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Hawaiian763
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AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:02 pm

Air Canada Express's Dash 8-400 are coming to Western Canada to replace some of the CRJ routes flying out of YYC and YEG. The Dash 8's are expected to start flying out West starting in February 2013 on some key routes including YYC-YEG, YYC-YMM and YEG-YWG.

Glad to see the Q400's out west here finally, it'll be nice to see some newer planes instead of the same old Dash 8-300's and CRJ's that we see in YYC a lot.

http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=590
 
9252fly
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:36 pm

No big surprises in the route selection for the Q400s other than YQU, things must be booming there again in the oil patch. This is just the start and what will be interesting to watch is the eventual expansion into the YVR hub.
 
RP TPA
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:54 pm

Will AC be removing an equivalent number of CRJs from the fleet, or using them on other routes?
 
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yyz717
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:03 pm

Presumably these new Q400 routes will be served by the recently ordered 6 Q400's, unless some of the current 15 based at YYZ will migrate west.

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 2):
Will AC be removing an equivalent number of CRJs from the fleet, or using them on other routes?

When Jazz ordered the 6 Q400's, they reported that 9 CRJ's would be removed from service as the Q400's were delivered. Hence, total seat count would remain about the same.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
9252fly
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 2):
Will AC be removing an equivalent number of CRJs from the fleet, or using them on other routes?

For each month from February to April,2 DH4 will be added while 3 CRJ2 are removed and returned to the lessors. Once the transition is complete Jazz will have 25 CRJ2 left in the fleet comprising of the 15 factory orders from 2004 and the 10 that came from Midwest around 2002. Jazz still has options for another 9 DH4 that must be exercised by the end of this December subject to AC agreement to add them to the CPA. Those would likely replace the Midwest CRJ2 and/or some of the DH1,many of which are over 25 years old.
 
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canadianpylon
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Thread starter):
The Dash 8's are expected to start flying out West starting in February 2013 on some key routes including YYC-YEG, YYC-YMM and YEG-YWG.

Calgary to Edmonton, and Edmonton to Fort Mac make sense, but Winnipeg to Edmonton? That is almost as long as the YYZ-YQM flights, and those flight times are 15-20 minutes longer on a DH4 as opposed to CRJ. That is a LOOONG time in a Dash 8!

Given my druthers and choice, which I ultimately have, I wouldn't want to sit beside the props for more than an hour or so. Unless the price for the flight is substantially less (I doubt it), I can't see any advantage for AC compared to WS on this route.
Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
 
flyb
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:58 pm

Would be nice to see them add flight to new destinations or city pairs.
 
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c172akula
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:11 pm

We're going to be seeing a lot more Q400's in YYC over the next few years, with this announcement and of course WestJet Encore bringing them into the fleet as well.
 
flyb
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:14 pm

That's an understatement if the day.
 
9252fly
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:32 am

Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 5):
I can't see any advantage for AC compared to WS on this route.

It's all about frequency for business travellers. They honestly couldn't give a rat's bottom about the aircraft,so long as there is frequency and the Aeroplan status points get credited. WS can continue to chase low yield passengers to fill their planes,the premium passengers ends up at AC. This will change somewhat with Encore,but not as much as some would think.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:41 am

In a way, I hope Air Canada Express replaces their CRJ-200's with the Q400's on the SEA-YYC route.
 
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canadianpylon
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:01 am

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 9):
It's all about frequency for business travellers.

If they do a like for like replacement of CRJ to Dash 8, then AC has 3 flights per day and WS has 2. That isn't exactly a huge advantage, frequency wise.

Both airlines still will continue route a lot of PAX through YYC.

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 9):
They honestly couldn't give a rat's bottom about the aircraft,so long as there is frequency and the Aeroplan status points get credited.

And I've been reading on other sites that lots of people are complaining about the long YYZ-YQM flights, simply because of the extra time of the Dash 8 flights.

I think the Dash 8's will be an excellent addition to the AC fleet in YEG, specifically to YXE, YQR, YYC, YMM, YQU and YLW. Anything beyond 450 miles isn't as desirable.
Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
 
9252fly
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:54 am

Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 11):
And I've been reading on other sites that lots of people are complaining about the long YYZ-YQM flights

Are those same passengers the business or leisure type?

Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 11):
That isn't exactly a huge advantage, frequency wise.

Again,it's frequency and Aeroplan status combined. It's likely to be a bit of a dogfight next year. AC could exercise it's(QK) additional DH4 options and shuffle aircraft capacity/types on routes to keep a grip on the premium yield if need be. We are soon to be entering round one of what will a battle of wills,should be interesting to watch. I'm reasonably confident WS will do well with Encore and the added competition is a good thing.
A bit of a wild card is AC LCC on the domestic front,that being the conversion of A319 to a high density layout,comparable to WS primary aircraft the 73G in capacity. Of course it's a few years away.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:34 am

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 9):
It's all about frequency for business travellers. They honestly couldn't give a rat's bottom about the aircraft,so long as there is frequency and the Aeroplan status points get credited. WS can continue to chase low yield passengers to fill their planes,the premium passengers ends up at AC. This will change somewhat with Encore,but not as much as some would think.

= Well, AC could do all the chasing it wants, but its passenger delivery model so far does not make it money consistently. WS seems to be doing just fine on the other hand.

Personally, I think it is a misstep for AC network planners (not the most creative out there sorry). These markets would be better yielding, but it sort of signals to WS and makes WS now have better information before they address the Encore launch.

Saludos,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
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canadianpylon
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:42 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 12):
Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 11):
And I've been reading on other sites that lots of people are complaining about the long YYZ-YQM flights

Are those same passengers the business or leisure type?

It was by people who flew the route regularly, so I'm going to assume that it was business pax. VFR pax tend to be infrequent travellers. Just an assumption on my part, though.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 13):
Well, AC could do all the chasing it wants, but its passenger delivery model so far does not make it money consistently. WS seems to be doing just fine on the other hand.

Exactly! Changing the planes from 50-seater CRJ to a 70-seater Dash 8 on the same frequency and slower aircraft only offers 1 advantage, additional capacity. I wouldn't think that the YEG-YWG market was capacity constrained.
Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
 
RP TPA
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:44 pm

Don't forget, this is only the first salvo. As WS (and "Encore") make their response, AC and the regionals will respond accordingly. And vice-versa.
 
brilondon
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 15):
Don't forget, this is only the first salvo. As WS (and "Encore") make their response, AC and the regionals will respond accordingly. And vice-versa.

This is not the "first salvo" but a response to WS's Encore which is also starting next year. I find that AC is not the market leaders they once were but just followers.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
yegbey01
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:49 pm

I expect them at some point to reintroduce YEG-YLW and YEG-YYJ. These are good candidates for the Q400.
 
Viscount724
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:18 am

Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 11):
And I've been reading on other sites that lots of people are complaining about the long YYZ-YQM flights, simply because of the extra time of the Dash 8 flights.

But AC has a big advantage in frequency with 4 or 5 daily Q400s YYZ-YQM compared to just one WS 737. That makes a big difference for business traffic.
 
threepoint
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:41 pm

The allure of Aeroplan points and Altitude status is no longer what is was. This past year has seen the former harder to redeem and the latter more difficult to obtain. The one-loyal AC natives are restless, with many of them opting to switch allegiances and/or to simply select a carrier based upon time & price; loyalty be damned.
Jazz will retain passengers in markets where there is little alternative, but on most of the aforementioned routes, there is certainly a choice.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
9252fly
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:17 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 19):
The one-loyal AC natives are restless

With the upcoming changes to Aeroplan's loyalty program in 2013,you may be correct. On the other hand,I do see it as being fairer with the 3 different Elite levels recognizing the value of those members in respect to the revenue they generate for AC on an annual basis.

Allocation of Aeroplan redemption seats within the AC network is something that I would personally like to see being more accessible. There is clearly an arrangement between Aeroplan and AC as to how much inventory is available. AC,like any airline with a frequent flyer redemption program monitors and adjusts it program to be competitive,whether one agrees is another matter.

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 17):
I expect them at some point to reintroduce YEG-YLW and YEG-YYJ.

The last time AC tried those routes with a CRJ,they never lasted very long. They would certainly need to have additional DH4 to enter those markets again. Next summer's schedule should be fascinating to see. I do wonder if AC would be crazy enough to put the DH4 on the YVR - YXY route as it would probably be one of the world's longest.
 
yegbey01
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:48 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 20):
Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 17):
I expect them at some point to reintroduce YEG-YLW and YEG-YYJ.

The last time AC tried those routes with a CRJ,they never lasted very long. They would certainly need to have additional DH4 to enter those markets again

I don't think it had anything to do with whether there's enough demand to support the flights. Westjet offers a lot of seats from YEG to both YLW and YYJ. It was a decision that AC made to route most of its east-west traffic within Western Canada through YYC.
 
9252fly
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 21):
It was a decision that AC made to route most of its east-west traffic within Western Canada through YYC.

That I admit does make sense. The question then is,has that view changed?
 
abrelosojos
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
But AC has a big advantage in frequency with 4 or 5 daily Q400s YYZ-YQM compared to just one WS 737. That makes a big difference for business traffic.

= You keep on supporting AC with these statements, but I still do not see this "frequency" and "big difference for business traffic" being translated to $$$ for AC. Sure, business markets need frequency, and WS has done well enough - example, launching LGA with 8x / day., etc. Does YYZ-YQM really constitute a business market (I don't know) - and does it need the 5 frequencies? It seems AC does not really understand its market and a route S-Curve!

All that is needed from WS to "kill" off AC is a stellar loyalty program - probably, one of the few areas it seems where AC can still hold their own.

Saludos,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:33 pm

What to me is interesting is does WS now "attack" YYZ or simply smile and welcome competition in the West knowing it is significantly more likes.

Saludos,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
9252fly
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 23):
Does YYZ-YQM really constitute a business market (I don't know) - and does it need the 5 frequencies?

YQM is the third largest east coast market after YHZ and YYT. As far as frequencies,my guess is that the market is there and the yield demand curve supports the flights.
 
Airontario
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 25):

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 23):
Does YYZ-YQM really constitute a business market (I don't know) - and does it need the 5 frequencies?

YQM is the third largest east coast market after YHZ and YYT. As far as frequencies,my guess is that the market is there and the yield demand curve supports the flights.

Exactly. It's very rare that you will find an empty seat on any of those frequencies going to YQM from YYZ or YUL.
 
yegbey01
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:36 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 22):
That I admit does make sense. The question then is,has that view changed?

I think AC's strategy must evolve. Just like they have no choice but offer flights from YTZ to YUL to hold on to market share. With Encore presumably offering more point to point flights, AC will need to get creative in terms of what new nonstop markets they need to serve. Does the YEG-YYC market really require 21 dailies on the props every day or can they re-capture some of the YEG-YLW market that is exclusive to WestJet.

Or what if Encore starts flying YMM-YWG and YMM-YYJ....I think you will see that AC's market share will drop like a stone out west (at least regionally speaking anyway)
 
9252fly
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 24):
What to me is interesting is does WS now "attack" YYZ or simply smile and welcome competition in the West knowing it is significantly more likes.

It's not that simple. Yes,WS is seen by western Canadians as their airline,gone are the days where the perception was of the scrappy underdog. I don't think WS will sit back without launching it's own routes initially in the west as they introduce the new DH4 fleet type. Once WS reaches critical scale with the DH4,I do expect them to utilized at the YYZ hub. Someone had to fire the first salvo in the west with the DH4;it's like a game of poker and playing bluff. It's honestly going to be fascinating watching WS DH4 vs AC DH4 tactics!
 
slashd0t
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:59 pm

With the addition of the new T fares on ASIA/EMEA flights, I suspect AC will also lose a lot of frequent international travellers.. I suspect a lot of these travellers will start going United and to get 100% status miles.

I know I'm planning on moving my 5-6 overseas flights per year to United after this move.. Most companies will pay the lowest fare, especially on across the pond trips .. I'm not willing to pay $500 more per trip just to get miles.. It's crazy.

Poor move AC ..  
/.
 
9252fly
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:06 pm

Quoting slashd0t (Reply 29):
Poor move AC ..

Make sure you don't get burned making the move as Star Alliance carriers tend to align many of their products and services. So what may seem a good move now may not end up being the case later on. It's a personal decision and your travel profile and needs may differ from those of other travellers.
 
slashd0t
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 30):
Make sure you don't get burned making the move as Star Alliance carriers tend to align many of their products and services. So what may seem a good move now may not end up being the case later on. It's a personal decision and your travel profile and needs may differ from those of other travellers.

To be fare, I'm not switching frequent flyer programs, just who I choose to fly on my International flights.. I still prefer AC's program as it gets me into the United lounges for free and I do a lot of US travel..

Just means instead of me going YEG-YVR-NRT, or, YEG-YVR-SYD or YEG-LHR, I'll go YEG-SFO-NRT (or YEG-SEA-NRT on ANA) or, YEG-SFO-SYD or YEG-ORD-LHR..

Switching frequent flyer programs is a huge pain that I don't think I would be willing to do ... I would be willing to swap who I book my flight with and which metal I fly on .. (United's international product is much better than domestic IMO).
/.
 
yegbey01
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting slashd0t (Reply 29):
I know I'm planning on moving my 5-6 overseas flights per year to United after this move.. Most companies will pay the lowest fare, especially on across the pond trips .. I'm not willing to pay $500 more per trip just to get miles.. It's crazy.

But for TATL flights, they have all been part of the profit sharing mechanism between LH, AC and UAL, right?

Asia is a different story
 
slashd0t
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 32):
But for TATL flights, they have all been part of the profit sharing mechanism between LH, AC and UAL, right?

Doesn't matter as I'm booking 100% through United and flying on 100% United (or SkyWest) metal.. AC isn't even in the equation...
/.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 25):
YQM is the third largest east coast market after YHZ and YYT. As far as frequencies,my guess is that the market is there and the yield demand curve supports the flights.
Quoting airontario (Reply 26):
Exactly. It's very rare that you will find an empty seat on any of those frequencies going to YQM from YYZ or YUL.

= I do not know that particular market and am not arguing on that. If you read my comments, you will notice what I say: WS obviously knows what the frequency/yield curve mix is - and pursues it appropriately. From what I would think, a market like YQM in French Quebec would naturally be its weakest.

Saludos,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:28 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 28):
Once WS reaches critical scale with the DH4,I do expect them to utilized at the YYZ hub. Someone had to fire the first salvo in the west with the DH4;it's like a game of poker and playing bluff. It's honestly going to be fascinating watching WS DH4 vs AC DH4 tactics!

= Agreed. But, I'd think that AC would have been smarter to focus on the East and further limiting PD. If it thought smartly, it could have curtailed PD's growth. Why not deal with that "problem" before spreading yourself thin? But then again, AC network "strategy" has always baffled me ...

Saludos,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
Viscount724
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 34):
I do not know that particular market and am not arguing on that.

That's obvious from your comment below.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 34):
From what I would think, a market like YQM in French Quebec would naturally be its weakest.

Moncton (YQM), metro area population about 139,000, is in the province of New Brunswick, not Quebec, and at least 75% of the population are native English speakers, although many are bilingual. Virtually all residents of the minority whose mother tongue is French also speak English.

[Edited 2012-10-21 13:40:02]

[Edited 2012-10-21 13:40:59]
 
9252fly
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 34):
WS obviously knows what the frequency/yield curve mix is - and pursues it appropriately.

You are likely correct,keeping in mind WS frequency is limited in the YQM market by primarily two things:
1. Aircraft too large for frequency in the above market,essentially flooding the market would drive their yields down.
2. AC is very strong in eastern Canada and will likely always be,the reverse is true for WS in the west.
Once WS builds up it's regional DH4 fleet things will change. It's firm order is for 25 DH4,delivered between June 2013 and the end of 2015. It's their options that are the wild card and they may be somewhat late to the party in the east due to PD having done a good job of establishing themselves.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 35):
I'd think that AC would have been smarter to focus on the East and further limiting PD.

The challenge for AC is they cannot get anymore slots at YTZ and neither does it seem they ever will as the Port Authority feels PD is what is best long term for the island airport. AC therefore probably accepts the reality and focuses on the main hub at YYZ. It's presence at YTZ is what I call a token one.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 35):
Why not deal with that "problem" before spreading yourself thin?

AC strategy is not too problematic in that it's not so much they are spread thin,as it is more a case of determining how to evolve in what is a rather fast changing and dynamic Canadian regional market. Looking at AC response to the PD in Ontario as an example,they compete with them on frequency and utilize different capacity DH8 aircraft depending on the market and time of day,ie,DH1 DH3 DH4 CRJ and CRA. My suspicion is that PD operates certain flights that are overkill from a capacity perspective for what the market demands,perhaps hoping to build up market share.

In the end,it's just business and never should be seen as personal. I as already mentioned find it interesting to watch. What I'm most curious to see is if PD can eventually proceed with an IPO,or will the outcome be something we least would have suspected.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:44 am

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Thread starter):
YEG-YWG.

Cant they do a E90 or E75 or at least a CRJ-705 on this route? WS will kill AC in this market.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:47 am

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 25):
YQM is the third largest east coast market after YHZ and YYT

Its the third largest cuz WS has stimulated the market. Third largest in the Maritimes??? I mean really??? Is that a big thing?
 
9252fly
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 38):
Cant they do a E90 or E75 or at least a CRJ-705 on this route? WS will kill AC in this market.

AC has been in that market for years operating strictly CRJ up to 4 times a day in the summer and 3 in the winter. They have never as far as I can recall ever offered J or business class on the route. So no,they will not be slaughtered on the route if they put the DH4 on,rather,I suspect they'll make more money. I know,it's counter-intuitive!
 
Viscount724
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:37 am

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 40):
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 38):
Cant they do a E90 or E75 or at least a CRJ-705 on this route? WS will kill AC in this market.

AC has been in that market for years operating strictly CRJ up to 4 times a day in the summer and 3 in the winter. They have never as far as I can recall ever offered J or business class on the route.

Going back further AC had 2-class service YEG-YWG and with much larger aircraft. For example, more than 30 years ago (April 1981) AC had 3 daily 727-200 nonstops YEG-YWG and CP had 2 737-200s. If memory correct the AC 722s had 12 F and 120 Y class (or similar).

[Edited 2012-10-21 18:46:02]
 
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longhauler
Posts: 6488
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:34 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 39):
Its the third largest cuz WS has stimulated the market.

You're kidding right? AC has been flying to YQM longer than you've been using a toilet! And far longer than WS was even a dream!

LCCs have flown in and out of Atlantic Canada for decades. As there are not a lot of other options, (limited rail or a hellish drive), the market was always there.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 39):
Third largest in the Maritimes??? I mean really??? Is that a big thing?

It appears to be, as everyone keeps harping on it. But technically, YQM is second largest in the Maritimes, after YHZ.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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canadianpylon
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:41 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
But AC has a big advantage in frequency with 4 or 5 daily Q400s YYZ-YQM compared to just one WS 737. That makes a big difference for business traffic.

4x/5X Daily vs 1X Daily is a very large difference, whereas 3X Daily vs 2X Daily is not.

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 37):
The challenge for AC is they cannot get anymore slots at YTZ and neither does it seem they ever will as the Port Authority feels PD is what is best long term for the island airport.

Ya, 'once bitten, twice shy.' I'm sure the Port Authority remembers how Air Canada abandoned them in the past.
Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:44 pm

[

Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 43):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
But AC has a big advantage in frequency with 4 or 5 daily Q400s YYZ-YQM compared to just one WS 737. That makes a big difference for business traffic.

4x/5X Daily vs 1X Daily is a very large difference, whereas 3X Daily vs 2X Daily is not.

Any frequency advantage in a market where business traffic is important usually means higher yields for the carrier with the higher frequency.
 
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yyz717
Posts: 15781
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:43 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 37):
The challenge for AC is they cannot get anymore slots at YTZ and neither does it seem they ever will as the Port Authority feels PD is what is best long term for the island airport. AC therefore probably accepts the reality and focuses on the main hub at YYZ. It's presence at YTZ is what I call a token one.

I'm sure the TPA would welcome (or strongly consider) a request by AC for more slots. I'm surprised that AC has not commenced YOW-YTZ (Porter's largest market) nor EWR-YTZ (purportedly Porter's highest yielding route).

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 39):
Its the third largest cuz WS has stimulated the market. Third largest in the Maritimes???

The Maritimes is a small piece of Canada, and shrinking slightly every year. About 6% of Canada's population and perhaps 5% of economic activity, much of that government generated. The population is also highly distributed among numerous small cities. So yes, YQM is the 3rd largest market, but still a very small one (by Ontario standards).

Quoting longhauler (Reply 42):
AC has been flying to YQM longer than you've been using a toilet! And far longer than WS was even a dream!

There is an argument to be made that WS stimulates market growth when it enters a market, a la Southwest.

On a note related to the thread topic, I wonder if AC will route a Q400 YYZ-YQT-YWG to rotate the Q400 fleet from East to West v.v. as they do with the CRJ fleet.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:07 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 45):
There is an argument to be made that WS stimulates market growth when it enters a market, a la Southwest.

Perhaps in the beginning, but I wouldn't think so now. The "Southwest Effect" occurs, as Southwest enters the market with fares far less than its competitors ... or, enters a market not previously served at all. Westjet doesn't do that. They rarely are cheaper than AC. What WS does do well, is capitalize on AC's higher costs and makes a profit at a fare AC can not.

It has always been my opinion that WS keeps AC honest, and fares in check.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 45):
So yes, YQM is the 3rd largest market, but still a very small one (by Ontario standards).

I still say YQM is the second highest market in the Maritimes, other than YHZ there is nothing bigger.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
aamd11
Posts: 931
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RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:33 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 45):
I'm sure the TPA would welcome (or strongly consider) a request by AC for more slots. I'm surprised that AC has not commenced YOW-YTZ (Porter's largest market) nor EWR-YTZ (purportedly Porter's highest yielding route).

It's interesting to look back at the re-allocation of the 16x CO slots that UA chose not to take up last year. The TPA had to decide which of the incumbent carriers to award the additional 16x slots to. The TPA decided that it would rather hand the slots to the carrier that was most likely to create new routes into YTZ. For that reason, PD was awarded the additional slots.

The TPA I'm sure would like to spread the slots around to other carriers, including AC, to allow for a more diverse operation and increased competition on key routes. I can't imagine any airport authority that wouldn't like to have more than one or two airlines operating... Clearly, they felt at the time of the last slot award that there was more to be gained by having PD add new routes or frequencies, rather than just having AC duplicate an existing route (YOW or EWR). The 16 slots would only afford 8x daily departures in each direction, which would be uncompetitive on either YOW or EWR as it happens.

The TPA is hoping (having had some studies conducted) that it will be in a position to add some more slots in the next few years. There's discussion of the terminal facilities being expanded to include two new gates to accommodate such a possible increase in departures. Will be interesting to see if any new carriers grab slots in such a future allocation... or whether AC grabs another batch to be able to add YOW, for example.

Back on the original subject... I think AC's DH4 allocation is indicative of what WS will likely do with their DH4s starting next year. I'm not expecting a vast array of new routes for Encore... I suspect Encore will be subbed into markets where 737s are currently deployed. If any of the WS DH4s end up at YYZ, I would put a couple of dollars on LGA seeing some DH4s, for example... Just my $0.02
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4323
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:39 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 44):
Any frequency advantage in a market where business traffic is important usually means higher yields for the carrier with the higher frequency.

= Sure. That is normal airline economics.

However, to educate myself, I decided to dig a little further and have been shocked at what I learned. I keep on hearing about how all the problems with AC is its cost structure - which I actually think glosses over the fact that AC's strategic and commercial plan is severely lacking (get some new blood in there!!!).

So anyways, I have always heard that AC is a yield leader in North America and all the frequencies translate into better yield. Now we know that it does not translate to better profitability - but yield is what I thought was given. But, look what I found:

YTD 2012 AC Yield: 19.1 http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/investor/documents/2012_MDA_q2.pdf
YTD 2012 WS Yield: 18.7 http://westjet2.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=695

Given WS has no J class, no flat-bed business class, no intercon flying, no real loyalty program, this is pretty impressive and speaks volumes to WS' network strategy.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 46):
It has always been my opinion that WS keeps AC honest, and fares in check.

= Agree completely.

Saludos,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: AC Express Q400's Coming To Western Canada

Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 48):
Given WS has no J class, no flat-bed business class, no intercon flying, no real loyalty program, this is pretty impressive and speaks volumes to WS' network strategy.

Yields are normally higher on shorthaul routes due to their higher cost structures than on longhaul intercontinental widebody routes with much more competition than WS faces on most of their routes.

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