Scandinavian Airlines Really Close To Bankruptcy

CF-CPI · Sun Oct 28, 2012 10:22 pm

Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 48):
Quite a collection I would say.

I think the SAS management team are also anetters, who enjoy visualizing everything in SAS colors. I had completely missed the 737-400 and the A319. Combining our two lists, I see a big headache for crew training and scheduling.

But seriously, will the Blue 1 Boeing 717 aircraft be painted in SAS colors? I have mixed feelings about that, as the Blue 1 colors are really very nice.

LN-KGL · Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:59 pm

The Blue1 B712 will stay in the colours they have for now, but all their routes have now SK code instead of KF.

To add to the SK collection, the first Airbus A320-200 will arrive shortly.

PlymSpotter · Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:42 am

Quoting Thomas_Jaeger (Reply 4):
I am not sure if the ATR 42-600 can really make it into all of these small airports in Norway where the Dash 8-100 currently operates.

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 5):
You are right, it can't...

I disagree, I think the 42 would be able to fulfill all current operations. The runways are short, but they are at sea level and cool. No doubt there would be a weight penalty on some routes, but I can't see this reducing the number of available seats compared to the Dash 8-100. Unless the -200 goes back into production or we see a clean sheet 30 seater, I don't see any other option.

Dan

prebennorholm · Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 46):
...we send no love across Öresund now....

I'm really sorry to hear that

Quoting sweair (Reply 46):
It annoys me that I pay for Danish employment...

Did you ever make it across Ôresund? If so, then you may have noticed that about half of the staff at CPH are Swedes. Simply because it is easier to go to CPH from Malmö than from any other major city in the world.

Maybe the beautiful Scania dialect fools you? But believe me, it is Swedish language, aeh, sort of.

[Edited 2012-10-28 18:01:00]

copenhagenboy · Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:40 am

I think it is funny that people always say that Norwegian is cheaper.
Two years ago, I had to go to Kos from CPH.
It was not just holiday.
Norwegian gave me a price from 8000 to 10000 DKK return, of course direct.
I chose SAS to ATH and changed to KOS on Aegean with a one hour stopover.
What did I pay for the same dates return 3.500 DKK!!!!! on Aegean/SAS.

prebennorholm · Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 32):
What people tend to forget is also when things go wrong. I would choose SK over any LCC if there is a cancellation or heavy delay. With SK you get re-booked either with a later flight or partner airline. With DY???

That reminds me of one of the later SK "master blunders".

Four people rented an abandoned wine castle near Rome for holidays. They went on a travel agency web site to find fitting schedules from Copenhagen to Rome, and bought with QI on the way out and SK back home.

Unfortunately, before time was up they read in the newspaper that QI was bankrupt and didn't exist any more. That was of course a setback, but nothing which could interfere with their holiday since "all roads lead to Rome". Back to the keyboard and DY helped them to Rome.

They had a very nice holiday, until they had to go home. SK refused to carry them. Their tickets had been canceled because they didn't check in on their outward flight at the non-existent QI check-in counter.

Again DY came to their rescue. Now they had bought two full roundtrips to Rome for going only once. Back home SK also refused to refund the homeward tickets.

But it was a very nice holiday, and the rest - a complaint about SK's refusal to honor their ticket - was left at the travel ombudsman.

Of course SK immediately gave in and refunded their tickets back home, but too late, only after it had landed on the travel ombudsman's desk, and consequently in the press, and all damage had been done. A TV station even made a 25 minutes program mostly about this incident (but also about some strange behavior of other airlines), and it was re-broadcast a few days ago.

That TV program was worth millions for DY. They would never be able to make such a TV commercial themselves.

I wonder what sort of SK people it takes to simply ignore a ticket because another airline serving the same travel agency goes belly up. If I acted in a similar way in my business (another sort of customer service business), then I would certainly be looking for a new job within five minutes. That's one reason why my company makes a profit.

JU068 · Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:49 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 52):
I think the 42 would be able to fulfill all current operations.

I think so too. Olympic Airways used the Atr-42 on its domestic network to remote Greek islands. Some of those airports are a true nightmare with short runways and strong winds.

vv701 · Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:10 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 1):
Don't understand what they can gain from a possible sale of Widerøe wich is one of the few parts of SAS that really ean money.

Selling off the family silver is, of course, a last resort. But if you are cash-strapped and faced with possible bankruptcy it is sometimes the only way to avoid bankruptcy. But it only works if you use the cash injection to turn the rump of the organisation around.

At a consumer level there is a whole industry based on this principle. It is called "pawn broking".

Quoting Ferroviarius (Reply 15):
many Scandinavians, possibly the majority of the electorates, when being faced with the alternatives of either paying the losses or giving up SAS, will reluctantly accept the former.

The EC may disagree. At an absurd extreme breaking EU Competition Law could require Denmark and Sweden to leave the EU. Most unlikely, but . . .

Quoting downtown273 (Reply 29):
Of course not everyone pays those fares, but if the flights are 100% full it means that there is demand.

Consider another absurd extreme. You cannot sell any tickets so you give them away and fly with full aircraft and have 100 per cent full aircraft but no revenue. Has it been done? Well, on a limited scale, sort of:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © J.Laporte

After the First Gulf War and for one day only, 23 April 1991, in what they called "The World's Biggest Offer", BA gave away every single ticket - Concorde included - on its worldwide network coupled to a totally free return ticket on the day chosen by the successful applicants. But that was just to give their business a much needed boost following the decline in business because of the war.

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 47):
Just who was it ... Carlzon?

I remember the SK service levels during Jan Calzon's days back in the mid/late 1980s. Hugely impressive. He saved them then . . .

Ferroviarius · Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:34 pm

Quoting sweair (Reply 27):
Will people in Scandinavia even notice if SK goes?

In Norway: NO!
In Sweden: YES!
In Denmark: YES!

Why? Because SAS still offeres "something better than Eco for a higher price" and there are upper classes in Sweden and Denmark, who are willing to pay for that. There is also an upper class in Norway, but there the term is defined in matters of money, only. In Sweden and Denmark you still have "real" upper classes, whether they are rich or not.

"De hater fjøset i Norge, men det finnes folk som elsker det andre steder i Norden."

Best,
Ferroviarius

CF-CPI · Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:37 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 57):
I remember the SK service levels during Jan Calzon's days back in the mid/late 1980s. Hugely impressive. He saved them then . . .

So I'm told. It was considered a prime example of a company reorganizing itself and 'getting its act together'. I would be curious to know if some of his concepts have been lost by the current or recent management, and if re-application could help save the airline again. Of course it is now 30 years since Carlzon had come on board, and life is a bit different.

Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 51):
To add to the SK collection, the first Airbus A320-200 will arrive shortly.

Good news, I was hoping for one. I expect an order for the Boeing 737-900 any day now. Let's not forget the A318 to supplement the CRJ900s. Back to reality: you had earlier mentioned the MD-87, and I thought you were joking, but did locate some nice pics and footage of the last MD-87 service from LHR, from this year. I did also locate some pics of the DC-9-50, some of which made it into the Carlzon scheme, but it seems the -21 and -41s were the really major SAS DC-9s. I saw a -30 cargo, not sure if any pax models were flown. I was surprised to see -21 pics from as late as 2000.

LN-KGL · Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:53 pm

CF-CPI, SAS started the DC-9 story with the -30 (leased from Swissair), so they had them too. In the late 90s they also leased a number of DC-9-81s from Swissair (old dial versions - the MD81/82s to SAS had glass cockpit). They even had some few BAC 1-11 leased from British Eagle (one of them had even SAS colours - G-ATPL) between 1967 and 1968. And the fun doesn't stops there. Fokker F.27 Friendship also flew for SAS - from 1984 until it was being replaced with Fokker 50s. Since we are talking about Fokker, the F.28 Fellowship also made a stint at SAS (came in with the Linjeflyg merger). I almost forgot, the Sud Aviation Caravelle - the first jet plane in the SAS fleet.

sweair · Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:06 pm

In the news today, Norway says no to more money for SK, they have to show that they can make a profit on their own, IMO a wise politician at last! I hope the Swedish politicians can say no too, no more tax money into this loss making machine please!

kyrone · Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:52 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 57):
Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 47):
Just who was it ... Carlzon?

I remember the SK service levels during Jan Calzon's days back in the mid/late 1980s. Hugely impressive. He saved them then . . .

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 59):
Quoting VV701 (Reply 57):
I remember the SK service levels during Jan Calzon's days back in the mid/late 1980s. Hugely impressive. He saved them then . . .

So I'm told. It was considered a prime example of a company reorganizing itself and 'getting its act together'. I would be curious to know if some of his concepts have been lost by the current or recent management, and if re-application could help save the airline again. Of course it is now 30 years since Carlzon had come on board, and life is a bit different.

My understanding is that Carlzon breathed a new vitality into the company, however many of the overly generous work rules date from his time.

Ultimately, when it became time to tighten the belt a few notches, it was hard to do as staff were used to 'having the cake and eating it too"

Does SAS long haul still have three in the cockpit? In SEA, unless I'm wrong, their overnights were two-three nights and they had a few rental cars..... Do the crew stay at top notch hotels downtown.. or reasonable ones near the airport??

Work rules that support that..... are too much.

okobjorn · Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:44 am

The Swedish stock exchange suspended all trade with SAS shares this morning due to the rumours that the Scandinavian governments will not be bailing out SAS again. SAS promises news soon.
Article (in Danish only): http://borsen.dk/nyheder/investor/ar...el_med_sas-aktien_suspenderet.html

Hope to see some good (and sustainable) news from SAS soon...

sweair · Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:55 am

SK has made a loss the last 3 years in a row and will make a loss this year as well, running out of taxpayers money again.

There has to be a point when we say OK, we gave you 10 years to fix your problems, you have clearly fubared your chance to make it, bye bye, take care and see you later.

If they find private investors willing to take the risk, great but please end the tax payer bailouts! There is no justification to keep SK alive anymore, other airlines are willing to fill the need if there is a need and it is financially viable. Maybe the rural areas are a waste to serve with airlines?! Move elsewhere or go by car/bus whatever!

co38 · Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:48 am

Quoting okobjorn (Reply 63):
The Swedish stock exchange suspended all trade with SAS shares this morning due to the rumours that the Scandinavian governments will not be bailing out SAS again.

I bet there will be issued a statement that SK will sell WF (Im guessing the WF employees + one or two external investors will be the buyers)

WF has reportedly had a profit of NOK750mill (€100mill) over the last 5 years, so there goes SK cash cow...

CPHFF · Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:26 am

Well, they REALLY need to pull a rabbit out of the hat this time.

With 3 State owners (+ a few private), that has to negotiate with 36 different Unions, it is hard to take drastic actions.

IMHO, splitting SK in to 3 seperate entities whould be the best Options (SAS Danmark, SAS Sverige, SAS Norge), and then let the stocks trade separetely in Copenhagen, Oslo and Stockholm. They can still utilize their great connectivity at the major Scandinavian hubs, but income/costs to be kept independent in each Company.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Ps. I had no idea that there were so many SAS-haters on A.Net.......

Per

LN-KGL · Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:33 am

SAS has released the Q3 results ten days earlier than planned to try to stop the speculation flood the last days. The EBT for Q3 was +568 MSEK and with that the EBT for the nine first months this year will have an EBT of -193 MSEK.
Source: http://feed.ne.cision.com/wpyfs/00/00/00/00/00/1C/14/7C/wkr0006.pdf

CF-CPI · Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting kyrone (Reply 62):
Does SAS long haul still have three in the cockpit? In SEA, unless I'm wrong, their overnights were two-three nights and they had a few rental cars..... Do the crew stay at top notch hotels downtown.. or reasonable ones near the airport??

If this is the case, it does seem out of step with typical work rules these days. I am just surprised that the company bleeds red ink, and these details are not put under scrutiny. I have been posting about the varied fleet within SAS, and I would think someone with even one year of business school (or business SENSE) could see the enormous cost associated with training and maintenance of a fleet that has redundancy and overlap.

kyrone · Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:02 pm

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 68):
If this is the case, it does seem out of step with typical work rules these days. I am just surprised that the company bleeds red ink, and these details are not put under scrutiny. I have been posting about the varied fleet within SAS, and I would think someone with even one year of business school (or business SENSE) could see the enormous cost associated with training and maintenance of a fleet that has redundancy and overlap.

It was the case as of a few years ago (around SEA closing) and to my knowledge longhaul crews do still stay at rather swanky (eg pricey) downtown hotels.

I could go on and on about how they bleed money for unnecessary things, and dont focus well on areas where they can make money... but honestly... management from the station level on up really arent pro-active or have their own agendas.

They are supposed to be trying to reduce the complexity of their fleet as it either requires additional staff or alot of cross training to be able to efficiently utilize crew.

SAS managment is like a heir who received all of mommy and daddys millions, partied it up, and woke up to dry accounts one morning as he didnt pay attention to his spending and is now up s*** creek, minus the paddle.

kyrone · Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting CPHFF (Reply 66):
Ps. I had no idea that there were so many SAS-haters on A.Net.......

I dont think its hate..... Just extreme disappointment at seeing an iconic Scandinavian brand flop around like a fish out of water.

I think alot of Americans felt similar to seeing the downfall of the icon that was Pan Am. (not that im comparing the two companies, just the feeling of disappointment at where they went/going)

sweair · Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:48 pm

I hate waste of my tax money that´s all. I don't go to work to have others waste what I earn. Those who defend SK must be either employees, stock owners or red blood socialists?

They have fumbled for how many years? Enough is enough IMO, this is not play school!

Mortyman · Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting CPHFF (Reply 66):
splitting SK in to 3 seperate entities whould be the best Options (SAS Danmark, SAS Sverige, SAS Norge

SAS has been seperated in 4 before. It has only in the last few year come back to being one again. When SAS was SAS Norway ( SAS Braathens ), SAS Sweden, SAS Denmark and SAS Longhaul, the boss of SAS Norway ( SAS Braathens ) wanted to seperate from the rest of SAS, because SAS Norway was together with the longhaul part the only part of SAS that earned money and Norwegians was so fed up with using SAS Norway's surpluss to pay for SAS Sweden and SAS Denmark losses instead of investments for Norwegians ( longhaul from Norway for instance ). The wish for SAS Norway to seperate from the rest of SAS was presented twice. Both of the Norwegian bosses that presented the wish to the SAS board, was fired. Naturally, the mother company did'nt like the idea of letting one of their few cashcows go.

Scandinavian Airlines Really Close To Bankruptcy

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RE: Scandinavian Airlines Really Close To Bankruptcy

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