve the entire London & South East region, it's where LHR & LGW win at the moment.

LHR, unless you live in London, is poorly connected to the rest of the country. LGW is far better connected.
 
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:14 am

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 17):
Personally I'd just assume see LCY be expanded to take the A380, but that's just me. *cough*

Not a bad idea, given the area around LCY, except for Canary Wharf has, well, a rather less salubrious population. After all those riots, it would be a good idea to clear it out and put the land to more fruitful uses.
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:35 am

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 10):
But Heathrow CAN be expanded (there's land, there's money, only some stupid villages and politicians blocking everything), so a new Luton is a stupid idea, they must have been drunk while creating that idea?

Well, there are more than some "stupid villages" that have to be moved. Luton is not an alternative to LHR.

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 18):
LHR, unless you live in London, is poorly connected to the rest of the country. LGW is far better connected.

Not really. If LGW were to take over for LHR, there will have to be alot more neighbour pleasing, billions spent in upgrading the airport and it's connection to London. There is no way that it can be expanded to meet what would effectively be tripling of the number of flights and passengers.

If you think that the Heathrow Express is expensive we can only imagine what the costs will be if they try to connect LGW with London in the same manner that LHR's links with London.
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:44 am

Although not optimal, can't London do what NYC does and have the 3 airports serving it? It's a huge market, and in the absence one mega airport, why not have a few big ones?
 
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:46 am

This would be the same report which was discussed on here a few days ago:

https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/5581371/

Report:

http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/ima...cations/bigger%20and%20quieter.pdf


Considering that the Heathrow proposal put forward by PolicyExchange is flawed to such an extent that it would require the demolition of Terminal 5 and still not be a workable solution, it's no real surprise that the idea for Luton is also a little bit pie in the sky... to say the least.

Paragraphs like this worry me (on the suggested Luton site):

Quote:
That location, however, has two disadvantages. First, it is hilly, and although hills can be flattened it is not cheap to do so.211 Second, the site is currently occupied by Luton Hoo, a grade 1 listed building.

Honestly, I'm almost lost for words - has the author even looked at an OS map of the site they are proposing - I think all they've looked at is a road map!    You can't flatten a hill in a hilly or undulating landscape to make an airport, because then your airport is located in a dip below the surrounding terrain and it doesn't meet any of the ICAO, CAA or EASA regulations to allow planes to land there. Looking briefly at an OS map of the area, I would say that a new four runway airport would need to be sited around the 140-150m AMSL height so that take off and landing surfaces are all clear of hills - unless the plan envisages moving whole hills, in which case I'll stop laughing some time next week.

So they would somehow need to acquire a bit of soil to build the land up from as low as 100m AMSL in places and obliterate the Lea valley in the process. Say the average build up required was 15m (conservative I think), times by the footprint of the site (around 3km by 4km minimum for four 3km long parallel runways with enough terminal space to replace LHR, LTN and STN) and you get 180 million cubic meters of fill required. The weight depends on the density of material being used, but taking 1600kg/m3 as an average (of heavy soil and rubble) means 288 million tonnes of fill material would be required. Really it would only be feasible to even try moving this much material by installing a network of high speed, high capacity conveyors from near bye spoil sources. These can shift around 200,000m3 of material a day, not that I know of anywhere in a wide are around Luton which generates a fraction of that a week, let alone a day. Road hauling material in would generate fourteen and a half million 20t tipper truck journeys, that's one turning up every ten seconds non stop for five years. Rail is just as unfeasible, and more costly.

It's worrying to think that this sort of nonsense influences UK policy on such a vitally important issue to our economy.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
If anything, it's using an absurd LTN proposal to try to provoke discussion about LHR expansion, which is a non-starter at this point in time.

Sadly I don't share your optimism.


Dan  

[Edited 2012-10-15 17:51:48]
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kdhurst380
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:47 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 20):
Not really. If LGW were to take over for LHR, there will have to be alot more neighbour pleasing, billions spent in upgrading the airport and it's connection to London. There is no way that it can be expanded to meet what would effectively be tripling of the number of flights and passengers.

If you think that the Heathrow Express is expensive we can only imagine what the costs will be if they try to connect LGW with London in the same manner that LHR's links with London.

15 minutes to London Paddington on the atrociously expensive HEX, or an hour on the Tube for a more modest price to Leicester Square or similar central areas.

Normal commuter trains link to all areas of London, from LGW in around 35 minutes, outside of that maybe 50 minutes, at commuter train prices, many if not all with advance fares from about £3 if you book in advance (that can be as close as a few days beforehand)

The only way of getting to my home in Hampshire from LHR, is Railair, that's over an hour's travel and more expensive than rail from LGW.

The point I'm making is LHR's transport links are no better than LGW's, arguably, if you're in the South East, they're worse.
 
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:05 am

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 18):
On the subject of Luton, people seem to forget that the wealthiest catchments in the UK are London AND the South East, build a new airport to the north of London and unless you chuck a huge amount of money at a high speed transport initiative, it'd never work. The South East has fast transport to both LHR & LGW (Railair, road etc), anything to the north of London means going through or around it, which at the moment takes a lot longer.

Don't forget, a London airport needs to serve the entire London & South East region, it's where LHR & LGW win at the moment.

LHR, unless you live in London, is poorly connected to the rest of the country. LGW is far better connected.

Amen to that. And lets not forget that most of the wealth in the 'saarfeast' ex-Greater London is south of the Thames.
The bad news for LGW rail links is that the DfT, Southern, Thameslink et. al. are exceedingly myopic wrt. to the BML to the point where only 2 stations count: Brighton and East Croydump. They don't give a damn about the rest of the network and have sacrificed the dedicated GatEx to improve the service to Brighton and East Croydon. They could have increased capacity on the BML withouth sacrificing GatEx by returning west coastway bound traffic to its original (and faster) route to the Arun Valley via Dorking, and they should be reopening Uckfield-Lewes to get east coastway traffic off the BML at South Croyon.
 
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:49 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
Although not optimal, can't London do what NYC does and have the 3 airports serving it? It's a huge market, and in the absence one mega airport, why not have a few big ones?

It is quite optimal as there is civilization in the area outside than just Central London and these people 'sometimes' fly also, very much like EWR serves NJ in addition to Manhattan, JFK and LGA serve Long Island well, and HPN, albeit a lot smaller than all other 3, serves the Northern suburbs of NYC.
Similarly, the San Francisco Bay area is just as fine with SFO, OAK and SJC. I don't want to imagine the mess that SFO would be and the mess it would be to get there from across the Bay if OAK and SJC were not there to absorb a strong minority of the traffic.

I don't know why people are always picking on each other when thinking on London airports. All what all these airports need is a better connection to Central London, and ideally, inter-airport trains, and it should not be a problem at all. LHR being high-yielding is an overrated idea, imho. London is the high-yielding destination, not LHR. Then, if the business travelers can get to the City and other parts of central London effectively (barely the case with LHR and not at all with other airports) and have convenient airport lounges and services, I doubt they would care less which one of the 4 London airports they fly in and out. LHR is busy enough being BA's hub, there needs to be more airlines at other airports so that they flock at LHR in smaller numbers.
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:11 am

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 18):
t's a standby runway and something that an airport like LGW needs, it operates the worlds busiest single runway, if it has to close it, it needs to be able to switch, and switch fast!

Eventually they will move one runway to allow a taxiway.

Or not... but somehow London needs more capacity.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
Although not optimal, can't London do what NYC does and have the 3 airports serving it? It's a huge market, and in the absence one mega airport, why not have a few big ones?

NYC works for they have one airport for *A (EWR), one for domestic O&D (LGA), and one that is more 'contested' (JFK). The issue for London is that splitting airports splits connections. That means some routes are short on transfer traffic that could make them viable (e.g., due to poorly timed connections as a mega airport is more likely to have the frequency). So a bunch of small airports favor hubs elsewhere. e.g., LGA feeds a number of US domestic hubs. Is that what London wants?

London right now has traffic split between LHR, LGW, STN, LTN, LCY, and BHX. While one can ignore the relatively low volumes of LCY, it is not to a hubbing advantage to have traffic so split. People find butter hubbing opportunities instead of switching airports.

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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:19 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 26):
butter hubbing

"BUTTER" hubbing??  



Sounds like a dairy operation
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Flyingfox27
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:41 am

Sometimes i wonder why its so hard over here, didnt an airport in Europe just dug up a war grave and church site to build a new runway without any NIMBY say at all? Forgot which one exactly but something like that made me think, well why dont we just do the same or is it because of better human rights in the UK?

I wonder if anything will really happen in our lifetime, 2030 at the earliest seems so far away and during that time the human population increases.
 
dstc47
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:16 am

Sometime the title of the topic gives you such a good laugh that actually reading it is an anticlimax!

I am off for a branded drink, often taken with soda, to settle myself down.
 
Qazar
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:59 am

How about an airport for each alliance:

Heathrow = OneWorld + Virgin
Gatwick = Star Alliance + some unaffiliated
Stansted = Skyteam + some unaffiliated
Lutton = All low cost airlines

Just a thought...

Cheers!
 
r2rho
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:06 am

Quoting gilesdavies (Thread starter):

Oh dear, you just opened a can of worms.... how dare you propose anything other than LHR?

Quoting gilesdavies (Thread starter):
I think this idea makes so much sense, especially when were talking about location and its superior connections to the rest of the country compared to other locations in the London area,

I also thinks it makes sense, but expanding (or rather, building a new airport adjacent to) the existing site. LTN is in a good location with respect to catchment area, with dual independent runways and improved transport connection it would provide a good alternative to LHR (not as replacement, but complementary). Yes I know all the stories about those hills, and I think they are exaggerated.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):
Will London rise up to its potential and build a large new airport...

Realisitically, no. That's why the best we can hope for is expansion of existing facilities. Yes, LON will lose connectivity and gradually lose its place as a global hub, eventually becoming mostly O&D. But it is the natural consequence of 30+ years of complete lack of infrastructure planning in the UK (and not just regarding airports), and the UK shows no sign of changing that anytime soon.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):
existing agreements that prevent expansion for a couple decades.

The LGW agreement preventing a 2nd runway from being built lasts only until 2019, that's just around the corner. Even if there were no restrictions and planning for a 2nd runway started tomorrow morning, nothing would happen until 2020 anyway. So I say, start planning for it, so LGW can have a much needed 2nd runway once the agreement expires.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 20):
we can only imagine what the costs will be if they try to connect LGW with London in the same manner that LHR's links with London.

  I happen to find LGW better connected than LHR, it wouldn't need additional transport infrastructure (but improvement of the existing one would be nice).
 
deltal1011man
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:36 am

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 15):
What if that was your family home?! Have some consideration!!

why? I can't tell you how much relocation happened when ATL built runway #5 (10/28)
but do i feel bad? nope. One big rule when buying a house....If its near an airport be ready to have to deal with this. The only people that should have any right to complain are people who were there first. (and my guess most of the NIMBYs at LHR weren't there before the airport......)


and its why i live a good 45 min south of ATL.     
 
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:03 am

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 15):

You never driven Luton to London then, it's M1 all the way, don't touch the M25
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tayaramecanici
Posts: 256
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:03 am

RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:17 am

There is plenty of land to the south of LTN, which lays in Hertfordshire. The govt can bring in an ordinance to take hold of this land for national economic security from the NIMBYs and build the 2nd parallel runway. The affected parties compensated handsomely for the grief of eviction, i am sure they won't mind moving if paid a attractive premium for their houses. This won't be difficult, since Fipping houses and valuing your worth per the property price, is now a core British value.



In addition to the advantages of connectivity, there are many other economic benefits of developing LTN into a hub airport. With closure of Vauxhall at LTN, there are huge brownfield land available alongwith skilled workforce to set up aircraft MRO related biz or other JIT manf. Cambridge and Milton-Keynes are within a radius of 20miles, the Technology and Knowledge based industries in this area will also get huge boost making it attractive for many global biz involved in these industries to relocate to UK, due to improved connectivity. This belt between Luton-Northampton is more like the south midlands.
A larger LTN will benefit both the Finance sector (22mins to St. Pancras by midland mainline non-stop) and the Enginnering/Technology/Pharma manufacturing sector.

[Edited 2012-10-16 04:20:22]
''You are as good as your nearest competitor'' Bob Crandall.
 
avion660
Posts: 131
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:52 pm

RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:47 pm

Quoting tayaramecanici (Reply 34):
There is plenty of land to the south of LTN, which lays in Hertfordshire.

Yes, but has been pointed out already there's a damn great river valley there. There's a 60m height difference from the airport to the valley floor. Go further south? Flatten Harpenden? Well, that's unlikely and is no longer Luton either. Hardly building adjacently to Luton any more.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 31):
Yes I know all the stories about those hills, and I think they are exaggerated.

They're not. I cycle through the area regularly, and I've noticed the hills!. To the north is a series of valleys and ridges that fall away to Hitchin, to the south the Lea/ Lee river and to the east are rolling hills all the way to Stevenage.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 22):
Honestly, I'm almost lost for words - has the author even looked at an OS map of the site they are proposing - I think all they've looked at is a road map!

Agreed. For everyone out there: look at a 1:25000 scale map such as on www.streetmap.co.uk You'll notice all the 40-50m contour differences throughout the area. Didn't they give up on the idea of re-aligning LTN's current runway because of the problem of filling in a single valley to the NE.. one of the smaller ones?
 
bluesky73
Posts: 518
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:36 pm

RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:47 pm

Sorry if this is silly question but if BA has so many slots at LHR how would slots be divided up at an expanded Luton airport? I imagine BA would not like this idea of expanding a London airport where it has no footprint?

The Luton idea is good but I think it's still cheaper to build a third runway at LHR- oops apologies I know this isn't LHR topic.

I think Luton is better option than Gatwick and certainly Stansted.

With the way government make decisions runways are going to be U shaped due to so many u-turns! Would be interesting landing though  
 
LGWGate49
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:45 pm

RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:10 pm

Okay so here is my   

Build a second runway at LGW.

With the Thameslink rail programme, trains can run direct to LGW from the east coast main line from 2018.
From 2019 the Midland Mainline will be electrified up to Sheffield, which also runs to LGW via the Thameslink route.
The west coast main line is already connected to LGW via Kensington / Clapham Junction.

Take away the Gatwick Express paths (people can join existing Southern trains instead at Victoria) and you could get a 20 or 30 minute service from every major national railway line into the airport (including the Great Western Line via Reading).

Move all of *A to LGW.

Problem solved!     
Look for the ridiculous in everything, and you will find it
 
SCQ83
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:34 pm

I just been in LTN a couple of times, and I found particularly annoying when reaching it by public transportation, you have to take a bus from the train station itself (compared to LCY, LHR, STN and LGW - and I think it is the same for new SEN? - where you just hop from the subway/DLR/train directly onto the airport). I hope they have solved that!
 
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Revelation
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:26 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 26):
NYC works for they have one airport for *A (EWR), one for domestic O&D (LGA), and one that is more 'contested' (JFK). The issue for London is that splitting airports splits connections.

Your statement points out why LON and NYC are different: in NYC one of the three major alliances is OK with being at its own international hub (EWR), instead of being at the same international hub as are the other two (JFK), and thus giving up the better connections that they could have if they also had a major presence at JFK.

In LON, everyone hubs at LHR, and the second best candidate LGW is already well covered by the "home team" (BA), making it hard for the other alliances to consider starting a hub there.

It also brings up the fact that none of the other alliances have a local UK player big enough to strike out on its own like CO did when they decided to build up EWR.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 31):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):
Will London rise up to its potential and build a large new airport...

Realisitically, no. That's why the best we can hope for is expansion of existing facilities. Yes, LON will lose connectivity and gradually lose its place as a global hub, eventually becoming mostly O&D. But it is the natural consequence of 30+ years of complete lack of infrastructure planning in the UK (and not just regarding airports), and the UK shows no sign of changing that anytime soon.

Well said, but IMHO it really isn't about "infrastructure planning" per se, it's about the will of the people as reflected by their politicians.

There's been plenty of plans floated, it's just that they've all been soundly rejected.

The people have clearly felt that they prefer to keep centuries-old villages intact and not displace residents above keeping LHR's role of being a premiere international hub airport.

They've also made it clear that they aren't willing to pay to replicate LHR's facilities elsewhere where they have enough space to tack on another pair or two of runways.

Part of this is because they won't feel the economic pain in one jolt, it'll be a gradual process over many years just as you say.

It's not like DEN where Stapleton was allowed to degrade over time and just had to be replaced, and it was relatively easy to find a couple hundred square kilometers of greenfield land within a reasonable driving distance of the city.

You can say it'd be a lot more like HKG where they would have to find some sort of greenfield site (even if it means creating the field!) big enough for decades of growth, and building the road and HSR links needed to make it workable, and then forcing everyone to abandon LHR. I can't see how such a thing would ever pass muster.

Boris Island comes close to being such a plan (with the obvious negative of putting the airport in a high-fog area) and it's got no traction at all.

It seems to me that DEN and HKG felt it was absolutely vital to their future to retain their role as airline hubs and thus pay the huge price to do so, whereas the people of LON as a whole don't feel the same.
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brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 23):
The point I'm making is LHR's transport links are no better than LGW's, arguably, if you're in the South East, they're worse.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 26):
butter hubbing

I thought this was something else....

Quoting Qazar (Reply 30):
Stansted = Skyteam + some unaffiliated
Lutton = All low cost airlines
Quoting Qazar (Reply 30):
Heathrow = OneWorld + Virgin
Gatwick = Star Alliance + some unaffiliated
Stansted = Skyteam + some unaffiliated
Lutton = All low cost airlines

Ok. So if you need to connect to another airline that is not in the same alliance, what are going to do?

Quoting r2rho (Reply 31):
I happen to find LGW better connected than LHR, it wouldn't need additional transport infrastructure (but improvement of the existing one would be nice).

The beauty of LHR is that you can connect to any other country in the world. The pure fact is that LHR is London's main international airport and LGW is too constricted to be considered as a replacement for LHR or even as a substitute. When I lived in London there was quite a few airlines at LGW that have since moved to LHR. The facts that you LGW lovers always trot out is that it is easier to get to. But I ask you, what are you going to LGW for? Correct me if I am wrong, did the rail service not just get reduced from a dedicated non-stop service to just another stop on the commuter line run a few years back.

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 15):
I think personally from driving in the region and getting rail services Luton's infrastructure for transport would need to be improved drastically. Driving into London from there could be a nightmare with the M25...

You only have to go on the M25 if you are going around London.

Basically reality is that LHR is the logical option that most of the airlines that operate out of LHR have realized it was and still is a better airport than any other options. Why do you think that as soon as Bermuda 2 was ended there was a mass exodus to LHR by alot of the carriers that could get slots to land there. That is the reality of the situation and if the slots at LHR were to be expanded don't you think that more airlines would follow?
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
ZaphodB
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:56 am

RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 40):
Correct me if I am wrong, did the rail service not just get reduced from a dedicated non-stop service to just another stop on the commuter line run a few years back

You're not wrong, and I'd hate to arrive at LGW in the morning rush now with 2 cases and try to get on a faux-GatEx to Victoria that started at Brighton and has been jammed to the gills since Haywards Heath, or a Thameslink to London Bridge (which were always packed before reaching LGW in peak hours). LGW's rail advantage has been eroded for sure and will dissappear completely when Crossrail connects the city, west end and canary wharf to Heathrow ... but again, that will be hell with luggage because it's not a dedicatged service.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10764
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:27 pm

IMO, LGW is far more practical than LTN for a second runway.

Firstly, there is the issue already raised that LTN is on a hill, and LGW is flattish.

Secondly, LTN would require an extension from Luton Parkway, (whereas LGW already has a rail station).

There is also the issue of the road links into LTN. I know that there is the the M1. However, I was recently traveling to LTN from Aylesbury on a double decker bus. The roads in that area are clearly incapable of accepting the level of traffic that this project would entail.

The only option would be a major road building programme, and probably major demolition work. The present NIMBY issue at LHR would be a walk in the park.
 
Cipango
Posts: 1498
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:39 pm

I think they're on the right train of thought. Luton might not be the most ideal as the infrastructure has been designed for its current passenger load and it would be a messy project to expand it.

However apart from the Thames Estuary idea and the plan for a third runway at LHR, the minds in the right place.

Just my two cents.
Let's fly! Unless it's on a CRJ 200, then I'll stay down here.
 
A320ajm
Posts: 587
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:57 pm

RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:58 pm

Quoting EZYAirbus (Reply 33):
You never driven Luton to London then, it's M1 all the way, don't touch the M25

True, my mistake. I am from the North so pass Luton Airport on the M1 but live in West Sussex so automatically think about the M25. If you were going to anywhere in South in London I'd presume you'd have to take the M25, but I am not 100% sure as I have only been living here 6 weeks!!!

Apologies,
A320ajm
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Lufthansa
Posts: 2639
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:13 pm

Okay now here is a really controversial idea.

Firstly, does the UK have an airforce base with some long runways close to London?
Because if it does, they can be a bit sneaky, build a new airforce base... use the powers of
its for the defence force to ram it through (people can't ask questions as to exactly WHY the defence force
needs to do something, they can complain but they can't get in the way) and then turn a RAF base into
a new civil airport.


OR.... build a new greenfield airport for the RAF, and have some very interesting "Hangers" that could just happen,
to with minimal work, be converted into terminals. Use the justification that in these economic times the government
must attempt to keep its costs down so it's signed long term leases with these new "terminals' to major airport operators,
and just keep a bunch of RAF tankers/ Hercules/ troop transporters or a maintenance base at the far end of one side.

Problem solved. No ability of the courts to interrupt, string it out, get the NIMBY's in the way or any other obstructionist.
 
User avatar
mayor
Posts: 6218
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RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:31 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 32):
The only people that should have any right to complain are people who were there first. (and my guess most of the NIMBYs at LHR weren't there before the airport......)

I'd be willing to bet, that although the people weren't there first, that their villages were there before LHR.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 45):
Firstly, does the UK have an airforce base with some long runways close to London?

Not really.

The few air force bases or former air force bases closer to London than Luton, Gatwick, Stanstead are remnants of WWII airfields and never grew to long runways.

The two that would most meet your criteria are Mildenhall EGUN/ MHZ - and Brize Norton - EGVN/ BZZ - and both are twice the distance from central London as Luton, Stanstead or Gatwick.

And neither has any passenger transportation infrastructure.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
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cageyjames
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:08 am

RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 45):
Firstly, does the UK have an airforce base with some long runways close to London?

No, they use those stupid Harriers which require small runways like LCY if at all.   
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: "Luton Should Become London's Main Airport..."

Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:05 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 45):
Firstly, does the UK have an airforce base with some long runways close to London?

Heathrow was an Air Force base that is close to London... 
Rush forever Closer To My Heart

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