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EK413
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:43 am

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 99):
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 64):
AI management did not order these planes. A politician ordered them with AI's money.AI management has been trying to get rid of these aircraft ever since they were delivered. First with lease, so that the loss taken would be less, but now with sale.Such is life when corrupt politicians run an airline.

I don't get it. Why would he order them? Why would he care what AI buys?

Like any corrupt politician there will always be light at the end of the tunnel... Just look at TG with their A333/A345/A346 fleet operating along side B772/B773... Why couldn't TG simplify their fleet, again politicians got involved...

EK413
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RickNRoll
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:07 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 100):
Like any corrupt politician there will always be light at the end of the tunnel... Just look at TG with their A333/A345/A346 fleet operating along side B772/B773... Why couldn't TG simplify their fleet, again politicians got involved...

Are you saying that Boeing and Airbus pay bribes?
 
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EK413
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:58 am

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 101):
Quoting EK413 (Reply 100):
Like any corrupt politician there will always be light at the end of the tunnel... Just look at TG with their A333/A345/A346 fleet operating along side B772/B773... Why couldn't TG simplify their fleet, again politicians got involved...

Are you saying that Boeing and Airbus pay bribes?

I'm not indicating Boeing or Airbus are corrupt I'm simply saying politicians can influence aircraft orders placed by national carriers... & I used TG as an example...

EK413

[Edited 2012-10-22 02:09:32]
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RickNRoll
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:02 am

I don't understand then what's in it for a corrupt politician to influence a sale? If they make their national carrier buy one particular brand or model, and the vendor isn't paying them a bribe, then how do they benefit?
 
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EK413
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:14 am

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 103):

This is just an example of a political influence...

Political influences sometimes are vital important for manufacturing industry. For example, IATA had introduced emission policy options in order to improve fuel efficiency and emissions for protecting environment (IATA, 2010). Otherwise, the companies need to pay huge fund. Therefore, some companies need to redesign the component such as engine and exhaust system. Moreover, some governments intervene international trade is another issue can not ignore, namely, recently Boeing suffered threat from Chinese government after United States arms sold to Taiwan.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/tran...ne-boss-vows-no-political-meddling

EK413

[Edited 2012-10-22 02:21:40]
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AirIndia
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:37 am

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 101):
Are you saying that Boeing and Airbus pay bribes?

its usually called 'felicitation' fees
 
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:04 am

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 105):
its usually called 'felicitation' fees

But why a bribe to buy a plane they don't want, when they also have planes for sale they do want?
 
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:08 am

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 101):
Are you saying that Boeing and Airbus pay bribes?

Absolutely. It is necessary to do business in places like India.

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 106):
But why a bribe to buy a plane they don't want, when they also have planes for sale they do want?

That's the thing - AI didn't need any more aircraft.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:32 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 107):

Corruption is alive and well everywhere...some places just bury the evidence better than others. Montreal is in the midst of a series of investigations delving into decades of price fixing and mob control over city contracts.

Just look at the cash being pumped into the US elections...billions of dollars being donated mostly by corporations and billionaires. What they are buying is influence and most of the big ones finance both sides.

Why let the GOI and AI have all the fun...?
What the...?
 
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Stitch
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 103):
I don't understand then what's in it for a corrupt politician to influence a sale? If they make their national carrier buy one particular brand or model, and the vendor isn't paying them a bribe, then how do they benefit?

Perhaps they have an interest in companies that provide local support to those frames (maintenance, spares, etc.). Also, AI's 777-200LRs are three-class birds when they should have been two-class based on customer traffic patterns. So perhaps they get free First Class travel for themselves and their family/associates/friends (which itself can be a form of "felicitation" in order to win other business).




Quoting lightsaber (Reply 98):
Taking on 788s while there are parked 77Ls just strikes me as weird...

AI should re-configure the 777-200LRs to a two-class configuration in order to lower their CASM and better match traffic demand, which appears to be primarily Economy. Increasing density from 3+3+3 to 3+4+3 might not be a bad idea, either.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:53 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 109):
AI should re-configure the 777-200LRs to a two-class configuration in order to lower their CASM and better match traffic demand, which appears to be primarily Economy. Increasing density from 3+3+3 to 3+4+3 might not be a bad idea, either.

Agreed. While the 788 has a lower per flight cost, the 77Ls have a bit of cost associated with them that will take a long time to amortize. I'm shocked AI didn't already have 3+4+3 in Y; they do not exactly have the premium passengers to justify 3+3+3. It doesn't matter how much passengers like the room, its will they pay for the room?

I also agree with making the plane 2-class. ASAP. I doubt AI will be able to sell them, so it is time to make the most of the cards they have.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 107):
Absolutely. It is necessary to do business in places like India.

The more I find out about the corruption in India, the less interested I become in their aviation policies/companies. Why would one care if someone has a better product (hard or soft) if the solution is a suitcase of money to block the competition?

While Boeing, Airbus, and the airlines will pay the bribes, I hope one asks what about the business that won't and instead goes elsewhere? My best friend has been steadily moving jobs from India to Malaysia for a variety of reasons. Now that Thailand is recovering, there will be more competition. Although, ironically, he is in India right now (BLR airport) to see about moving some new jobs to India... But what matters is that it is a competition that is constantly benchmarked. Much of the work in India could be elsewhere. Most companies treat bribes as a tax. When the taxes get ridiculous, business moves. The books "Lexus and the Olive Tree" and "The World is Flat" have numerous examples of jobs shifting quickly.

If bribing is just the way, I will not give it a second thought when EK bribes enough to gain more access.

Any which way, AI is stuck with these poorly thought out planes. I hope they are rapidly converted to 2-class (10-across Y).


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seabosdca
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 110):
While Boeing, Airbus, and the airlines will pay the bribes

It will have to be a bit more sophisticated than that to get around the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act and the equivalent European laws (which are not quite as strict, but do exist). I'm sure that some of the byzantine business practices that have come to light in the AI 788 saga exist for the purpose of achieving the same effect.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 110):
The books "Lexus and the Olive Tree" and "The World is Flat" have numerous examples of jobs shifting quickly.

I'd trust your judgment on business way before I'd trust that of The Mustache of Conventional Wisdom.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 110):
I doubt AI will be able to sell them, so it is time to make the most of the cards they have.

   The GoI has a choice: keep pumping public money into AI or allow AI to do what it needs to do to compete, which is provide the less premium service that Indian markets are demanding.
 
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135mech
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:58 pm

They have been trying to dump them for a while now... blaming them for "gas-guzzling" etc...

Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So. (by globalflyer777 Aug 21 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Was a good thread on this before.

135Mech
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lightsaber
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:23 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 111):
I'm sure that some of the byzantine business practices that have come to light in the AI 788 saga exist for the purpose of achieving the same effect.

I'm sure its in there as 'consulting fees' and 'entertainment and overhead' or buried in the costs of an Indian office that employs a local political 'consulting' firm which...

Ugh... Which is why it becomes an effective tax. An added cost that slows down business which only hurts India. I hope they can figure out a way to fix the problem. Heck, I hope the USA is able to reduce our corruption too!

Quoting 135mech (Reply 112):
Was a good thread on this before.

Thank you for the link.

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Revelation
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 110):
Agreed. While the 788 has a lower per flight cost, the 77Ls have a bit of cost associated with them that will take a long time to amortize. I'm shocked AI didn't already have 3+4+3 in Y; they do not exactly have the premium passengers to justify 3+3+3. It doesn't matter how much passengers like the room, its will they pay for the room?

The point many are trying to make here is that it's more about assuring the right level of prestige more so than making money.
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aeroblogger
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 114):
The point many are trying to make here is that it's more about assuring the right level of prestige more so than making money.

That's absolutely incorrect. AI's route and fleet decision have little to do with prestige. They all have to do with making money.

It's just that the politicians and bureaucrats are making money, not the airline...
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tayaramecanici
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:25 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 90):
D checks are coming up on some of the 77L fleet, and that certainly would be expensive. Otherwise, reconfiguration would be an expensive maintenance procedure as well.

DO you know what is the calender-time-cyc duration to a 'D' check for the AI fleet ?
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AirIndia
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 110):
If bribing is just the way

In a bureaucratic set-up one cannot just blame corruption at only a single person. There are multiple layers of people involved right from the office peon to the Minister. If the deal is to be cracked efficiently (like well greased clock work) money need to be paid to put weight on the papers. And believe me it moves more efficiently than the Japanese Shinkansus.....
 
dennys
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:46 pm

Sorry , if i am late or missed a step , but can' t AI request 2 77Ls for government 's VIP missions ?
 
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:50 pm

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 115):
AI's route and fleet decision have little to do with prestige. They all have to do with making money.

I was referring to the continued retention of first class when it's not profitable, which here is being blamed upon making sure the fatcats don't find themselves in business class or (god forbid) coach.

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 117):
In a bureaucratic set-up one cannot just blame corruption at only a single person. There are multiple layers of people involved right from the office peon to the Minister. If the deal is to be cracked efficiently (like well greased clock work) money need to be paid to put weight on the papers. And believe me it moves more efficiently than the Japanese Shinkansus.....

It's also down to the taxpayers who don't seem to bat an eye when the airline they keep pumping funds into parks five airplanes who are less than five years old and will soon be sent to the scrappers. Of course they have other things to worry about, and of course some of them are also receiving graft in one form or another, and others are hoping to receive graft themselves so they don't complain.

It's kind of like how here in the US the rich have spent the money to convince working class folks that things work best when we give them tax breaks to the point where many working class people support them, partially because they have the delusion that they may be rich some day and would like such treatment, but that's a topic for another thread.
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airbazar
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:04 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 47):
The SAA argument of needing 4 engines because J'berg is "hot & high" has been made many times, but what about all the foreign airlines flying to J'berg with 777 and A330's ?

The difference is all other airlines operate only 1 or 2 flights from JNB, out of 100's of daily departures in their systems while SAA operates 50% of their entire daily departures from JNB. In other words, if foreign carriers have to take a penalty on their flight from JNB it is not as significant system wide as SAA taking a penalty on 50% of their flights. That's why they operate quads.
Also of relevance to this discussion is the fact that SAA has no other 777's in their fleet so it would make absolutely no sense getting these. If SAA really needs the performance of a 77L, there are a few A345's in the used market that they can obtain.
 
clemsonaj
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:16 pm

Quoting 135mech (Reply 112):
Was a good thread on this before.

Thank you! I read this whole thread thinking that very same thing.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: AI Offers 5 772LR For Sale

Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 114):
The point many are trying to make here is that it's more about assuring the right level of prestige more so than making money.

Prestige=money losing. It is a sure fire way to bury an airline.

9 across Y isn't prestigue anyway, it is a premium economy market a la SQ. Otherwise, put in 10 across since people will not pay for it. Sadly, AI isn't among the at most ten airlines that generate high premium traffic. Every other airline competes on fares and that means 'stuff them in.'

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