AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

aacun · Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:24 am

AA annouces Dallas/Ft. worth-Seoul service....... Also ORD-DUS, JFK-DUB and DFW-LIM
Also several domestic cities out of DFW and ORD on eagle

commavia · Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:31 am

Great news.

I knew it! DFW-ICN is a market that has made sense for AA for years - I hope that works out.

The return of DFW-LIM, especially given LAN's rapidly-growing hub there, also makes total sense (and also has for years).

JFK-DUB is an interesting in that it is relatively seasonal, and a competitive market, although it's a market that - like so many others - should not be all that difficult to fill during the summer.

ORD-DUS I am surprised by, given that AB already announced ORD-DUS service - I was somewhat more expecting ORD-BER, but ORD-DUS still seems reasonable. I will be interested to see how it does.

Domestically, DFW-FAR makes sense, and the COU service was already previously known. Return to BPT after so many years is interesting, though.

AmricanShamrok · Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:34 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
ORD-DUS I am surprised by, given that AB already announced ORD-DUS service

Air Berlin is launching Berlin-Chicago next summer, not Dusseldorf-Chicago. AA will go head to head with Lufthansa on this route.

commavia · Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:38 am

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 2):
Air Berlin is launching Berlin-Chicago next summer, not Dusseldorf-Chicago. AA will go head to head with Lufthansa on this route.

Ah - sorry I got those mixed up. I question how successful AA's 767 product will be up against Lufthansa's, which is superior, but perhaps with the hub on one end and the partner hub on the other, it will work. Interesting that this markets AA's return to DUS after nearly 20 years.

jfk777 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:40 am

Finally AA finds Asia outside Japan or China. When will Hong Kong begin ? Dusseldorf not a complete surprise, its good they a starting a European flight from ORD, not cancelling one.

commavia · Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:50 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
Finally AA finds Asia outside Japan or China. When will Hong Kong begin ?

Yeah - DFW-ICN has and does make sense, and I agree that it rounds out AA's route portfolio to Asia which has obviously been entirely Japan and China (and China really only for about the last 5-6 years). I have to say I'm personally a bit surprised that LAX-PVG has lasted thus far - didn't think it would with all the competition.

Five months ago, back in May, I argued that, given the alliance and competitive landscape as it now stands, AA needed to three "surgical adds" to their Asia network to be broadly competitive with Delta. This, DFW-ICN, was one of them. The others were DFW-HKG, which I still see as entirely plausible once the 77Ws arrive, and LAX-PEK. With those two additional markets, plus the network JAL and Cathay bring, AA would - in general - be where it needed to be competitively in Asia.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 4):
its good they a starting a European flight from ORD, not cancelling one.

Agreed. I'll be interested to see if ORD-DUS makes it long-term.

jcwr56 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:59 am

Since the cat is out of the bag, AA had been planning 2 new international routes from ORD but only ended up with DUS.

With AB to TXL and now AA to DUS, it will give options for flyer's to connect and compete with Star to Germany and beyond.

[Edited 2012-10-24 05:23:49]

commavia · Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:00 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 6):
Since the cat is out of the bag, AA had been planning 2 new international routes from ORD but only ended up with DUS.

Any hints as to what #2 was? Aircraft type to have been used? Region of the world?

mats · Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:06 pm

Düsseldorf doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe they're hoping to connect with AirBerlin. But AB is in its own financial turmoil. Also, Germany itself is facing tough financial times.

I remember Northwest's very brief DTW-Düsselforf experiment with a 757.

American actually flew from Chicago to Berlin/Tegel in about 1992. It was not successful. The same year, Air Canada tried Toronto-Berlin/Schönefeld with no luck. I love Berlin, but I think it's a tough market for transatlantic service.

realsim · Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:10 pm

International:

Starts 02APR2013:

AA2193 | DFW-LIM | 17:30-00:25 | 752 | D
AA2194 | LIM-DFW | 02:00-09:15 | 752 | D

Starts 11APR2013:

AA242 | ORD-DUS | 17:00-08:15 | 763 | D
AA241 | DUS-ORD | 12:10-14:20 | 763 | D

Starts 09MAY2013:

AA27 | DFW-ICN | 10:30-15:00 | 772 | D
AA26 | ICN-DFW | 17:00-16:20 | 772 | D

Starts 12JUN2013:

AA290 | JFK-DUB | 18:55-06:55 | 752 | D
AA291 | DUB-JFK | 09:00-11:30 | 752 | D

Domestic:

Starts 14FEB2013:

AA2543 | DFW-BPT | 08:40-09:50 | CR2 | D
AA2521 | DFW-BPT | 11:20-12:35 | CR2 | D
AA2523 | DFW-BPT | 15:10-16:20 | CR2 | D
AA2525 | DFW-BPT | 18:25-19:35 | CR2 | x6
AA2510 | BPT-DFW | 06:30-07:45 | CR2 | D
AA2543 | BPT-DFW | 10:20-11:30 | CR2 | D
AA2521 | BPT-DFW | 13:05-14:15 | CR2 | D
AA2523 | BPT-DFW | 16:50-18:00 | CR2 | x6

Starts 14FEB2013:

AA2537 | DFW-FAR | 12:05-14:30 | CR2 | D
AA2537 | FAR-DFW | 15:05-17:50 | CR2 | D

Starts 14FEB2013:

AA3396 | DFW-COU | 12:00-13:25 | ER4 | D
AA3348 | DFW-COU | 18:55-20:25 | ER4 | x6
AA3215 | COU-DFW | 06:45-08:35 | ER4 | D
AA3291 | COU-DFW | 17:40-19:25 | ER4 | x6

Starts 14FEB2013:

AA3919 | ORD-COU | 15:55-17:10 | ER4 | D
AA3900 | COU-ORD | 13:55-15:20 | ER4 | D

Andie007 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:11 pm

Berlin isn't really a large scale business destination lilke Munich, Frankfurt and Düsseldorf. LH is quite profitable on their longhaul routes and quite good protected this market within the last few years (esp. in granting large scale regional companies quite good fares on their busses).

AA does not surprise me. DUS is currently one of the major hubs in Germany for Air Berlin (and other OW carriers). AB itself will start TXL-ORD besides running already JFK from DUS and TXL. Let's see whether they're able to acquire enough business traveller on the route (which should be more easy comparted to Berlin).

commavia · Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:19 pm

With regard to DFW-ICN specifically, it is now going to be interesting to see what impact AA's entrance into the market will have on KE, which has been flying the route for years. AA will obviously have a more convenient schedule (daily) although KE will obviously have the better hard/soft product in all cabins.

I suspect the two can coexist in the market, given that KE is targeting a largely different customer set than AA (more VFR and beyond-ICN connections vs AA's more U.S.-originating, corporate and O&D focus), although I do think KE will probably go back down to year-round 3x weekly 777.

Also of note - unimportant, but interesting - the new DFW-ICN flights will get the old SEA-NRT flight numbers.

jcwr56 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:19 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 9):
Starts 11APR2013:

AA242 | ORD-DUS | 17:00-08:15 | 763 | D
AA241 | DUS-ORD | 12:10-14:20 | 763 | D

This arrival time into ORD is a place holder. It will fall somwhere between 1155-1420.

AA would love the earlier arrival time but issues in DUS is pushing it back to 1420 and probably playing safe by using this time.

FSDan · Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:35 pm

So is JFK-DUB coming at the expense of ORD-DUB, or is that one back as well?

It is interesting that 3 of the 4 long haul routes will have competition:

DFW-ICN vs KE
ORD-DUS vs LH
JFK-DUB vs EI and DL (and indirectly UA at EWR)

Nonetheless, good to see AA adding international routes, and I hope they do well.

drerx7 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:47 pm

DFW-BPT was also a seemingly wise move - with UA pulling air service and sending a bus there from IAH.

mhkansan · Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:49 pm

This is SUPER exciting news! DFW-LIM (Where is BOG!?) has been a LONG time coming, I know ICN is going to do spectacularly with AA"s heavy military traffic, and DUS? Wow! A new European destination!!

Note the domestic trips are on CR2s - those will be OO... Hmmm...

[Edited 2012-10-24 06:01:51]

jfk777 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:57 pm

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 15):
This is SUPER exciting news! DFW-LIM (Where is BOG!?) has been a LONG time comin

Didn't AA fly previously from DFW to Lima ?

commavia · Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:58 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 13):
So is JFK-DUB coming at the expense of ORD-DUB, or is that one back as well?

Good question.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 13):
DFW-ICN vs KE
ORD-DUS vs LH
JFK-DUB vs EI and DL (and indirectly UA at EWR)

Personally, I think AA should be able to hold its own against the competition in all those markets, with the possible exception of ORD-DUS. I will be interested to see if that makes it past the summer 2013 season.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 16):
Didn't AA fly previously from DFW to Lima ?

Yes - from 1996 to 2006.

JAAlbert · Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:05 pm

From what route will AA pull the 772s for the ICN run? I suppose AA will have two or so 77Ws by this time? How many aircraft does it take to run DFW - ICN?

MaverickM11 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:07 pm

All sensible adds except for ORDDUS--that's going to be a bit like JFKBUD but I'm sure the connectivity to PMI will be great

. I'm a little surprised ICN came before HKG but there is a lot of high yield traffic to and flowing over DFW that should be right in AA's wheelhouse, rather than--or perhaps in addition to--KE. Also a interesting DUB comes before a secondary UK destination given the BA/AA JV...

commavia · Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:09 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18):
From what route will AA pull the 772s for the ICN run? I suppose AA will have two or so 77Ws by this time?

Yes. By next May AA will certainly have 2 77Ws - but AA has slack 777 capacity anyway.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18):
How many aircraft does it take to run DFW - ICN?

2 or, more likely, 1.5 if they combine it with a South America route. Example: DFW-ICN and DFW-EZE on their own each require 2 aircraft (for a total of 4) for a daily round-trip with their current schedule, but you can run both daily with only 3 aircraft if you rotate the jets between the two routes.

gdg9 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:11 pm

I'm curious to see how the AA DFW-ICN route will fare against KE, who are running 5x a week if I'm not mistaken. KE on board product is superior to AA IMHO, and KE has built up a nice reputation on this route locally over the years.

commavia · Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:15 pm

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 21):
against KE, who are running 5x a week if I'm not mistaken.

With this, I suspect KE will be reducing frequency again back to where it traditionally was up until recently.

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 21):
KE on board product is superior to AA IMHO, and KE has built up a nice reputation on this route locally over the years.

KE's product is superior, and they do have a good reputation, but AA is also going to capture a large portion of the U.S.-originating traffic in this market, much of which used to transfer over NRT (despite the nonstop KE flight) because of the AAdvantage allegiance. I was once told - and wasn't a bit surprised - that ICN was the single largest connecting market between AA and JAL over NRT.

Ultimately, I do think the two can coexist because they are targeting very different markets. KE focuses more on Asia-originating, or U.S.-originating that is primarily VFR - with lots of connections to the big ethnic markets around Asia. AA is obviously going to be focused far more on the U.S.-originating, business-based market.

MaverickM11 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 21):
KE on board product is superior to AA IMHO, and KE has built up a nice reputation on this route locally over the years.

It's not really about product, although the new AA product should be competitive. People in DFW, GRK, SAT, etc are going to want AA miles, and that is where AA will have a tremendous advantage over KE, where Skyteam is of much lesser value.

jcwr56 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:17 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 6):Since the cat is out of the bag, AA had been planning 2 new international routes from ORD but only ended up with DUS.

Any hints as to what #2 was? Aircraft type to have been used? Region of the world?

763 and Europe

neutral · Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:22 pm

Dublin to Chicago still bookable in June/July so looks as if we'll have 2 daily flights to Dublin during the summer....

hohd · Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:25 pm

With the addition of DFW-BPT, may be UA will reconsider IAH-BPT plane service (instead of a bus). They will lose quite a few passengers to AA. Also the DFW-LIM will be a good competition to IAH-LIM, which has outrageous fares. Bet quite a few will be willing to go via DFW to save money, unless AA also prices same as UA.

DFW-ICN, I am not sure, it is a long route, not enough traffic to support to two airlines may be, bulk of the traffic is from West Coast. I think one of the airlines KE or AA will pull out eventually.

commavia · Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:25 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):
It's not really about product, although the new AA product should be competitive. People in DFW, GRK, SAT, etc are going to want AA miles, and that is where AA will have a tremendous advantage over KE, where Skyteam is of much lesser value.

Not to mention that AA will be able to do with DFW-ICN what it has for years been doing with DFW-NRT - namely, moving tons of people and cargo over DFW to/from Latin America. GRU, GIG, SCL, EZE and now LIM not only will be contributing significant feed to DFW-NRT, but also DFW-ICN. That is something else AA will definitely benefit from in the DFW-ICN market.

aaexecplat · Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:26 pm

Quoting Mats (Reply 8):
Düsseldorf doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe they're hoping to connect with AirBerlin.

I can't make sense of this route either. JFK-FRA would have been a much better option especially with regard to yields.

Quoting Mats (Reply 8):
Also, Germany itself is facing tough financial times.

Not nearly to the same degrees as most developed nations on this planet.

Tdan · Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:27 pm

Love all the new adds except ORDDUS is a head scratcher. Even ORDHEL (which was a terrible add) made more logical sense. DUS-US is almost entirely DUS point of sale, predominantly coach and the vast majority of premium traffic flies on LH. If AA can't make ORDBRU work, there's no way ORDDUS works.

DFWICN will be a home run. Large local ethnic traffic + significant military connections + booming ICN-US traffic will make it a hit. Only issue is that the F/C cabin traffic is a little skinny.

IrishAyes · Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:29 pm

Wowowowowowowowowowowow. This made my day!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TWO new exciting international routes from DFW, although not unserved previously - and ORD-DUS and JFK-DUB

Revolutionary for AA standards

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):

With regard to DFW-ICN specifically, it is now going to be interesting to see what impact AA's entrance into the market will have on KE, which has been flying the route for years. AA will obviously have a more convenient schedule (daily) although KE will obviously have the better hard/soft product in all cabins.

This was the first thing that came to mind. I hope that KE stays, they've had a long history with DFW and have weathered through some tough times to remain a success story.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
although I do think KE will probably go back down to year-round 3x weekly 777.

Yes, probable.

AmricanShamrok · Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:39 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 9):
Starts 12JUN2013:

AA290 | JFK-DUB | 18:55-06:55 | 752 | D
AA291 | DUB-JFK | 09:00-11:30 | 752 | D

This is competing head to head with United from Newark in terms of timings and aircraft type. To compare:

UA22 | EWR-DUB | 19:10-06:55 | 752
UA23 | DUB-EWR | 09:00-11:40 | 752

HeeseokKoo · Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 21):
KE on board product is superior to AA IMHO, and KE has built up a nice reputation on this route locally over the years.

DFW-ICN used to be the last destination with KE's latest product. When KE upgraded cradle style business class to angled lie-flat and installed AVOD on all classes, DFW wasn't see those up-to-date products until the last 772 plane was refurbished. Currently, while many other routes see full flat business class, still angled lie-flat equipped planes run on DFW route. When other destinations see frequency increase, DFW got upgauged to 747 instead. In the end, it became 5/w (from 3/w for a long time), but missing on Monday and Friday sucks when scheduling a short trip. Discrimination of the ICN-DFW happened because of the lack of competition and weaker premium class traffic (I guess).

AA offers much better schedule. And for many Americans, AA service makes more sense. KE planes don't have individual air conditioning system, and keeps temperature warm. I saw one person undress his shirt (gross) because flight attendant hesitated in dropping temperature on DFW-ICN a couple of weeks ago. Temperature was fine with me, but I bet it was warm for many Americans. Also KE doesn't accept non-Korean credit card on the phone or web. Only in-person. No exceptions. It created problem when purchasing award ticket or when purchasing AUS-DFW-ICN ticket directly through Korean air. Latter issue can only be avoided if I buy through a travel agency, though. (I had to miss 5% chase freedom credit card cashback)

sw733 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 9):
AA27 | DFW-ICN | 10:30-15:00 | 772 | D
AA26 | ICN-DFW | 17:00-16:20 | 772 | D

I am a happy camper now! I think I'll be doing more business in Korea, and it usually ends at about 12:00pm on the final day so I can make it out that night...how nice!

To say that I am thrilled to see ICN is an understatement. Tired of connecting through NRT!

commavia · Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 32):
AA offers much better schedule.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 33):
it usually ends at about 12:00pm on the final day so I can make it out that night...how nice!

The joint AA/JL schedule out of ICN heading east is now going to be quite competitive. JL has 2 daily ICN-NRT flights, one in the morning (0800) and one in the afternoon (1335), and both connect to the eastbound NRT-U.S. banks, and now AA will have an evening ICN-DFW nonstop (1700). That provides great flexibility throughout the day for those heading back ICN-U.S. on oneworld.

Bobloblaw · Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:17 pm

Quoting aacun (Thread starter):
AA annouces Dallas/Ft. worth-Seoul service....... Also ORD-DUS, JFK-DUB and DFW-LIM
Also several domestic cities out of DFW and ORD on eagle

Doubt ORD-DUS will work with Star Alliance so strong at both ends. I hope they do DFW-ICN wit ha 773 cuz the yields will be low and they need a place with a low CASM

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
The return of DFW-LIM, especially given LAN's rapidly-growing hub there, also makes total sense (and also has for years).

I agree

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
Domestically, DFW-FAR makes sense

Good ad, but long for an ERJ.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
With regard to DFW-ICN specifically, it is now going to be interesting to see what impact AA's entrance into the market will have on KE, which has been flying the route for years. AA will obviously have a more convenient schedule (daily) although KE will obviously have the better hard/soft product in all cabins.

KE has more connections beyond ICN.

[quote=mhkansan,reply=15]Where is BOG!?[/quoteA ]
A good A319 market

crAAzy · Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:18 pm

Good news on all fronts. I'm particularly excited about the ORD-DUS route although personally I would have preferred AA to fly ORD - Berlin on it's own metal with AB on ORD-DUS. AA should do well on this route given it fills a nice gap in AA's Northern European route map, the business in the area, and the partnership with AB.

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 18):
From what route will AA pull the 772s for the ICN run? I suppose AA will have two or so 77Ws by this time? How many aircraft does it take to run DFW - ICN?

It's likely to be a 3 class 772 when the route starts, but this is a route screaming for the 77W or a 789 (with an F product) in the future, especially if AA can capture more of the Samsung business travel.

Quoting realsim (Reply 9):

AA2193 | DFW-LIM | 17:30-00:25 | 752 | D
AA2194 | LIM-DFW | 02:00-09:15 | 752 | D

Timing on LIM is quite interesting for AA ... there aren't too many AA flights schedule for 02:00 departures but I guess the article alludes to this also being geared towards Japan/Pacific connections. Is this going to be one long down and back for the crew on these flights?

Quoting realsim (Reply 9):

Starts 12JUN2013:

AA290 | JFK-DUB | 18:55-06:55 | 752 | D
AA291 | DUB-JFK | 09:00-11:30 | 752 | D

If I remember correctly AA used to run a JFK-DUB almost year round (via SNN) with a 767. Not a big surprise to see them return (if in fact it turns out to be only seasonally with a 752).

[Edited 2012-10-24 07:37:12]

crAAzy · Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:26 pm

Also interesting is that DFW-ICN will now become AA's second longest route (only about 200 miles behind ORD-PVG).

hoons90 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:30 pm

This is the single best piece of news I've heard all year. I'm serious.

I am ecstatic!

LAXdude1023 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:33 pm

It goes without saying that this pretty much made my month!!!!!

Ill go one by one:

DFW-ICN - This route has been rumored since I moved to Dallas three years ago. There is a lot of DFW originating traffic bound for ICN so I do think this will be a success, however it may come at the expsense of KE. In the Dallas market, KE has sort of become the airline for the Asian ethnic community in the subrubs to the North and West of Dallas (like Plano, Carrollton, Irving, etc.). I do always enjoy talking with the KE flight attendents when I visit the King Spa in Dallas' Koreatown. I dont know if they have ever really been able to capture much of the business traffic. That is where AA will be able to one-up them I think. I am not sure if they both can co-exist on DFW-ICN. Perhaps a reduced frequency on DFW-ICN will be in order. 10x weekly is more than doable on DFW-ICN between two carriers.

DFW-LIM - To me this one should have happened a while ago. AA has a closer relationship with LAN than when this was previously flown. Given how much LAN has expanded out of LIM, this should work nicely. Not to mention the South American community in Texas (primarily Houston and Dallas) has grown exponentially as have the business ties. This flight goes a long way toward completeing a DFW-South America hub. The only other route that should be flown from DFW is BOG. After that, DFW-South America will be complete. That one could be a good 319 route.

ORD-DUS - Finally, its nice to see some growth in the ORD-Europe market. A big disappointment has always been that AA let ORD-Europe slide the way it did. Im glad to see a new route from Chicago and Im hoping for more in the future.

ckfred · Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:47 pm

Since AB has hubs at both Berlin and DUS, AA/AB/Oneworld must expect to capture traffic that can connect through AB's hubs in Germany, as well as U.S. traffic connecting at ORD.

Remember that long before Star, LH and AA codeshared on flights out of ORD. When the old international terminal was torn down to build the current UA terminal, a ticketing and customs/immigration facility was built on the first level of the parking garage, with buses moving passengers to and from remote hard stands.

Some carriers decided to sublease gate space and ticket counters in Terminals 2 and 3. LH sublet space from DL on Concourse L. So, LH flew a DC-10-30 on ORD-DUS (which continued on to MUC). AA flew a 767 on ORD-MUC. Each flew an ORD-FRA roundtrip. When LH decided to shift its codeshares in the U.S. to UA, in anticipation for starting the Star Alliance, AA started flying ORD-DUS with its own aircraft.

With no connecting feed at MUC and DUS, both routes were eventually dropped.

hoons90 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:05 pm

Will this make ICN the Asian airport served by the most amount of US-based (passenger) airlines? There will be AA, UA, DL and HA.

commavia · Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 35):
I hope they do DFW-ICN wit ha 773

I don't expect AA to put a plane that large on DFW-ICN.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 35):
cuz the yields will be low and they need a place with a low CASM

With the amount of corporate and O&D traffic that exists in that market, I'm not so sure it is going to be all that particularly low-yielding.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 35):
KE has more connections beyond ICN.

And AA has more connections beyond DFW.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 36):
although personally I would have preferred AA to fly ORD - Berlin on it's own metal with AB on ORD-DUS.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 36):
Timing on LIM is quite interesting for AA ... there aren't too many AA flights schedule for 02:00 departures. Is this going to be one long down and back for the crew on these flights?

That schedule is very close to what AA's schedule on DFW-LIM used to be - and it is timed perfectly for domestic and international connections.

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 36):
If I remember correctly AA used to run a JFK-DUB almost year round (via SNN) with a 767.

I may well be wrong but I do not believe AA has flown New York-Ireland since the AOA days (circa 1950s).

Quoting crAAzy (Reply 36):
Not a big surprise to see them return (if in fact it turns out to be only seasonally with a 752).

I don't know if AA would be able to make JFK-DUB work in the winter.

mogandoCI · Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:15 pm

ORD - PEK / PVG
LAX - PVG
DFW - ICN

It's nice to see them finally expanding to Asia, but a single TPAC hub probably would serve them better than seemingly p2p services.

Regarding DFW-HKG rumors, it feels like ORD-HEL : hub-to-hub for the sake of it. 8123mi for a mostly connection-oriented route requires EK-level CASM to make it work (i'd dread 3-4-3 on this 17 hour flight)

commavia · Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:47 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 43):
ORD - PEK / PVG
LAX - PVG
DFW - ICN

It's nice to see them finally expanding to Asia, but a single TPAC hub probably would serve them better than seemingly p2p services.

P2P? All of those link major foreign markets with major U.S. hubs for AA. A "single TPAC hub" is not economically or strategically feasible for AA - or really any U.S. carrier - just because of the sheer size of the U.S. No U.S. carrier - including Delta and United - have a "single TPAC hub."

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 43):
Regarding DFW-HKG rumors, it feels like ORD-HEL : hub-to-hub for the sake of it.

Well, "hub-to-hub for the sake of it," when the hubs on both ends are massive like with DFW-HKG, isn't such a bad thing.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 43):
8123mi for a mostly connection-oriented route requires EK-level CASM to make it work

I suspect not.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 43):
(i'd dread 3-4-3 on this 17 hour flight)

Would it be 17 hours? It's less than 60 miles longer than EWR-HKG, which is scheduled at or just below 16 hours westbound.

YYZbound · Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:57 pm

I'm not sure why everyone is dogging the ORD-HEL route...it actually is quite full according to my friends who work it.

mogandoCI · Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:16 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 44):
P2P? All of those link major foreign markets with major U.S. hubs for AA. A "single TPAC hub" is not economically or strategically feasible for AA - or really any U.S. carrier - just because of the sheer size of the U.S. No U.S. carrier - including Delta and United - have a "single TPAC hub."

UA has a single core TPAC hub at SFO with bespoke services out of other hubs. DL used to have a single DTW hub but started to realize SEA is more geographically favorable. AA could easily pick LAX or ORD.

Quoting commavia (Reply 44):
Would it be 17 hours? It's less than 60 miles longer than EWR-HKG, which is scheduled at or just below 16 hours westbound.

DFW-HKG westbound would require a much more southerly routing (i.e. headwinds) than a near pure-polar routing of EWR-HKG. Also, the great circle routing goes straight through Pyongyang, so I'd imagine some sort of detour is in order.

LAXdude1023 · Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 46):
UA has a single core TPAC hub at SFO with bespoke services out of other hubs.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 46):
AA could easily pick LAX or ORD.

While UA has SFO as its largest Asian hub, UA's Asian network (ex-NRT) is scattered between SFO, ORD, and EWR. For that reason, I dont think the first statement is accurate. The only destinations served from SFO that arent from ORD or EWR are KIX, ICN, and TPE.

DL has DTW as its primary hub, but has built up SEA to Asia and ATL has service to NRT and ICN. They arent centralized either.

As for AA, why force everything through one place when they dont have to? UA and DL dont, why should AA?

mogandoCI · Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:26 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 44):
Well, "hub-to-hub for the sake of it," when the hubs on both ends are massive like with DFW-HKG, isn't such a bad thing.

DL's ATL-PVG is also massive on both ends, and that failed miserably (with 500 mile shorter routing, longer range equipment, better brand recognition, and less backtracking for mainland China)

I'm not saying AA won't succeed on DFW-HKG, but if history is of any guidance, they would need a lot of luck.

cgnnrw · Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:46 pm

Happy to see another carrier/destination from DUS to the States. Although I was secretly hoping for DUS-DTW or DUS-PHL (previously discussed on another thread) I'm not as pessimistic about this as other posters. Even with a limited amount of AB connections on the DUS side I think this could prove to be a success for AA.

The catchment area for DUS is very large and reaches over into the Netherlands. The rail connections are very good. This alone speaks for DUS. Yes, rail connections with the ICE to FRA are convenient but many trains pass by the DUS station anyway so why not hop out at the DUS station and leave from there?

What type of product do the AA 767s have?

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