TK Getting Rid Of The Comfort Class!

TK787 · Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:57 pm

According to a reputable Turkish website kokpit.aero, TK is getting rid of its Comfort Class on 77Ws.
http://kokpit.aero/thy-comfort-classi-kaldiriyor (in Turkish only)

This class was introduced with the brand new 77Ws and I had the pleasure of using it on my last 4 flights on TK.
We all knew that TK had a problem of filling these seats. (in Turkish Aviation threads)
With 28J, 63 Comfort and 246 Y seats on the 77W, Comfort just had too many seats. We talked about reducing the comfort by two rows and adding more J seats.

But looks like TK will receive its new batch of 15+5 77Ws with only two classes. They will have more J and more Y seats.
This translates into even more added capacity for TK.

Also the article suggests, the current fleet of 12 frames will be switched to two class layout at the time of the fleets earliest extensive checks.

This really sucks for pax like me, who can't afford the J and now stuck with the cattle class.

jfk777 · Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:58 pm

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
With 28J, 63 Comfort and 246 Y seats on the 77W, Comfort just had too many seats. We talked about reducing the comfort by two rows and adding more J seats.

The comfort class was 49 inches and 7 abreast, very generous for Y+ class.

OA260 · Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:11 pm

Thats a real shame it was one of the best Y+ out there. Reminded me of BMI's Premium Economy on the A330's. I guess too many seats to fill. 30 would have been more realistic.

MeCe · Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:19 pm

One of two decision is false; time will tell us. May be they retrofit new planes with comfort class again couple years later

TK787 · Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:23 pm

I wonder why they chose to get rid of it all together.
They could have opted for switching 2 rows of J for 4 rows of Y+ and end up:
42J, 35Y+ and 246Y.

Now, it looks like TK might have something like;
49J and 273 Y

Still there will be problems with bathrooms and galleys and such. Still behind the J there will still be a small, secluded Y section. That could have been Y+ with, US Y+ standards.

The craziest thing might be that TK to switch to 3-4-3 Y also. Let's see what happens!

Turkish350XWB · Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 4):
42J, 35Y+ and 246Y.

This seems to be a reasonable configuration. At least they realized that 63 Y+ is way too much. And also that 28 J is too less. They should have listened to us from the very beginning

LAXintl · Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:10 pm

Well some of the commercial management team changed at TK recently including a VP, so you never know what the new team has in mind.

While comfort class might be award winning, like I have mentioned prior it comes down to maximizing revenue on the plane.
Each square meter on the aircraft needs to justify its existence, so it could be the numbers simply don't add up compared so replacing the cabin with either more economy seats or business class ones. As discussed in the Turkish aviation thread, TK has struggled with the placement and pricing of comfort class product. It can't be too cheap as it robs potential business class passengers, but its has to be expensive enough to offset the loss of regular economy seat space.

ASA · Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:10 pm

Oh no - this will be BAD!

It is indeed the most affordable alternative to J we "commoners" can have!

Quoting TK787 (Reply 4):

I wonder why they chose to get rid of it all together.
They could have opted for switching 2 rows of J for 4 rows of Y+ and end up:
42J, 35Y+ and 246Y.

This sounds like a good plan ... hopefully some TK executive will pick this up!

ankaraflyjet · Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:26 pm

Very sorry to hear this as Comfort was a very good product. I hope they will reduce the number of seats and keep the option available.

I flown this to Toronto 10 times and twice to JFK and it was always 100% full, very surprised to hear that it was not selling as much.

DesertFlyer · Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:13 pm

Having flown IST-LAX in Comfort Class, I have to say this is very disappointing. It was much, much more comfortable than Y, and I cannot afford J. Sad news.

ElPistolero · Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:15 pm

Very disappointed to hear this, since Y+ was one of the main reasons I chose them over others. I still think their product is one of the better ones from east coast N. America to South/South East Asia, so I will remain somewhat loyal.

Viscount724 · Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting ankaraflyjet (Reply 8):
I flown this to Toronto 10 times and twice to JFK and it was always 100% full,

Load factor doesn't mean much. You don't know how many were upgraded from Y class to avoid leaving the seats empty. That's common on routes without a lot of premium class demand and operating using aircraft with too many premium class seats.

northstar80 · Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:22 pm

Flew it, loved it, what a shame!!

It is the best alternative for the people who want extra legroom but cannot afford Business Class..

Maybe they will change their minds..

alitaliadc10 · Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:51 pm

Does TK still operate any of the leased 9W 77Ws which had First Class?

TK787 · Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:24 pm

Quoting AlitaliaDC10 (Reply 13):
Does TK still operate any of the leased 9W 77Ws which had First Class?

Gone long time ago, all returned.

vincewy · Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:59 pm

When does TK plan to retrofit current 777 fleet into 2 class configuration? If very soon, I may stop flying with TK altogether. Worst news I've heard for a long time, couldn't they at least reduce the seats first and see how things turn out?

Let's face it, their Y and J products are nothing special, I can fly with alternatives for less.

golfradio · Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:13 am

Are they keeping their Y 9 abreast or are they going over to the dark side too? They could make Y 10 abreast and keep Y+ intact. That might coax more people to buy Y+.

ORDJOE · Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:46 pm

I heard a lot on flyertalk and others who flew TK is that they often were selling upgrades to comfort class for about 200-500 at check in, so obviously they are having a hard time selling these tickets. I believe these tickets are around 2000USD if you buy it the normal way, so that shuts out a good amount of leisure travel, businesses generally front for J or relinquish their employees to Y, most companies I know generally do not have provisions for booking into Y+

TK787 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:08 pm

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 17):
TK is that they often were selling upgrades to comfort class for about 200-500 at check in,

Actually, it is 200 euros at check-in if they have the space. I bought it this way twice and both times Comfort class was less than half full.

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 17):
most companies I know generally do not have provisions for booking into Y+

Well, people I work for, do.
But with JFK-IST TK Comfort gone, I am either back to TK Y, or comparable Y+ on UA, or one-stop Y+.

abrelosojos · Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:11 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):

Well some of the commercial management team changed at TK recently including a VP, so you never know what the new team has in mind.

=

.

Saludos,
A.

ElPistolero · Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:23 pm

Well hopefully it will be a reduction rather than a phase out. And they can afford to lose quite a few inches of legroom.

The way I see it, a 53% load factor can be used to justify 28-35 seats instead of the current 63.

roseflyer · Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:38 pm

TK’s comfort class was the most generous of the premium economy classes. The seats basically have what the industry standard for business class was 20 years ago. I don’t think the industry has caught up to premium economy like that yet. It probably will happen one day when business class cabins start to shrink and premium economy grows because business class has become too upscale and expensive.

MaverickM11 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:56 pm

Right now TK's network relies primarily on Y traffic only. They're going to get all the Y traffic to Dushanbe--for example--and it's going to be at a decent fare; next to no one is going to pay for a perk like Y+, let alone J.

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
We talked about reducing the comfort by two rows and adding more J seats.

Quoting vincewy (Reply 15):
Let's face it, their Y and J products are nothing special, I can fly with alternatives for less.

In my experience TK's J is much better than all US and EU carriers.

vincewy · Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 20):
Well hopefully it will be a reduction rather than a phase out. And they can afford to lose quite a few inches of legroom.

Instead of getting rid of it altogether, how about reducing to 28 seats and charge a little bit more? I'm even OK with them putting 8 seats 2-4-2 on 777, perhaps they can put a few up on A330/A340 as well with 2-3-2.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
In my experience TK's J is much better than all US and EU carriers.

Actually I'm comparing TK's J against QR (they'll soon go 1-2-1 J in 787), WY, EY.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/fil...an-Air/Oman-Air-business-class.jpg

or if I want just a seat to stretch, I can fly for a lot less with MS, UL, VV, or SV. Yes, TK's C/J products are solid, but it doesn't really stand out.

lightsaber · Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:11 pm

I'm not a huge fan of Y+. Mid-markets have a habit of being 'squeezed out' as either passengers want the comfort of J or cheap out for Y.

TK must also compete with EK's high density J class on connecting routes. If one airline offers J for close to the price of Y+, why not take the opportunity to sleep?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Each square meter on the aircraft needs to justify its existence, so it could be the numbers simply don't add up compared so replacing the cabin with either more economy seats or business class ones. As discussed in the Turkish aviation thread, TK has struggled with the placement and pricing of comfort class product. It can't be too cheap as it robs potential business class passengers, but its has to be expensive enough to offset the loss of regular economy seat space.

That is the crux. Every bit of floor space must pay for itself and I just do not see paying what Y+ costs for a seat that still isn't great to sleep in. Either cheap out or pay for J. With some airlines doing high density J (AA, DL, and EK come to mind), it is tough to compete. A 7 across Y with long pitch sounds like a near J product in terms of floor space. How many wouldn't pay the little bit more for J?

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 21):
The seats basically have what the industry standard for business class was 20 years ago. I don’t think the industry has caught up to premium economy like that yet.

I look at QF and see that Y+ cabins tend to be about half the size of the J cabin. Is TK really on such premium heavy routes to justify such a large mid-cabin?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
In my experience TK's J is much better than all US and EU carriers.

Does anyone have a comparison of the floor space (m^2) per passenger comparing TK vs. LH, AF, BA, EK, QR, EY, DL, AA, and UA? It is not just having the best product, it is having a product that meets the market. For example, SQ's amazing J don't work for all markets. But if that J works, due to its high cost, there is more of a gap between Y and J to be plugged by Y+.

When I compare the 77W for TK vs. EK on seatguru, I see the 3-class EK has two rows of first and two rows of J in front of the doors while TK has 4 rows of J with some added Galley capacity. Is the revenue from TK's J that much better than EK's First and J? I suspect TK has a great J, but is trying to maximize the revenue by floor space and they have an issue in that not enough people will pay for their J, but want more than Y+.

Lightsaber

EBGflyer · Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:15 pm

I tried TK's Comfort Class and was positively surprised. I topped the 'old style' business class without lie-flat seats, but I was wondering myself why the section was so big. 60 Y+ are probably too much. Would not go for something half-way instead of cutting it complety?

MaverickM11 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:24 pm

Quoting vincewy (Reply 23):
Actually I'm comparing TK's J against QR (they'll soon go 1-2-1 J in 787), WY, EY.

You're comparing TK to a product that has yet fly? WY doesn't count--their layout is an F layout which although I'm sure is great, is not realistic for J. EY's seats are 2 inches narrower than TK's, but 2 inches longer

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 25):
I was wondering myself why the section was so big. 60 Y+ are probably too much. Would not go for something half-way instead of cutting it complety?

Perhaps they can get away with just selling bulkheads, window exits and capture the same pax?

northstar80 · Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:02 pm

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 25):
I was wondering myself why the section was so big. 60 Y+ are probably too much. Would not go for something half-way instead of cutting it complety?

That would actually be the best option. Instead of 63 seats, make them maybe 35-40 and have a better Y+ loadfactor and also increased number of Y seats.

Why is having Y+ important?
- Albeit small, there is a group of passengers who is looking to fly in better Y conditions, but not willing to pay J fares.
- When you remove Y+, you lose these customers altogether - they go straightly to airlines who offer Y+.
- A buffer to upgrade Y passengers when flights are overbooked. Much better than having to upgrade to J.

I have flown TK Y+ twice (to LAX and JFK) and loved it. In both of my flights, Y+ was 100%.

aerorobnz · Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:33 pm

A grave shame if so. I was very happy to fly Comfort Class - Far and away superior to any other PE, and even some business class I have flown - It was most a reasonable cost especially for the high quality - and J was over double the price of comfort class. Whereas I am happy to have a stop in IST with Comfort class, I will be unlikely to do so if it ceases to be available - I will just fly on other Star Alliance carriers like NH on direct services into Europe, or if I want a cheap J Class bed I will fly the SU 77W via CAI.

I would really like to see a smaller cabin trialled first before they lose it entirely, but I fear the overall inflight product across all airlines for all classes is about to go through another shakeup for all airlines in order to make ends meet. 3-4-3 on the 777 is becoming the norm, and PE & Biz classes getting higher density again, having become less and less dense in the previous decade. Similar I think to what happened to the 747 and other widebodies in the Oil crisis in the 1970s

robcol99 · Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:10 am

A very good product that can be the victim of its superiority. If I were TK, I definitely wouldn't have quit the product now. Here's a thought why it didn't produce the results it intended:

No fleet commonality. If you offer the product for a destination, then you offer it in each flight. (JFK, BKK suffered a lot from this.)
Too large of a cabin.
Problem with married couple flights. If you are traveling say MUC-IST-PVG, then you are stuck with economy on the first leg. The product was therefore only serving O&D market.
Lack of similar classes in other Star members. Unlike Skyteam or OW, the PE product is not offered as widely in the * network. Thus, the usual * traveler is not well used to/ informed of this product.

TK either drops the service, which I believe is not right for an airline of this size now, you definitely need more product differentiation.

They could lose the first 5 rows of comfort, substitute that with 3 rows of business. For the remainder of the cabin (4 rows), they could squeeze in a 5 th row with dropping the pitch to a "normal" PE levels, around 39 inches. Thus, the cabin will be 49J/35U/237Y seats. This premium config can be used where TK has more J and U travelers such as JFK or NRT.

The second config can be 28J/ 28U/ 300Y. This config can be used for more leisure oriented flights, such as BKK. The second conig can be easily applied to 12 new frames ordered, and TK wouldn't have to purchase a single new comfort seat as the seats coming from the current fleet can offset the new seat requirements.

Needless to say, TK has to install 7-abreast Y product in the A330.

danielkandi · Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:12 pm

How come Turkish Airlines have just denied getting rid of Comfort Class ? They just replied to my post on FB. (Rare that they actually reply, which is sad) But they said it WILL continue. Maybe a reduction of seats then ?