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AAplat4life
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:30 am

I'm going to have to put my money on the Star team to prevail on the ORD-DUS route. It has a better product than the AA 767 and more capacity (A343 I believe but one could see an A333). At this stage, relying on AB is a gamble. We have Air France courting AB to join Skyteam. Etihad now owns more than 20% of AB, and one of its competitors, Qatar, is joining oneworld. So there is little reason to think that it would stand in the way of AB leaving oneworld. Some analysts have suggested that AB receives little out of oneworld, because most of oneworld remains focused on Frankfurt and not on the German cities where AB has better market presence. Delta could provide more traffic to AB than AA's one flight from ORD to DUS, and that could bolster the case for AB leaving oneworld. Although at this point it does not appear that AB has decided to leave oneworld, keep in mind that AB is also a struggling airline and has to weigh its options.

Moreover, history has shown that AA cannot compete with Star out of ORD to Germany. There was a time when AA had the most destinations to Europe out of ORD, but no longer as Star has shown it is the better competitor on most EU routes.

This looks like another half-baked decision by AMR management to address its weakened network and trying to placate AB to stay in oneworld. I have nothing against AB, but financially it is not a strong airline right now. Under the circumstances, I would have been more impressed with DFW-DUS. I don't see AA surviving on ORD-DUS.

Which brings me to DFW-ICN. If this was such a high demand route, AA would have started it years ago. To the extent that this is an effort by AA to make some in-roads on a route controlled right now by Korean Air, then let's give management some credit for trying. However, as AA begins to reconfigure its 777 with 10 abreast seating in coach and KE investing in high end aircraft, let the better airline win. Time will tell. If AA prevails, then it also may want to consider ORD-ICN, which is another KE route. (I think Asiana dropped this route.) Frankly though I would have liked to have seen AA start LAX-ICN and bolster its LAX network.
 
jfk777
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:46 am

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
However, as AA begins to reconfigure its 777 with 10 abreast seating in coach and KE investing in high end aircraft, let the better airline win. Time will tell. If AA prevails, then it also may want to consider ORD-ICN, which is another KE route. (I think Asiana dropped this route.) Frankly though I would have liked to have seen AA start LAX-ICN and bolster its LAX network.

AA going tfrom 9 to 10 seats per row on their 777 is just adjusting to the market. They are killing First Class on their 777-200ER fleet and will have an awesome Cathay Pacific J class which looks like a winner.
 
commavia
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:13 pm

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
I'm going to have to put my money on the Star team to prevail on the ORD-DUS route. It has a better product than the AA 767 and more capacity (A343 I believe but one could see an A333).

In terms of hard and soft product, LH will win hands down. Ironically, though, LH - the German carrier - will actually probably not have quite as big an advantage at the German end of the route as at the U.S. end. LH will obviously benefit from UA's huge ORD hub, but I actually believe - could be wrong though - that AB has a larger operation at DUS than LH (not sure if that includes LH's partners, though).

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
At this stage, relying on AB is a gamble. We have Air France courting AB to join Skyteam. Etihad now owns more than 20% of AB, and one of its competitors, Qatar, is joining oneworld. So there is little reason to think that it would stand in the way of AB leaving oneworld.

It's not that much of a gamble, because very little is being "gambled." If AB leaves oneworld, AA stops the flight. It's that simple. It's not like AA is sinking huge investment into the DUS market.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
This looks like another half-baked decision by AMR management to address its weakened network

Does it? I'm not so sure.

To be clear: I actually do share your skepticism about AA's long-term prospects on ORD-DUS. But perhaps AA would simply like to bolster its presence in Germany, the world's fourth largest economy and the best-performing country in Europe right now, and feel that a surgical addition into the hub of a partner in Germany makes sense. That makes sense to me. This isn't a large investment, and if the flight doesn't work, they can kill it next September at little cost or penalty.

On the "weakened network," I actually think yesterday's announcements constitute AA making some smart, strategic moves to bolster their global network and make it competitive with DL and UA. (In other words: what they should have done five years ago.) In Latin America, AA's lead is enormous and will continue to be. Across the Pacific, AA is now not far off from where it needs to be - just a few more additions and I think AA is competitively set. In Europe, AA is still far behind DL and UA, but of course DL and UA (for obvious reasons) have been cutting Europe left and right and retreating, in many cases, to the relative safety of their partners hubs. (In other words: AA's strategy all along.) AA needs to add a few more markets in Europe, and to some extent bolster their domestic network to orient it towards European connections, and then there, too, I think AA will be generally getting closer to where it needs to be. Don't get me wrong AA still has work to do on their network - no question. But I think yesterday's announcement gets them closer to where they need to be, and wasn't a "half-baked decision" that gets them further away.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
and trying to placate AB to stay in oneworld.

I highly doubt that any airline - especially AA - would invest in adding a route simply to "placate" another carrier, particularly one with which it does not have any sort of joint business or revenue-sharing agreement.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
Which brings me to DFW-ICN. If this was such a high demand route, AA would have started it years ago.

That is a logical fallacy. Just because something hasn't happened before doesn't disprove that it could happen in the future. Saying that because AA has not in the past found sufficient demand to justify service on a route means that it will not be able to find such demand in the future is false.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
However, as AA begins to reconfigure its 777 with 10 abreast seating in coach and KE investing in high end aircraft, let the better airline win.

It will all depend on how consumers define "better airline." For some that will mean better hard and soft product (AA will soon be nearly competitive in J, not in Y when it comes to hard product, KE will always win on soft product). For some that will mean schedule convenience - AA's daily flight will likely often win there. For some it will be frequent flyer program - AA will benefit on the DFW end, KE on the ICN end. For some it will be connectivity - again, AA will win on the DFW end, KE on the ICN end. You seem to imply that KE is the clear "better airline," but in this market, I think AA should definitely be able to more than hold its own. The two carriers are to a large extent catering to different market segments - and as such I think they should be able to coexist.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
If AA prevails, then it also may want to consider ORD-ICN, which is another KE route.

Doubtful. ORD-ICN is a totally different market with an entirely different competitive dynamic. The reasons why AA should be able to make DFW-ICN work are unique to the DFW-ICN market, and don't translate elsewhere.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
Frankly though I would have liked to have seen AA start LAX-ICN and bolster its LAX network.

With the massive amount of capacity KE has on LAX-ICN, to say nothing of OZ, I doubt any U.S. carrier - AA or otherwise - could profitably make an LAX-ICN flight work.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 101):
AA going tfrom 9 to 10 seats per row on their 777 is just adjusting to the market. They are killing First Class on their 777-200ER fleet and will have an awesome Cathay Pacific J class which looks like a winner.

  

Much has been made of AA's move (eventually) to 10-across Y on the 777s, but I doubt it will have all that much impact since the majority of people are still going to book their travel based on a variety of considerations other than the width of the seat. They might notice it somewhat when they're on the plane, but the vast majority of travelers are still going to prioritize schedule, frequent flyer program, connectivity, and above all price before seat width.

And as for the premium cabin - yeah, the new J AA is going to be rolling out on the 777s is going to be incredible. That new J seat - essentially a modified version of the CX J seat - is nicer than AA's original 777 F seat, and nicer than just about any other J product on the market today. That should be quite competitive.
 
AAplat4life
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:16 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 101):

AA going tfrom 9 to 10 seats per row on their 777 is just adjusting to the market. They are killing First Class on their 777-200ER fleet and will have an awesome Cathay Pacific J class which looks like a winner.

The J class may very well prove to be a winner, but I don't think we can conclude yet that the 10 abreast in coach is adjusting to the market. On the specific route that I was referring to, DFW-ICN, I don't believe that the competitor, KE, has gone to 10 abreast in coach. Out of ORD or JFK, I don't believe that UA or DL has gone there as well. Yes, some airlines have gone to 10 abreast in coach, but overall not the ones that AA directly competes with. In fact, I don't even think that other major oneworld carriers have gone there yet as well. They might, but then again a competitor like United or Delta might also uses their configuration as a marketing advantage.

For now, I would say that the new 777 configuration will be to AA's disadvantage in competing on several routes including DFW-ICN. AAdvantage miles don't compensate for everything.
 
commavia
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:29 pm

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 103):
Out of ORD or JFK, I don't believe that UA or DL has gone there as well. Yes, some airlines have gone to 10 abreast in coach, but overall not the ones that AA directly competes with.

UA is 9-across on their 787s which, I believe, is essentially the same seat-width as a 10-across 777, so if I'm not mistaken, yes, AA's direct competitors are beginning to move in this direction.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 103):
They might, but then again a competitor like United or Delta might also uses their configuration as a marketing advantage.

I think more likely if AA moves to a slightly narrower longhaul Y seat, and the market doesn't push back dramatically, UA and DL will soon match. The cost advantage that will give AA - of being able to cram in more Y seats in the same metal tube - will be more than UA or DL can bear, in my opinion. If AA does successfully go to the new configuration, UA and DL will have no choice but to compete.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 103):
For now, I would say that the new 777 configuration will be to AA's disadvantage in competing on several routes including DFW-ICN. AAdvantage miles don't compensate for everything.

And I would say that is false, in my opinion. I don't think AA's configuration will put AA at much, if any, competitive disadvantage at all. And of course what it will do is substantially reduce the CASM of those aircraft, which will help AA price competitively. And while you say that AAdvantage miles "don't compensate for everything" - which is true - I think there are plenty of AA FFs who would say they compensate for a lot. And besides, in this market, AA is going to be able to bring to bear other competitive advantages besides just AAdvantage. AA's schedule will be daily, and it will offer massive connections on the DFW end, just to name two.
 
AAplat4life
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:38 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 102):
To be clear: I actually do share your skepticism about AA's long-term prospects on ORD-DUS. But perhaps AA would simply like to bolster its presence in Germany, the world's fourth largest economy and the best-performing country in Europe right now, and feel that a surgical addition into the hub of a partner in Germany makes sense. That makes sense to me. This isn't a large investment, and if the flight doesn't work, they can kill it next September at little cost or penalty.

Well you are correct, AA should have a better presence in Germany. Right now, it is down to 1 maybe 2 flights a day into FRA? I think 1 flight out of DFW. Although I am encouraged by more ORD flight options, I think the DUS route is not going to succeed. Hence, another half-baked effort by AMR management.

Quoting commavia (Reply 102):
You seem to imply that KE is the clear "better airline," but in this market, I think AA should definitely be able to more than hold its own.

I did not imply that KE is the clear better airline, just probably the better airline. I said let the market decide and, if AA succeeds, then perhaps it can explore its other options such as ORD-ICN. However, I do not think that KE and AA will both prosper on the DFW-ICN route and there will ultimately be one survivor. I think AA has a shot given its huge DFW presence to win, but it is competing against a better airline.
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 92):
In terms of what AA "needs," it's at a good position in LAX and it does not need to do much more, but plenty of opportunity if it elects to chase it.

How tight is AA's gate space situation at LAX?

We've had past discussions here that AA's growth at LAX is constrained because they are already maxing out their facilities at T4, and it will be a couple of years before AA gets access to gates at an expanded TBIT.

Would it be possible for AA to add more mainline flights at LAX without using remote parking?
 
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gdg9
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 88):
I have hypothisized that DFW-NRT will eventually be one daily 77W

A few years ago at least, DFW-NRT was filling both planes with freight, not sure how it is today. Surely there is also enough freight for DFW-ICN and two DFW-NRT flights?
@dfwtower
 
commavia
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 105):
I did not imply that KE is the clear better airline
Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 105):
but it is competing against a better airline.

 
Quoting gdg9 (Reply 107):
A few years ago at least, DFW-NRT was filling both planes with freight, not sure how it is today. Surely there is also enough freight for DFW-ICN and two DFW-NRT flights?

I think DFW-NRT may well still be able to support 2x daily flights even with DFW-ICN. A nonstop DFW-ICN will absolutely pull a lot of traffic off the DFW-NRT flights, but as the JBA develops I suspect that will boost volume on DFW-NRT. Look at what has happened on DFW-LHR: the amount of demand that the JBA with BA has generated has led to frequency and capacity beyond anything AA has ever previously been able to support. The growth of DFW-LHR has been phenomenal. DFW-NRT may end up being the same.

I still don't think it's impossible that in a few years we could still be seeing 2x daily on DFW-NRT 1x AA 77W, and 1x JL 77W.
 
hoons90
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:54 pm

I will definitely be a frequent flyer on the new AA DFW-ICN route, even if it means enduring 3-4-3 in Y.

Why? AAdvantage is an amazing FFP. Korean Air SkyPass is a total joke, as are most other SkyTeam FFPs. What would only require 50,000 EQMs on AA would require 500,000 on KE for the same type of perks. AAdvantage off-peak redemption rates are incredibly competitive as well.

My goal for next year is to reach Platinum status, and eventually Executive Platinum after I graduate from university.

I've flown American on numerous occasions and they've always been good to me. What also benefits me is that AA also has a decent network out of my primary airport, YYZ.
Flown: 2L 7C 9E 9L AA AB AC AF AY AZ BA BR BX B6 CA CO CP CX DL EK EY JL KE KL LA LH LX MQ NW OZ PD RW SQ TG TP TR TS US WG WN WS XE XJ
 
mogandoCI
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:56 pm

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
If AA prevails, then it also may want to consider ORD-ICN, which is another KE route. (I think Asiana dropped this route.)

Quite the contrary, ICN-ORD is the first route that Asiana is deploying their brand new First suite (actual suite with sliding doors) with industry-leading 32" TV screen.

Quoting commavia (Reply 104):
UA is 9-across on their 787s which, I believe, is essentially the same seat-width as a 10-across 777, so if I'm not mistaken, yes, AA's direct competitors are beginning to move in this direction.

787 with 9-abreast is rumored to be same seat width as 737/747 economy. From my experience on AF 77W, there's no way that 10-abreast 77W is the same as 747 (and by inference, the 787). And my shoulders are already narrower than the average American. Have you actually sat in one ?
 
commavia
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 110):
Quite the contrary, ICN-ORD is the first route that Asiana is deploying their brand new First suite (actual suite with sliding doors) with industry-leading 32" TV screen.

Indeed.

AA would never, in my view, be able to make ORD-ICN work. And not just because OZ will always have a superior product. AA's ORD hub is also not sufficiently strong enough to support such a flight, in my opinion, and that market (local ORD-ICN) is also not large enough to support that much additional capacity.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 110):
787 with 9-abreast is rumored to be same seat width as 737/747 economy.

My mistake then.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 110):
Have you actually sat in one ?

Nope - can't say I have, honestly. That's why you'll note that I wasn't commenting on the actual comfort of 10-across 77W Y. I have no doubt it will be less comfortable, and I myself am certainly not looking forward to it. But I still don't think it is going to have all that detrimental an impact on AA's demand, and if it does, AA will have no choice but to quickly reverse course.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:19 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 111):
But I still don't think it is going to have all that detrimental an impact on AA's demand, and if it does, AA will have no choice but to quickly reverse course.

That's why it's best to deploy it on routes where no strong competitor exist, out of dominant hubs where the captive audience are loyal regardless. Basing them out of DFW and MIA seems better than JFK/LAX, where consumers have tons of alternatives to pick and choose.

The new F is nice, J is top notch, but on JFK-LHR i'd much prefer taking BA over AA in all 3 classes.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 9):
AA2193 | DFW-LIM | 17:30-00:25 | 752 | D
AA2194 | LIM-DFW | 02:00-09:15 | 752 | D
Quoting realsim (Reply 9):
AA27 | DFW-ICN | 10:30-15:00 | 772 | D
AA26 | ICN-DFW | 17:00-16:20 | 772 | D

Looking at this schedule, will you be able to connect between LIM and ICN at DFW? I dont know what the market size is, but I would think they would try to arrange it so connections could be made?
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
AeroWesty
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 104):
I think more likely if AA moves to a slightly narrower longhaul Y seat, and the market doesn't push back dramatically, UA and DL will soon match.

DL's 777 fleet is a minor percentage of their international lift. My guess is DL won't follow the crowd, as they've invested a lot lately in the passenger experience. Reducing seat width on their 777s would make them an oddball in relation to their 767s, A330s and 747s where they don't have the combination of small seat+small aisle width that a 3-4-3 configuration on the 777 yields.
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BoeingGuy
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:30 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 113):
Looking at this schedule, will you be able to connect between LIM and ICN at DFW? I dont know what the market size is, but I would think they would try to arrange it so connections could be made?

I would think the connecting market for the DFW-LIM flight is more geared towards SEA, SJC, SNA, PDX, SLC, AUS, etc rather than ICN. Likewise, I would expect that AA is targeting connections to the DFW-ICN flight to me more like MIA, MCO, LFT, MSY, IAH, etc rather than LIM.
 
AA767400
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:33 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 43):
ORD - PEK / PVG
LAX - PVG
DFW - ICN

It's nice to see them finally expanding to Asia, but a single TPAC hub probably would serve them better than seemingly p2p services.

Regarding DFW-HKG rumors, it feels like ORD-HEL : hub-to-hub for the sake of it. 8123mi for a mostly connection-oriented route requires EK-level CASM to make it work (i'd dread 3-4-3 on this 17 hour flight)

What will it take - in your opinion, for AA to compete against UA/DL? You seem to downplay any positive from the airline, and nothing seems to work for you. So please, do tell what would work?

AA gutted their labor contracts in order to level the laying field, and be able to better compete. Once they settle the pilot contract, they will be able to expand more.
"The low fares airline."
 
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LAXintl
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:33 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 113):
Looking at this schedule, will you be able to connect between LIM and ICN at DFW?

Looking in GDS no. It says the minimum legal connection time needed is 1:30.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 117):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 113):
Looking at this schedule, will you be able to connect between LIM and ICN at DFW?

Looking in GDS no. It says the minimum legal connection time needed is 1:30.

Just because it's allowable doesn't mean it's wise. I never schedule less than probably 2:30 in an international connection - more if possible. I've seen people schedule foolishly short connecting times that leave no padding for delays, and then blame the airline when they miss their connection.
 
miaami
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:50 pm

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 116):
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 43):
ORD - PEK / PVG
LAX - PVG
DFW - ICN

It's nice to see them finally expanding to Asia, but a single TPAC hub probably would serve them better than seemingly p2p services.

Regarding DFW-HKG rumors, it feels like ORD-HEL : hub-to-hub for the sake of it. 8123mi for a mostly connection-oriented route requires EK-level CASM to make it work (i'd dread 3-4-3 on this 17 hour flight)

What will it take - in your opinion, for AA to compete against UA/DL? You seem to downplay any positive from the airline, and nothing seems to work for you. So please, do tell what would work?

AA gutted their labor contracts in order to level the laying field, and be able to better compete. Once they settle the pilot contract, they will be able to expand more.


They also convienetly omit
ORD - NRT
LAX - NRT
DFW NRT X2
JFK -HND
all of which, through their joint venture with JAL connect to most all of Asia.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:57 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 115):

I would think the connecting market for the DFW-LIM flight is more geared towards SEA, SJC, SNA, PDX, SLC, AUS, etc rather than ICN. Likewise, I would expect that AA is targeting connections to the DFW-ICN flight to me more like MIA, MCO, LFT, MSY, IAH, etc rather than LIM.

No doubt, but I would have thought that they would try to maximize connections from those flights anyway. I dont know how big the ICN-LIM market is, but DFW would have been a great place for connections.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
realsim
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:15 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 115):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 113):
Looking at this schedule, will you be able to connect between LIM and ICN at DFW? I dont know what the market size is, but I would think they would try to arrange it so connections could be made?

I would think the connecting market for the DFW-LIM flight is more geared towards SEA, SJC, SNA, PDX, SLC, AUS, etc rather than ICN. Likewise, I would expect that AA is targeting connections to the DFW-ICN flight to me more like MIA, MCO, LFT, MSY, IAH, etc rather than LIM.

In the press release they only explicitly mentioned Tokyo as a connection destination from LIM, so I guess it's one of they main targets.

The schedule for this connection will be:

AA2194 | LIM-DFW | 02:00-09:15 | 752 | D
AA0061 | DFW-NRT | 11:40-16:15 | 772 | D

AA0060 | NRT-DFW | 19:10-15:45 | 772 | D
AA2193 | DFW-LIM | 17:30-00:25 | 752 | D
 
mogandoCI
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:22 pm

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 116):
What will it take - in your opinion, for AA to compete against UA/DL? You seem to downplay any positive from the airline, and nothing seems to work for you. So please, do tell what would work?

Read my posts again before jumping to conclusions. Europe and LatAm is large enough that multi hub strategy could prevail. For AA, Asia is small enough of a market that not concentrating non-NRT services onto a single hub diminishes the value proposition for all of them.

Since DL likes SEA and UA has SFO locked down how about AA take a stab at LAX ? since all of AA's current non-NRT routes have no feed on the other side, it's even more important to concentrate the fire power on this side of the ocean.

If I'm from PEK i could only go to ORD
If i'm from LAX i could only go to PVG
If i'm from ICN i could only go to DFW

3 out of 4 routes and I could list 6 airports.
 
dcajet
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 89):
7) Miami-Manila

   

Miami - Manila? Where did you pull that one from?
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
AA767400
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 122):
Read my posts again before jumping to conclusions. Europe and LatAm is large enough that multi hub strategy could prevail. For AA, Asia is small enough of a market that not concentrating non-NRT services onto a single hub diminishes the value proposition for all of them.

I have, in fact many times. No conclusions here. Since UA has SFO, and DL somewhat has SEA, what does AA need to do to compete?

Add LAX- PEK/NGO/HKG/ICN/TPE/MNL/CAN/KIX/SYD/AKL? Nix 10 across on the 77W? Set up NRT hub? Add channel 9?
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AeroWesty
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:08 pm

Quoting dcajet (Reply 123):
Miami - Manila? Where did you pull that one from?

That one made me blink too. I can only guess at it's from Filipino staffing in the hospitality industry plus shipping/cruise lines based in Miami/S. Florida. I'd be interested to see if my guess was right.
International Homo of Mystery
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:19 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 101):
AA going tfrom 9 to 10 seats per row on their 777 is just adjusting to the market. They are killing First Class on their 777-200ER fleet and will have an awesome Cathay Pacific J class which looks like a winner.

The 773 will have Cathay J.

The 772 will have a brand new J product that AA itself is helping develop.
a.
 
delta2ual
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:48 pm

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 58):
No one knows how DFW-SYD is doing

Actually, QF itself has said they are quite pleased with the results thus far.

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 100):
We have Air France courting AB to join Skyteam

Even if AB switched to SkyTeam, couldn't they still codeshare with AA? It seems many airlines in each alliance are going outside the alliance to codeshare anyway.
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting dcajet (Reply 123):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 89):
7) Miami-Manila



Miami - Manila? Where did you pull that one from?

It's a large local market. Cruise ship crews need to get to their ships.

[Edited 2012-10-25 11:53:15]
a.
 
mogandoCI
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 124):
Add LAX- PEK/NGO/HKG/ICN/TPE/MNL/CAN/KIX/SYD/AKL? Nix 10 across on the 77W? Set up NRT hub? Add channel 9?

No, they should totally stay the course. Hand off everyone at NRT and LHR then sit back and count the joint venture money.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4816
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 128):

It's a large local market. Cruise ship crews need to get to their ships

Can you quote the source from where you got that ranking please? Miami - Manila and to a lesser extent Miami - Hong Kong have very little grounding in reality to be on such ranking. There are very few or non existing business or leisure economic ties between the Philippines, HK SAR and the Miami/Ft Lauderdale metro area.

Even if you get a steady stream of cruise ship crews, how many are there per day? That does not make a large local market. And not all of them are from the Philippines!

And regarding hotels workers, in the Miami area with its ample supply of immigrants from the Caribbean and LatAm there is no need for Filipino workers to cover.
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aaway
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:47 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 106):
How tight is AA's gate space situation at LAX?

We've had past discussions here that AA's growth at LAX is constrained because they are already maxing out their facilities at T4, and it will be a couple of years before AA gets access to gates at an expanded TBIT.

Would it be possible for AA to add more mainline flights at LAX without using remote parking?

The short answer is yes, but any additional mainline flights would likely be shorthaul operations during off peak hours.

To expound a bit, the current schedule, fleet mix, and gate geometry affects AA's ability to add longhaul flying during peak hours. As an example, gates 41 and 43 were purposely designed to accommodate up to Group V aircraft. The trade off restricts (closes) gate 45 when 43 is occupied by said design group a/c. The current 777 rotations close 45 for several hours each day.

Regarding TBIT - Not only will all AA international flights gate there, I believe AA will gate a high-frequency domestic destination at TBIT.

Additionally, don't be surprised if AA decides to partially redevelop the south end of T4 (the gates 46 through 48 area) into a complex of 5 to 6 gates in order to accommodate larger gauge Eagle a/c. Think in terms of that portion of the fleet containing a first class section.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:37 am

Quoting dcajet (Reply 130):
Can you quote the source from where you got that ranking please? Miami - Manila and to a lesser extent Miami - Hong Kong have very little grounding in reality to be on such ranking. There are very few or non existing business or leisure economic ties between the Philippines, HK SAR and the Miami/Ft Lauderdale metro area.

It's MIDT data, not publicly quoteable. Those are approximately the largest Southeast U.S.-Asia markets. MIAMNL sees significant cruise ship employee traffic, end of story. It's a big market, yield sucks. How many people per day? It's around 50-55.

There are significant economic ties between Miami and Hong Kong, most prominently with Swire having its key base of operations in this hemisphere out of Miami. Not only is MIAHKG a good size local market, the average fares are extremely high. They are two of the world's largest trade hubs, which drives a lot of demand in a market that is largely premium. Cathay officials have been at MIA in the past few months discussing service, and publicly mentioned plans to inaugurate passenger service to Miami in the future at the media event for the inaugural Cathay cargo 747-8 flight.

[Edited 2012-10-25 23:40:17]
a.
 
texan
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:14 pm

But I thought eliminating the Wright Amendment made DFW-LIM unprofitable  

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
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WROORD
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:41 am

I hope ORD-DUS works for AA I flew several times with LH on this route and the plane was full. Many pax prefer to transfer in DUS vs. FRA. However LH fie to many European destinations from DUS and AB mostly to leisure places in Spain, Italy, Greece and Turkey with minimal European coverage. Not sure f that alone can make this route a success, unless AB will add new destinations out of DUS.
 
miaintl
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:13 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 132):

What aircraft is able to fly MIA-HKG nonstop? Plus just because the fares are high does not mean that has anything to do with premium demand.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1143
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 41):
Will this make ICN the Asian airport served by the most amount of US-based (passenger) airlines? There will be AA, UA, DL and HA.

I think NRT is served by all four. Or does HA not fly to NRT?

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 74):
AI is an airline with a so-so reputation and can't even close the deal to enter Star Alliance. Don't really understand why AA has trouble competing with that (but would do fine against Korean Air) ?

Not being able to close the deal with Star does not have any impact on AI competing with AA. If AI offers rock bottom fares on the route irrespective of alliance, it is going to hurt AA.
Regarding AI's so-so reputation, what makes you think the AA reputation is better especially for those outside USA?
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:30 pm

In 2011, these were the largest South-Asia O&D markets:

1) Atlanta-Seoul
2) Dallas-Seoul
3) Houston-Saigon
4) Miami-Manila
5) Orlando-Tokyo
6) Houston-Manila
7) Dallas-Tokyo
8) Houston-Singapore
9) Dallas-Saigon
10) Houston-Tokyo

Of interesting note, there is a large gap between ATLICN and DFWICN and there is also a large gap between DFWICN and IAHSGN. IAHSGN, MIAMNL, and MCONRT are all almost identical in size. DFWNRT, IANSIN, DFWSGN, and IAHNRT are also very close in size.

Looking at the data, traffic to Japan is way down in 2011. No doubt due to the tsunami.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
bobnwa
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:09 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 137):
In 2011, these were the largest South-Asia O&D markets:

Do you have the point of sale ie:US or South Asia for the markets listed?
 
hoons90
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:22 pm

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 136):
I think NRT is served by all four. Or does HA not fly to NRT?

HA flies to HND instead of NRT.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 137):
In 2011, these were the largest South-Asia O&D markets:

Thanks for the info! Not a surprise that ATL will get the KE A380.
Flown: 2L 7C 9E 9L AA AB AC AF AY AZ BA BR BX B6 CA CO CP CX DL EK EY JL KE KL LA LH LX MQ NW OZ PD RW SQ TG TP TR TS US WG WN WS XE XJ
 
AAIL86
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:45 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 137):
3) Houston-Saigon
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 137):
9) Dallas-Saigon

Shouldn't that be Ho Chi Minh City?  
" Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness ... Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. ” - Mark Twain, 1869
 
hoons90
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:15 am

http://www.traveldailynews.asia/news...744/american-airlines-will-land-in

The article above states that KE plans to increase DFW service to daily starting next spring...I think not!

I'd expect to see either a 3x weekly 772 service or a complete withdrawal from the Metroplex.
Flown: 2L 7C 9E 9L AA AB AC AF AY AZ BA BR BX B6 CA CO CP CX DL EK EY JL KE KL LA LH LX MQ NW OZ PD RW SQ TG TP TR TS US WG WN WS XE XJ
 
neveragain
Posts: 466
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting texan (Reply 133):
But I thought eliminating the Wright Amendment made DFW-LIM unprofitable

No, it was adding Missouri to the Wright Amendment states. Just think of all of that connecting traffic from Kansas City and St. Louis to Lima!

That was 6 years ago for DFW . . . fast forward 6 years from today and we'll see what UA is doing at IAH 6 years after its nonsensical threats.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6410
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RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:11 pm

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 140):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 137):
3) Houston-Saigon
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 137):
9) Dallas-Saigon

Shouldn't that be Ho Chi Minh City?

This is just like the debate on the recent thread on NH NRT-RGN, about whether it's Myanmar or Burma or Rangon or Yangoon. For political reasons, some people (myself included) choose to call places like Saigon and Burma by their per-dictatorship or per-communism names. Of course if I were talking to officials then I'd say Ho Chi Min City or Myanmar.

AA code-shares with JL on the NRT-SGN and NRT-HAN flights but if DFW/IAH-SGN have so much traffic then perhaps AA should consider sending one of their 777s DFW-NRT-SGN? AA hasn't yet tried beyond NRT flights on their own metal they way NW/DL and UA have. Maybe it's time?

Quoting neveragain (Reply 142):
Quoting texan (Reply 133):
But I thought eliminating the Wright Amendment made DFW-LIM unprofitable

No, it was adding Missouri to the Wright Amendment states. Just think of all of that connecting traffic from Kansas City and St. Louis to Lima!

I think that was partially meant as a joke. When AA discontinued DFW-LIM and a few other routes they made it sound like it was because of the Wright Amendment, which people commented at the time was ludicrous. I suspect the poster was poking fun at that. I did DFW-LIM in 2002: completely full going down but only about 50% load factor on the flight back to DFW.
 
neveragain
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:59 pm

RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:42 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 143):
I think that was partially meant as a joke.

Of course it was entirely meant as a joke. However, I think DFW-LIM was stopped after Missouri was added as a state, but before the settlement to fully repeal the WA restrictions was reached.
 
HeeseokKoo
Posts: 823
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:54 pm

RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:48 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 141):

http://www.traveldailynews.asia/news...744/american-airlines-will-land-in

The article above states that KE plans to increase DFW service to daily starting next spring...I think not!

I'd expect to see either a 3x weekly 772 service or a complete withdrawal from the Metroplex.

For now, it seems KE is planning daily service from May 6th to Aug 31st. Still angled lie-flat business class equipment is deployed, but KE may upgrade to the fully flat one to beat AA's J product. We'll see how this competition goes.
 
miaami
Posts: 945
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:27 am

RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:51 pm

DFW-ICN, DFW-LIM, ORD-DUS, JFK-DUB, were all loaded into Reservations last night and are now avail for purchase. Great to see AA expanding and specially into Asia.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6224
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:45 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 117):
Looking in GDS no. It says the minimum legal connection time needed is 1:30.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 118):
Just because it's allowable doesn't mean it's wise. I never schedule less than probably 2:30 in an international connection - more if possible. I've seen people schedule foolishly short connecting times that leave no padding for delays, and then blame the airline when they miss their connection.

Just FYI, ICN-LIM through DFW is being sold as a legal connection with the current schedule. It is available that way on AA.com and GDS. The schedule is below and can be purchased normally:

AA2194 15MAY LIMDFW 200A 915A
AA 27 15MAY DFWICN 1030A 300P
AA 26 22MAY ICNDFW 500P 420P
AA2193 22MAY DFWLIM 530P 1225A
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
User avatar
IrishAyes
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:04 pm

RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:00 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 147):
It is available that way on AA.com and GDS. The schedule is below and can be purchased normally:

Oof. Those are pretty tight connection times though.
 
neveragain
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:59 pm

RE: AA DFW To ICN Begins... Along With Other Routes

Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:12 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 147):
ust FYI, ICN-LIM through DFW is being sold as a legal connection with the current schedule.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 117):
Looking in GDS no. It says the minimum legal connection time needed is 1:30.

So this was updated?

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