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Viscount724
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BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:29 am

I note that as of yesterday, only one of BA's 2 daily all-J class A318s from LCY to JFK will be pre-clearing US cusoms/immigration during the SNN fuel stop. Only the first flight, BA001, will now be doing that. Passengers on the 2nd flight, BA003, will now have to clear on arrival at JFK.

The change is apparently due to a cutback in the opening hours of the US pre-clearance facility at SNN, presumably as part of U.S. government budget cuts.

I wonder if this will have much impact on BA's traffic on that flight, as they will lose what I assume was considered a major advantage of the LCY-JFK product? Assume passengers on BA003 will now remain on board during the SNN fuel stop.

Following excerpt from the BA website:

Arriving at New York JFK

Clearing US immigration at Shannon means that you bypass US Immigration and Customs at JFK.* Simply follow the signs to exit the airport, collecting any bags you have checked in from the domestic baggage hall on the way and head straight into New York.

*From 28 October 2012 this service will be available on flight BA001 only.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:51 am

Just goes to show that we're feeling the pain too when it comes to the global recession...and now it's gonna be more up front and public rather than behind the scenes.
 
skipness1E
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:56 am

It's funny that on some days, BA003 might account for 20-30% of their business and yet they want to close early. How about working a split day?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
I wonder if this will have much impact on BA's traffic on that flight, as they will lose what I assume was considered a major advantage of the LCY-JFK product?

Assuming that BA/USCIS provides some sort of dedicated immigration line setup at JFK, I don't know that the time difference will be that great, especially for those who check bags.
 
cedarjet
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:49 am

Shame, the timings on BA 003 are more useful for a full-ish day in London. The only BA 001 I've ever taken went nonstop from LHR.
 
davidho1985
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:49 am

If the yield of BA003 is really good,
why not BA just to bear the extra cost (eg. OT) for US Immigration???
 
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Vasu
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:06 am

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 5):

Good point - but are BA allowed to do that?
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 5):
If the yield of BA003 is really good,
why not BA just to bear the extra cost (eg. OT) for US Immigration???

They can always route through DUB, I would assume. I bet DUB would be open later (though most US flights out of DUB are morning flights - can someone confirm?).
 
SKAirbus
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:18 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 7):
They can always route through DUB, I would assume. I bet DUB would be open later (though most US flights out of DUB are morning flights - can someone confirm?).

I was just going to suggest this. Maybe one of the flights can clear through DUB or even both? Obviously being a busier airport, this can provide additional difficulties. Also, the SNN route is a little more direct.
 
blueflyer
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:43 pm

Quoting vasu (Reply 6):
Good point - but are BA allowed to do that?

Not directly.
It might be possible for SNN to become a User Fee Airport (basically, the airport pays US Customs & Borders Protection to provide the service) but this is strictly an agreement between an airport and the agency. If airlines are ultimately supposed to pay for the service, that is a separate agreement by the airport and the carriers, the agency isn't involved.

The key word, however, is "might." While there are plenty of User Fee Airports around the US, I am not aware of one overseas, and I am not even sure a foreign airport could legally be designated a User Fee Airport. My understanding of the process is it starts with a request from the governor of the state the airport is in...
 
FoxBravo
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:43 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 7):
They can always route through DUB, I would assume. I bet DUB would be open later (though most US flights out of DUB are morning flights - can someone confirm?).

DUB pre-clearance also closes around midday. The afternoon EI flight to JFK, for example, clears US immigration and customs on arrival.
 
by738
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
Assuming that BA/USCIS provides some sort of dedicated immigration line setup at JFK

I think that is the point, they don't, hence the loss of advantage at SNN
 
trintocan
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:22 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):

I wonder if this will have much impact on BA's traffic on that flight, as they will lose what I assume was considered a major advantage of the LCY-JFK product? Assume passengers on BA003 will now remain on board during the SNN fuel stop.

The other thing to remember is that on the way back the flight (BA 004) is still going to LCY with its proximity to the City and its swift deplaning and clearance procedures. As such, the loss of the US Preclearance, while a blow to the (westbound) service, may still be outweighed by the other merits and thus the flight should survive.

Trintocan.
 
AussieItaliano
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):

The change is apparently due to a cutback in the opening hours of the US pre-clearance facility at SNN, presumably as part of U.S. government budget cuts.

It baffles me that the SNN US pre-clearance station is still operational. It must be fairly expensive to employ USCIS inspectors at an airport located so far from the US, and is it really worth it considering that SNN now has so few flights to the US?

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 10):
DUB pre-clearance also closes around midday. The afternoon EI flight to JFK, for example, clears US immigration and customs on arrival.

I wish I had a full-time job where I could be done by midday! 
Quoting trintocan (Reply 12):
the loss of the US Preclearance, while a blow to the (westbound) service, may still be outweighed by the other merits and thus the flight should survive.

I hope so, but the SNN stop no longer has any value for the passenger. It's dead time. These LCY-JFK flights can't make it non-stop going west, so there has to be a stop somewhere within range of LCY to refuel. BA was previously able to make that stop worthwhile for the passenger, but can't do so now.

It appears that BA will either have to:

A. Change the departure time of BA 003 so that it can still use SNN for pre-clearance. Of course, this means that the business traveller will no longer have the choice of the later departure.

B. Dedicate a customs and immigration queue at JFK for LCY arrivals (much to the chagrin of F and J class passengers on flights arriving from LHR).

C. Nothing, and hope that the convenience of LCY is still enough to make that flight a better option for the business traveller than going nonstop from LHR.

Of course BA 004 will be unaffected, so passengers wanting a later JFK-LCY nonstop can still take it. Perhaps we may see more passengers flying LHR-JFK-LCY on a return ticket????
 
shilenb
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:55 am

Forgive me for asking but why can't the US authorities open a pre-clearance station at LCY?
 
Viscount724
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:01 am

Quoting shilenb (Reply 14):
Forgive me for asking but why can't the US authorities open a pre-clearance station at LCY?

Can't see how it could be cost-justified for a maximum of 64 passengers a day.
 
blueflyer
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:26 am

Quoting shilenb (Reply 14):
Forgive me for asking but why can't the US authorities open a pre-clearance station at LCY?

If they were to open one in the UK, I'd venture LHR is a far more logical choice. In fact, I do wonder why there is one at DUB or SNN but not LHR...
 
Cubsrule
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:32 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 16):
In fact, I do wonder why there is one at DUB or SNN but not LHR...

Ireland has had immigration preclearance for years due to vast number of denials of entry ex-Ireland. Customs preclearance was an outgrowth of that. There's no similar history in the United Kingdom.
 
EI564
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:38 am

Quoting by738 (Reply 11):
DUB pre-clearance also closes around midday. The afternoon EI flight to JFK, for example, clears US immigration and customs on arrival.

I think the Dublin one closes at 1 or 2pm. I wonder what happens next year when Aer Lingus operates 3 flights around 4pm from Dublin.
 
jumpjets
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:19 am

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 13):
B. Dedicate a customs and immigration queue at JFK for LCY arrivals (much to the chagrin of F and J class passengers on flights arriving from LHR).

Presumably if they were to go down the route of a dedicated customs/immigration queue they would cover all BA arrivals and not just the arrivals from LCY as they all arrive, as far as I know at T7.
 
vv701
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:07 pm

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 13):
I hope so, but the SNN stop no longer has any value for the passenger. It's dead time. These LCY-JFK flights can't make it non-stop going west, so there has to be a stop somewhere within range of LCY to refuel. BA was previously able to make that stop worthwhile for the passenger, but can't do so now.

An initial BA proposal was to make the refueling stop on the west bound flights at GLA. So whereas the closure of pre-clearence at SNN is undoubtedly a blow it may not be fatal.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 16):
If they were to open one in the UK, I'd venture LHR is a far more logical choice. In fact, I do wonder why there is one at DUB or SNN but not LHR...
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
There's no similar history in the United Kingdom.

Back in the early 1990s - I cannot recall precisely when - I cleared US Customs and immigration in LHR T4 while travelling on a BA LHR-JFK flight. The US immigration desks were just airside on the right side of the exit from the security area. That service did not last very long. However there ids just a possibility it might be reinstated at LHR or even LCY.

Here is an extract from a UK DoT document dated July this year:

"2.36 Outside of the EU, the US remains the single most popular market for air services from the UK, with some 17 million terminal passengers at a number of UK airports flying to and from the US.

"The US authorities provide immigration, customs and agricultural pre-clearance facilities at 15 airports outside the US, including at Dublin and Shannon Airports in Ireland. These facilities, operated by US Customs and Border Protection (CBP), allow passengers travelling to the US to clear US arrival checks before departure, allowing the flights carrying those passengers to arrive in the US at domestic terminals instead of international terminals, and pre-cleared passengers to pass through airports on arrival without further inspection.

"2.37 The decision on whether to operate such facilities at airports overseas ultimately rests with the US authorities. However, the Government believes that US pre-clearance at UK airports could offer significant passenger benefits and improve the overall end-to-end journey experience for passengers flying from the UK to the US, whilst at the same time maintaining passenger security and a secure border, which are shared US and UK priorities.

"2.38 Accordingly, the Government will consider, with the US authorities and interested stakeholders in the UK, the feasibility of such facilities being made available in the UK, including the practical and legal issues that would need to be addressed."

The full document can be found at:

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/consultatio...raft-aviation-policy-framework.pdf
 
Cubsrule
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:13 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 20):
Here is an extract from a UK DoT document dated July this year:

That's good to see, and thanks for the correction on the history. There are practical concerns at both LHR and LCY, though. At LCY, it's tough to justify pre-clearance for just 64 passengers per day. Pre-clearance at LHR makes sense, but it would require a radical adjustment to the terminal assignments. They could probably justify one facility at T-5 (AA and BA?) and another somewhere else for VS and the remaining US carriers. The question, though, is which terminal that "somewhere else" would be.
 
vv701
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):
At LCY, it's tough to justify pre-clearance for just 64 passengers per day. Pre-clearance at LHR makes sense, but it would require a radical adjustment to the terminal assignments.

A possible solution here is to make the passenger pay through the cost of his or her ticket. So if BA decided that there was value at having pre-clearence ay LCY and/or LHR T5 or VS wanted it for their passengers at LHR T3 or CO at LHR T4 then the airlines could pay for the service and charge the cost to their customers through the ticket price.

In effect this additional service would be little different (in terms of differentiation of services) than an airline choosing to offer its passengers F Class suites or J Class lie-flat beds in competition with a non-suite or non-lie-flat airline.

It might seem problematic if one airline offered a pre-clearence service from a specific terminal and a competitor operating from the same same terminal chose not to offer a similar service. But it is not unknown for different airlines operating between the same terminals on the same route to offer differing levels of service - for example in departure lounge or arrival facilities - to competitively differentiate their product offering. Indeed a single operator might choose to offer the service on some flights and not others even if those flights were to a single destination.

However in the case of pre-clearence if their is a perceived advantage for the authorities, such as the screening out of unwanted passengers before their de[parture for rather than after therir arrival in the USA, the aquhorities might require a comprehensive system.
 
neveragain
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:17 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
Ireland has had immigration preclearance for years due to vast number of denials of entry ex-Ireland. Customs preclearance was an outgrowth of that. There's no similar history in the United Kingdom.

Interesting.

Are there data or statistics on the number of passengers arriving at US airports by origin country and the corresponding number of passengers denied entry by country? What would make the number or percentage of denials from Ireland materially more than from other major EU countries (e.g., UK, Germany, etc)? The only thing I can think of are historic linkages to IRA-related terrorism, but that is purely a wild guess and I don't have any facts to support it.
 
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AmricanShamrok
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 13):
It baffles me that the SNN US pre-clearance station is still operational. It must be fairly expensive to employ USCIS inspectors at an airport located so far from the US, and is it really worth it considering that SNN now has so few flights to the US?

The US immigration authorities have had a presence at Shannon since 1986; if it was an inefficient or non-useful service they would have closed it, not expanded it to include customs clearance and private aircraft clearance in 2009. Let's not forget SNN has a higher number of nonstop US flights than many larger airports/cities around Europe. In the summer, all the following commercial flights will benefit from the preclearance station here:

BA3 (LCY-JFK) A318
DL123 (SNN-JFK) 757
EI111 (SNN-JFK) A332
EI135 (SNN-BOS) A332
UA25 (SNN-EWR) 757
UA67 (SNN-ORD) 757

Private aircraft flights using the preclearance has also significantly increased.
 
airbazar
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
I wonder if this will have much impact on BA's traffic on that flight,

It will be the end of it, for sure.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
Assuming that BA/USCIS provides some sort of dedicated immigration line setup at JFK, I don't know that the time difference will be that great, especially for those who check bags.

The point is you're wasting time with a fuel stop. May as well go to LHR and fly non-stop.

Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 13):
I hope so, but the SNN stop no longer has any value for the passenger. It's dead time. These LCY-JFK flights can't make it non-stop going west, so there has to be a stop somewhere within range of LCY to refuel. BA was previously able to make that stop worthwhile for the passenger, but can't do so now.

  
They said it so themselves when they launched the service, that the only thing that made these flights viable was the existence of pre-clearance at SNN.
 
neveragain
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:51 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 20):
"2.37 The decision on whether to operate such facilities at airports overseas ultimately rests with the US authorities. However, the Government believes that US pre-clearance at UK airports could offer significant passenger benefits and improve the overall end-to-end journey experience for passengers flying from the UK to the US, whilst at the same time maintaining passenger security and a secure border, which are shared US and UK priorities.

"2.38 Accordingly, the Government will consider, with the US authorities and interested stakeholders in the UK, the feasibility of such facilities being made available in the UK, including the practical and legal issues that would need to be addressed."
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):
That's good to see, and thanks for the correction on the history. There are practical concerns at both LHR and LCY, though. At LCY, it's tough to justify pre-clearance for just 64 passengers per day. Pre-clearance at LHR makes sense, but it would require a radical adjustment to the terminal assignments. They could probably justify one facility at T-5 (AA and BA?) and another somewhere else for VS and the remaining US carriers. The question, though, is which terminal that "somewhere else" would be.

It's hard to imagine a large-scale pre-clearance operation being developed by the US authorities in the UK, although I do believe a feasibility study to examine the issues, benefits, and costs is worth preparing. At airports like LHR, maximizing the number of USA-bound passengers using such a facility (or multiple facilities if spread across multple terminals) would also decrease the efficiency of the facilities. Separate departure lounges, piers, and gates would likely be required to facilitate this (or increased use of remote boarding for USA-bound passengers), none of which really would be appealing to any of the relevant stakeholders. Not sure about the specific impacts on the baggage handling, etc facilities, but suspect there would be some segregation required there as well.

From an airport perspective, this would be a reasonably large negative on the retail/duty free performance as passengers would need to be segregated into different departure lounges. If the US border was located immediately prior to the gate, staffing requirements for US authorities would inevitably be higher (or departure lounge dwell times comprimised) in order to process passengers in time for flight departure. Airports could replicate retail/duty free within the USA departure lounge, but this would drive up facility space requirements and operating costs associated with the retail outlets. I would imagine existing UK airport operators would be strongly opposed. Thinking about the major airports, one could imagine:

* LHR -- sufficient volume of passengers to support such an operation, but extremely difficult to facilitiate this across multiple terminals unless USA-bound traffic were consolidatd in one/two facilities. This of course is contrary to existing strategy of alliance-driven terminal assignments.

* LGW -- could operate all USA flights from one of the terminals (suppose there really aren't very many anymore: US, VS, BA, and charter airlines...10 daily at the most?), but would still have departure lounge issue

* LCY -- lack of passenger volumes

* MAN -- same as LGW

Of course I have simplified the argument in this post, ignored several relevant factors, and still contend conducting a feasibility study would be worthwhile. But it is hard to imagine this making sense for anybody really, except perhaps the humble passenger.
 
neveragain
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:05 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 20):
An initial BA proposal was to make the refueling stop on the west bound flights at GLA. So whereas the closure of pre-clearence at SNN is undoubtedly a blow it may not be fatal.
Quoting airbazar (Reply 25):
It will be the end of it, for sure.

For sure? I don't agree. And not if you believe VV701, whose thoughts as quoted above seem perfectly reasonable to me. Loss of SNN pre-clearance for this flight is a negative, but there are still lingering benefits of BA003 to the passenger:

* on-board product, which passengers seem to enjoy and would continue to enjoy equally
* no need to trek across central London to reach Heathrow Airport
* same swift pre-departure experience at London City Airport

Surely passengers would be able to power up electronic devices, make phone calls, etc from the cabin while on the ground at SNN? It is not as if the time spent fuelling is completely wasted for the passenger. In fact, this time spent on the ground at SNN for refuelling must be approximately equal to the extra time one would have to allow for Heathrow processing functions, +/- five minutes, no?

As a frequent business traveller using UK airports, my decision to continue taking the BA003 would be relatively unaffected by this change. Would I miss getting to skip the immigration process at JFK? Of course, no question about that. But it is still an appealing product, time competitive if originating from central/east London, and certainly not "for sure" a fatal blow.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:26 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 25):
The point is you're wasting time with a fuel stop. May as well go to LHR and fly non-stop.

You are forgetting the convenience of LCY versus LHR. The lack of pre-clearance changes the convenience equation for sure but it does not eliminate it.
 
airbazar
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting neveragain (Reply 27):

* on-board product, which passengers seem to enjoy and would continue to enjoy equally
* no need to trek across central London to reach Heathrow Airport
* same swift pre-departure experience at London City Airport

You're making a lot of assumptions, I guess only time will tell. I still think this flight will be over in less than a year.
How can the onboard product be better on the A318 than on a 777 and soon A380? You don't even have F on the A318.
You're also assuming that all passengers on this flight are right next to LCY which may or may not be true. Some may have been treking across central London to get to LCY for the priviledge of avoinding JFK immigration lines. I know I would.
 
neveragain
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
You're making a lot of assumptions, I guess only time will tell. I still think this flight will be over in less than a year.
How can the onboard product be better on the A318 than on a 777 and soon A380? You don't even have F on the A318.
You're also assuming that all passengers on this flight are right next to LCY which may or may not be true. Some may have been treking across central London to get to LCY for the priviledge of avoinding JFK immigration lines. I know I would.

Agreed, I am making some assumptions. As are you. I, for one, would not trek across central London just to avoid JFK immigration lines (and yes, I know they often can be bad).

Some will always prefer to fly a widebody aircraft (and frequently mention that whenever the transatlantic 757 conversation comes up). But given the preponderance of transatlantic 757 flights, there surely are many passengers who just don't care that much and are perfectly willing to fly a 757 across the Atlantic. As for me? I would prefer a widebody too...but only to a point when it comes to the things that are more important to me (fare, schedule, airline miles, status, ground transport convenience). And I believe there are plenty of passengers who like the feel of the smaller A318 cabin that is exclusively business class without any economy product on board at all.

But, assumptions aside, the point still stands that there are likely several factors that support the LCY-JFK nonstop flights besides just US immigration being facilitated at SNN. I find it hard -- actually, impossible -- to believe that the flight will "for sure" be cancelled thanks to this point alone, which is what you suggested in your earlier post. But no question that loss of the preclearance is a shame and a negative development for the passenger experience on BA003.
 
brilondon
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 4):
The only BA 001 I've ever taken went nonstop from LHR.

That was a Concorde flight, wasn't it? That flight number is used for the flight from LCY now.
 
blueflyer
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 22):
A possible solution here is to make the passenger pay through the cost of his or her ticket.

I estimate the fee to CBP to be about $600,000 a year for three agents at LCY. Spread over BA's two flights out of LCY, it comes out to about $35 per passenger. Not much.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 17):
There's no similar history in the United Kingdom.

Very interesting explanation. Of course pre-clearance isn't used solely where there were high numbers of entry denials.

Quoting neveragain (Reply 26):
Airports could replicate retail/duty free within the USA departure lounge, but this would drive up facility space requirements and operating costs associated with the retail outlets. I would imagine existing UK airport operators would be strongly opposed.

Not necessarily. For one thing, airport operators may see pre-clearance as a competitive advantage, not necessarily for the O/D market, but for passengers who require a connection to reach their destination in the US no matter what, being able to avoid lining up for immigration on arrival might be a factor in choosing to connect at LHR over, say FRA or CDG, thereby driving up the number of passengers in transit.

For another, while you are right to point out it would require major work to create a segregated area with its potential for inefficiency, Toronto's setup shows the segregation doesn't need to be permanent. The transborder area at Terminal 1 has several sets of movable glass walls that are used to increase or decrease the number of gates in the transborder area as necessary. Using a similar setup at LHR could see a number of gates used for flights to the US during the daytime and flights to Asia leaving in the evening.

Duplicating duty-free shops, and even an airline lounge or two, would be less inefficient as they'd be in use all day.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
Some may have been treking across central London to get to LCY for the priviledge of avoinding JFK immigration lines. I know I would.

Or merely avoiding the hassle that is going to LHR. LCY is an attractive airport because of its location and fast check-in, even from central London. For passengers flying to the US (not me, I've used LCY to Europe exclusively), pre-clearance in SNN is just an extra cherry, I would think.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:21 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
You're making a lot of assumptions, I guess only time will tell. I still think this flight will be over in less than a year. How can the onboard product be better on the A318 than on a 777 and soon A380? You don't even have F on the A318.

I'm assuming that you haven't flown on the LCY flights given your question about the on board product. Club World London City offers 32 lie-flat seats (8 rows of 2+2). It's all forward facing seating, and very comfortable. There are three toilets on board.

Three cabin crew - a more than decent ratio of crew to passengers - operate the flight. My one flight on BA001 saw the flight full, due to the cancellation of BA003 (which I'd been booked on) as a result of the aircraft being stuck in JFK following a birdstrike. Even full the service was great ("Apologies Sir, we've only the fillet steak or salmon left"). Usual Club World self-service area available during the flight, good choice of IFE on the portable devices (less weight than fixed installation).

LCY was a pleasure to use - really quick, and a dedicated passport control/security lane for the JFK flights. No lounge, but the gate area has refreshments available and seats available. I didn't get there too early, but plenty of people rolled up in the 15 minutes before we boarded.

Will the flight end? Unlikely, as the I gather loads have always been stronger on the return flights. Plus, if you end BA003 what happens to BA004 (the later departure from JFK)? You need an outbound as well as an inbound flight.

Hell, if I was BA and the ending of the pre-clearance at SNN was hitting the loads on BA003 I'd just up the number of Executive Club redemptions available on this flight and cut back on a few seats at LHR going West to compensate. There are ways and means to fill this flight if required given the total number of J class seats offered by BA (and AA) in the London - New York market.
 
neveragain
Posts: 466
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:59 pm

RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:18 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
I note that as of yesterday, only one of BA's 2 daily all-J class A318s from LCY to JFK will be pre-clearing US cusoms/immigration during the SNN fuel stop. Only the first flight, BA001, will now be doing that. Passengers on the 2nd flight, BA003, will now have to clear on arrival at JFK.

Out of curiousity, do we know whether the drawdown in opening times of the SNN US pre-clearance facility is a seasonal thing? Has it happened in past winters, only to have extended hours once the summer schedules come into effect? If so, then perhaps BA003 would be able to resume SNN preclearance come March 2013.
 
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AmricanShamrok
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting neveragain (Reply 34):
Out of curiousity, do we know whether the drawdown in opening times of the SNN US pre-clearance facility is a seasonal thing? Has it happened in past winters, only to have extended hours once the summer schedules come into effect? If so, then perhaps BA003 would be able to resume SNN preclearance come March 2013.

No, it's a long-thing thing unfortunately.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/bu...on-could-damage-business-1-4010086
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 32):
Not necessarily. For one thing, airport operators may see pre-clearance as a competitive advantage, not necessarily for the O/D market, but for passengers who require a connection to reach their destination in the US no matter what, being able to avoid lining up for immigration on arrival might be a factor in choosing to connect at LHR over, say FRA or CDG, thereby driving up the number of passengers in transit.

You hit on the exact reason why you will not see another US CBP pre-clearance facility opened anywhere else in the world. Etihad is offering to pay for a US CBP facility at AUH. Having such a facility would certainly give such a carrier a competitive advantage. This is why the proposal is being fought by the Air Line Pilot's Association and Airlines for America (the US airline industry lobby group). Given the opportunity, I'm sure all of the Gulf carriers would pay for their own facilities and they are the greatest threat to US carriers. Expect to hear more about this in the upcoming years.
 
jet72uk
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:00 pm

The loads on this route are not great. Who is now going to want an hour in Shannon aswell as clearing customs at JFK? BA003 wont last.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting jet72uk (Reply 37):
Who is now going to want an hour in Shannon aswell as clearing customs at JFK?

Perhaps folks who don't want to screw around with the LHR experience?
 
Flighty
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:12 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 2):
It's funny that on some days, BA003 might account for 20-30% of their business and yet they want to close early. How about working a split day?

The US government (and large public universities) are run for the pleasure of the staff, not the public.
 
pesit4a
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:52 pm

RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting jet72uk (Reply 37):

The stop is frequently performed in 30 minutes. If its just a gas and go, it can be even faster.
 
jfidler
Posts: 388
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:28 pm

Reading over this thread, I had another theory: Maybe pre-clearance isn't that important any more?

Global Entry is available at JFK. I know there's a $100 fee and an interview process, and it's not open to UK citizens (unless they have US green card).. but maybe most frequent travelers to the US are eligible and don't mind the hassle to initially enroll in Global Entry?

I've been a member of Global Entry for over 2 years and I always speed through the entire immigration/customs process in a matter of minutes.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:36 pm

Quoting jfidler (Reply 41):
Maybe pre-clearance isn't that important any more?

I would agree with this. I'd imagine that many passengers on these flights have Global Entry, in which case clearing on arrival at JFK is even easier than preclearance. In fact, when I fly DUB-JFK, I prefer the later EI flight since instead of having to wait in long lines at DUB (where they don't have Global Entry kiosks), I can speed through when I land.
 
BD500
Posts: 39
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:03 am

I'm surprised nobody mentionned the 5 CS100 all business class CSeries purchased by PrivatAir, I guess it is in their advantage for competiting against BA on the LCY-JFK route.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-signs-for-up-to-10-cs100s-367155/
 
neveragain
Posts: 466
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:10 am

Quoting jet72uk (Reply 37):
The loads on this route are not great. Who is now going to want an hour in Shannon aswell as clearing customs at JFK? BA003 wont last.

Ok, what an average load factor on this route? What would you consider a "great" load factor for a premium route like BA003? 75-80%? Higher?

Again, I just don't understand why sitting on a plane at SNN for 30 minutes during a fueling stop (having enjoyed a swift pre-departure experience at a smaller simpler airport like LCY) is any worse than sitting in the Galleries lounges at LHR T5 winding down the extra time at LHR (which you had to provide to ensure you made it through check-in and security on-time given it is a much larger operation) before your flight?
 
Viscount724
Topic Author
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:00 am

Quoting neveragain (Reply 44):
Again, I just don't understand why sitting on a plane at SNN for 30 minutes during a fueling stop (having enjoyed a swift pre-departure experience at a smaller simpler airport like LCY) is any worse than sitting in the Galleries lounges at LHR T5 winding down the extra time at LHR (which you had to provide to ensure you made it through check-in and security on-time given it is a much larger operation) before your flight?

Agree. The convenience of leaving from LCY would be a much bigger factor to me than having to clear U.S. formalities at JFK. Most passengers on those flights are originating from the Canary Wharf or "City" financial districts which are much closer to LCY than LHR.

Current BA schedules at around the time of BA3:

LHR-JFK 1800-2100 (BA179)
LCY-JFK 1600-2030 (BA3)

Elapsed time of BA3 is 90 minutes longer, but when you consider the time needed for the long trek across London to LHR during rush hour, and the time required to check-in, clear security and reach the gate, compared to the minimum 15-minute check-in time at LCY, the total travel time could well be faster from LCY, and certainly much less stressful.
 
Eagleboy
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RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:12 am

CBP Opening hours at SNN and DUB were 0700-1900 and 0800-1600 respectively.
With the reshuffle of personnel SNN is being reduced to closing at 1600 and DUB is keeping the same hours but with more staff. Thus the DUB facility will be able to handle more flights. (Currently 2-3 flights a day do not clear at DUB)

The new hours will only affect the later BA LCY service, all other scheduled departures from SNN are early in the day. EI are moving to T5 in JFK next March so this means all their inbound flight will pre-clear.

So the option of rerouting BA03 thru DUB still doesn't work as CBP closes at 1600. But I think the appeal of the LCY originating flight still stands. Perhaps BA could enter discussions with CBP about a dedicated lane on arrival in JFK? Similar to the exisitng Quick Connect system?
 
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AmricanShamrok
Posts: 2337
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:03 pm

RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting jfidler (Reply 41):
Global Entry is available at JFK. I know there's a $100 fee and an interview process, and it's not open to UK citizens (unless they have US green card).. but maybe most frequent travelers to the US are eligible and don't mind the hassle to initially enroll in Global Entry?

I've been a member of Global Entry for over 2 years and I always speed through the entire immigration/customs process in a matter of minutes.

Global Entry kiosks are also operational at Shannon:

Quoting neveragain (Reply 44):
Again, I just don't understand why sitting on a plane at SNN for 30 minutes during a fueling stop

As far as I know, passengers can disembark and use the special gate-side "lounge" set up by BA (the BA flights are always assigned to Gate 108).

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 46):
EI are moving to T5 in JFK next March so this means all their inbound flight will pre-clear.

This hasn't been confirmed. The EI109 flight may do what JetBlue international flights do - arrive at T4 for CBP clearance and then tow over to T5.
 
FoxBravo
Posts: 2771
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:09 pm

Quoting AmricanShamrok (Reply 47):
Global Entry kiosks are also operational at Shannon:

And in fact, subsequent to my earlier post, I've learned that they're now available at Dublin too. Which is great news--looking forward to trying them out later this month!
 
visualapproach
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:09 pm

RE: BA LCY-JFK A318 US Immigration At SNN Changes

Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:10 pm

How do the staffing arrangements work? Are the staff American or Irish? If American (which I hazard a guess they are), do they live in Ireland or they commute for a week at a time for example and stay in hotels?

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