AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

LAXDESI · Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:29 pm

Air India offers five Boeing 777LRs for sale.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...-for-sale/articleshow/16880243.cms

The largest operators of 772LRs are EK, Delta, Qatar, and AC. Will any of them be interested? How about Ethiopian? Any airline that does not operate this type but could use it for the right price?

Since AI has eight 772LRs, they must be planning to keep three. What current routes would the LRs make more sense than 77W or 788? They would need 772LRs if they are planning on offering non-stop to SFO/LAX.

Stitch · Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:32 pm

Haven't they been trying to sift them for years?

migair54 · Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:37 pm

If they are planning to keep 3 for long range flight like SFO or LAX, they will be only available to do 1 daily non stop with that frames. nothing else.

Maybe Qatar can grab them to solve the problem they have now with the delays of the B787, they will need to have a interior reconfiguration but that´s much faster than getting new ones. So it could be a fast solution.

AC, I don´t think so.....

EK, maybe but I also doubt it.

What about TK??? They can get them to replace the B77W that they have on lease from Jet Airways. it´s not the same model but pretty similar.

spiritair97 · Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:39 pm

What does this mean for routes that they operate? EWR, for example. I doubt EWR and JFK could both support 77W service, unless they are planning to send the 788 to EWR. (Or maybe JFK)

mnik101 · Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:40 pm

I'm surprised that AI never utilized the capabilities of the 77L. They could have done SFO and LAX with them. The market for those flights are certainly there.

Then again is anyone surprised at the incompetence of AI's management.

aeroblogger · Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:47 pm

USA-India routes in general aren't particularly high yielding, and AI is no SQ. AI would have hemorrhaged money on a LAX or SFO nonstop on the 77L. I'm thankful AI management is competent enough to not try such a folly...

And if AI management has no use for the 77L (the least efficient aircraft in the fleet), they might as well get rid of it.

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 3):
What does this mean for routes that they operate? EWR, for example. I doubt EWR and JFK could both support 77W service, unless they are planning to send the 788 to EWR. (Or maybe JFK)

There is a massive New Jersey/New York to India market. AI will likely deploy 77Ws to both EWR and JFK, with the 788 a possibility to JFK in the off-season.

PC12Fan · Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:49 pm

If Delta doesn't snatch these up like a $20 bill on the ground, I'll be surprise. Unless of course there are some details that we're not aware of.

Polot · Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):
If Delta doesn't snatch these up like a $20 bill on the ground, I'll be surprise. Unless of course there are some details that we're not aware of.

The details are that they are from AI. That alone is probably enough to send carriers away (Note: I am not claiming that AI are unsafe- I am referring to the bureaucratic mess it can be dealing with them and the GoI).

LAXDESI · Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
Haven't they been trying to sift them for years?

I believe this is the first time they are trying to sell them.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 5):
There is a massive New Jersey/New York to India market. AI will likely deploy 77Ws to both EWR and JFK, with the 788 a possibility to JFK in the off-season.

Currently, AI deploys 772LR on BOM-EWR sector. It takes about 40 hours for a given aircraft to make the BOM-EWR-BOM sectors as the aircraft sits for about 9 hours at EWR. Two aircraft should be sufficient to do the above routes, with the third serving as a spare. I am sure they are using the spare on some other routes.

77W may be too big and payload limited on the above route, and the current 788 may not have the legs.

[Edited 2012-10-19 15:19:24]

cageyjames · Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):

If Delta doesn't snatch these up like a $20 bill on the ground, I'll be surprise.

What routes? I wasn't aware DL had a long range aircraft problem. Or does DL just pick up any used aircraft these days?

roseflyer · Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:06 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):
If Delta doesn't snatch these up like a $20 bill on the ground, I'll be surprise. Unless of course there are some details that we're not aware of.

Delta does have the long range routes that a 772LR works well on and we all know they are eager to get a good deal on efficient used airplanes. I wouldn't be surprised to see them interested.

VC10DC10 · Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:06 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 6):
If Delta doesn't snatch these up like a $20 bill on the ground, I'll be surprise.

I thought DL's management has said that it doesn't really intend to expand its widebody fleet for the next few years. Am I mistaken?

MaverickM11 · Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:10 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 10):

DL needs the 77L for one route only, 2 if you count DXB

[Edited 2012-10-19 15:12:05]

jfk777 · Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:13 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
DL needs the 77L for one route only.

Delta needs the 777LR's for much more then one route, after 5000 miles the LR is better then an ER. ATL to Dubai and J'berg are two. LAX to Sydney is another where the LR is superior. Detroit to Hong Kong is another.

MaverickM11 · Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):

DTWHKG is gone, and it was often flown by the ER anyway. DL could add a couple more ULH routes before needing additional shells. Sure it could pick them up if the price is right, but it doesn't have a need for them any time soon.

LAXDESI · Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:28 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 2):
Maybe Qatar can grab them to solve the problem they have now with the delays of the B787, they will need to have a interior reconfiguration but that´s much faster than getting new ones. So it could be a fast solution.

It will also be easy for the ministry and bureaucrats to deposit their gift baskets directly in Middle East banks.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
Delta needs the 777LR's for much more then one route, after 5000 miles the LR is better then an ER.

I thought the crossover point was closer to 3,000 nm. Can someone confirm this? So for the right price, B772LR is a better option than 772ER.

Viscount724 · Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:29 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 15):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
Delta needs the 777LR's for much more then one route, after 5000 miles the LR is better then an ER.

I thought the crossover point was closer to 3,000 nm. Can someone confirm this? So for the right price, B772LR is a better option than 772ER.

If that was true Boeing have sold far more than 58 -200LRs in the 12 years since the program was launched. There are very few routes that require the LR's capabilities.

CX Flyboy · Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:35 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 5):
USA-India routes in general aren't particularly high yielding,

CX considers the Indan-USA routes to be quite high yielding. Most of our Indian flights are timed for connections to Chicago, LAX and New York and a premium product put on the Indian flights to provide more of a seamless level of long haul product/service so to say they aren't high yielding is not correct. Not high yielding for AI perhaps but that says a lot doesn't it?

Gr8Circle · Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:36 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
What current routes would the LRs make more sense than 77W or 788?

VVIP flights?

jfk777 · Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:40 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
If that was true Boeing have sold far more than 58 -200LRs in the 12 years since the program was launched. There are very few routes that require the LR's capabilities

Many airlines have no use for the LR and use their ER 777 to their extreme limits, Continental's EWR to HKG is the best example of that. Flying time was 15 hours and 50 minutes. AA's flight from ORD to Dehli has also over 15 hours with a 772ER. The main two reasons teh LR has sold so little are its bigger brother the -300ER and the very capable -200ER. The 777LR is the newer 747SP, it was never suppose to sell 600 planes like the 777-300ER has.

Turkish350XWB · Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 2):
What about TK??? They can get them to replace the B77W that they have on lease from Jet Airways. it´s not the same model but pretty similar.

They got replaced with own B77Ws a few years ago.
But i also was thinking that these planes could fit very well to TK
1. Thinner routes to South America (GRU, CCS, BOG)
2. Ultra long haul (direct Australia ops ?)

At least very well suitable for my TK plans.

jfk777 · Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:54 pm

SAA would be a good operator for then 5 777 if they are in decent condition.

fun2fly · Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:03 am

Interesting options for many airlines depending on condition I'd imagine. LR is an expensive dog new, but might be interesting to some operators of an older A340 or what not to swap out for better fuel and pax experience at a discount used price. Hell, even DL to retire some 744's if the price is right.

LAXDESI · Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:09 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19):
Many airlines have no use for the LR and use their ER 777 to their extreme limits, Continental's EWR to HKG is the best example of that. Flying time was 15 hours and 50 minutes.

Keep in mind that 772LR has a list price that is about $32 million more than 772ER. If one can get the AI 772LRs for the price of comparably used 772ERs, then it makes sense to fly them than 772ER on many long haul routes.

I have not run the numbers using my model for B772LR and B772ER. However, Widebody's numbers show that B772LR burns about 5% less fuel than B772ER on a 6,000 nm mission with passenger only payload. Both are about equal in trip fuel burn at MSP(max. payload) on a 6,000 nm mission, but 772LR can carry lot more cargo. Perhaps a crossover point of 5,000 nm for passenger only payload and much lower distance with full cargo in favor of 772LR.

Btw, LR is about 5% (16,000 lbs.) heavier than ER, but has 15% higher MTOW.

LAXDESI · Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:35 am

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 20):
2. Ultra long haul (direct Australia ops ?)

IST-SYD is about 8,100 nm, well within the 9,400 nm range of 772LR. Is there enough high yield O&D and connecting traffic to make it viable?

Stitch · Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:56 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
Delta needs the 777LR's for much more then one route, after 5000 miles the LR is better then an ER.

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 15):
I thought the crossover point was closer to 3,000 nm. Can someone confirm this? So for the right price, B772LR is a better option than 772ER.

I believe Widebodyphotog's numbers showed it was better out beyond 2000nm.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
If that was true Boeing have sold far more than 58 -200LRs in the 12 years since the program was launched.

Boeing didn't sell many more 777-200ERs in that period (61), which implies that demand for the long-range 777-200 family had already been mostly filled by then. Market demand had shifted to short-and-medium range aircraft (A330-300). Also, airlines that ordered the 777-200LR either did not fly the 777-200ER or they did, but choose to order the 777-200LR, instead, when it came to top up 777-200 family orders (from 2002 to 2012, no customer who ordered a 77E also ordered a 77L and vice-versa).

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 23):
Keep in mind that 772LR has a list price that is about $32 million more than 772ER. If one can get the AI 772LRs for the price of comparably used 772ERs, then it makes sense to fly them than 772ER on many long haul routes.

My library finally updated their subscription to the aircraft value databases, so AI's 2007-2008 deliveries are worth an average of $105 million. A 2008 777-200ER delivery is worth about $91 million.

yellowtail · Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:14 am

Actually we have forgotten one carrier that might be interested....LA.
LA could use their range...

brad330 · Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:17 am

Please Qantas take these 77L's! EK can maintain them with the new partnership. QF are getting rid of all but 9 744's. With no 788's coming to QF this could be perfect!

QFi:
10x 333
5x 77L
9x 744
12X

vaus77w · Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:42 am

Quoting brad330 (Reply 27):

Please Qantas take these 77L's! EK can maintain them with the new partnership. QF are getting rid of all but 9 744's. With no 788's coming to QF this could be perfect!

Not gonna happen. Ever.

sunrisevalley · Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:43 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 23):
However, Widebody's numbers show that B772LR burns about 5% less fuel than B772ER on a 6,000 nm mission

Below is the link to Widebody's chart. In the posting that accompanied this he made the point that the 77L had about a 3% better fuel burn/unit payload than the 777E at ranges beyond 2000nm

http://theaviationspecialist.com/777-200lr_er_super_pr_chart.gif

a36001 · Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:00 am

Hey,

Interesting read this. I was thinking, what is it about these aircraft condition that might (or might not) be questioned. Coz there was that Varig 777 that most airlines wouldn't touch with a ten foot barge pole a while back. What was it that was done or not done that would make some think they have not been treated well? is it too many hard landings or such or maintenance related? not that AI is a bad airline, just a general question. And because I'm Australian - QANTAS buy these planes!

[Edited 2012-10-19 20:02:42]

deltal1011man · Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:13 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
DTWHKG is gone, and it was often flown by the ER anyway. DL could add a couple more ULH routes before needing additional shells. Sure it could pick them up if the price is right, but it doesn't have a need for them any time soon.

DXB/SYD/HKG have been/were mostly LR stations.

Also it was used fairly heavy on ATL-NRT before it went (back) the the 747.

and Its unlikely Delta will pick these up. IMO when they add more 777s to the fleet it will come via a new order from Boeing(and i'd expect a mix of 300ERs and 200s. (not sure if they will do ERs or LRs....my guess is LRs....my hope is for ERs.))

gauravpai · Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:40 am

AI also uses the 777-200LR on the DEL HKG DEL BOM routing since a while I flew them last month was pretty surprised at how nice the service was

So if and when they sell will they upgrade or downguage HKG?

And what about ICN and NRT. Aren't they also run using 777 s ?

Cheers
Dr Gaurav Pai

RWA380 · Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:52 am

Quoting Mnik101 (Reply 4):
I'm surprised that AI never utilized the capabilities of the 77L. They could have done SFO and LAX with them. The market for those flights are certainly there.

AI has served LAX before, IIRC a 744 via FRA. I had a client take it once, never again. ten hours late, lack of service items in J, poor attitude of cabin crew and loss of luggage with eyeglass samples, (a guy from Oakley needs those). If such an ULH route worked n/s from the west coast to India, wouldn't somebody be flying it by now? UA from SFO? 9W was rumored to be looking at SFO several times, but still nothing.

gauravpai · Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:01 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 33):

9W actually flew for quite some months using their 777--300er on the BOM PVG SFO route

However the loads and yields were not good enough to keep the route running and it was withdrawn.

That was a surprise to many as it was the only BOM- CHINA NS connection and they were obviously selling tickets for both BOM PVG ;PVG SFO also in addition to the BOM SFO

So yeah it wasn't a rumour they flew a pretty decent service
Guess the timing was not right

Cheers

seabosdca · Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:33 am

Good luck to AI! There are only a few possible customers in the world, all of them top-flight carriers who may be skeptical of AI frames (again, not because AI maintenance is bad, but because AI/GoI bureaucracy is).

EK413 · Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:58 am

Quoting brad330 (Reply 27):
Please Qantas take these 77L's! EK can maintain them with the new partnership. QF are getting rid of all but 9 744's. With no 788's coming to QF this could be perfect!

QFi:
10x 333
5x 77L
9x 744
12X

I wish QF ordered the B77L/W but it ain't going to happen... The ship has sailed... Regarding the reduction of B744s would appear QF are presently struggling to maintain product across the network with the sole B744 2 class configure aircraft VH-OJD operating todays SYD-JNB QF63...

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 28):
Quoting brad330 (Reply 27):
Please Qantas take these 77L's! EK can maintain them with the new partnership. QF are getting rid of all but 9 744's. With no 788's coming to QF this could be perfect!

Not gonna happen. Ever.

Spot on....

Quoting a36001 (Reply 30):
And because I'm Australian - QANTAS buy these planes!

And because these aircraft belong AI QANTAS please don't buy these planes!!!

EK413

danielkandi · Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:21 am

sell to sas jk., but they dont wanna expand... and apparently havent got any funds to... a pilot told me yesterday...

Nimish · Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:24 am

Can anyone comment on how the 77L's operating costs would compare to AI's 744s? Considering that AI is considering revamping 5 744s for international service, would it be better to keep the 77Ls (reconfigured for high density) instead of these 744s? I would imagine that the 77L is probably 20-30% more efficient than the 747 even for 3-5 hour routes.

EK413 · Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:06 am

Quoting Nimish (Reply 38):
Can anyone comment on how the 77L's operating costs would compare to AI's 744s? Considering that AI is considering revamping 5 744s for international service, would it be better to keep the 77Ls (reconfigured for high density) instead of these 744s? I would imagine that the 77L is probably 20-30% more efficient than the 747 even for 3-5 hour routes.

I don't know the numbers and the economics of the B77L vs B744 but it definitely makes sense to revamp a B744 fleet which more than likely paid off as opposed to operating B77Ls with $$$ owing...

I'm sure someone can give us a technical breakdown of the 2...

EK413

behramjee · Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:29 am

With regards to which airlines would be interested, one has to first look into the configuration of these airlines operating a fleet of B77Ls versus AI.

AI operates a 3 class B77L which out of the current operators only EK does whilst QR/AC/DL all operate 2 class versions. Now in an ideal world, due to its rapid growth strategy, QR would be the hands on favorite to purchase these 5 birds however knowing what a tough bargainer Mr Baker is, he would only purchase it if AI pays for the cabin reconfiguration as well as per his current B77L 2 class product standards.

It would be very difficult for AI to sell these birds as a 3 class aircraft unless it reduces the price further to take into account the other airline's re-configuration cost !

Two other airlines which could be a dark horse contender and that too would probably take it in the current AI configuration are Saudia Airlines and Kuwait Airways. With regards to SV, they have officially announced that they are in 2013/14 going to be embarking on a major long haul expansion program hence these 5 B77Ls would be ideal to launch 3 weekly Toronto + increase JFK to a daily service and IAD to at least 4 times per week from JED/RUH.

As far as KU is concerned, one does not need to look any further to realize that this airline's fleet (except for the A320s) needs a total makeover due to the unfortunate mechanical aging state that it is in. KU can use the B77Ls to operate to JFK on a daily basis nonstop versus the current 3 weekly nonstop + 3 weekly via LHR combination which would take up 2.5 aircraft + use 1 dedicated for KWI-LHR daily + the other two on its FRA/CDG/FCO services replacing the AB6s! KU not only needs a fleet make over but also a major on board product face lift which as a stop gap measure these AI B77Ls will help provide.

CaliAtenza · Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:05 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 33):

Yeah I heard that AI flight really was terrible back then. But I know they have become much improved now.. I think they could try the flight again...

smi0006 · Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:56 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
DL needs the 77L for one route only, 2 if you count DXB

The 77L would be a perfect fit for a LAX-MEL service four days a week to bring the combined JV flights with VA out of MEL to daily to compliment SYD and BNE! Obviously doesn't justify 5... just a dream perhaps?

EK413 · Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:18 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 36):

Adding to my previous post a B744 is presently u/s explaining why OJD is operating International sectors this week...

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 42):

Perfect for VA to introduce daily SYD-AUH...

EK413

na · Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:07 am

As they have been storing some emporarily and trying to lease them out for years this is the logical consequence. Beautiful planes, the prettiest member of the 777 lineup, and like the A345, the prettiest member of the A340 range a niche product with very few customers.
Btw, Transaero also has just stored an older 777.

CXB77L · Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:45 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 15):
I thought the crossover point was closer to 3,000 nm. Can someone confirm this? So for the right price, B772LR is a better option than 772ER.

When you say cross-over, do you mean payload-range? Boeing has the 777 payload range charts here:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/startup/pdf/777_payload.pdf

which shows the crossover point at nearly 5800nm.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):
SAA would be a good operator for then 5 777 if they are in decent condition.

Highly unlikely, considering SA have a fleet of A340s and require the quad engines for hot/high performance. Also, routes to Australia with twins might require a deviation to comply with ETOPS requirements.

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 26):
Actually we have forgotten one carrier that might be interested....LA.
LA could use their range...

Maybe, but as LA don't have any 777s at present, I find it highly unlikely that they would get them.

Unfortunately, I think AI would find it extremely hard to move their 77Ls. I think only existing 77L operators might be interested in adding a few more aircraft to their fleet - provided, of course, that they are in good condition. I wonder how well looked after these planes are ...

Kaiarahi · Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:14 pm

I believe there was a discussion in an N.Z. thread about NZ considering leasing them to cover the B789 delays. If memory serves, there was an issue about incomplete maintenance records (in addition to reconfig costs - NZ is 2 class). (I've searched for the discussion without success.)

jfk777 · Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:19 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 45):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 21):SAA would be a good operator for then 5 777 if they are in decent condition.
Highly unlikely, considering SA have a fleet of A340s and require the quad engines for hot/high performance. Also, routes to Australia with twins might require a deviation to comply with ETOPS requirements.

The SAA argument of needing 4 engines because J'berg is "hot & high" has been made many times, but what about all the foreign airlines flying to J'berg with 777 and A330's ? Even SAA is getting A330-200. DL operates a daily J'berg to Atlanta nonstop with a 777LR. What is SAA going to order in 10 years when the A340-600 are old, Airbus and Boeing are NOT making 300 seat quads any more.

The route to Perth is probably the only one where 4 engines are important.

CXB77L · Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:35 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 47):
The SAA argument of needing 4 engines because J'berg is "hot & high" has been made many times, but what about all the foreign airlines flying to J'berg with 777 and A330's ? Even SAA is getting A330-200. SA)">DL operates a daily J'berg to Atlanta nonstop with a 777LR.

It doesn't matter what other airlines do, it matters what SA do. They have chosen to go down the route of using A340s as their primary long haul aircraft. If they were to get twins, then A330s are far more likely than the 777-200LR.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 47):
What is SAA going to order in 10 years when the A340-600 are old

Probably the A350-1000. It's true that 300-350 seat quads will be no more, so by then they'd order a 300-350 seat twin instead, but if a new 300-350 seat quad was available, I think SA would order that.

Turkish350XWB · Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:58 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 24):
IST-SYD is about 8,100 nm, well within the 9,400 nm range of 772LR. Is there enough high yield O&D and connecting traffic to make it viable?

No idea... But it would be the only nonstop flight from Europe to Australia. How long would that flight take and how much would be the saved time compared to other airlines
I checked the SQ flights from SIN to LAX. It is around 8800 miles (is aviation based on miles or on nautical miles ??) and takes eastwards around 16:30 hours with A345. The B772 is a bit faster and the distance is less (if you referred to miles). So i guess IST-SYD would be around 15:00 hours. Is that correct ??

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