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Gonzalo
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Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:08 pm

Maybe this is not a comparable situation, but with the ( very ironic ) case of the Argentinian Ship "Libertad" ( "Freedom"), which has been seized by creditors in Ghana, and considering that the Argentinian Government is deeply involved with AR, could an AR aircraft be seized by creditors in a similar way ??
Are there any rule ( or precedent? ) about a situation where a country in default suffered a situation like this ??

Thanks in advance for your info.

Rgds.
G.
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iFlyLOTs
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:11 pm

I'm going to say no, because as of right now it still is a private entity, but if they do knock out the remaining private investment then I would assume that it could be seized.
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
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LOWS
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:42 pm

I think this happened with Air Nauru in Australia, didn't it?
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:00 pm

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 1):
I'm going to say no, because as of right now it still is a private entity, but if they do knock out the remaining private investment then I would assume that it could be seized.

I'm not sure, I could be totally wrong, but AFAIK, on December 17, 2008, the Argentinian Parliament voted and approved a Law declaring AR as "a Public Utility Service / Company ", and the expropriation of the airline from previous owners ( Spanish "Grupo Marsans" ), and since then AR is a fully State Owned airline. I think there are still some appeals in court presented by GM, but the owner of the airline, is the State of Argentina ( please someone correct me if I'm wrong !! ).

Besides, I will not be totally surprised if one of the creditors tries to seize an AR plane ( despite the result can be adverse ), because the creditors also play with the damage to the image and PR of Argentina.

Rgds.
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jfk777
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:12 pm

Theorectically an A340 could be seized in say Madrid, Miami or Sydney, but are those planes leased or owned by AR( if owned they probably have debt on them). AR's A340 are a combination of used Cathay Pacific, used AF and others. A "naval" ship is clearly owned by the state but an airplane even if used by a state owned airline has airplane financing.
 
cargolex
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 2):
I think this happened with Air Nauru in Australia, didn't it?

More than once, I believe.

Air Canada also repossessed some leased airplanes from Mexicana in 2010 shortly before the shutdown.

But Nauru's problems and the problems of Mexicana related directly to the financing and operation of these aircraft. In the case of something like the Libertad - if a similar move were made against AR's planes, it would be creditors aiming at assets owned by the Argentine government for debts unrelated to those assets, which is a different kind of situation.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:22 pm

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 1):
Besides, I will not be totally surprised if one of the creditors tries to seize an AR plane ( despite the result can be adverse ), because the creditors also play with the damage to the image and PR of Argentina.

Rgds.

I suppose its going to depend on the law of the land it could happen in. I know for example, American can't fly to
israel because TWA used to, and there was some kind of case of ex TWA staff not being paid entitlements (i think it
was staff could have been other israeli firms etc). Anyway the court ruled in favour of them in israel but the same bunch tried in the USA and American won. The risk was, if AA touched down in israel its aircraft could be seized to pay these unpaid debts. Now in many countries, one can sue the government in the exact same manner as an individual or a company. If this is the case, an AR aircraft may very well be considered an asset of the Argentine government and thus fair gain. Of course, anything involved in international trade also complicates things further, and, unlike upsetting a company upsetting another government is something other governments don't take lightly. It can result in other far reaching implications like trade wars, rival companies expelled, tariffs on the other countries products etc. In reality things don't happen in isolation. Just look at attitudes towards upsetting the chinese if you wan't a further example! In other words, when it comes to dealing with other governments things can quickly get out of hand, depending on the nature of the relationship. But that doesn't mean it won't happen either. Turkey just proved it was willing to risk upsetting both Syria and Moscow by forcing down a Syrian flight the other day. And if any small country without much influence dared to let its citizens and company's do the wrong thing by france (think hijack its ships) you know they'd know about it.

So I'd say, yes, it's definitely possible. But far more likely from a nation that has less to lose by upsetting Argentina.

[Edited 2012-10-16 11:26:33]
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:36 pm

The real question I think for Argentina is how long is it going to be able to keep on behaving like this before things happen like, they AR touches down and nobody will refuel the aircraft until the fuel is paid for in advance, and ditto for sending parts etc to them.

When that starts happening en masse to Argentina's firms aboard, that will seriously discourage any foreign investment.
Now even though AR has huge resources in its country, it will need both technology and investment to access those.
Something that becomes increasingly difficult when your country starts to look like a risky place to do business.
You see this very much so in Africa, with some countries being able to have very successful investment in their resource sectors, while others, who could have huge amounts of money following into the country, are seen as just too higher risk and safer places like Canada and Australia attract the investment despite their much higher cost of doing business.
 
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:40 pm

Sorry if this is off-topic: There's a 747-400 since months on tarmac at VVI airport, that was supposed to start service for 5L VVI/MAD/VVI.

As I understand, this aircraft formerly operated for AR and was leased to 5L for the indicated service route.

In the meantime, 5L's operations collapsed, and the aircraft is scorging on the hot+humid VVI tarmac.

a) Who is the owner of the aircraft;
b) Has the Bolivian Government "seized" (here we are on topic) the aircraft to recover it´s (from 5L) debts?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:00 pm

AR might be a 'flag carrier,' but they are not responsible for Argentina's debts. Now, I know Argentina helps out AR, but as far as the assets, they must be seized relative to the debt on such an asset (e.g., A340). As others have already noted...

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 5):

But Nauru's problems and the problems of Mexicana related directly to the financing and operation of these aircraft.

  

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 3):
I will not be totally surprised if one of the creditors tries to seize an AR plane ( despite the result can be adverse ), because the creditors also play with the damage to the image and PR of Argentina.

Do not respect the law of property for a shortly remembered image PR to Argentina? The sailing ship was owned by the government of Argentina. ,

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 7):
AR touches down and nobody will refuel the aircraft until the fuel is paid for in advance, and ditto for sending parts etc to them.

Is AR in arrears? If not, their vendors will happily make a profit selling to them on current terms. IF AR is in arrears, then it is cash and carry (or pre-paid).

Lightsaber
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Gonzalo
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):
The sailing ship was owned by the government of Argentina. ,

The government ? You mean the State I guess... the government is just the temporary administrator of the State, until the next election / government. And according to all the articles I saw this recent days with the "Libertad" case, all the assets can be seized except Embassies and military assets like planes and ships ( the Ghana court says the Libertad is a training vessel and is not considered as "Military" like Argentina is claiming, allowing all this embarrassing show ).

Rgds.
G.

[Edited 2012-10-16 13:50:45]
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LOWS
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:38 pm

Maybe I'm missing something here, but is Argentina having difficulty paying its bills again?
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting LOWS (Reply 11):
Maybe I'm missing something here, but is Argentina having difficulty paying its bills again?

It's the same debt of the default in 2001/2002. IIRC, in 2006 the Argentinian government "offered a payment" to the creditors, but paying only 30 % of the money. Some creditors accepted the deal, loosing 70 % of their investment, some others didn't. The ones that didn't accept are since then claiming the payment of the 100% of the capital, and doing things like this one with the ship in Ghana.

Rgds.
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lightsaber
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 10):
The government ? You mean the State I guess...

We Gringos use the terms interchangeably.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 10):
the Ghana court says the Libertad is a training vessel and is not considered as "Military" like Argentina is claiming, allowing all this embarrassing show

But it is the midshipman training vessel which is a military function... ugh.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 11):
Maybe I'm missing something here, but is Argentina having difficulty paying its bills again?

Not yet. Argentina is having one public asset seized due to prior defaults. However, the Argentinian bond rating is in free fall again. "Heavily Constrained" per Fitch:

A credit rating of B from Fitch puts Argentina in the same category as Ukraine and Cameroon.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...eavily-constrained-fitch-says.html

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eta unknown
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:13 pm

Air Zaire frequently had their DC-10's impounded at BRU for failure to pay their Belgian pilots. And didn't Air Zim have an issue this year at LGW?
 
PA515
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:06 am

Gonzalo, the answer to your question is probably no, because AR may not own any aircraft used on international routes.

A planespotting website that produces Airline Fleet Lists and Production Lists shows AR with 39 active aircraft. There are 11 A340's and 28 737-700/800's.

All but three of the A340's are leased and all but two 737-700's and two 737-800's are leased. The two 737-800's appear to be owned by Macquarie Air Finance and are probably leased. The two 737-700's are likely only used on domestic routes. The three A340's were leased by CX from 2001 to 2011, from Boeing I believe, who obtained them from SQ as a trade in. Not sure who owns them now.

PA515
 
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:10 am

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 14):
Air Zaire frequently had their DC-10's impounded at BRU for failure to pay their Belgian pilots.

I believe they also had this B707 seized at LIS for many years. It has now been removed and broken up though.
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/028998.html

Cheers
micha
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:27 am

Quoting PA515 (Reply 15):
Gonzalo, the answer to your question is probably no, because AR may not own any aircraft used on international routes.

A planespotting website that produces Airline Fleet Lists and Production Lists shows AR with 39 active aircraft. There are 11 A340's and 28 737-700/800's.

All but three of the A340's are leased and all but two 737-700's and two 737-800's are leased. The two 737-800's appear to be owned by Macquarie Air Finance and are probably leased. The two 737-700's are likely only used on domestic routes. The three A340's were leased by CX from 2001 to 2011, from Boeing I believe, who obtained them from SQ as a trade in. Not sure who owns them now.

That is precisely the scenario that I have in mind. The creditors can go to a Chilean/Brazilian/Uruguayan court, and ask the authorities to seize one of the two new 738 owned by AR ( AR is using one of this at least in the route to SCL ). Even if the authorities dismiss the case at the end, the damage to the public image of AR and Argentina could be really BIG.

Rgds.
G.
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PA515
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:50 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 17):
That is precisely the scenario that I have in mind. The creditors can go to a Chilean/Brazilian/Uruguayan court, and ask the authorities to seize one of the two new 738 owned by AR ( AR is using one of this at least in the route to SCL ). Even if the authorities dismiss the case at the end, the damage to the public image of AR and Argentina could be really BIG.

Don't get too excited, the two 737-81D's delivered new to AR in Sep 2012 (LV-CXS and LV-CXT) are leased from AWAS.

PA515
 
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:55 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 17):
The creditors can go to a Chilean/Brazilian/Uruguayan court, and ask the authorities to seize one of the two new 738 owned by AR ( AR is using one of this at least in the route to SCL ).

AR does not operate the B738s into SCL. Currently, AR operates only one weekly B-737-700 flight on the AEP-SCL route. All other flights on the AEP-SCL and EZE-SCL routes are operated by Austral.
 
MD11junkie
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:23 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
Maybe this is not a comparable situation, but with the ( very ironic ) case of the Argentinian Ship "Libertad" ( "Freedom"), which has been seized by creditors in Ghana, and considering that the Argentinian Government is deeply involved with AR, could an AR aircraft be seized by creditors in a similar way ??
Are there any rule ( or precedent? ) about a situation where a country in default suffered a situation like this ??

Thanks in advance for your info.

Rgds.
G.

No. Judge Thomas Griessa (in 2009, IIRC) has already ruled that AR is not a state entity it is still a private company and does not apply within the Vulture Funds' rights to seize AR assets. They tried this joke in MIA and NYC when president Fernandez took an AR plane.

Saludos,

2-1.  

[Edited 2012-10-17 05:24:32]
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MD11junkie
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:31 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 3):
I'm not sure, I could be totally wrong, but AFAIK, on December 17, 2008, the Argentinian Parliament voted and approved a Law declaring AR as "a Public Utility Service / Company "

Again, NO.

Congress voted to rule AR a company of PUBLIC SERVICE which is of benefit to the nation. Not your definition.

edited message
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
SCL767
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:45 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 7):
The real question I think for Argentina is how long is it going to be able to keep on behaving like this before things happen like, they AR touches down and nobody will refuel the aircraft until the fuel is paid for in advance, and ditto for sending parts etc to them.

Well now AR's president is studying implementing a new measure called "Plan Aeroparque". Under this plan, all airlines operating into AEP will have to transfer all of their flights over to EZE and only Aerolíneas Argentinas/Austral would be permitted to use AEP.
Impulsan el uso del Aeroparque solamente para Aerolíneas y Austral
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:39 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 25):
Well now AR's president is studying implementing a new measure called "Plan Aeroparque". Under this plan, all airlines operating into AEP will have to transfer all of their flights over to EZE and only Aerolíneas Argentinas/Austral would be permitted to use AEP.

Why I'm not surprised ???  

And the dirty war to save AR continues....

G.
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abrelosojos
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:31 pm

I want to see how many anti-AR, anti-Argentina stuff you start every week  .

Saludos,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
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Gonzalo
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:20 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 27):
I want to see how many anti-AR, anti-Argentina stuff you start every week

This thread, or "stuff" in your words, is not "anti" nothing. I'm only asking a legitimate question, considering the circumstances of Argentinian government under the pressure of the creditors. That is just a fact since the frigate is still in Ghana, after three weeks.

In any case, if you want to see all the threads I started this week regarding AR, you can go here :

Rumor: AEP Will Be For AR/AU Only : Effect On LA/JJ/G3? (by Gonzalo Oct 19 2012 in Civil Aviation)

If you want to see the threads I started this week and should be "anti AF" ( according your criteria ) , you can go here :

AF A319 Almost Took Off From Taxiway (by Gonzalo Oct 18 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Or you can go here and check my thread "anti SK" ( again, under your criteria ) of the week :

Shouldn't SAS Eliminate Long Haul Routes? (by Gonzalo Oct 18 2012 in Civil Aviation)

I even have an "anti Gulf Carriers" thread this week :

Al Baker : Gulf Carriers "No Longer No 1" (by Gonzalo Oct 18 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Enjoy !!!

G.
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checksixx
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RE: Could An AR Plane Be Seized By Creditors?

Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:40 am

Aircraft are seized worldwide every day in situations like this...try a google search.

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